What Lies Beneath the Oregon Zoo

0:01 It was one hundred and sixty acre poor farm and sanatorium for the mentally ill in those with infectious diseases. There were at least three cemeteries on the farm, but no records of who was laid to rest or where any of the burial plots were located. Oh good lord. Yeah, so I think pretty much the majority of the people buried there were people that were unclaimed by their family, right, probably most of the people that were living there. Yeah. Wow, I wonder why it would be haunted. Hi Caitlin, Hi Cassie. Hi, creepy people. Helly. This is p ANDW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal, in all things creepy and spooky and scary in the Pacific Northwest or the PNW. If you're nasty, if you're nice, we're the nastiest. We also do a.

1:02 Little tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight into our topic. I don't think that we'll need any for this one. It is oh dark thirty here, and I'm a little bit concerned about what recording one of Cassie's episodes this close to bedtime is going to do to me. I guess we're all gonna find out together. Yeah, I have a really really spooky one for you today. Oh great tonight. How many feet should I have up in my chair? Hmmm? Well, I'm gonna start off by telling you about my little trip to the zoo Exo, so you get a little palette cleanser before we start.

1:50 I feel like the palette cleanser is really more needed after, but I'm going to let that go. Well, we have to start with it, so sorry, it's my episode, my rule. Fine. So I went to the zoo the other day. It was Tula two, the elephant's first birthday. She's just a little thing. I mean, she's kind of big mouth compared to the bigger elephants. She's so tiny. She's so cute and little. And it was her birthday and they had special elephant ears with sprinkles and chocolate and caramel drizzle. I know you don't like the chocolate, but they had a caramel drizzle. Yeah, and then we all sang her Happy Birthday. It was the cutest fucking thing ever. Honestly, I love that for her.

2:32 I know, it was so sweet, like she was out there and like everyone was well, I couldn't really see because, fun fact, I was in a motorized scooter. Yeah, because I live in the life may or may not have broken my ankle. It's fine, but it was kind of fun rolling around the zoo with an electric scooter. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, do you even need ankles? Like I mean, I always joke out ankles, and I'm like, oh my god, now I actually have a cankle. So it was so swollen. Yeah, the swelling and at like you've sent us a couple of photos as you've been progressing through.

3:13 This and dump dates. Yeah, wowsers. She was angry. Oh yeah, now she's all bruised. She's real purple all over my foot. But we're getting better. It's fine, It's fine, Okay, Okay, I'm not just jibber jabbering about what I've been up to lately, even though I like to talk about myself. I'm man who doesn't. But the Oregon Zoo is actually our topic for today. I knew it as soon as you brought up the baby elephant and You're like, I have to talk about this first. That was like the zoo is haunted, isn't it. I mean, we'll be the judge of that. You guys can be the judge of that after I tell you what's up with the zoo. So you might not think the zoo to be a very spooky place. I don't know, but I can pretty much find out creepy shit about anything.

4:05 So here we go. Yeah, put your powers to good. Use my spooky powers. So, speaking of the elephants, in twenty thirteen, as construction had just gotten underway for the new elephant exhibit, they dug up a human skull. I'm sorry, what's this now? They dug up a human skull, and they immediately stopped and called an archaeologist, who proceeded to uncover the remains of nine people. Ah, that's too many. I didn't know this either when I did my research after, so I didn't know any of this going in, or I would have, you know, looked at the elephant exhibit a little bit differently, probably, I should say.

4:52 So. They were found to be of Western European descent, So we're not talking about like a Native American beer, which everyone you know, like, yeah talk about. Yeah, it's a bit of a trope in movies and whatnot, which is kind of sad. I know, but we're not going there today. Yeah, because boo. But this wasn't even the first time remains were found in the area, like at the zoo or just in like in the area like the Washington Park area. Okay, well that we know to be true. Well, okay, I'll tell you more about it. It's not like murderers or anything like that. But there are so who are these people? Who are these remains? While they have never been able to be identified, the history of the property is a huge clue as to who they are and why people would be buried there. In eighteen fifty four, Oregon law made local governments responsible for providing care and shelter for their poorest residents. They called them poor farms. Nice. I don't know that. I love that.

6:03 I'm gonna be honest with you. It was a nice thought. It's not my favorite. The area that is now Washington Park, which is now home to the Oregon Zoo, the International Rose Test Garden, Japanese Garden, Waite Arboreta, the World Forestry Center, all that stuff is there. Lochi Da It was one hundred and sixty acre poor farm and sanatorium for the mentally ill in those with infectious diseases. Hillside Farm had hundreds of residents from eighteen sixty eight to nineteen eleven, and after which it was moved to Edgefield, Yeah, which is now a Mcminnimum's great And that was due to Portlander's concern about the city's image and reputation because they started to get bougie. But of course, well you know.

6:55 What they did with all of those unwell people. They would have all of those polite euphemisms, you know, for all of those people, and then of course all of your histical women. Yes, yeah, you got to hide them somewhere. Seriously, did get them out of town? Man, they can't be they can't be in Portland. No, hide them away from polite society. I'm pretty sure they put a golf course in afterwards too, like before the zoo. So interesting, like let's replace the poor farm with a golf course like a country club. Seriously tell me that you're just gentrifying and being problematic without telling me.

7:38 Yeah, the residents stayed there, getting food and medical care in exchange for labor on the farm, the hope being that they could learn to be self sufficient and eventually move up in society. Although life on the farm was far from perfect. As you can imagine, it was pretty similar to places like asylums with unsanitary living conditions and possibly questionable care. But yeah, who could have seen that coming. Yeah. Also, I will say I think that it's good for people to be given a sense of purpose, and I think sometimes there are ways that programs can be put in place so that they're not exploitative. But for people to have to work the farm, to live there, and to receive care, to me, I don't know. I have to imagine, given the time, it was probably on the side of being exploitative. I have a feeling that's what you're gonna tell me.

8:43 I don't. I don't know much more information about it, to be honest, that's kind of all I know. Okay, so we'll just operate under my assumption. Then. Yeah, from what I read, it was like the thought was good. It was providing people place to live, work, and probably progressive for its time. But through a modern lens, it kind of gives maybe a little bit of ick. Yeah, and I mean they're not around anymore, so there's a reason for that. Yeah. Yeah. There were at least three cemeteries on the farm, but no records of who was laid to rest or where any of the burial plots were located. Oh good lord. Yeah, so I think pretty much the majority of the people buried there were people that were unclaimed by their family, right, probably most of the people that were living there. Yeah.

9:37 Wow, I wonder why it would be haunted spoiler alert. I have no stories of actual hauntings. Wha. I know I kind of tricked you a little bit in the beginning. But honestly, I believe it and I know that, like, I have this information now, so maybe I'm viewing things like differently, but I don't know. I've always felt a little bit weird at the zoo ooh, and I don't who knows. Maybe that's there's any other reasons for that too. Oh cool, But I would be interested to know, like if anyone has had experiences at the zoo, if anyone who works there regularly has any you know, paranormal experiences.

10:22 But I couldn't find any on the internet. That is wild. I'm gonna I'm gonna comb all of the resources and see if we can connect with somebody at the zoo. Tell us your stories, please, We want to know the uncovered remains were said to be buried in the same spot with a memorial to preserve the land's history. So they did dig them up and then they reburied them in the same area, So I guess they're still under the elephant. I don't know if they buried them like more off to the side of the elephant enclosure or actually where they found them. Okay, I wasn't able to dig up any information on that. I did.

11:06 I see what you did there. I was really like searching like for the memorials to see if there is any plaques. And like I said, it was before or I did the research after I had gone to the zoo. So yeah, next time I go to the zoo, I can like kind of look around the elephant enclosure for a plaque and maybe ask one of the They always have volunteers around that know things. Yeah, I would be so curious. But again, just doing all of the things that I feel like it's like a recipe for haunting. Like by the book, they followed the measurements, they understood the assignment and all of the instructions, and it makes sense to me, or maybe they did.

11:50 Just handle it really respectfully and the ghosts have no reason to hang around. I don't know, yeah, because that is so frequently I feel what we hear. Well. Heidi Ron, who was the director of the Better Zoo program at the time and was elected Zoo director in twenty twenty one, she said, I think the most important thing for us was treating the remains with respect. I'm going to agree, Heidi, for the next decade. Actually, yeah, just consider it a standing nomination any office, the highest in the land, if you please.

12:34 Right, Heidi, you want to run for press, let's go, just saying respect man. Respect. But there are a couple of more recent deaths that unfortunately took place at the Oregon Zoo. Oh No, fourth of July nineteen seventy, which is more recent than I was early nineteen hundreds that we were just talking about. Yeah, hey, listen, you know what, I'm the one that's good with the dates. So I'm with you. Thank you, thank you. So fourth of July nineteen seventy, Ken Bowers twenty one and Roger Adams nineteen, along with another friend, were out on the town doing what young men do on a summer holiday night, drinking and looking for shenanigans. Oh boy, some questionable choices were made. Okay, they broke into the zoo after hours, not off to a great start, but they didn't want to simply just look into the animal habitats. Oh no. Roger in particular wanted a thrill. Oh great, so he dangled himself into the grizzly bear enclosure. Oh my god, like just drunken dangling.

13:59 I just don't do it. Don't dangle. I mean, Roger, Roger, if you're gonna dangle, like, maybe maybe we consider something like cute and fluffy, Like is there a chinchilla exhibit could perhaps. Go mingle with the penguins. I don't know. Perhaps those critters are more aggressive than I'm aware of, but I'm just saying they. Also hang out with the bats, to be honest with you. Now, see that's where you lose me, because yeah, just I don't know about that. The bats are my favorite. I love to go in there and just they stink, but oh my gosh, I just love them so much.

14:43 Cool to watch, But I'm very afraid of Like, well, you know, we've all been programmed. We're supposed to be afraid of the bats, right, I don't. I'm not really afraid of them in that scenario, just because it's you know, it's an incline and I cannot and. You're not dangling it. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's really key, just in case anybody wanted us to really drive that home. Here we are dangling by it. Okay. So, after successfully pulling himself back up out of the grizzly bear enclosure, yay, what he decided to chase more adrenaline. He was not done for the night. For fuck's sake, he thought it was a lot more thrilling to dangle himself into the lion enclosure.

15:36 Yep, of course he did. Of course he did. Roger, this is why we can't have nice things. Okay, yeah, yeah, Oh my god, okay, I already listen. Here's the thing. I already didn't let myself get emotionally attached to Roger because you said the thing about the grizzly bears. But like, oh god, you maybe you maybe shouldn't shouldn't get attached, Oh god. Yeah. Okay, So let's keep moving because this is kind of it gets kind of it gets kind of hard here, okay. Okay, So as you can maybe imagine dangling himself in front of the lions didn't go as planned. It was not like the grizzly bears.

16:22 One of them started swatting at his feet, causing Roger to lose his grip and fall into the enclosure. Caesar and Siss. The lions did what wild animals do, and they attacked Roger. Okay, I really again cannot state this strongly enough. I don't love that for Roger. It sounds like a really bad time. It wasn't good. His friends watched in horror, and Bowers remembers hearing help me, Kinney. Oh I'm sure he was screaming it, but I yeah. They desperately tried to scare the lions away, but there was nothing they could do, and Roger bled out from his injuries. Fuck, that is horrific, I know. Wow, the tragedy didn't in there. An unknown gunman entered the zoo the next morning, fatally shooting both of the lions.

17:22 Okay, well, hey, I don't care for that either. That's kind of a dick move. I know. Are in this they were saying they were twin lions. I don't know if they're actually no, because they were different ages. They were just calling them the twins. But they're like a bonded pair, which like kind of the same. They were twin flames, y'all in the animal world. Yeah, Roger's family was harassed by distraught animal lovers after that, saying that Roger deserved what happened to him. Okay, well that's pretty achy to say. I know, it's really gross.

18:03 Some bad decisions were made, but nobody deserves that. Come on, yeah, why would you say that to his grieving family, even. Even if you're, oh, god, we're so gross. Roger's father's response was, I don't blame the lions, but what I don't understand is how some people can have so much compassion for animals and then turn right around and crucify human beings. I mean, I'm having a hard time coming up with truer words, my friend. I know. Oh, they were blaming Roger for like the lions getting shot. Some people actually thought the family did it had something to do with the shooting.

18:50 See, And that's really unfair too, you know. I know, I feel like we just we come into that a lot with like any of the check crime stories, where the family just whether they had something to do with it or not, they get harassed and blamed. And oh yes, no, I mean there's people going after everybody involved in a case that receives like any amount of attention. It is. I feel like in a lot of my research, that's been one of the hardest things to learn and read about is how awful people can be in a situation that is just like, what are you doing? You're just like harassing these people and for what for what? Yeah, what's that going to get you? You're not going to get like, you're not going to arrest them. You can't be a witness and core like and and in a situation where they're just like truly innocent in the situation.

19:53 But even if they weren't, like, there's just some things that like, I'm just humans are the most dangerous. Let's yeah, I forget these lions. Yeah full stop. Okay, So now I couldn't. I couldn't super confirm this. I found it in one article and then I like couldn't. There was not a lot of info about any of this, you guys, So I don't know, Caitlin, if you want to dig later be my guest. Oh boy, But about three years later, Ken Bowers apparently confessed to the shooting of the two lions and was fined twelve hundred dollars. Oh yeah, I feel like maybe that kind of tracks.

20:36 They did have quotes from him in this article, so I like kind of assume it's true. But I mean, it's either true or it's you know, a suable offense. Yeah, but they said so. They said he was caught on drug charges or something else. And then when he confessed to that, they they dropped the They didn't like charge him with the killing of the lions. They just find him for the price of the lions. Oh sure, okay. Tiger's earlier did I if I said at any point, don't I don't. I feel like I would have flagged that.

21:20 Okay, I feel like I would have flagged that because whenever you say lion. So this is like kind of a fun thing. Is like a lot of words in my brain when I hear them, when I think them, when I say them, Like there's like mental pictures And I was listening to podcasts where they were talking about like there's somebody that was talking about their experience and I forget what the like. They call it a disorder. Where you can't visualize, like you can't like visualize you can't summon like visual images in your own mind. I'm very much the opposite. They come unbidden. And if you had said tiger, I think I would have been like, I'm picturing stripes now and now I'm confused.

22:11 Right. Yeah. All of that is to say I think you nailing it. Absolutely, I hope. So wait, I'm gonna go like check my I'm like, wait, it was a lion, right, and not a tiger. Lions If they're a lions, yeah, I have. To read all again and say insert tiger, or I've to dub myself saying tiger tiger, yeah, which. Is kind of interesting. So when we went to the zoo, I went with a couple other people who just had to keep going, and I was with my mom, so we like hung out and sang Happy Birthday to the elephant.

22:51 But so the other people I was with kept going and they went to the lion cage now, which it has a lot of glass, and they like yummy snacks. They like smeared it on the glass. So the lions were like licking and jumping. I should I should use one of those for the for a video for this like post. You could see like the size of the fucking pause or just in like imagine that whacking at you and like, yeah, smuling you to death. I mean, don't, no, I don't. I refuse. Actually, that just makes me think of the video of the Wiener dog that chased after lions.

23:32 Is it real or is that AI? No? This is like it's a pretty old video. It was definitely before like AI was good enough to generate something like that for sure. Okay, So I mean, if it's fake, somebody spent like an inordinate amount of time and or money to produce that clip. So I trust no videos anymore. You're really can't. Okay, moving on, We're gonna go to a more really recent one. In twenty nineteen, Carl Stanley Ross Senior sixty two attended a summer concert at the Oregon Zoo George Clinton and Parliament Funkadelic. I don't know who either of those people are.

24:26 Sorry, I'm not super familiar with their catalog either, but it sounds funkadelic. But p yeah, Parliament Funkadelic. I think they're two different. I think George Clinton is a person and then Parliament Funkadelic is like a band. Maybe yeah, it's giving funk adel yeah, if anyone knows who they are, let me know, because I didn't google it. A friend reported him missing to Zoosieecurity at the end of the night. Two days later, he was found deceased in the empty rhino exhibit. So there was no animals in it. It was under construction at the time. Interesting, So the rhinos didn't do it? Okay, you guys, yes, please leave.

25:17 The rhinos alone. There's the horny. The Oregon Zoo said the construction site wasn't accessible, surrounded by fencing and pedestrian barriers. Well, they didn't know exactly what happened. Investigators didn't find any evidence of foul play. Interesting. Ross Seniors thought to have had some pre existing conditions, heart issues and early signs of dementia. Oh no, so he might have wandered. So those could have been a factor. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Ross Senior's family hired a private investigator and filed a lawsuit against the zoo. I mean they did not notify all staff or lock down the zoo to try to find the missing person.

26:05 Yeah, I think that's pretty important. I guess there was no record of like the missing person's report to the zoo. There was only a record of his family calling the police the next morning and then they said there was no indication he was still going to be at the zoo, So I think there was just a lot of confusion unfortunately. Yeah, that's tough. I mean you're talking about an adult man. So I would assume that, like, depending on the person, maybe there are going to be some people that assume, like, oh, he just. Took off or whatever. Yeah, but like when he's not, nobody knows where he is, like the next morning, that's like missing person worthy in their eyes.

26:54 I don't, you know, it's so hard to know. And you know, I don't know, that's tough because yeah, adults can, you know, they can come and go as they please. I would assume if they if the zoo had been made aware of a child that had been you know, somebody could not find their child, Yeah, they probably would have handled that a little bit differently, regardless of whether or not the parents had filed a missing persons report. But I mean. As a story asult's time, they always treat adults a little bit differently, and who knows. Like the friend, I have no idea how serious it sounded like. He could have just been like complaining like, hey, I can't find my friend, like you know what I mean. Yeah, maybe they just didn't think it was It's so hard to say without more details, it's hard to know, but I mean, the fact that they're filing a lawsuit tells me that, you know, there might be something there. Generally, it's hard to get a lawyer to take your case if it's completely baseless.

27:59 They also accused them of not securing the construction area properly, even though the zoo said it was secure. Yeah, that's kind of the biggest concern because they're saying it's secure, and of course the construction site that like that can certainly be tricky. You know, I've visited a lot of job sites and that that can be tricky, especially in an environment like that was so many people. But clearly it wasn't as secure as they thought. The family kind of thought like, well, you should have security guards kind of like you know, around the border of the place if that many people are going to be there. They said it wasn't really accessible by the people.

28:43 So he's somehow gotten though. So, yeah, clearly there was an inn. Given that it's an uninhabited enclosure under construction. I feel like it makes it pretty hard to say, oh, you should have security over there, because it's like, well, what are you other than just like somebody getting in there and maybe, you know, whatever dangers are inherent in that from the construction. You know, they're not going to be attacked by an animal because there are no animals, so that, I don't know. I have a hard time thinking that the zoo would be able to justify that it's expensive.

29:26 Yeah, and they had security for the concert, so it's not like they're a security list right right exactly, Like what else are you supposed to do? I don't I don't know unless something was like left open or you know, but there was no cameras in the area. Yeah, having a dedicated team for an uninhabited enclosure feels like that might be a big ask. Like the fencing, the barriers, the signage should be enough. Yeah. The zoo says, our hearts go out to the family and loved ones of Carl Ross Senior. They have experienced a tremendous loss and it is understandable that they want to know what happened. We are continuing to look for answers as well. So I mean, I'm sure they didn't.

30:12 They didn't love this, you know, like this sucks, not just that they're getting sued, like right, I don't know. I think they really do feel for the family. Yeah, I mean that's tough. I'm sure they're not happy about it for a lot of reasons. It's that's that's rough. Zoo attorneys argued that Ross Senior died from alcoholism, which caused a fall. Okay, the court actually found the Zoo to be thirty seven point five percent at fault and Ross Senior sixty two point five percent at fault, which I didn't know that they did that kind of percentage thing in the courts.

30:55 Yes, like in a criminal case, that's not really how it works. But in a civil case like this where there's the. Potential for a payout, yes, you will see sometimes and it happens a lot like in auto accidents specifically. Oh that makes sense. Yeah, I thought that was like really interesting, like very specific thirty seven point five yeah, crazy, it's. Really interesting too. There are states and I can't remember if it's North Carolina or South Carolina, but they have very specific rules about like the findings regarding percentage of fault, and it's their laws make it really really difficult for anyone seeking damages from like a personal injury or so.

31:51 I actually just I came across. I can't I think it was an article. It might have been a podcast. I listened, who knows, I absorbed like these random factoids, but yeah, it was. It was really interesting to hear them talk to people that like have sustained really serious injuries and because like the percentage of fault isn't like majority. One way or the other. It's like, oh, yeah, I don't know, it's it was. It was hard to listen to because people that like they're truly like their mobility, their livelihood, everything is impacted.

32:31 And like the way that their state's laws like work, it just makes it next to impossible for you to like get anything for pain and suffering. It's, yeah, be thankful that hopefully most I think they said the vast majority of states don't work that way. But we're looking at you. One of the Carolinas bombastics. I die. So they did rule that both parties negligence contributed to his death, but there was no payout because his percentage of fault was higher. Yeah. Carl Ross Junior says, my father was a kind and giving man who always put family and others first. That's so hard, I know.

33:28 I mean, like it was just an accident. Like, yeah, that's so hard. I mean. And that's the thing about our legal system is that so often some of these things just boiled down to like there's not going to be a satisfying conclusion or you know, like there is no justice in that situation, right, because it's like, what do you even do? Like it's just, like you said, it's an awful accident. I feel really bad for his family. I know I do too, And the same with Roger too. I mean, he was a nineteen year old kid. I know he dangled himself in the I think he was probably one hundred percent of fault for that, for breaking into the zoo. And yeah, but that doesn't make it any less sad, And that doesn't mean that he deserved to die.

34:24 No, and who has not fallen prey to the folly of youth, you know. Curiously, boys, boys will be boys? Oh my god, that was like peak boys will be boys era too. I feel like, but I think you know, some of that regardless of gender or anything like any of the other factors. It's like it's just youth. I mean, that's I cannot picture myself doing that personally. Can I picture probably multiple people that I know personally having done that at some point given the right combination of youth and liquid courage? Maybe?

35:08 Yikes? I mean you hate to think about that happening to anyone, though. Yeah, but people do all kinds of freaking things for you know, adrenaline rush, like. Shits and giggles, and it's only gotten worse with social media. I feel like, can you imagine if his like friends had been live streaming that? Dude? Yeah, devastating. It's horrific enough, but that's crazy. I know, it's wild to think about, Like so many things that like have happened in the past. You're like, what would this have been like in the era of social media?

35:50 Truly nightmare fuel? Yeah, okay, on no one, I'm saying this right now though, No one go do that and live stream please God. No, for the love of the lions, yes, don't do it, for the love of all things holy. Well, that's my story about the zoo. Like I said, I didn't find any like personal Reddit stories from hauntings at the zoo. I don't know. Maybe I'm struggling to wrap my head around that property not being haunted, and maybe maybe everybody else is just so overstimulated when they visit the zoo.

36:35 Maybe there is. I mean I would expect it to be from like people who are there after hours, like yeahs or keepers or yes, yeah, definitely like the staff. I feel like that's your best shot for really getting some good stories about hauntings. And like a lot of people, people don't talk about their paranormal experiences, and the most that we when we hear them, while we're hearing about things that are like obviously going to be haunted, like spooky old places and things like that, like the zoo, isn't really something you'd think about, No, not at all when you think about haunting.

37:17 So I think it's going to be pretty rare to find people actually talking about it unless they email us Pinabe hoatsa Homicides at gmail dot com. Please do it. I don't care if there are no stories that we could find online. That is a lot of spooky dissw. I brought my mushroom Oracle deck today because I was like, well, I don't have like a zoo themed deck. Oh, I wonder if there's a zoo that has its own tarot deck. They definitely have like decks of cards. Yeah, I should have bought one, but that's my next mission. But I figured, you know, mushrooms digging up stuff kind of fit. I feel like that.

38:04 Really, I'm into it. It tracks for me personally. Okay, So I've been sitting here shuffling thinking about all of the things I talked about. Are you gonna send me some energy as I'm choosing a cod Oh, I'm showing the camera, but we're not doing videos, so you don't need to see. It's fine. Yeah, so suck it. Okay, I'm closing my eyes. I'm digging through the deck. Ooh, we got shaggy ink cap. Oh Shaggy like a lion kind of Okay, yeah, I would say it doesn't look like a lion, but Shaggy makes me think of a lion.

38:54 I don't know, yeah it does. And it says growth slash destruction cycle, which is oh kind of interesting because there was kind of some self destructive behaviors and well. And then the story like involves death construction. It's I feel like all of these different like parts of like the different life cycles of a of a place and of people. Growth is interesting too, because that that was kind of the whole point of the poor farm, which I hate calling it that, but yeah, I guess they were called country farms to or something maybe a little nicer, but like that doesn't really describe what it is.

39:37 So yeah, I think that like growth makes me think of bbe elephant tellto. Yeah, and I got the day I was possibly going to go into you know, they had the baby elephant Lily pass away, I know, and that was very very sad. I was saved gonna kind of talk about that, but I figured it, I don't know, it might just bring down the house a little bit, but a little bit. Yeah. I finally Mom did tell me that they found a cure for the virus that she died of no way sent her body in and they were able to find a cure from that. Oh yeah, so now if it happens, you know, to any other elephants anywhere they have, they can cure it now, which is great.

40:27 That's amazing. I know, that is literally the card right there. Yeah. Oh, destruction and yet also growth and people were just like so rude. There was like people protesting after she passed away, saying that animal, like because she was in captivity, that's why she died. And like the the elephants have it out in nature too, you know, yeah, they just can't track it as well, so they right, how are they going to know how many cases are there are?

41:08 Yeah, I mean I know I can understand that people have, you know, different they have differing opinions about the ethics of domesticated animals. But my gosh, but I feel like you're losing, Like you can't see the forest for the trees because like the real tragedy there is just that the baby elephant died and it doesn't seem like it was. You know, at the fault of the zoo. So no, it just happened. But I mean, I hate to say everything happens for a reason, but. To be able to literally point to her case like her death being sort of the genesis or whatever you want to call it, the catalyst for finding a cure, I mean, shit, everything happens for a reason feels kind of appropriate there.

42:07 Yeah, And I mean my mom told me that, So I don't know, Mom, if you're info is wrong, I'm saying it on my podcast. So we are throwing you right under the bus. Mom told me no, I believe my mom. She's gonna, I swear, when she retires she's gonna volunteer at the zoo because she just like she knows everything about everything at the zoo. I love that. What a fun thing to do though. I feel like volunteering at the zoo would. Be really cool. Yeah, I know, I love it. I feel like she's got her fact straight. I mean she she's like stalks the zoo. She reads all the things. Yeah, I don't think she's about naughing correct information.

42:49 I am a staunch Stephanie defender. Yeah. Anyway, Okay, enough about my mom. Okay, so this is the copreteness com mactis. That's the scientific name. They're edible when young, white and fresh. Oh so don't eat it when they start to get black and goofy like the picture. Well, yeah, that doesn't really look appetizing, to be honest. The shaggy ink cap can be found in the grasslands and open woodlands and has various stages of growth. Initially, it begins as a white egg shape, growing into a long bell. The pale brown area at the top breaks into large scales, and in dry weather the whole cap will do this. Uh, the gills start off white and turn pink and then black. The shaggy ink cap will then disdi delic delic. What the fuck is this word?

43:51 Del deliquis it is? It's deliquest. That's how you say it. That is liquefy or self decomposed. That's yeah, in the in the actual interpretation here, I love it from the from the bottom outside edge and work its way upward, so it just starts to like liquefy. Oh, I see, like like it's like the cat that's showing the cat. Yeah, if you guys want to see the picture, go to our instagram. She's not the partiest mushroom of ever signed within a few hours just to stem with a small disc will remain. Oh that's kind of creepy because it's like that's so fast and both of the I didn't really say it with with Ross Senior, but like he was found in a pool of blood.

44:41 It's like both of these people kind of like bled out. Yeah, that's really interesting. Wow. The stem is hollow, and the stem ring will eventually become movable, often falling to the ground. Oh okay, going to the ground, which U again, both of them. Yeah, feels like it could be very applicable. In both cases. Holy shit, Wow, that feels dead on a little too on the nose with that one. Yeah. The shaggy incap is also a bioaccumulator of heavy metals, meaning it can clean up the soil and restore its pH by drawing the heavy metals up into its fruiting bote.

45:30 That's amazing. That is pretty cool. Yeah, it's like how you know trees are so important to our environment because of how they like clean the air, which is exactly how it was explained to me as a child, and my depth of understanding has not greatly increased from that point forward. But that idea true's fact. Yeah, it's fine sciencing. Trees clean the air, mushrooms clean the dirt. Done science. Okay, you ready for the actual card, meaning now give it to me. Each stage of your growth has different meanings and properties, just like the saggy Just like the shaggy ink cap, it's not saggy. Well, just like the shaggy ink cap, you go through many stages over and over again.

46:28 Just like the Earth has its seasons, Every cycle has a purpose and needs to be worked with, not against. Ah kind of reminds me how like the land can go through different stages of yes, being different things. I think of how like managing land in a modern but also like an ethical and natural way like we do, like controlled burns and things that like would occur in nature, they're naturally occurring, you know, kind of for lack of a better term, like incidents, but things that help to kind of develop and manage the environment in a way.

47:16 That's what I don't know, that's just what it made me think of. Makes me think of two like them digging up the bones and then reburying them in the same spot to kind of like preserve the history the growth of the land. I don't know, work with it, not against it. Yes, Yeah, At what stage of your evolutionary growth are you can you recognize if it's growth or destructive cycle? The shaggy INCCAP has both, and both are necessary. When you look at the destructive cycle within yourself, do you try to push it away because you think it's bad? Only if you're trying to jump dangle into lion pins?

47:56 Yeah, I feel like self destructive tendencies can be bad. I don't think that's a particularly hot take, but you know, leaning in. It's saying look at yourself and feet like is evaluate showing is bad a bad thing? Or you just learning and growing? Yeah, do you try to learn from it because it is a necessary part of growing up or learning a lesson. Not everything is bad when it is destructive, and not everything that is growth is a good thing. It's very true. I feel like this is very like some sort of riddle. Well, no, it is like riddle, it is.

48:38 But if you think about it, like there's a reason, like there's so many things that occur, like in different applications in life, right, but like the economy can't just go up, up, up, up, up and up forever. Right, that's not how it has historically worked. Yeah, I know, be great. But also like same thing with like population, and you see it in like wildlife populations where you know, as predators are eliminated, then they have to do certain things to manage like wild deer populations. Things like that.

49:18 Of a lot of complicated feelings about managing wildlife populations. But yeah, I hope that in most of those instances, people wiser and uh hopefully with a nearly equal level of empathy are managing that process in respect. Yes, when something grows or is destroyed, it must be a sustainable process or there is no balance. What can you keep in check before it grows out of control? The key here is about finding balance within both the destructive and growth cycles. Remember that not everything destructive is bad and not everything that grows as good, and vice versa.

50:05 Already said that. I'm not sure what's saying it again, but here we are. Yeah, everything has its place and purpose. Our job is to learn and grow from everything and everyone in our lives. What can you learn from this experience? A special card, indeed, with many questions to ponder. Truly though, and you know what, generally I am not big on things that just get reworded, you know, when you take the word salad and you just spin the bowl around. But I think some things bear repeating. It was really trying to drive it home there that I think. So our job is to learn and grow from everything and everyone in our lives. I feel like that totally fits the theme of all of this. Really, learn and grow.

50:54 Learn. You know, maybe you need more security or borders or tighter locks on your construction areas or yeah. It's hard because looking at this, you know, without you know We certainly don't have insider knowledge of any of these cases that you know, we sort of talked about in connection with the zoo. But it's hard to feel like you really know what is the lesson and you can kind of guess at you know what, maybe you're the takeaways, and I guess for each person, like the takeaway really could just be something so different. But that I feel like that's the whole point though, right, Yeah, But I think the important I mean the fact that it really is just driving home that you know, keep learning and developing and questioning even you know yourself to a degree, you know, why are these the choices that I'm making?

51:54 Maybe that's a fair question too, and question I mean the family hired private investigator just because they didn't. Yeah, they wanted to, they wanted want to. I don't think they quite trusted they quite trusted who was investigating it or the word of the zoo. I think it's totally fair that they file a lawsuit against them. Absolutely absolutely, And unfortunately sometimes I think that that can be the only manner of recourse, especially in a situation where like, you know, really their their aim may not have been like, oh great, We're just going to get this big payout. It really may have been more about wanting answers, and sometimes the only way to do that is to kind of pursue some sort of legal action.

52:48 Not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, but I. Will say it's not the only case, you know that I've seen like this where you know, the family really asked to be proactive in how they you know, kind of pursue answers, and you know, the action that they take to you know, to get there hopefully they have you know, something resembling closure. Now, it's so hard. I didn't really I don't think I mentioned it either. But he was a black man, so I mean, I'm a I'm sure that could have been a factor in maybe people not taking it as seriously.

53:31 I mean, we've this was pre bad Black Lives Matter, but yeah, it clearly it had been going on for years and years and years before all the protests and things, so right, I mean, I feel like they were just kind of maybe trying to stick up for him, and he should have been looked for. I can just understand given that additional context, how the family might not immediately be will to trust the official narrative without kind of you know, it's maybe it's you know, trust cautiously but verify. Yeah, that's fair.

54:13 It's funny that you bring that up, though. I know what you've gotten in the works a little bit. Yeah, not like ha ha funny. But yeah, there's just so little haha funny these days. Yeah, everyone just sing happy Birthday to an elephant and feel better. Okay, oh my god, I know enough. Well that's all I got. Okay, I know. It wasn't too spooky. No, I didn't even put my feet up. Kind of sad. It's not what I was expecting when I went into this, Like I was not expecting especially the twenty nineteen, yes one, Like I was not expecting that at all because it's so recent.

54:59 Yeah, that's pretty mind blowing. Yeah, And like I was just overlooking, like at the Rhino enclosure, you know, like so now next time I go there, I'm just gonna like think about him. And yeah, there are just so many spaces that we don't even realize and we visit and we interact, you know, with or in and it's so interesting to learn more and just kind of find this totally like unexpected level of like reverence for you know, these these events, it's like it's all part of human history.

55:40 Yeah, kind of like you were saying with the last one, the the parking lot of the country club, Like you were saying, how it was cool that you went there, but not not like cool but. Yeah, but it just yeah, it definitely gives you a different perspective because there are just so many places that you can visit without a thought and you know, sure it's not something I witnessed or something that happened even in my lifetime, but you know, to think about like that's part of it's just part of the historical makeup of the city. Yeah. Yeah, it would be interested to know to where the Lion enclosure used to be, because I don't think it's it's not the same enclosure. Yeah, I don't think.

56:29 I you know, I don't know that much about the zoo. I think probably you'd have to ask your resident expert. It's got to be different because like the seventies zoo was not the same, you know, like they've expanded and upgraded things oh so much. Yeah, for sure, that would be interesting to know. Okay, Zoo, contact us, we need to talk to you. We used to be have so many questions, Well, should we yeah, they so long. Farewell to the people. I've literally good night because we're going about after this.

57:10 Have a creepy asday. We'll see you next Thursday. Bye. Don't fucking dangle, Okay, never dangle. No, we're dangling anything here. Do you hear us men? Stop dangling, Lieutenant dangle. Oh, my gord, don't be on the side of buildings. It's rude. Oh, that's super rude. You know who you are. You're definitely not listening. Dangling motherfucker. Yeah, speaking of dangling,