A Killer in the Family Tree | Mark Dribin & Kenneth Griffin, Portland, OR

0:00 On August 11th of 2000, the Oregon State Medical Examiner's Office issued a presumptive death certificate and the homicide investigation went cold. I don't think I've ever heard of a presumptive death certificate being issued quite that quickly. But I mean, we've talked about this before. Even when a family could move forward with a presumptive death certificate, in some cases they choose to hold off. They're faced with kind of a heartbreaking and truly is a deeply personal decision in that case. And that's, you know, far from the only one they have to make. Hi, Taylin. Hi, Caitlin. This is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal, and everything spooky in the Pacific Northwest. Or, um, the PNW. If you're nasty.

0:58 I can't say anything else confidently because it'll just. Land up like last time. Everything is a question mark the rest of the day. I'm Ron Burgundy. Exactly. We also do a little tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little deeper insight into our topic. And Cassie hasn't been here since like before all of like the last couple of weeks of my like work travel, family travel. But I have, since the time that I saw her last, I have acquired two new decks. I'm realizing I should probably use one of the new ones. Ooh, okay. Yeah. I also have a souvenir on her desk that I totally forgot to give her when we came home from our second California trip. And it's on her desk. I got her something fun from the Queen Mary collection. Oh, you went to the Queen Mary? Yeah. Oh, man. Very spooky.

2:02 I cannot wait. Like, one of these next recording sessions, I'm going to have to try to, like, grab Chris and have him come in and tell you guys about the thing that happened at the pool on the Queen Mary. Okay, clickbait. I know. I want to know. I want to know. We'll chat about it. We'll chat about it. So I got a tarot deck from the Queen Mary. Oh, fun. Yeah. It's like a little teeny tiny guy. So I have two new tarot decks. So we'll use one of the new ones. Okay. Today, our story centers on two Portland disappearances, both victims with no known connection to each other or to the man who killed them. And I guess I could have been a little more mysterious and said to the person or individual that killed them. Because for all you knew, it was a lady or a rhino. But let's be real. It's always a man. Usually, yes. A circuitous investigative trail and a single DNA profile previously unidentified for years would eventually link them to each other and to their killer. This case was covered by Bloodline Detectives.

3:23 We'll link to the episode in the show notes for anyone interested in checking that out as well. And if you do watch the episode, you will likely notice a familiar face slash newly minted talking head. None other than yours truly. It's about damn time. Please don't. judge me for any of the minor aesthetic issues that occurred in my interview. What? At one point, I looked over on the screen in one of the episodes, and I think it was this one, and I was like, you can totally see part of my bra strap. Oh, please. And I was like, okay, well, it's not the end of the world. I think people are probably not as worried about that. Like, that was... a horrifying offense. I feel like when we were younger. Oh, yeah. Your bra strap show.

4:24 It was the most embarrassing thing. Yeah. And I was like, okay, it's really not that big of a deal. And like, it's only in one clip, I think, or, you know, maybe it's the whole damn time. And I'm just in denial. But I was like, it's, it's probably not the end of the world. No, things have changed. I'll wear a purple bra under a white shirt. Everything is good. Yeah. I was just like, oh, man, I just I would hate for that to be like something that like people focus on instead of like the episode itself. Unlikely. I don't know. People are so easily distracted. Well, yeah.

5:04 What are you going to do? Yeah. Don't focus on it, you guys. That's all I'll be able to focus on now when I write that, by the way. I feel like I just Barbra Streisand affected myself. A little bit, but that's okay. What are you going to do? Hey, if I didn't do it, you know. You're right. Beat him to the punch. I wouldn't be me. So, I mean, we've talked about kind of the... There's a lot of things that we've talked about. Different cool experiences that we've had because of the show. And I have to say this was kind of a... This was a pretty cool one. And... I couldn't believe it. They sent us with gifties, too, for our trouble. It's been many, many moons since then, but they sent me with a bottle of Jameson for myself and for my co-host, Cassie. And they gave us these cute little pins. This has been forever ago now, it feels like. That's so sweet. I know. And everybody that was there on the set like at the hotel where they were doing the taping, had an Irish accent.

6:15 And I was like, take me with you. Oh my gosh. Yeah. What a dream. It was incredible. It was like one of arguably the best three-hour chunks of my, I think that was at the end of the summer, last summer. In the summer, speaking of... In the summer of 1999, 42-year-old Mark Dribben lived in Portland and worked the night shift as a cargo handler for United Airlines at the Portland International Airport, or PDX, if you're nasty. According to the timeline by the Multnomah County DA's office, Mark was last seen alive on July 1st, 1999, which kind of breaks my heart. I mean, just for the fact that it's like, that's the last time he's seen alive. But also, I kept hearing the song 1999 in my head. And I was like, party life is not... I don't know why it was stuck in my head. And it's... It's like a.

7:23 He was probably anticipating Y2K and stuff. Like, yeah. I mean, things... Things were different. Things were wild. Yeah, that's sad. I can't believe people literally. I mean, I was a child, so who knows what I would have thought if I had had a fully formed brain. But I just it's so funny that people literally thought the whole world we were going to be plunged into dark into the dark ages. And I read or watched something about that, though. And apparently it was going to fuck up a lot of stuff. And people did have to work really hard to get everything updated. That's I feel like I saw like maybe I think there was like a documentary or like kind of a short form piece of content that I watched that kind of same thing. It was explaining like it wasn't that it was like this anticlimactic thing. Like it's kind of like that's how we all view it now in hindsight.

8:19 But there really was like a mad dash to like prepare. So that way systems didn't just fall apart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But to think of the apocalypse, my God. Right. What about now? But you didn't think it would look like this, right? Yeah, it's a lot darker than I thought it would be. The next day, on July 2nd, he called into work requesting that evening off, citing a personal emergency. And that was the last that anyone heard from him. Now, contrary to what the DA's timeline says about him last being seen alive on July 1st, there are some accounts that place him at the Eagle Bar in downtown Portland on the night of July 3rd. Okay. So, not necessarily July 1st that he was last seen alive, but according to the official Multnomah County DA timeline, that's what they have.

9:22 Even though... Literally in the documentary, you have people talking about, you know, investigators that went and interviewed people that had been at the bar that night. The Eagle Bar also have to say it is no longer there. Also, not to be confused with the White Eagle. Okay. Were the people that said they saw him friends of his or people that knew him or just kind of, oh, I saw a guy that matched that description? You know, it sounds like maybe not necessarily people that knew him super well, but it was definitely a bar where there would have been regulars and they may not have known him super well, but he may have been somebody that they would have recognized. And it sounds like, you know, if you have a few accounts, it kind of lends some credence. But then again, maybe that's part of why it's not on the official timeline. I'm not really sure. which is so frustrating. Yeah. A few unusual things happen after that July 3rd evening. The first was that Mark didn't show up to spend the holiday the following day, July 4th, with his family. I feel like if people just don't show up for like a holiday gathering, I mean, sure, it's not Christmas or Thanksgiving, but who knows?

10:45 Maybe these people really like take the 4th of July super seriously. I just think if somebody doesn't show up for a family gathering, though, that's like red flag number one. Yeah. I'm reporting you missing. I'm gathering your toothbrush and your hairbrush. And somebody can tell me to calm down if they want to. But good luck with that. Yeah. Unless it was a, oh, I might stop by kind of thing. Like that would definitely raise flags, even flags like Fourth of July. Right. Yeah. Because even at Fourth of July that we would have growing up, they were large events, but you still knew who to be on the lookout for. Like you would clock if someone wasn't there.

11:26 Yeah, I agree. And I do think just the impression that I got and what I gleaned from like kind of summaries of some of the different interviews and things like that that they did, it does sound like it wasn't like it was just a casual, like, oh, maybe I'll stop by. It sounds like this was kind of like a predetermined plan. It was definitely unusual that he didn't show up. Yeah. So, I mean, for what it's worth. Then on July 5th, his supervisor sends a co-worker over to Mark's house to check on him when he doesn't show up for work, which is another huge red flag.

12:07 Unless you're somebody who calls in a lot and then maybe your boss isn't doing jack shit about it when you no call, no show. But this was unusual behavior for Mark, for sure. Good supervisor. I know. We all hope that like the people that are around us in our lives would like have an awareness at least, you know. I'm not saying you have to go zero to 60 right away like I would. But, you know, show a little concern, maybe keep track and, you know, Just monitor the situation. So missing the family gathering, definitely not like him. And then neither was not showing up for work. The co-worker reported that everything seemed fine at Mark's home on the 3000 block of Northeast 137th, though he didn't actually see Mark when he stopped by. But he's like, I mean...

13:00 His front door wasn't like wide open. There weren't any broken windows. Nobody was screaming or battered and bloody that I could see. Did he knock? Did he ring the bell? You know, I have to assume that you're like at least going to try to make contact with the person. And who knows, like maybe he's just like, it's July 5th, like maybe he's hung over or something, you know? Oh, fair. But. He works a night shift, though, too. So if this guy is still hung over from the evening of 4th of July by the time his night shift on the 5th rolls around, like, maybe you should take him to a hospital. Yeah. But after the 4th of July holiday, Mark was reported missing to the Port of Portland police, which I had to go back and, like, rewind in the episode a couple of times because I was like, I'm To the port of the port of the who?

13:57 It's just too many P's. It's like a Peter picked a pepper situation. And I also like, I think it goes without saying, like, and we see them when we go to the airport. But it was like port of Portland police. Wait, so was it July 5th or July 6th that it was that he was reported officially missing? It was July 6th that he was actually reported missing. Okay. Okay. But, like, there were a lot of people checking up on him, like, and very quickly, all things considered. Like, his family, his workplace, they're all like, this isn't like him. Where the hell is Mark? Yeah. But for real, though, where the hell is Mark? Detectives who went to Mark's house found blood on the walls and signs that someone had tried to clean it up. Which is not what you want to find.

14:53 Blood matching Mark and another unknown male contributor was present because, as I've already said, it's always a man. How do they know it's male? I mean, they are able to tell if it's male or female blood in the sample. I don't think I realized that. Yeah. That's crazy. They also found a number of cigarette butts throughout his home, though Mark was a non-smoker. Hmm. Okay. I would argue something like that kind of also, you know, maybe not a full red flag. Maybe that's more of like a yellow or a beige flag. It also kind of implies that whoever was there with him was there. For a while. Right. And I think that's significant too, for sure. More were found in his Ford Explorer after it was discovered on July 18th by a patrol officer.

15:45 So that's about two weeks after he's first reported missing. It had been abandoned in the parking lot of a drug rehabilitation facility at Southeast Division and 43rd Avenue, which investigators came to understand wasn't an area he was known to have any particular reason to frequent. So it wasn't like they were like, oh, right. Remember how Mark was a patient there? Like. And he just, like, that was, like, a part of Portland that wasn't kind of part of his normal, like, social or, you know, work routine. That's pretty far out there, too. Right. Well, and the fact that you find it in the parking lot of a rehab facility is kind of also like, huh. Investigators had his vehicle towed for forensics.

16:36 From the cigarette butts, they recovered in both Mark's house and car. investigators were able to obtain a DNA profile. At the time, it was an unknown male that didn't produce a hit in CODIS, which is the combined DNA index system, if you're nasty. I knew I had if you're nasty in my notes this time. The previous time when I used it, I was ad-libbing. I knew it was going to come back around. It always does. Charlotte! Charlotte! At the time, investigators were aware that the Eagle Bar was a popular gay hangout. Whatever Mark's own orientation, and the record doesn't actually tell us, it really doesn't, police began to consider whether his murder might have stemmed from a romantic relationship or entanglement gone wrong. And in my mind...

17:36 I kind of edited this out, but in my mind, there was a little bit of a joke that I was working. It's not even my joke. It's just I recycled a joke that I kept replaying in this part. I was like, oh, it's the room spinning because of gayness. They were like, oh, he might be gay. So like, obviously, probably one of his crazed twink lovers probably killed him or something. Yeah, I was going to say, how much did this derail or how much did this keep them from exploring any other avenues? Right. I mean, fair question. One of Mark's co-workers, a gay man, briefly became a focus for investigators as they tried to piece together what happened.

18:20 The co-worker was polygraphed and that theory was eventually dismissed. But at a certain point, police had basically connected, not connected, At a certain point, police had basically collected DNA samples from literally as many people that were like six degrees of separation from him or Kevin Bacon. And they were like, all of the people that were close to him, as many samples as they could collect, and they still hadn't found a match. And obviously that co-worker didn't match. So they were like, I guess we have to look at some other theories. Okay, good. Still, Mark's family continued pushing for answers. His father participating in press conferences, and they also offered a reward. But sadly, there would be no resolution for many years. On August 11th of 2000, so this is the following summer, the Oregon State Medical Examiner's Office issued a presumptive death certificate, and the homicide investigation went cold. I don't think I've ever heard of a presumptive death certificate being issued quite that quickly. Less than a year? Well, a little more than a year. Oh, yeah.

19:40 I don't do math. August. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, we've talked about this before. Even when a family could move forward with a presumptive death certificate. in some cases they choose to hold off. I mean, that's assuming that they don't need a death certificate to be able to settle an estate or, you know, other financial affairs. Right. But I mean, Mark's family, just like any other family where it's a missing, you know, or presumed deceased, you know, loved one, they're faced with kind of a heartbreaking and truly is a deeply personal decision in that case. And that's, you know, far from the only one they have to make. Yeah, 100%.

20:25 Because part of that is like admitting slash accepting like, okay, well, there's no hope here is kind of I imagine how that would feel. I mean, I think it just it really reframes what your thoughts, emotions, your expectations have to be at that point. You know, if you're being issued a presumptive death certificate, the assumption is that this is no longer about rescuing this person. This is a recovery mission. Yeah. And then, like I said, it went cold. And I mean, very, very cold for a long, long time. So fast forward, like a lot, just press the button all the way down.

21:11 Pressing it. Nothing has actual buttons anymore. I was like, oh, I'm what am I pressing then? Yeah, I'm pressing a tape recorder or like a VCR button. And there might be people listening to this that have never seen such a gadget. So excuse my old series. Skip. Yeah. In March 2019, PPB's Cold case homicide detail reopened the case and sent the unknown DNA profile to Bodhi Technologies for forensic investigative genetic genealogy. Maybe I should have cut that sentence in half. That's a mouthful. You did that really well.

21:52 Why did they open it? I think that based on the timeline, That is when we were really starting to see how the genetic genealogy was advancing cases. The Oregon State Police Forensic Services Division then continued its own DNA analysis from the leads that Bodie developed. Eventually, genealogy pointed to the Lovrian brothers, which Lovrian love. You know, it doesn't really matter. I don't. I don't, there's one of them that I really am not fond of. I will say that. You do not love random. Yeah, I do not love random. It was Chris, Jesse, and Nicholas. They were identified after a relative used a genealogy service. I have to remind myself of that because I'm like, how'd they, I know it's a genetic genealogy case and I still have to be like, wait, how'd they, how'd they know?

22:53 Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, they didn't have his DNA, so how did they know? Because they had his relative's DNA. That's how it works. Not just a hat rack. I'm trying my best. Having been adopted, Nicholas was quickly eliminated. And then there were two. When law enforcement spoke to Jesse, he was cooperative initially, but indicated that he didn't wish to provide a DNA sample. Now, I would say, based on kind of everything that I've read and the interviews that I watched of the different law enforcement officers, I would describe him as the squeaky clean brother. And it has been said that he actually said, Jesse said that he didn't want to implicate his brother who had some previous interactions with law enforcement. By comparison. Meaning his DNA would come... Sorry, sorry, sorry. He... No, no, no. No, like you're connecting the exact dots because I'm like, well, wait, it's... Right?

24:04 So do the math, right? Because it's down to the two of them. We know it's got to be one of you two brothers. And he's basically saying, I don't want to give you my DNA because I think that'll implicate my brother. By process of elimination. Right. Yeah. Oh, God. Chris was also... the only one of the three brothers said to have lived in the area in 1999. As a result, in September 2019, Christopher Lovrian was identified as a potential or likely suspect, which feels appropriately cautious at this stage, but... Yeah. Christopher Lovrian was living on a property a short distance from the I-205 corridor. where investigators would later ask the public about unhoused people who may have crossed paths with him and then vanished. Just for super casual reasons, you guys, there's absolutely nothing to see here, underneath the bridge or elsewhere. Law enforcement also began attempting to tail him from his workplace back home. Why, you might ask? Well, I should probably first explain that unlike many other states, Oregon requires a search warrant before a suspect or person of interest trash can be collected in what local law enforcement refer to as a trash

25:36 poll in interviews about the case. Trash anywhere? I mean, not trash anywhere. And that's a very astute observation slash question, inquiry, if you will. Thank you so much. Yeah. But they can't just go and collect like your personal trash. Gotcha. So if they roll up outside your house and they try to collect your trash, they have to have a warrant for that, which I did not know. Okay. We're not the only state, but most states. I think about 35 of them, they can just take whatever they want.

26:16 You put it out on the curb, it's theirs. Their objective, presumably, to look for any opportunity to collect evidence and or continue to monitor his whereabouts. Because they were definitely feeling like, okay, maybe we'll get lucky and we'll collect something and we can get an official confirmation. Or also maybe we should keep an eye on him because what if he runs? Mm-hmm. Then something they might not have expected happens. I have to assume. It really sounds like they didn't see this one coming, if I'm being honest. Jesse placed a call to police suggesting a meeting with them alongside his brother in a public place. The meet was set at the Horse Brass Bar. On November 18, 2019, cold case detectives interviewed Chris Lovrian. At the meeting, they asked if either brother would submit to DNA collection and unfortunately both declined.

27:20 But this was something that the team had anticipated and they planned for. So there were three detectives that were stationed nearby waiting for the two brothers to leave so that they could try to collect something from the table for DNA analysis. Is that legal? It surely is. I don't know why that's the difference. I think because it's in a public place and it's also like being disposed of by like a third party, presumably. That's so interesting. Okay. Yeah. Really interesting, right? I'm like, oh God, I could nerd out on that for a while. Yeah. So they collected the glass that Chris was using during the meeting and then from the interview, I actually didn't even put this in my notes, but I believe they also collected some napkins that he had been using. Like, they were like, leave no stone unturned. Yeah. And all of that was sent to the lab and identified a preliminary match to the sample from their crime scene. Okay. Here's where it gets really interesting, though, because you're like, they got him.

28:30 I mean, kind of, but on April 16th, 2020... PPB executed a court authorized warrant for a direct sample of his DNA. And I have heard of this before, but it's like, I mean, they sat at the table and watched him. Yeah. And they collected the thing that has his DNA on it. There's still potential for contamination. I do think, you know, a confirmation, a direct sampling, if you will, is a good idea. But I was like, damn, they got How at that point, though, do you have to go get a warrant for that is, I guess, kind of more my question. But yeah, so this would compel Chris to provide a more official sample for confirmation of the DNA result. Because like I said, you know, cross-contamination of some sort is it's always a possibility. Arguably, it might even be likely. Yeah, fair. A Multnomah County grand jury indicted Lovrian for Mark Drippen's murder. On April 30th of 2020, right at the height of COVID, I was like... I feel like nothing was going on in the legal system. And you know what? I guess I was wrong because they did this damn thing. Good for them. Yeah.

29:50 Everything else was like totally stalled. It felt like. I feel like there were some things that kind of got pushed through because they're like, listen, if we don't indict him, he will be a flight risk. Yeah. That type of thing. I think sometimes they were able to get movement there. So that was after the Oregon State Police forensic scientist Janelle Moore and Detective McGuire presented information in the case, presumably the DNA evidence. In reviewing my notes, I was like, it doesn't technically say that they used the DNA evidence at the grand jury, but that's kind of nitpicky, presumably.

30:32 On the morning of May 4th, 2020, he was arrested with the assistance of U.S. Marshals in the 12,000 block of Southeast Foster Road, reportedly as the 52-year-old metal fabricator was preparing to leave for work. I'm like, Are we calling in the U.S. Marshals a lot? I really, I had so many questions about that, but I really couldn't pull at that thread. I was like, I'm almost certain that I'm not going to get answers about that, but I really want to look into that. Like when and why are we using the U.S. Marshals? Yeah. Tell me more. Was that staffing resources because of COVID?

31:13 Maybe there was like weird timing. I don't know. I don't know. I just don't think there's necessarily anything about his case and like the arrest in particular that like flags him in my mind is like, I don't picture them calling in the SWAT team. So it just, I don't know. Unless they maybe possibly tangentially linked him to other crimes or were they like, maybe this guy could. I mean, not yet. Okay. Like, is that maybe warrant the marshals? I don't know. Right. Right. I'll tell you the rest and then it'll make sense why, like, like that thought isn't a bad thought. It just, I felt like I needed like a cork board and the red string and ideally also Charlie Day. When he was arraigned in May 2020, Mark's father, Ken Driven, and his brother joined by phone and Ken thanked the Portland Police Bureau and everyone in the legal system who had brought the case to that point.

32:19 Which I'm like, I can only imagine. It's been 20 years. Almost 20 years at that point. Like, they have waited a long time. Prior to the genealogy work, police had never looked at Lovrian. He has no connection to this man. Why would they? It's kind of crazy. Yeah. It feels like, and, you know, there's obviously there are ethical considerations with genetic genealogy. I don't want to discount that. in any way. But like sometimes I get like a little in my head about it. I'm like, oh, it's so freaky. Like I'm rooting for solving cold cases where it's like, wow, they never even looked at this guy. Look at what they were able to do. But I'm like, oh, gosh, I don't know. Part of me goes, oh, scary feels like minority report. I don't know. It's not the same. But you know what I mean? Yeah. I just have so much anxiety.

33:19 Breathe. I know. I'm like, well, again. Detective Brendan McGuire stressed that genealogy only produces leads and detectives still have to build the evidentiary case themselves, which, you know, I mean, it's true. They still like it's only going to tell you that someone that matches the sample is guilty. out there like it's gonna give you like a family tree to look at and you still have to you know there's a lot of legwork that still goes from there but i would say it's a heck of a leg up chris was a convicted felon and when the detectives searched his house on may 6th they found six firearms uh so two nine millimeter pistols a 40 caliber pistol a 357 revolver and two 223 rifles. In case you were unaware, those are all illegal for him to possess as a felon. That's a big no-no. He's a no. No. So, not great. Even if he wasn't their murderer, he would probably still be in some pretty deep doo-doo. Yeah. In the living room and throughout his finished basement, he had numerous Axes, knives, swords, and other edged weapons mounted on the walls, including a samurai sword displayed on one of

34:51 the walls in its sheath. And frankly, I'm just surprised that he kept it in the sheath. Good lord. Yeah, it's kind of a lot. I feel like in every other scene of The Walking Dead... they're stumbling upon one of these basements. But I'm like, I really hope that the prevalence of them is less than we've been led to believe by TV. As a convicted felon, would he be allowed to have the samurai sword if it's like, because you know, there's those people that are truly like, they're enthusiasts. Yeah, like they're, there's like an art. Listen, this is, so dumb of me because, you know, not everything you see on TV is real, but I saw it at a very formative age. And I think it's Con Air where Nicholas Cage, like, beat somebody up so bad. And because he was like, he had such specialized training with the military, they classified his body as a deadly weapon. Oh, my God. And he was sent to prison. Yeah. That.

35:59 It doesn't sound real. Is that real? Well, yes and no. There are people that because of their specialized training, the bar is different for them, right? Because you should know what is an appropriate amount of force. Some people might say that could be said of police. Like, you know, maybe deadly isn't the jumping off point. Okay. So question. So if you're a convicted felon, but you have such training that your body is considered a, like what, what you, what did you say? Weapon or like deadly weapon, deadly weapon.

36:42 Does that mean you have, is that death sentence automatically? If you're considered a deadly weapon, you get convicted of a felony. Well, no, not necessarily. Okay. I think even in the movie, and again, you're going off of the memory of someone, I think, who was under the age of 12. And I've never seen it. Okay. Well, God. Well, I'm just like, this is getting out of my list. I now have a running list of movies that have come up in each episode I've done with you and Cassie now. Oh, my God. I don't know how well it holds up this many years later, but I will say- Again, very formative years, very formative film for me, as it turned out.

37:26 Maybe we start having a fact check episode where I just address all the things that couldn't be answered. Yeah, honestly, honestly. And then everybody can laugh at how many details they got wrong. I got wrong about Con Air, you know, that would just be a real laugh track. Okay. Well, I was just curious about the samurai sword because I don't know. I was just thinking, I'm like, I think about the people that have a shit ton of weapons, but they truly are nothing more than like admirers of the craft. Right. So my understanding of the law around, like, if you have been charged, convicted of a felony, I believed that the ban on you owning weapons only extended to firearms.

38:15 That was my understanding. And Google... says whether a convicted felon can own a samurai sword depends on state law because federal law does not explicitly ban felons from owning non-firearm weapons like swords. Okay. So it literally is just guns. Good to know. Unless your specific state has banned them from owning those, you know, additional types of weapons. Or maybe it can be written into, like, the charges or however, like, after you're released. I'm sure there's circumstances like that. Like, this person cannot own ninja stars. Yeah. I don't know. So, interesting, um, if this case had taken place in Arizona, it says, for example, in states like Arizona, possessing a samurai sword as a felon can lead to criminal charges for misconduct involving weapons. There you go. Surprising no one.

39:11 It also says, um, permissive states in other states such as Kentucky. General felon weapon restrictions apply primarily to firearms rather than medieval weaponry or swords, though storage or context such as intent to use still matters. So I guess if it was sheathed, that doesn't show an intent to use, right? Yeah. If I'm a lawyer, that's my argument, at least. Totally. In Oregon, general sword ownership, general sword ownership is widely legal. for non-felons, and state courts have treated samurai swords as dangerous or similar instruments under concealed carry or weapon statutes if carried or intended as a weapon. Felon in possession statutes in Oregon target specific types of spring or force-projected blades, but broader prohibitions on possessing dangerous or deadly weapons can still create legal risks depending on the specific terms of probation, parole, or local ordinances. So public carry versus home ownership, your jurisdiction, all of that plays a role. In case you ever wanted to.

40:26 Be with that information, what you will thank us later for providing it to you. Yeah. And just know that we only did a cursory Google search. So, you know, right. We're not liable for any. Yeah. This is not legal advice. Perhaps defer to your counsel. Yeah, definitely. That's why you paid them the retainer. You did pay their retainer, right? While in custody awaiting trial, Chris places frequent calls to his family. There was one in particular with his brother Jesse that was reviewed and flagged. Jesse was discussing liquidating Chris's assets to try to fund his defense.

41:12 Such a good brother. Chris stated he intended to Okay. He's like, you know, you don't have to try that hard. I think I'll just plea, which is unusual, I would say, probably. Maybe not what you would expect. right off the bat. Unless you're worried that a trial will reveal more shit and maybe you're... Or. You know, maybe what the evidence that they have is just so ironclad, you know, which I do think, you know, they kind of got him dead to rights in this case. But when Jesse mentioned the shed on the back end of Chris's property, Chris was adamant that he not enter the shed. He's like, nobody goes in the shed. He literally, like, they have a recording of it. No, no, no. You might say he Barbra Streisand his shed a little bit.

42:06 He sure did. Detective McGuire would receive a call from Chris's attorney within a few days stating that Chris wanted the detective to go and open up the shed. So I didn't really include this in my notes, but I do know that they were like, uh, what do you think the chances are that he... is maybe trying to play a little game of how many detectives can I blow up? Oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah. So they did. They had to kind of, you know, proceed with caution. But like, that's the scariest fucking thing ever. Like if if somebody who is in shale is like, I want you to go to this place after saying no, no, no. I don't think so. What if I had your mom go open it? Like, how would you feel about that?

42:59 Yeah, like, he's telling his brother, don't go in there. Like, whatever you do. But go ahead, cops. Maybe he was trying to, like, save his brother. Like, from, like, not even, like, bloms. Explosions, bombs. Oh, my God. If he knew, what was it? Maybe there was something bad in there. Maybe he didn't want his brother there. to look at him badly or something. I don't know. That's sus, though. There's a lot of different justifications for him not wanting his brother to go in there. And at that point, the shed wasn't really on the investigators' radar in the same way that it was after they heard that phone call, obviously. So investigators obtained a search warrant and returned to the property to search the shed. And again, I'm like, they had To get another search warrant? Yeah. It's interesting. Like, he's in custody.

43:55 Can we just have a search warrant that covers all the bases, please? Right. Like, this is on his property where, like, you believe he has, like, been, you know, living and existing as a murderer for some time. Right. So, at any rate, and again, I'm hardly the type to argue for, like, less protections for private citizens in um in this case but i'm just like god damn yeah when you look at it from that perspective it's like how do we ever solve any murders like i need a warrant to like open the left cabinet and then one for the right like yeah on may 19th detectives searched the shed which had previously been padlocked upon opening the shed they observed the smell of decomp great Which probably explains the padlock and all of the protestations about no, no, no, no, no.

44:53 Don't go in the shed and such. The plastic tote bins inside were sealed with the lids screwed on. And by that I mean literally screws had been driven into the plastic lids. Wow. Okay. So he really didn't want someone to casually open them. I feel like that's two-factor authentication for a shed, which I have not heard of. It's concerning. The remains of an African-American man were discovered in the three totes within the shed, camouflaged by a canvas duffel bag and multiple layers of heavy-duty garbage bags.

45:39 And I'm just going to say, this was not, could not be Mark Driven as a white man. At this point, they begin reviewing more recent missing persons to try to identify the additional victim. It took a couple of days, but the dismembered remains were soon confirmed as that of Kenneth Griffin, who lived off Northeast Mallory Street in Northeast Portland. The medical examiner ruled Griffin's death a homicide on May 21st after his autopsy revealed extensive trauma to his head and neck. Kenneth Griffin was last seen alive on February 1st of 2020. His mother reported him missing the following day.

46:27 So if you thought in Mark's case, it was zero to 60, like his mom knew right away, like, nope, my boy's gone. He's missing. Something's up. I don't like it. It was just like, that's so heartbreaking. That was just weeks after detectives sat across from Lovrian at the pub and mere months before the DNA warrant and indictment in the Drippen case. Griffin's brother, Charles Patton, later told the court about watching their mother's heartbreak. She died before the case concluded. Oh, that sucks so much. Oh, that's, that's so wrong. Yeah. I mean, things were headed in, you know, a positive direction. direction in terms of being able to get justice for him. Yeah. I mean, that's just so unfair.

47:17 That's not where you want to leave things. All of it's unfair. It shouldn't have happened to begin with. Yeah. On March 10th, 2021, the grand jury re-indicted Levrian on two counts of second-degree murder, one count of first-degree abuse of a corpse, and six counts of felon in possession of a firearm. So they are going to separate the trials. They're going to separate Mark from Kenneth, and then they are going to separate the firearms charges. Which is good, right? That's like... It can be situational, but ultimately it does usually give them the best chance of putting somebody who is arguably just kind of the fucking worst Just giving them like the maximum amount of time. Yeah. Because there's if you go to trial for all of these different crimes, like there's just so much more. You have to meet a certain burden, right, for each of the charges, whether they're together or separate or whatever. I just think it's really hard when they're all grouped together. Yeah.

48:29 And like worst case scenario, if he was found innocent of the murders and there were the abuse of a corpse, he definitely had the firearms as a convicted felon. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I do think separating it out in this instance, like I feel like that makes sense, especially given like the two murders being so far apart in terms of timeline. I feel like it's too much to try to tie those together. It would be different if, He was a super prolific serial killer and we're presenting, you know, a landslide of evidence. And maybe we don't get him convicted on one of however many murders. But in this case, it's like we're really just trying to get we're really just trying to get him. Yeah. But that's what it comes down to, because this is not someone that should be walking among us freely. Definitely. Circling back to the May 6th search of Lovrian's home in the attached garage. detectives found heavy-duty rubber mats near the pedestrian door of the garage. According to investigators, testing would later identify blood from Kenneth Griffin on those mats, along with two other unknown profiles. Investigators said evidence from that search, along with statements Lovrian made, suggested there are or were...

49:59 There's more. There are additional victims. Mm-hmm. That's the vibe. Detective McGuire has said investigators believed there were more than the two we know about, but law enforcement has declined to say how many or to provide additional details, and obviously they typically have good reason to hold certain information back. By the FBI's definition, two or more victims killed in separate events, Lovrian arguably already fits the description of a serial killer. Whether there are more victims is a question that so far hasn't been answered. But really, if you think about it, I'm like, especially being that these are so far apart, and let's be real, like, we know there are others. Like, he's a serial killer. Yeah. And we don't need to have any of the in-between, but these two people were killed 20 years apart. Yeah. So what are the chances that he had a super casual 20-year cooling off period. I'll tell you, they're really low.

51:09 I would say probably astronomical chances. And nobody wants that. We don't want there to be more victims, but the victims that most certainly in my mind exist, they deserve to have answers in their cases. So, yeah. Police did at one point ask for information about anyone who had been living under the I-205 bridge in southeast Portland between summer 2019 and May 2020 that may have had contact with Lefrian and, you know, maybe also was perhaps missing in the interim. And I think this kind of goes back to, sadly, unhoused individuals can in many cases disappear without anyone filing a report. So a statement that actually directly addresses that as a potential factor in an investigation.

52:04 They're saying like, we believe there are more victims, but we understand that these could be, if this is a factor in the investigation, there could be more victims that like, we just, we don't know because nobody's told us. And we like, we don't have any way unless their bodies are discovered or. This is also right at the beginning of COVID. Like, so that's also a messy ass time. Sure is. And a lot of different types of violent crime saw some spikes. And like a lot of deaths. I'm assuming the unhoused population was not immune to the mass destruction that was COVID.

52:44 Right. Like health wise. Yeah. But I mean, I just I think that, you know, the fact that they were very targeted and they were identifying that these could be some potential barriers. to us, you know, having leads in the case. And these are like some things that could present challenges to us identifying, you know, potential victims. I mean, that can have a really significant impact. And with any luck, hopefully that's drawing in, you know, additional previously unreported tips. On January 12th, 2024, ahead of his scheduled trial, Lovrian pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter. in Mark Dribben's death, reduced from second-degree murder under a negotiated agreement, and he was sentenced to 20 years. According to the Oregonian, he apologized, but also said he was entirely in protest of the proceedings. Um... Sir, how dare you? He claimed he would have won with a private lawyer and told the court it could go to hell. Mm-hmm. Um... Actually, I think we would prefer that you do. But thank you for your input. Coverage in the Oregonian, they have a headline because this is actually a direct quote from the courtroom proceedings. I've got Satan in me. Oh. So I do think it would

54:18 be apropos for, in fact, him to go to hell. But Or maybe it was like a genuine invite. It was like, hey, doors always open. I run the show down there. Come to hell, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck. Your name's on the list. And none of any of what I'm about to say hereafter is actually going to make him a more likable character in case you were worried about that. Lovrian's account is interesting. that he was dealing methamphetamines when he met Mark at an adult bookstore. He says he went home with him and woke up to unwanted advances from Mark. So I want to say this as clearly as I can. This is the uncorroborated version of events from the man who literally killed him.

55:14 And it actually echoes a very troubling potential defense strategy that is so gross, it makes me want to scream and call the Ghostbusters. It follows a familiar script, and it's typically referred to as the gay panic defense. Yep. Which has a long history of being used to shift blame to gay victims. Like, well, listen, you're just over there being all gay. And so that made me have feelings that I couldn't handle. thoughts and feelings. And I know I said this previously, but I feel like it's really important to note that reporting does not actually establish Mark's sexual orientation or in any way corroborate literally any part of Chris's iteration of this story. Now, I mean, he's hanging out in a well-known gay, you know, hangout.

56:17 Maybe he was gay. Maybe he was living... Like, it really doesn't matter, though. The potential defense, was that initiated by the lawyer? Or do you think that, in reality, Lovrian made some advances on Mark that Mark wasn't wanting? And maybe... I mean... Sorry, it's too much speculation. No, I mean, honestly, that could go any of so many different directions. And the thing is, this wasn't, like, a real defense strategy. Gotcha. There are states where I believe that to this day, our Lord and Savior 2026, where the gay panic defense is still permissible. To my knowledge, Oregon is not one of them. And now I feel as though I should be a responsible individual and confirm.

57:14 Oh, wow. Wow. Hold on. Holy shit. Yeah. Are you seeing that? That's crazy. I'll let you speak to that since that's your episode. This is your episode. Wow. I did not realize the timing of that. I assumed it dated back a little further than that. Holy... Wow. The timing of this is, like, actually insane. That's crazy. Okay, so... I mentioned... The search of his home dated back to May 6th. He was re-indicted March 2021. As luck would have it, Governor Kate Brown signed Senate Bill 704 into law on May 21st, 2021, making Oregon the 14th Jesus fucking Christ, such a small list, in the U.S. to ban the LGBTQ Q plus panic defense. Oh, wow. I mean, that that means overwhelmingly in our country, you can still just say I freaked out because someone was gay and I killed them. And that is a legal defense strategy. Oh, my God. That makes me so angry. OK, we have to move on because otherwise I never will. As part of his plea, Lovrian reportedly told prosecutors he buried Mark

58:47 on Larch Mountain, but he did not give a precise location. And there's a couple of problems with that. Number one being that there are multiple locations in this region referred to or identified as Larch Mountain in both Oregon and Washington state. great following his conviction he has refused to assist investigators any further in their attempts to locate mark's remains but remember that's probably just because he has satan in him um so i have to assume What I read was that he was really displeased with how particularly they broke out the trials. So the fact that he had three separate trials and he really didn't like that they pursued the weapons charges. In addition, he was very unhappy with being held responsible for his many, many, many crimes.

59:47 World's smallest violin. He said he drove Mark's body out to the woods. and that he would share the location with law enforcement after the trials were finished. But apparently he changed his mind. And to date, Mark's remains have not ever been recovered. My God. So literally, fuck that guy. Lovrian's trial for the killing of Kenneth Griffin ran April 8th to the 15th of 2024 before Multnomah County Circuit Judge Christopher Bromruss with Chief Deputy D.A. Kirsten Snowden and Deputy D.A. Maggie Burgess prosecuting. Lovrian largely represented himself and claimed he was being set up. Mm-hmm. To which, I mean, what is your defense? Like, I'm just picturing, like, that, like, meme of Brad Pitt. What's in the box? Like, what's in the shed? Like... Yeah. Heller. This also represented a very different story from the one he had told the grand jury when he admitted killing Kenneth Griffin. But he said it was self-defense because, I mean, you know, very unlucky man. But he does just keep finding himself in these situations where he does have to defend his life to the death. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. I know. It's wild.

1:01:20 It's wild. Before we get into Chris's account of precisely what he says happened, I wanted to share a little bit of background on this particular victim, on Kenneth Griffin. He was born in Mississippi and later moved to Portland with his mother in 1977. I believe that was in the heyday of the Portland Trailblazers, so good for him. He played football and participated in wrestling while attending Roosevelt High School. After graduation, he remained very physically active, competing in weightlifting and winning trophies for his efforts. So, muscly.

1:02:07 He had briefly experienced homelessness, but at the time of his disappearance, he was living amicably and relatively settled with roommates, by all accounts. Um, And I think the only reason why I feel like I'm very like protective of like this little nugget of like his case details is like he's a black man. And his part of the case, I feel like he's the most recent confirmed victim. And I feel like in a lot of the articles and different source material that I was reviewing, I feel like I'm really having to dig a little bit deeper for some of the details about him other than the really horrific ones. Yeah. Because those ones are really easy to find, unfortunately.

1:03:00 So this is Lovrian's account. And again, nothing corroborates it because I think he just is a fucking liar and obviously a monster. But Chris said they struck up a conversation after meeting at a bar. Kenneth was interested in some dogs that he had at the time. I think apparently he had a dog that had just had puppies. You know, spay your pets in honor of Bob. Come on. Chris stated he gave Kenneth his credit card to order the two of them some pizza. Kenneth ordered the pizza, but according to Chris, didn't return the credit card, which led to an altercation where he kicked Kenneth out of his house. Which I feel like if somebody tried to steal my credit card after I've so kindly ordered them pizza, I might have a similar response. Yeah. You know, if that were actually true. Chris continued drinking at his home and awoke some hours later to his dogs barking and realized that Kenneth had returned. Which feels like kind of a hard left turn. You already kicked him out of your house and now he's coming back, but Poor Kay. Mm-hmm.

1:04:16 For why? Just my opinion. He says that a further physical altercation occurred and he killed Kenneth. According to Chris, he shot him with a bow. Reporting indicates a crossbow, but the interviews that I saw with law enforcement indicate a compound bow. Neither would feel very good. That was before striking him with a hatchet or an axe. Apparently, it's really difficult to identify different types of similar weapons. According to the autopsy, however, no puncture wounds were identified on Kenneth's body. Which is like, so what is that?

1:04:59 Just a weird fucking flex that you're trying to say you, like, shot him with a bow, but there's literally no puncture wounds? Or, or, or, are you saying that you shot at him but made zero contact? Oh, yeah. At first I was like, oh, he's just like telling the story. He's delusional. But right. I mean, that makes sense, too. I mean, two things can be true. I don't know. Just not his story. Yeah. I just. Yeah. No, literally. It doesn't matter that part. I mean, all of it matters from the perspective of like, I feel like we owe the respect to the victim to understand what happened to them. I don't say it lightly in that respect.

1:05:44 But I feel like what's so much more important is kind of how the rest of some of this shakes out. And I feel like there are other things that matter so much more. And I don't need to understand how the worst day of somebody's life occurred and how their body was brutalized to, you know, like, yeah, that piece of it is like, that's not important to me. Yeah. Yeah. I want to show respect for them and, like, be as accurate as I can on those things. But it's just, it's heartbreaking. And it really, like, that piece of it doesn't matter. But, like, why would you lie about that? Yeah. Because I think after we do the autopsy, we're going to be able to tell. Like, that's not how this works.

1:06:27 That's not how any of this works. Chris said he left Kenneth's body there at his home for a few days. before returning and dismembering his body. And that part is the part that really bothers me. And it's like the Israel keys of it. I just feel like there's something so callous about just like leaving someone for days and then you're coming back and you're like, you're almost like treating this person as like an inanimate object. And I feel like, to me, that parallel. And I'm not saying he is, anything like israel keys in any way i certainly don't have enough to make any sort of a like real meaningful comparison but that is the part that really makes my blood run cold like there's more i think there are you know like we know that there are more than likely at least two other victims based on the blood sampling that they've done in his home.

1:07:32 To be able to just say i'll deal with it later right yeah You're used to that and you're wired a certain way. Right. I do think it speaks to a certain disposition, certain mentality that I don't ever want to understand. Yeah. For obvious reasons. A few days later, he purchased the totes and Kenneth's remains were moved out to the shed where investigators would later discover them. He said he intended to dump the totes in the river. Obviously, there is more than one river in the area, but to me, if you say that somebody in Portland is planning to dump a body in the river, I am assuming the Willamette may be the Columbia. Yeah. On April 15th, the jury convicted him of second-degree murder and first-degree abuse of a corpse, which, I mean, that feels about right. On April 26th, the judge sentenced Lovrian to life in prison with the Griffin sentences running consecutively to the driven manslaughter term.

1:08:45 So as a result, he won't be eligible to apply for parole until he has served at least 46 years. That's what that means. I feel like, and I know I'm not the only one that struggles with this, but, you know, when you say life, you know, okay, well, like, how about you just tell me the number of years? Define life. Yeah. Prosecutors told the court that by Lovrian's own grand jury testimony, he waited about three days before he began dismembering Griffin. Charles Patton, his brother, addressed the court, calling what was done to his brother an evil act and said, Kenneth's memory will live on through us. Lovrian, who had frequently proved combative throughout the proceedings, said nothing as the sentence was handed down, which is perhaps the only kindness that we could dare to dream. Mm-hmm. Though...

1:09:48 Nothing can bring their loved ones back. Hopefully the resolution, at least of the legal proceedings, brought a measure of peace to both victims' families. They have requested privacy and no media contact since the DA first announced the charges in 2021. So they have, you know, remained private. And I'm honestly surprised sometimes that we don't see more requests from victims' family members. you know, asking for like, like, please don't contact us. Like the process of your grief is, I mean, it's so complicated and it's long lasting. I'm surprised at that sometimes, but yeah. Lieutenant Chuck Rulig, the cold case supervisor said investigators discovered a letter dated in May, 2000.

1:10:42 It was from Ken Driven. So Mark's father, it had Chris Lovrian's name, two phone numbers, and if they had run his name and pulled his old address, one of them was in the 4100 block of Division. According to him, it was about 100 feet away from where Mark's car was discovered. Ken, Mark's father, said he'd found it in Mark's home and he turned it over to police in case it might prove useful in their investigation. And. Chuck Grulich, this is a direct quote. I don't know how you can say these words without your voice cracking, without, I'm going to try. This was solvable 20 years ago.

1:11:32 If someone had run that name, they would have made the connection and there would have been something to move on. Here's the thing. It's like, it's this random handwritten note that you find in someone's home. His dad's like, I have no idea who this is. I'm going to turn it over to the police. My son is missing, presumed dead. He has no idea if this has any evidentiary value. There's no way for him to know, especially back then. And they did a lot of things. I mean, they were really pushing hard to try to identify a suspect because they had a DNA profile. And they did eventually get their man through DNA. But they had his name and his phone number. And if they'd run it, they would have. He had literally lived right there.

1:12:25 But like, I'm like, if this is a video game, that letter, you're hanging on to that letter and you're following it. Like that is like, what the fuck? What the fuck? I know. I feel like this is one of those situations where I'm like, you know what? I can tell that they didn't sit on their asses and I can tell that they made a lot of efforts. Yeah. I will say this is an interesting observation about, you know, there's DNA evidence. So did we maybe let that skew our perception of other potential evidence? And I mean, my God, nobody's perfect. And, you know, I don't want to shit on these people that clearly work so hard on the case and, And they got him. They got him. Yeah.

1:13:15 A couple murders could have been saved. Right. Like, maybe some murders didn't need to happen, though. I'm just mad. I'm not blaming anyone, but I'm mad because, like, for me. I follow that letter. I don't know. It's so hard because... And you're right. With the DNA stuff, like, it's like, at a certain point, you do start to maybe see what you want to see. Or it's like, well, we have the DNA, so why would we need to, like, look at these tertiary things that, you know. And they did a ton of interviews. And, you know, they talked to so many different people. And so this one handwritten note that was in his house, like, that just didn't really have any significance at that point. It's like...

1:13:56 I have a hard time blaming them too much for how that all shook out. But at the same time, the idea that they had this information all along and were unaware is just so frustrating. And I feel like as an outsider, and I have to imagine as investigators, my God. Oh, yeah. Can you imagine? And it's a rough note. So I don't want to end on that. But I'll be honest, what I am going to end on aside from the tarot isn't really much better because the Portland police are still interested in any tips. I think for obvious reasons. We'll include contacts for the Portland Police Bureau as well as Crime Stoppers of Oregon if you believe you may have information in the case. There's a really good chance that someone out there has information for a case that they just maybe don't even realize exists. Oh, fuck.

1:14:59 I know. But I felt like, you know, this is an important one. Like I said, other than the fact that, you know, this is a case that I'd already talked about and I was excited to tell everybody that, you know, I did a thing. I was like, this is a case where there's like a very real possibility that, you know, people might have information that they should be sharing. And I can't say that there are for sure two other victims, but the fact that there are two other unknown profiles, I really hope that they get some answers for what I suspect are two more victims. Yeah. Should we tarot about it? God, please. Yeah. You're like, please. Yeah, I know.

1:15:46 You know, we started doing that because we kind of just we just we wanted to um but it's like it turns out it is a really good way for us to kind of like try to process yeah process and like kind of do our best to like end things on like a better note and yeah this is the one that i got on the queen mary so we'll use this one okay shuffle sounds Okay, so I will spread these out in front of the keyboard. So then my question is, do you have a thought about a number on a 10 keypad or on a standard size keyboard, like a letter that feels like the vibe?

1:16:40 Okay, this is a very unique way of asking this. Is it because of the size? And that's how it's like fitting. I just always spread it out in front of the keyboard. And because we're not in person, it's like an easy way for us to be like, intuitively, where do I feel like our card is? It's either JK or L. Okay. I think maybe K. Okay. I was feeling in the L. Okay. Okay. I'm going to pull the one in the K because that's in the middle. But I'm not positive. I don't know. I felt L too. But if you're feeling like it could be J, K, or L, K splits the difference. Yeah, that's true. Okay. I get very pragmatic about these things.

1:17:23 About tarot? Yes, obviously. I take it very seriously. And then also, oh my God. Okay. So can you see that at all? Three of cups. Okay, and three of cups is kind of not really what I would have expected us to draw, but I'm going to keep an open mind. Keywords are celebration, fulfillment, friendship, community, happiness, and fun. Okay, maybe we're on to something, though. It says, a positive card. It suggests you have something to celebrate, perhaps a relationship or the success of a project. If you consider three trials to be a project of sorts, the upright three says you're enjoying a good time with people you care about and admire. You think of this as the cheers card.

1:18:23 It can also indicate expressing love, inspiration, and creativity with a community of like-minded people. The common bond between you fills your cups, and brings blessings to you all. In a reading about money, the three says you can profit from a collective undertaking. It shows you reaping rewards from an investment made with other people. If the reading is about your job, the upright three assures good fortune from a group effort. You feel joyful and fulfilled with the results. It's time to celebrate your success. In a reading about love, this card can represent a marriage. It shows you celebrating your love and extending affection beyond your primary partnership to include friends, community, and kindred spirits. I mean, the fact that it's a community, like, that's part of, like, the key words. I'm going to say something. Yeah.

1:19:22 I feel like this is accidentally my card about the podcast and joining the podcast. Oh, my God. Because this is the vibe I've been having. Yeah. And I feel like it might be it. I was like, it's a three. Okay. That's so funny. Cause I was like, it's fun. It's feeling good. I'm looking at like, for me, like there's a big shift with like my life right now because of work. Cause I think this might be about us. I feel like, and I'm just hoping that that, that one part about it shows you reaping rewards. Yeah. Go ahead and say it louder. Yeah. People in the back reaping rewards. Yeah. No, that is exactly what I was thinking. And I was like, I do feel like, I mean, for obvious reasons, sometimes the cards, while there's like a tie in with like what we're actually talking about in the episode, I do feel like sometimes it's like also partially just like picking up a vibe from us because, you know, we're the ones picking the cards and such.

1:20:28 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this is funny. Okay, so there's an extra excerpt and it's just reaffirming the vibe of us, for sure. Greek mythology speaks of three goddesses of joy, charm, and beauty known as the Graces. Obviously. The Three of Cups remind us of the famous painting Primavera by the Renaissance Italian painter Sandro Botticelli. which shows these three beautiful young deities dancing together. Primavera sounds so good right now. I was, oh my God, I was like, wasn't I literally just talking about how I made a soup that's basically like a lasagna? Yeah, I've been wanting Italian ever since. Oh my God. Okay, so, all right. So I feel like the responsible thing would probably be just to see what the L word was. Yeah, I agree. Okay, that does, based on the depiction, appear to be more in line with what I might have expected. It's in the reverse.

1:21:34 I gotta say that before. Okay, let's see. Eight of Swords in reverse. But yeah, the imagery to me is definitely more fitting. So we needed both of these, obviously. The Eight of Swords. Entrapment. Self-undoing. Fear. Helplessness. bondage, denial, and deception. In many decks, the Eight of Swords shows a person bound and blindfolded, ringed by a prison of swords. Because swords represent thoughts and beliefs, this card says you've created your own prison with your ideas, and only you can free yourself. Or perhaps you can't because you belong there. Yeah.

1:22:23 So in the reverse, it says to break through the barrier you've built, you must change the way you see and do things. Sometimes this means rejecting social norms or going against the status quo. You also need to get focused and get moving. Perhaps you have your head in the clouds. The reversed eight warns you to get your affairs in order or the situation could worsen. And it did. Yeah. And rightfully so. Oh, my God. You're going to die. This is this is the beginning. We're going to go to the middle and then you're going to die. OK. OK, thanks. Great. I know. I mean, like, LOL. In a reading about money, this card says you may not be dealing forthrightly with a financial problem. If you've been putting off paying your taxes, for example, or settling a legal matter. Take care of it promptly to avoid more trouble. Sometimes this eight indicates bad advice or deception. Fucking perfect. Listen, I just, I just pull the cards. Okay. If the reading is about your job, the reversed eight tells you to stop playing the victim. You may feel persecuted, trapped, or limited in your work, but you must take responsibility for where you're at and do something about it. Unless you belong exactly where you are, which is prison. Oh my God. But

1:23:55 literally like playing the victim. Yeah. Oh, he stole my credit card. I've been framed. Yeah. Oh, he like made unwanted advances. Like genuinely playing the victim. Yeah. Yes. Oh my God. In a reading about love, you may feel tied to a person, perhaps because you're afraid to be alone or unwilling to support yourself. This card can mean you're not facing up to what's really going on. If you've been listening to someone else's advice, the time has come to listen to your inner guidance. I think it may be too late, like in this very specific instance. But if somebody else needed to hear that today, you're welcome. I mean, a literal prison of swords. Oh, I'm really glad we pulled that one. Oh, my God.

1:24:46 And swords. The samurai sword. Oh, shit. Stop. Yes. I forgot about that whole spiral three hours later. Oh, my God. Yeah. I'm glad we pulled that one. That was so perfect. Have a creepy ass day. We'll see you next Thursday. Unless you're in a prison of swords of your own making. Or buying samurai swords to hang on your creepy ass wall. I know. Seriously. Keep it in the sheath, my dude. Perfect. Hi, Taylin. Hi, Cassie. What? Hi, Caitlin.

1:25:31 I told you I'm fried. I did two episodes with just Cassie. And I was like, okay, say it confidently next time. I just went on autopilot. Jesus took the wheel and he failed me. I'm so embarrassed. I thought for a second that you could, like... I was like, is this is she on? And you guys are pranking me. I'm so sorry. Let's take that again.