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Oct. 1, 2026

Look For Me If I Don't Come Back: The Jack Family | Prince George, British Columbia

Look For Me If I Don't Come Back: The Jack Family | Prince George, British Columbia
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On the night of August 1, 1989, Ronnie Jack met a stranger at a Prince George pub who offered him and his wife Doreen jobs at a logging camp near Cluculz Lake. By 1:30 the next morning, Ronnie, Doreen, and their two sons, 9-year-old Russell and 4-year-old Ryan, had climbed into the man's dark pickup truck and driven off into the night. They were never seen again.

More than three decades later, the disappearance of the Jack family remains one of British Columbia's most haunting unsolved cases. In this episode, we walk through the timeline of that night, the RCMP composite of the bearded stranger, and the anonymous 1996 call that pointed police to a ranch that never yielded any answers. We examine the layered history of intergenerational trauma, residential-school abuse, and forced displacement that shaped the family's world long before the night they vanished. We also have a new-ish voice joining the discussion of where the case sits today – welcome Taylyn!

If you have any information about the disappearance of Ronald, Doreen, Russell, or Ryan Jack, please contact the Prince George RCMP at 250-561-3300 or Crime Stoppers anonymously at 1-800-222-8477.

Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Spreaker, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts.

WEBVTT

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Around midnight, Doreen's cousin had stopped by the house, spent

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about an hour inside with the family and the strange man,

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and then left. At approximately 1.21 a.m. on Wednesday, August 2nd,

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Ronnie called his mother, Mabel.

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In Burns Lake.

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He told her they would be gone about 10 days,

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and at the end of the call, told her, to

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look for him if he didn't come back.

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Whoa.

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So I do think there was a little bit of

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a sense of I want to believe this is on

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the up and up, but also think about the life

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experiences that these people have had.

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Hi, Cassie. Hi, Caitlin. Hi, Caitlin.

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Hi, Caitlin and Cassie.

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That was crazy.

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Perfectly in sync.

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Wow.

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It's like we practiced.

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This is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about

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true crime, the paranormal, all kinds of spooky things.

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And sometimes when we're offline, a few other things.

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You guys don't get to hear it. But you know what?

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I think that's for the better. That was quite a tangent.

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We were on there for a bit.

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Just like an hour.

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We also do a little tarot reading at the end

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of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight

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into our topic.

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Yes.

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And if you creepy people didn't notice that we have

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a third voice in the room today. So you guys

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have heard Taylin's voice before. She's not new to the pod,

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but she hasn't done like a full episode with us

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or hosted with us yet. But she's definitely done the

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majority of our social media. She's edited like our YouTube videos.

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So she's been a part of the podcast for, I don't,

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I'm bad with time. How long has it been? Like

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two years?

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Yeah. Like three years. Almost.

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I feel like I was tempted to say a decade,

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but then, you know, I.

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Haven't even known you quite that long.

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It feels like it almost just about.

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Yeah. But you might hear her voice more often coming

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in the future. So get used to Talyn, fall in

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love with her. It's kind of hard not to. And

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do you have anything you want to say about yourself, Talyn,

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to the creepy people?

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Oh my gosh. I'm a creepy person. I am a

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big fan of all things spooky. I'm so excited to

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be part of the show more in this way. This

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is like, I'm going to look forward to every Saturday

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I get to do this.

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Yay! Us too.

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I love that we were really hemming and hawing about

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how do we, what do we say?

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How, uh, hmm?

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Tail and gate.

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Okay.

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The tailing gate of it all.

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We were just going to have her show up and

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not even say anything and see if you guys noticed.

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How would they know?

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We could still do that, technically.

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She's always been here.

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Through the magic of editing.

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We just cut her out previously. She had nothing of

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importance to add, so we just cut her out of

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all the episodes.

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But she's been here, guys.

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That would be so bizarre.

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Our plans kind of changed for today. I don't I

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guess they don't need to know that.

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Well, but they did.

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And that is the truth of the matter.

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But we're actually we're still going to cover the case

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topic that we had in mind.

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All right.

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Well, do we want to just get into it? Like

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I said, yeah, plans, plans change.

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But we've still I'm actually really excited about this episode.

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Yeah.

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Oh, really?

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Okay. I'm excited to hear about it. I obviously know nothing.

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Do you remember when you mentioned this case the first

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time we were on a call like several weeks ago

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and it actually took place the same day that we

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were talking, but a different year. It was like August.

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Oh my gosh.

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It was like an August date, I believe. Right. And

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it was that same day. We were like, that is crazy.

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You are totally right. And I didn't remember that until

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you said it just now.

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That's crazy. I don't remember that.

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But the fact that we were talking about it in

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terms of like future tense.

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On that day is just.

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Yeah, that is.

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It was meant to be odd. Yeah.

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Now, I've wanted to talk about this case for a

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really long time at the risk of a spoiler right

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at the top. I'm like, this is kind of like

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the Canadian Martin family. So, oh, if you recall that

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case at all, it's, yeah, it's really interesting.

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It's kind of a head scratcher.

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And then, you know, obviously I don't cover a lot

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of light and fluffy topics, but I feel like this

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one really in particular is, it's, it's very sad.

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So, something to look forward to.

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Was the Martin family one the one with the car? Mm-hmm.

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And they were, like, going for Christmas tree or something? Mm-hmm. Yeah,

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I would say the parallel... Not cool, but cool I remembered. Sorry.

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Yes.

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Yeah. No, I mean, I was picking up what you

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were putting down.

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Okay. I would say the parallel, like, there's definitely....

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Like a parallel with like a vehicle piece of it.

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And then the fact that it's an entire family. There's

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a lot of divergence, you know, aside from those kind

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of major similarities, I guess I would say.

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But you know what?

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We could sit here and debate about that all day.

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I should probably just get into it.

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And then you'll know.

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Ronald Paul Jack or Ronnie, as those that knew and

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loved him would call him, was born March 29, 1963,

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the same year, barely a month prior to his eventual

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long-term partner that many sources refer to as his wife.

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Her name was Doreen Jack, born April 24. I just

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think it's cute they were born the exact same year,

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like a month apart. Aww.

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Yeah.

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Both were members of the Cheslada Carrier.

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Nation, an indigenous First Nation located outside the village of

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Burns Lake, British Columbia. This was 11 years after their

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entire nation was forcibly displaced in 1952 for Alkins-Kenny Dam Project.

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Okay. Sounds about right. Yeah.

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Yeah. Great.

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The Cheslado were given roughly 10 days' notice. moved to

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tents at grassy plains, watched their homes literally burned, and

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had their cemetery flooded.

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No, that's how you get ghosts.

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Don't they know that? I, you know, I think that

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must be a more modern understanding that we have of

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how the world works because they definitely seem like they

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were out of the loop on that one.

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That's awful, though. Like, 10 days.

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Yeah.

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Like, leave your home you've lived in your whole life. Mm-hmm.

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Wow. And just that cemetery flooding. Yeah. I mean, it

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seems pretty on par, but goddamn.

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It's brutal.

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Oh, gosh.

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And there's more.

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Ancestral remains still occasionally wash up along the reservoir.

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Oh. So....

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I don't know how frequently that's happening, but I feel like,

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you know, seems like a fairly natural consequence to me

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of flooding a cemetery. I don't think I'm going out

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on a limb with that one, but if somebody else

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has a better understanding of how the tides and flooded

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cemeteries work, feel free to let me know.

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Did they flood it because there was a dam, like

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it was in the dam zone or whatever?

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That's what I'm assuming.

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I didn't really pull at the thread related to the

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construction of the dam so much.

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But that's my assumption. Damn. Damn.

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Damn.

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Damn.

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Doreen, along with her sisters, endured a rough upbringing after

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being abandoned.

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By their mother.

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The girls were left with only their father, who was,

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by almost every account that I could find, it seemed.

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I hate to say this because I.

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Just feel so bad.

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I just, it's such a rough family dynamic, but the

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girls were left with only their father who was reportedly

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fully engrossed in the throes of alcohol abuse. And so

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taking care of them kind of seemed like it took

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a little bit of a backseat to say the least.

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He frequently physically abused the girls and sadly, It's also

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been said that he allowed them to suffer sexual abuse

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at the hands of others.

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Which is rough.

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I'm going to hold questions in case that comes up later,

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because if it doesn't come up later, then it's not

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relevant right now. But I'm curious about what that means exactly,

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what he allows.

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The stories basically were that their father would go out

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to the bar he'd get drunk him and his buddies

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would come home to where the kids were waiting and

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that is when those I'm struggling to come up with

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a word incidents that's when the abuse happened so it

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sounds like there had to have been some awareness on

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his part and.

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I don't know Was it coordinated by the father? I

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guess is what I'm asking.

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And I actually, I feel like that's a really valid

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question in this case. And I definitely don't have anything

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in the source material that says that like he was

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essentially more formally, you know, arranging and bringing them out.

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Yeah. That would be so, I mean, it's icky either way,

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but like, yeah. Hey, come to my house.

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Not great in any instance, obviously. I don't know how

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many other podcasts or other like documentaries are really like

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talking about like that aspect of their upbringing, because of course,

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with something that's that sensitive, a topic of, you know,

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sexual abuse of minors, that's something it's so personal.

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It's so traumatic.

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Being able to like really verify that and feel comfortable

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sharing that as like a fact of the story is

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that's so touchy. And honestly, I debated about whether or

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not that was something I wanted to include. But I

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hope that based on everything that I've researched that, you know,

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somebody wouldn't put that out there, you know, about this

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family and, and have that.

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Not be true.

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Part of me wishes that it was untrue, you know,

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but I would hate to think that anybody would be,

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you know, reporting that or reinforcing that as fact if

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it wasn't. Doreen and her sisters were sent to Lejac

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Residential School near Fraser Lake as children, where they were

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further mistreated. I think we've talked about the residential schools

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for Native children enough that people have an understanding that

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the abuse within those institutions was pretty rampant. And I

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think that's true. We've talked about it before. It's not

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just in the U.S. and Canada, although I think, you know,

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we're kind of the biggest offenders, maybe. But it happened

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elsewhere abroad.

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Awful. That's horrible.

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Like you can't even escape it. Like you're at school

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and you're getting abused. You're at home, you're getting abused.

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Right.

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Well, and those are residential schools, too, in the instance

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of like the native populations or like in the case

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of Australia. So those are children that are actually being

240
00:13:17.980 --> 00:13:22.240
forcibly taken. Often their parents, you know, they're not being

241
00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:25.600
sent there. It's not like a boarding school. They're being

242
00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:32.000
ripped from their homes and essentially whitewashed and brainwashed and

243
00:13:32.379 --> 00:13:34.340
their culture is being erased.

244
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:39.259
I'm not recalling what a residential school is specifically.

245
00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.210
So the residential schools, like as a broader term, when

246
00:13:43.230 --> 00:13:47.429
you hear that it generally refers to schools in the

247
00:13:47.769 --> 00:13:51.149
U S and Canada, where the government basically came in

248
00:13:51.210 --> 00:13:54.909
and said, your children are being taken from their homes

249
00:13:54.990 --> 00:13:59.909
on the reservation and they will go to be educated

250
00:13:59.929 --> 00:14:05.830
to like the white Western standard. So a lot of

251
00:14:05.889 --> 00:14:10.690
really abusive practices. I mean, the erasure of their culture,

252
00:14:10.750 --> 00:14:15.210
their language, their customs. They were frequently in a lot

253
00:14:15.230 --> 00:14:18.789
of the schools, they were told basically not to speak

254
00:14:18.970 --> 00:14:24.710
in their mother tongue. So that is a big part

255
00:14:24.750 --> 00:14:28.049
of why there is so much erasure of not just

256
00:14:28.169 --> 00:14:31.269
native culture, but their language specifically.

257
00:14:31.529 --> 00:14:31.750
Yes.

258
00:14:31.909 --> 00:14:34.730
Now I'm remembering the episodes in which you've talked about this,

259
00:14:34.769 --> 00:14:36.970
but I think in my brain, I just like, They're

260
00:14:37.029 --> 00:14:39.330
institutions in my brain. I don't even want to call

261
00:14:39.350 --> 00:14:39.970
them a school.

262
00:14:40.090 --> 00:14:41.000
They very much are.

263
00:14:41.049 --> 00:14:44.000
No, I mean, that's actually a really good way to

264
00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:47.720
describe them is it's in the same way that like

265
00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:51.720
at one point in history that a lot of like,

266
00:14:51.980 --> 00:14:55.970
quote unquote, mental health facilities were kind of just, you know,

267
00:14:56.149 --> 00:15:00.990
it was like this forcible situation where horrible things just

268
00:15:01.049 --> 00:15:07.220
continued to happen to like this incredibly vulnerable population. Following

269
00:15:07.269 --> 00:15:12.419
the closure of the facility in 1976, Doreen attended a

270
00:15:12.700 --> 00:15:17.220
live-in Catholic high school where she began her relationship with Ronnie.

271
00:15:18.259 --> 00:15:23.090
At age 16, Doreen gave birth to her first son, Russell,

272
00:15:23.649 --> 00:15:30.080
on February 28, 1980. Two years later, she and Ronnie

273
00:15:30.129 --> 00:15:35.549
moved in with Ronnie's parents in South Bank, B.C., Ronnie's mother,

274
00:15:35.789 --> 00:15:38.730
Mabel Jack, has said the couple appeared happy in this

275
00:15:38.809 --> 00:15:42.490
arrangement and that Ronnie treated Russell as his own son.

276
00:15:42.509 --> 00:15:49.639
Their second son, Ryan, was born July 26th of 1985.

277
00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:57.100
By the late 1980s, the family's circumstances had deteriorated significantly.

278
00:15:57.899 --> 00:16:01.490
Ronnie lost his sawmill job after a back injury. The

279
00:16:01.509 --> 00:16:06.029
family went on welfare and relocated to Prince George in

280
00:16:06.090 --> 00:16:09.889
search of work. And his mother, Mabel, later described her

281
00:16:09.929 --> 00:16:13.639
son at this time as desperate to find work.

282
00:16:14.419 --> 00:16:16.220
You got kids to take care of, man.

283
00:16:16.820 --> 00:16:17.220
Right.

284
00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:18.879
Yeah, absolutely.

285
00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:24.419
Doreen's sister has said she witnessed Ronnie strike Doreen on

286
00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:28.519
more than one occasion and that she had begun to

287
00:16:28.570 --> 00:16:29.789
drink pretty heavily.

288
00:16:29.809 --> 00:16:29.870
So.

289
00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.419
I mean, it's a picture of, you know, definitely a

290
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:40.539
worsening circumstance for everyone in the family, for sure. And

291
00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:44.500
it's important because it really informs kind of how the

292
00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:50.039
rest of their story, what we know about it, how

293
00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:50.980
that plays out.

294
00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:54.840
I feel like it kind of mirrors her childhood a

295
00:16:54.860 --> 00:17:01.000
little bit, too. Like she's now the alcoholic, still being abused.

296
00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:04.680
A pattern of multiple types of abuse.

297
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:09.829
In the weeks before their disappearance, Doreen was reportedly stealing

298
00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:14.089
cough medicine for the children, and Ronnie told Mabel that

299
00:17:14.289 --> 00:17:17.269
he was in debt to someone for an undisclosed amount

300
00:17:17.309 --> 00:17:17.609
of money.

301
00:17:17.630 --> 00:17:20.690
That's never good. Undisclosed?

302
00:17:20.970 --> 00:17:21.289
No.

303
00:17:21.309 --> 00:17:24.700
Yeah, so I mean, and who knows?

304
00:17:25.220 --> 00:17:28.009
Thinking back to, you're talking about like the late 80s,

305
00:17:28.099 --> 00:17:31.230
and so like, you know, time conversion of money. In

306
00:17:31.309 --> 00:17:33.309
any case, like that could have been a lot of money.

307
00:17:33.349 --> 00:17:36.529
It could have been a small amount. If you are

308
00:17:36.650 --> 00:17:40.930
unemployed and you're struggling to, you know, cover the expenses

309
00:17:41.029 --> 00:17:44.349
just to live, even a small amount of money can

310
00:17:44.390 --> 00:17:46.029
be so insurmountable.

311
00:17:46.589 --> 00:17:48.289
Yeah, that is true.

312
00:17:48.289 --> 00:17:49.359
100%.

313
00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:53.339
Chief Karina Lewine of the Cheslada Carrier Nation is the

314
00:17:53.380 --> 00:17:59.339
great-granddaughter of Chief Louie, whose Skachola village on Cheslada Lake

315
00:17:59.900 --> 00:18:04.430
was among those destroyed in the flooding dating back to 1952,

316
00:18:04.430 --> 00:18:10.190
the Damn Dam. In 2019, following the BC government's redress

317
00:18:10.230 --> 00:18:16.339
settlement for the displacement, she directly linked the intergenerational trauma to,

318
00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:21.940
and I quote, poverty, a high death rate, alcoholism, addiction,

319
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:25.420
and violence in the community. When it comes to the

320
00:18:25.460 --> 00:18:29.240
Jack family, this isn't a footnote. It grounds every part

321
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:36.119
of the family situation, why Doreen's parents' generation was so dysfunctional,

322
00:18:36.819 --> 00:18:41.460
why the residential school pipeline was so brutal, as well

323
00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:46.470
as Ronnie's eventual desperation to find work and support his family.

324
00:18:47.250 --> 00:18:50.329
It is truly, it's one of those cases where it's

325
00:18:50.349 --> 00:18:54.829
like at every single turn, every step, it's so much

326
00:18:54.890 --> 00:18:57.250
more dire every time we check in and.

327
00:18:59.190 --> 00:19:02.269
It's so hard. You're like, does it ever get better?

328
00:19:02.289 --> 00:19:06.250
I mean, the short answer is not not really in

329
00:19:06.289 --> 00:19:09.269
this case, but it's so hard to think about that. Like,

330
00:19:09.829 --> 00:19:13.029
this is how your life has has gone up to

331
00:19:13.069 --> 00:19:18.950
this point. Just institutional brutality and abuse at the hands

332
00:19:18.990 --> 00:19:21.519
of the people that are caring for you.

333
00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:24.319
It almost seems like a fluke that anyone ever gets

334
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:24.819
out of it.

335
00:19:25.339 --> 00:19:27.279
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

336
00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:32.119
It does begin to feel like, wow, I mean, truly

337
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:38.500
you've beaten the odds. On the night of Tuesday, August 1st, 1989,

338
00:19:38.500 --> 00:19:43.269
Ronnie visited the First Leader Pub, located approximately four blocks

339
00:19:43.509 --> 00:19:47.829
from the family's rented house at 2116 Strathcona Avenue in Prince.

340
00:19:50.059 --> 00:19:50.420
George.

341
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:55.000
He was approached by an unidentified man described as a

342
00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:59.259
bearded stranger who offered Ronnie and Doreen jobs at a

343
00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:06.359
logging camp near Placules Lake, approximately 40 kilometers. Trying that

344
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:10.690
on for size. Um, Nope, my brain hates it.

345
00:20:10.690 --> 00:20:11.269
24 miles.

346
00:20:11.289 --> 00:20:17.390
Okay. West of Prince George, along BC Highway 16. I also,

347
00:20:17.869 --> 00:20:22.920
my brain doesn't like bearded stranger. I don't necessarily have

348
00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:28.259
anything against facial hair per se, but something about the

349
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:29.640
combination of the two.

350
00:20:29.779 --> 00:20:31.539
You have things against strangers.

351
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:33.349
Yeah, that's pretty true.

352
00:20:33.569 --> 00:20:34.630
That's pretty true. Okay.

353
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:39.140
The man told Ronnie the job would last 10 days

354
00:20:39.259 --> 00:20:44.599
to two weeks, which feels like kind of six one-way

355
00:20:44.660 --> 00:20:49.299
half a dozen to me, but really neither here nor there,

356
00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:53.619
and would include work for Doreen. And because the Jack

357
00:20:53.660 --> 00:20:57.569
family didn't have their own vehicle, he offered to drive

358
00:20:57.619 --> 00:21:00.849
them to the camp that night in his four-wheel drive

359
00:21:01.069 --> 00:21:01.670
pickup truck.

360
00:21:02.329 --> 00:21:04.089
Well, he sounds like a very nice man.

361
00:21:05.779 --> 00:21:09.839
Yeah yep I'm I'm just certain this is the start

362
00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:11.339
of something good I.

363
00:21:11.299 --> 00:21:13.660
Can see them like taking the job though you know

364
00:21:13.700 --> 00:21:17.089
like they're so desperate to have something this this must

365
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:20.250
seem like oh my god this is great but I.

366
00:21:20.230 --> 00:21:24.049
Also hear I also hear that kind of ambient music

367
00:21:24.109 --> 00:21:27.190
in the background that starts to play when things aren't quite.

368
00:21:27.029 --> 00:21:31.880
Right right yeah no definitely I mean you should be

369
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:38.289
hearing kind of a I would argue, but the man

370
00:21:38.349 --> 00:21:41.769
accompanied Ronnie back to the family home and waited while

371
00:21:41.829 --> 00:21:47.109
they all packed. At 1116 p.m., Ronnie called his brother

372
00:21:47.230 --> 00:21:51.130
in South Bank, B.C. to try to arrange for their

373
00:21:51.210 --> 00:21:56.369
boys to stay with him while the pair would go

374
00:21:56.509 --> 00:21:57.450
and do the job.

375
00:21:58.269 --> 00:21:59.130
In the middle of the night?

376
00:21:59.690 --> 00:22:03.059
Yeah, I mean, he just basically was like, we need

377
00:22:03.220 --> 00:22:05.119
to send the boys to stay with you for like

378
00:22:05.180 --> 00:22:08.819
two weeks. We found some work. Can they come stay

379
00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:13.529
with you? But his brother couldn't take them. That's when

380
00:22:13.549 --> 00:22:18.529
the man upped the ante, so to speak, and offered

381
00:22:18.589 --> 00:22:21.390
to include daycare for the Jack children.

382
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:24.779
That seems like too good to be true. But also

383
00:22:24.819 --> 00:22:27.480
they're probably like so relieved, right? Right.

384
00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:30.900
I mean, there's a sense of like they, oh, OK,

385
00:22:30.940 --> 00:22:33.160
that's a relief. This is going to work out. And

386
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:36.059
then also just like this sense of desperation, like you

387
00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:37.619
want to believe that this is all.

388
00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:42.519
Going to work out. Like it cuts both ways, unfortunately.

389
00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:47.720
Around midnight, Doreen's cousin had stopped by the house, spent

390
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.940
about an hour inside with the family and the strange

391
00:22:50.980 --> 00:22:56.839
man and then left. At approximately 1.21 a.m. on Wednesday,

392
00:22:57.259 --> 00:23:01.869
August 2nd, Ronnie called his mother, Mabel, in Burns Lake.

393
00:23:02.589 --> 00:23:05.230
He told her they would be gone about 10 days

394
00:23:05.849 --> 00:23:08.170
and at the end of the call, told her to

395
00:23:09.289 --> 00:23:10.769
look for him if he didn't come back.

396
00:23:11.329 --> 00:23:12.109
Whoa.

397
00:23:12.789 --> 00:23:14.750
So I do think there was a little bit of

398
00:23:14.789 --> 00:23:17.009
a sense of, I want to believe this is on

399
00:23:17.049 --> 00:23:20.410
the up and up, but also think about the life

400
00:23:20.490 --> 00:23:22.569
experiences that these people have had.

401
00:23:23.460 --> 00:23:23.940
Yeah.

402
00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:28.000
Near the time of departure, one of Doreen's sisters passed

403
00:23:28.059 --> 00:23:31.220
by and saw the family sitting in the man's pickup outside,

404
00:23:31.869 --> 00:23:34.250
but she just decided not to interrupt.

405
00:23:34.750 --> 00:23:37.190
She's like, okay, they're like loaded up. They're getting ready

406
00:23:37.230 --> 00:23:37.630
to go.

407
00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:40.569
I'll see when they, when they get back, you know,

408
00:23:41.430 --> 00:23:45.470
at approximately 1 30 AM, the Jack family drove off

409
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:46.720
with the stranger.

410
00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:49.380
And they were never seen again.

411
00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:50.200
Hmm.

412
00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:53.619
I fucking hate that.

413
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:54.299
I know.

414
00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:56.319
I wish I had better news about that.

415
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:00.140
I write up the facts of the case, but I

416
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.859
don't actually get to determine the narrative, unfortunately.

417
00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:06.390
The kids, too.

418
00:24:06.450 --> 00:24:08.930
Like, it would be bad enough if it was just them,

419
00:24:09.049 --> 00:24:10.789
but there's also kids.

420
00:24:11.589 --> 00:24:17.049
I know. And the part that's, like, so just horrific

421
00:24:17.269 --> 00:24:19.569
is just that, you know, they were trying to find

422
00:24:19.670 --> 00:24:22.440
someone for the boys to go and stay with. And

423
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.569
when that fell through, this person clearly wanted to get

424
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:32.710
them to come with him so badly that then they

425
00:24:32.769 --> 00:24:38.299
roped in the children. And whatever has happened to the

426
00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:43.259
Jack family, you know, since this fateful night, now it

427
00:24:43.460 --> 00:24:47.980
also involves their children. The description of the man who

428
00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:52.440
offered Ronnie the job was compiled from statements by two witnesses,

429
00:24:53.220 --> 00:24:58.990
one given in 1989 and the other in 1990. The

430
00:24:58.990 --> 00:25:03.509
1989 statement almost certainly came from Doreen's cousin, who spent

431
00:25:03.670 --> 00:25:06.990
roughly an hour inside the house with the stranger and

432
00:25:07.059 --> 00:25:10.599
is the only known person to have provided a firsthand

433
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:16.390
physical description of him. this man remains the prime suspect

434
00:25:16.529 --> 00:25:19.410
in the family's disappearance, which I don't think any of

435
00:25:19.490 --> 00:25:23.819
us are surprised by that. According to the RCMP composite,

436
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:30.259
he was Caucasian, in his late 30s, between six foot.

437
00:25:29.500 --> 00:25:31.119
And six foot six.

438
00:25:31.940 --> 00:25:36.200
Dang. Wow. That's quite a range. It is.

439
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.019
And I got to say, like, if you're six feet tall,

440
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:40.799
you're tall to me.

441
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:43.529
If you are six six, Like I have to crane

442
00:25:43.589 --> 00:25:45.869
my neck to see you. Yeah.

443
00:25:46.509 --> 00:25:50.259
So... And weighed between 200 and 275 pounds.

444
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:54.380
So like a big burly lumberjack man type.

445
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:59.720
I mean, one of those height and weight ranges is

446
00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:02.369
like kind of just an average dude. But if you're

447
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:09.509
6'6 and 275, like that is a very different physical description.

448
00:26:09.569 --> 00:26:10.130
Like your frame.

449
00:26:12.130 --> 00:26:17.579
Like your silhouette looks completely different between those, you know, like.

450
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.140
Yeah.

451
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.400
I mean, I'm glad we have some information, but it

452
00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:25.819
almost feels like, I mean, that's pretty broad.

453
00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:28.920
Why is that range so large? Was he wearing like,

454
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:32.160
was he bundled up? Like why? Not that she was

455
00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:35.000
sitting there trying to memorize what this guy looked like

456
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:38.200
when she met him, but that's just such. there's such

457
00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:41.799
a difference between 275 pounds and six foot six versus

458
00:26:41.980 --> 00:26:43.559
like you said, kind of an average dude.

459
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:44.319
Yeah.

460
00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:47.099
Well, and then, I mean, the other piece of it

461
00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:50.900
is that like, it's not just a single witness account

462
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:53.269
that they're using to create this composite.

463
00:26:53.289 --> 00:26:54.029
Right.

464
00:26:54.150 --> 00:26:57.150
So if one person says, I think he was probably

465
00:26:57.150 --> 00:27:02.829
200 to 230 pounds. And then the other eyewitness is saying,

466
00:27:03.029 --> 00:27:07.910
you know, I'm thinking probably somewhere between 250 and 275.

467
00:27:07.910 --> 00:27:12.190
I mean, these are guesstimates, your eyeball in it. So

468
00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:15.319
as frustrating as it is, it's like, well, I didn't

469
00:27:15.420 --> 00:27:16.160
have a scale.

470
00:27:16.180 --> 00:27:17.960
Yeah.

471
00:27:18.420 --> 00:27:22.500
It's rough, though, because it makes it really hard to

472
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:26.339
be able to accurately, you know, kind of profile a

473
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.839
person that might be your potential perpetrator.

474
00:27:30.299 --> 00:27:31.779
That is such a broad range.

475
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:34.480
It'd be hard for me to tell how much someone weighed.

476
00:27:35.309 --> 00:27:37.390
It's hard for me to tell how much I weigh,

477
00:27:37.450 --> 00:27:43.190
and that's intentional. He had reddish brown hair worn to

478
00:27:43.210 --> 00:27:46.190
the bottom of his ears and parted on one side,

479
00:27:46.970 --> 00:27:51.170
along with a short, full beard and mustache. So, I mean,

480
00:27:51.230 --> 00:27:56.769
that feels maybe somewhat distinctive. He was wearing a ball cap,

481
00:27:56.970 --> 00:28:00.710
a red checkered work shirt. faded blue jeans, a blue

482
00:28:00.809 --> 00:28:04.650
nylon jacket, and work boots with leather fringes.

483
00:28:04.390 --> 00:28:05.150
Over the toes.

484
00:28:06.269 --> 00:28:10.549
His vehicle was described as a dark colored four-wheel drive

485
00:28:10.630 --> 00:28:14.130
pickup truck. And I'm sure there's only a handful of

486
00:28:14.170 --> 00:28:19.299
those up in BC. And that's the other thing that's

487
00:28:19.339 --> 00:28:22.039
really tough is like even down to the description of

488
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:26.019
the vehicle, we don't really have a specific color, just

489
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.039
dark colored. It was Very late at night, I'm assuming

490
00:28:29.099 --> 00:28:30.700
not great visibility.

491
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:32.900
Not great. Not great.

492
00:28:33.940 --> 00:28:38.390
In terms of, you know, how you put these descriptions together.

493
00:28:39.630 --> 00:28:42.390
And that's nobody's fault, you know?

494
00:28:42.490 --> 00:28:43.650
Yeah, you just do your best.

495
00:28:43.769 --> 00:28:46.930
Thank God we have at least this information to work with,

496
00:28:47.069 --> 00:28:52.099
you know? But it is so frustrating. RCMP have released

497
00:28:52.220 --> 00:28:57.099
composite sketches based on the two witness descriptions. For context,

498
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:01.480
Ronnie stood about 5'6 and weighed roughly 150 pounds.

499
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:02.619
Doreen was 5'2 and about 110, 111 pounds.

500
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:06.849
Both parents were physically dwarfed by the man who drove them.

501
00:29:06.970 --> 00:29:07.430
Away that night.

502
00:29:07.450 --> 00:29:09.069
And that would be true whether he was 200 or

503
00:29:09.069 --> 00:29:12.650
275 pounds. So part of me thinks that's kind of

504
00:29:24.670 --> 00:29:29.000
Almost the bigger takeaway is just that his physical.

505
00:29:29.779 --> 00:29:30.380
Capacity.

506
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:31.039
Yes.

507
00:29:31.460 --> 00:29:32.660
Yeah.

508
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.349
That's a good word to use.

509
00:29:35.849 --> 00:29:40.589
When Ronnie failed to make contact for several weeks, his mother... Mabel,

510
00:29:40.670 --> 00:29:46.380
reported the family missing to RCMP in late August 1989.

511
00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:50.920
Police examined the Strathcona Avenue residence and found most of

512
00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:54.880
the family's furniture and clothing, along with Russell and Ryan's

513
00:29:54.960 --> 00:30:00.180
school records, still inside. Which means honestly makes sense if

514
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:02.160
you only think you're going to be gone for two weeks.

515
00:30:02.809 --> 00:30:04.869
You're not going to sell all of your furniture and

516
00:30:04.930 --> 00:30:08.509
certainly not at, you know, 11 o'clock at night or

517
00:30:08.509 --> 00:30:09.309
1 a.m.

518
00:30:09.329 --> 00:30:09.890
In the morning.

519
00:30:10.849 --> 00:30:14.869
Various family members, including Mabel, have stated that there was

520
00:30:15.009 --> 00:30:18.970
no adequate support from any external agencies during the initial

521
00:30:19.029 --> 00:30:25.619
search on account of the family's indigenous background. And that

522
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:28.420
holds true across a lot of these stories that we

523
00:30:28.460 --> 00:30:33.160
talk about. dating back to this era, unfortunately. I don't

524
00:30:33.180 --> 00:30:34.980
know if there's a good way to fact check that,

525
00:30:35.220 --> 00:30:36.819
but I believe them.

526
00:30:37.619 --> 00:30:37.839
Yeah.

527
00:30:39.099 --> 00:30:45.650
On September 7th, 1989, the Prince George RCMP detachment incorrectly

528
00:30:45.710 --> 00:30:50.470
reported that the family had been found and the investigation

529
00:30:50.569 --> 00:30:51.690
was briefly closed.

530
00:30:52.750 --> 00:30:53.210
How do you.

531
00:30:53.890 --> 00:30:54.529
What's briefly?

532
00:30:54.930 --> 00:30:55.910
How do you mess that up?

533
00:30:55.930 --> 00:30:56.309
Yeah.

534
00:30:56.839 --> 00:30:57.079
Yeah.

535
00:30:57.859 --> 00:31:02.059
Really wish I knew more about how that happened. I'm

536
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:05.049
dying to know. Would just, would really love that.

537
00:31:05.069 --> 00:31:05.970
That's weird.

538
00:31:06.509 --> 00:31:06.710
Yeah.

539
00:31:07.869 --> 00:31:11.809
The following year, a televised Crime Stoppers reenactment of the

540
00:31:11.849 --> 00:31:20.799
disappearance was broadcast on Prince George Station KPG-TV, a station,

541
00:31:21.940 --> 00:31:24.450
and this is just, you cannot make this shit up,

542
00:31:24.859 --> 00:31:28.970
a station whose signal did not reach the geographic area

543
00:31:29.009 --> 00:31:31.259
where the family was believed to have vanished from.

544
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:35.519
Of course not. What the fuck?

545
00:31:36.859 --> 00:31:40.869
And here's the thing is like, I mean, Crime Stoppers

546
00:31:40.900 --> 00:31:43.809
and a lot of other organizations like that, you know,

547
00:31:43.829 --> 00:31:47.109
I can't really fault them necessarily.

548
00:31:48.730 --> 00:31:52.430
But that's just, that's kind of a bummer.

549
00:31:52.450 --> 00:31:55.420
It's kind of a bummer. To put it lightly. The

550
00:31:56.339 --> 00:32:00.380
most important area it needs to reach. And it's not.

551
00:32:01.089 --> 00:32:01.329
Yeah.

552
00:32:01.349 --> 00:32:03.450
I mean, at least it's out there.

553
00:32:03.470 --> 00:32:03.549
Yeah.

554
00:32:04.450 --> 00:32:05.089
And who knows?

555
00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:08.289
I mean, even though they, you know, were kind of

556
00:32:08.329 --> 00:32:11.049
supposed to be they were traveling far enough that they

557
00:32:11.109 --> 00:32:13.869
needed to do so by car. But also, you know,

558
00:32:14.109 --> 00:32:16.950
it's Canada and it's the middle of the night in

559
00:32:16.990 --> 00:32:20.599
a rural area. So I think that that would that

560
00:32:20.619 --> 00:32:24.450
would be almost any journey. you would need to be

561
00:32:24.470 --> 00:32:28.920
in a car. But if somehow it happens that, you know,

562
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:32.819
they ventured beyond the area that they were supposed to,

563
00:32:33.819 --> 00:32:39.400
maybe somebody who saw that Crime Stoppers reenactment, you know,

564
00:32:39.980 --> 00:32:44.150
maybe someone has information that comes forward, you know, I mean,

565
00:32:44.490 --> 00:32:49.000
that would be the hope anyway. In 1992, the Prince

566
00:32:49.059 --> 00:32:53.799
George Native Friendship Center and Mabel Jack began fundraising to

567
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:59.259
increase reward money and publicity for the case. Crime Stoppers

568
00:32:59.339 --> 00:33:03.150
was offering up to $ 2, 000 for information leading to the

569
00:33:03.170 --> 00:33:04.930
whereabouts of the Jack family.

570
00:33:04.950 --> 00:33:09.690
I'm like, God, $ 2, 000. Like, it's not nothing.

571
00:33:09.789 --> 00:33:14.430
But I'm like, even back in 1992, like, doesn't that

572
00:33:14.450 --> 00:33:16.190
just seem like not enough?

573
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:17.519
Is it just me?

574
00:33:17.539 --> 00:33:21.559
Yeah, for like a whole family of four. Right.

575
00:33:21.769 --> 00:33:23.349
I'm like, oh my God.

576
00:33:24.369 --> 00:33:29.750
On the morning of Sunday, January 28th, 1996, an anonymous

577
00:33:29.809 --> 00:33:36.529
mail caller contacted the RCMP detachment in Vanderhoof, BC, approximately

578
00:33:36.529 --> 00:33:41.970
61 miles or 98 kilometers west of Prince George. In

579
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.730
a call lasting mere seconds, the caller stated, that the

580
00:33:45.789 --> 00:33:49.630
Jack family are buried at the south end of Gordy's Ranch,

581
00:33:50.269 --> 00:33:50.920
then hung up.

582
00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:54.299
Ooh, I mean, that's ominous.

583
00:33:56.299 --> 00:33:58.839
The call was traced to a house in Stony Creek.

584
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:03.400
RCMP issued a province-wide appeal for the caller to make

585
00:34:03.460 --> 00:34:06.579
contact again and later released an audio tape of the

586
00:34:06.619 --> 00:34:11.989
call when he did not. In March 1996, the recording

587
00:34:12.050 --> 00:34:17.260
was analyzed at the University of British Columbia. RCMP later

588
00:34:17.300 --> 00:34:20.579
stated they believed they had searched the correct Gordy's Ranch,

589
00:34:21.099 --> 00:34:22.480
but found nothing.

590
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:27.800
The correct Gordy's Ranch. So were there other options?

591
00:34:29.070 --> 00:34:31.409
It sounds like it was a little bit unclear.

592
00:34:31.510 --> 00:34:35.130
Like if they had actually been able to like have

593
00:34:35.530 --> 00:34:38.570
a real conversation with this person, perhaps they would have

594
00:34:38.650 --> 00:34:42.750
asked for more details and said, when you say Gordy's Ranch,

595
00:34:42.989 --> 00:34:46.150
do you mean... So, I mean, it does sound like

596
00:34:46.190 --> 00:34:48.829
there's some question, like there may have been more than

597
00:34:48.909 --> 00:34:50.550
one ranch that would have been like.

598
00:34:50.510 --> 00:34:52.349
A potential place of interest.

599
00:34:52.750 --> 00:34:55.570
So it's another situation where you're like, oh, my God,

600
00:34:55.590 --> 00:34:58.440
it's just we could just have like a teensy bit

601
00:34:58.480 --> 00:34:59.300
more information.

602
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:00.460
Maybe things are different.

603
00:35:00.980 --> 00:35:01.340
Yeah.

604
00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:03.380
But if there's like a false tip.

605
00:35:03.860 --> 00:35:04.139
Right.

606
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:06.000
But there's no way to know.

607
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:11.130
Subsequent investigation determined that a party had been in progress

608
00:35:11.289 --> 00:35:14.030
at the Trace House at the time of the call.

609
00:35:14.769 --> 00:35:18.389
And Vanderhoof police were unable to locate all six to

610
00:35:18.449 --> 00:35:22.429
nine people who had been in attendance. So like they

611
00:35:22.489 --> 00:35:25.909
traced the call to a very specific house, but there

612
00:35:26.010 --> 00:35:28.349
was a party going on and they weren't able to

613
00:35:28.389 --> 00:35:33.650
get into contact with everyone that was there. So they can't,

614
00:35:34.690 --> 00:35:39.090
you know, maybe determine who made the call and question them.

615
00:35:39.030 --> 00:35:40.510
Further, unfortunately.

616
00:35:40.670 --> 00:35:41.050
Wow.

617
00:35:41.510 --> 00:35:45.289
I'm impressed they actually traced it, though. Yeah. Yeah.

618
00:35:45.469 --> 00:35:47.809
But if they traced it, then don't they know who

619
00:35:47.869 --> 00:35:50.489
hosted the party? And eight to nine people is not

620
00:35:50.510 --> 00:35:53.289
that many people. Like why couldn't they get in? Why

621
00:35:53.329 --> 00:35:55.690
couldn't they get in contact with everybody? That's not that

622
00:35:55.730 --> 00:35:56.360
many people.

623
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:02.780
Maybe the homeowner refused to divulge some of that information.

624
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:03.440
I don't know.

625
00:36:03.460 --> 00:36:04.820
Okay.

626
00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:05.699
Yeah.

627
00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:10.190
I don't have like a detailed explanation for why they couldn't.

628
00:36:11.130 --> 00:36:13.769
I'm asking you like you were there. Why, Kaylin?

629
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:14.590
Why?

630
00:36:14.659 --> 00:36:18.199
Goddammit. We're looking for accountability here, bitch.

631
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:20.119
Just a little bit. Yeah.

632
00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:20.639
Yep.

633
00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:25.139
The RCMP made another public appeal for the caller to

634
00:36:25.179 --> 00:36:30.289
come forward in 2018. Investigators have separately said they are

635
00:36:30.449 --> 00:36:34.429
also seeking an individual who provided information to a third

636
00:36:34.510 --> 00:36:38.110
party by phone and then by mail, which was then

637
00:36:38.210 --> 00:36:39.389
passed on to police.

638
00:36:40.179 --> 00:36:41.179
The content and.

639
00:36:41.179 --> 00:36:46.500
Date of those particular tips has not been released. So

640
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.739
as not to compromise the investigation, which is super frustrating

641
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:54.800
because in that instance, it's like, even if you were

642
00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:58.139
the person that passed on the tip, would you record, like,

643
00:36:58.380 --> 00:37:00.400
could you tag yourself? Like, would you know it was

644
00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:03.000
you that they're trying to reach out to? I mean,

645
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:08.780
hopefully like without any information about what the content of

646
00:37:08.860 --> 00:37:15.789
those tips is, In August 2019, the RCMP conducted searches

647
00:37:15.869 --> 00:37:19.949
with ground-penetrating radar and heavy equipment on a property of

648
00:37:19.989 --> 00:37:25.269
the Sycoos First Nation, south of Vanderhoof. No evidence concerning

649
00:37:25.329 --> 00:37:30.909
the Jack family was located. The following year, in August 2020,

650
00:37:30.909 --> 00:37:36.230
family advocates released age-progression photos of all four family members.

651
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:42.130
The images were produced by Samantha Steinberg, a forensic artist

652
00:37:42.170 --> 00:37:47.510
with the Miami-Dade Police Department, and distributed through the Unidentified

653
00:37:47.570 --> 00:37:53.650
Human Remains Canada Facebook page and the AWARE Foundation. The

654
00:37:53.789 --> 00:37:59.389
images allow you to imagine Ronnie and Doreen at age 57,

655
00:37:59.389 --> 00:38:00.150
Russell at 40.

656
00:38:00.110 --> 00:38:00.989
And Ryan....

657
00:38:04.190 --> 00:38:06.590
At 35. Wow.

658
00:38:08.110 --> 00:38:12.550
And, and that part right there, like literally, literally gives

659
00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:15.309
me chills. And it is definitely not cold in here.

660
00:38:15.429 --> 00:38:19.309
Let me tell you, I think there's something about like

661
00:38:19.929 --> 00:38:25.199
the age progression photos. And obviously they produce those so

662
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:32.079
very often in the cases involving missing children, because children

663
00:38:33.309 --> 00:38:36.929
you know, their overall appearance can change so much even

664
00:38:36.969 --> 00:38:39.320
in a, in a short time. And so it makes sense.

665
00:38:39.659 --> 00:38:43.460
It's often something that can be so helpful, you know,

666
00:38:43.539 --> 00:38:49.599
for people to recognize and help to identify and, you know,

667
00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:54.039
solve cases, but I don't know. They're just so eerie

668
00:38:54.099 --> 00:38:54.429
to me.

669
00:38:54.449 --> 00:38:58.070
Oh, they are. When you mentioned the going back to

670
00:38:58.090 --> 00:39:00.639
their house and seeing like everything just as they left it,

671
00:39:00.690 --> 00:39:04.320
the furniture, the schoolwork, I feels like that to me

672
00:39:04.420 --> 00:39:08.219
where it's like imagining like the normal future that could

673
00:39:08.260 --> 00:39:11.159
have been right is like what I feel when I

674
00:39:11.219 --> 00:39:14.159
see those two and it's just like something deep in

675
00:39:14.179 --> 00:39:17.269
me just like aches when I see those it's so hard.

676
00:39:17.010 --> 00:39:20.150
Because they're likely I mean I hate to say it

677
00:39:20.269 --> 00:39:23.650
but they're likely not that old you know I don't

678
00:39:23.670 --> 00:39:27.809
yeah they probably didn't make it I mean I fucking

679
00:39:27.829 --> 00:39:32.380
hope somewhere they're out there but right it doesn't look

680
00:39:32.409 --> 00:39:35.099
good no it doesn't even.

681
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:37.739
If it was like they're out there they all have

682
00:39:38.019 --> 00:39:39.699
like I'm just playing out a scenario they all have

683
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:42.679
amnesia like that man who didn't know who he was

684
00:39:42.739 --> 00:39:45.239
or something and they're living this different life it is

685
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:49.320
still this weird like these are the forgotten people Like,

686
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:50.639
these are the people that, like.

687
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:51.539
Right.

688
00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:54.920
They just disappeared. I don't know. There's, like, literally a

689
00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:58.210
hole in the place that they used to be.

690
00:39:58.750 --> 00:39:59.050
Right.

691
00:39:59.150 --> 00:40:01.710
And those pictures represent that. It's crazy.

692
00:40:01.730 --> 00:40:02.550
Yeah.

693
00:40:03.690 --> 00:40:09.769
It's, like, no matter what the ultimate, like, outcome of their...

694
00:40:09.969 --> 00:40:11.940
The case of their disappearances.

695
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:12.400
It's, like.

696
00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:18.269
It's... Like, there's hardly any outcome that really... feels ultimately

697
00:40:18.329 --> 00:40:22.449
positive I guess is you know that's like sort of

698
00:40:22.489 --> 00:40:26.250
the emotional piece of it that's just like after a

699
00:40:26.289 --> 00:40:28.730
certain number of years and at this point it's been

700
00:40:28.909 --> 00:40:34.070
decades it's it's been essentially the entirety of my life

701
00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:38.679
that these people have been missing to think about that

702
00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:42.110
yeah Which, of course, as we know, I'm only 28.

703
00:40:42.110 --> 00:40:42.820
But, you know.

704
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.119
So long time to be missing.

705
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:48.000
Yeah.

706
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:54.860
Doreen's sister has said that the RCMP told the family

707
00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:59.690
they would produce their own age progression images, but they

708
00:40:59.730 --> 00:41:04.250
weren't satisfied with the versions that they produced.

709
00:41:04.849 --> 00:41:07.909
Oh, wow. So that is why it was, you know,

710
00:41:08.050 --> 00:41:09.230
independently done.

711
00:41:09.869 --> 00:41:14.969
And certainly Samantha Steinberg, she's kind of a big name

712
00:41:15.530 --> 00:41:18.969
in that particular sphere. So I think it seems like

713
00:41:19.010 --> 00:41:20.510
probably they went to the right place.

714
00:41:20.730 --> 00:41:23.429
But that is interesting. That's something I never thought about.

715
00:41:23.489 --> 00:41:28.079
Like you see age progressions of your relatives and you're like, oh,

716
00:41:28.119 --> 00:41:29.440
maybe that's not right.

717
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:31.699
That's interesting.

718
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:36.380
It's just another disappointment. Just I mean, can we catch

719
00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:41.780
a break? On August 2nd, 2024, more than 120 people

720
00:41:41.929 --> 00:41:46.610
attended a vigil in Strathcona Park in Prince George to

721
00:41:46.650 --> 00:41:51.909
mark the 35-year anniversary of the disappearance. Family and community

722
00:41:51.969 --> 00:41:55.969
members also organized a search in the Willow River area

723
00:41:56.230 --> 00:42:00.880
east of Prince George. Prince George RCMP have confirmed that

724
00:42:01.059 --> 00:42:05.380
as of 2024, the serious crime section was has a

725
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:09.659
dedicated investigator attached to the case, and the file will

726
00:42:09.739 --> 00:42:15.210
remain open until the family is located. Marlene Jack, Doreen's sister,

727
00:42:15.389 --> 00:42:19.409
has said she was told by authorities that they would

728
00:42:19.429 --> 00:42:23.960
withhold updates on the investigation from her and the family

729
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:25.579
if she spoke to the media.

730
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:26.980
Oh, wow.

731
00:42:27.579 --> 00:42:31.400
That was something that happened, I think, kind of very

732
00:42:31.579 --> 00:42:35.840
early on. in the disappearance and the investigation.

733
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:36.559
Why?

734
00:42:36.579 --> 00:42:38.579
Yeah, really great question.

735
00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:44.480
Like, were they afraid she would spill the secrets or something? No,

736
00:42:44.579 --> 00:42:46.679
because they.

737
00:42:46.579 --> 00:42:51.420
Also have not been, according to her and other family members,

738
00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:54.730
they have not been very good about keeping them informed about,

739
00:42:55.190 --> 00:42:58.230
you know, the status of the investigation. So I'll let

740
00:42:58.269 --> 00:43:02.519
you speculate about why that might be That.

741
00:43:02.420 --> 00:43:05.590
Was I was watching a documentary. What was it?

742
00:43:05.659 --> 00:43:08.599
I think it was the yogurt shop murders where there's

743
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:09.940
like four teenage girls.

744
00:43:09.980 --> 00:43:13.199
I watched that whole documentary. It was really good and sad.

745
00:43:13.219 --> 00:43:17.500
But like the they were doing the same thing to

746
00:43:17.539 --> 00:43:20.460
those families, like not telling them updates.

747
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:23.119
And they're like, why can't we know what's going on?

748
00:43:23.630 --> 00:43:25.449
And they were like, well, because you might talk to

749
00:43:25.510 --> 00:43:27.179
the media about it.

750
00:43:27.250 --> 00:43:30.670
You might say things. And they're like, we're not. Why

751
00:43:30.730 --> 00:43:31.429
would we do that?

752
00:43:31.590 --> 00:43:34.449
We're like the family who wants us solved. Like, why

753
00:43:34.489 --> 00:43:36.050
can't you just tell us what's happening?

754
00:43:36.449 --> 00:43:40.880
Right. Yeah. I mean, maybe at least just communicate with

755
00:43:40.909 --> 00:43:44.179
them at the level that would be something that can

756
00:43:44.260 --> 00:43:48.019
be shared publicly. But it sounds like they were basically

757
00:43:48.139 --> 00:43:53.230
trying to I mean, and I'm sorry if this wasn't

758
00:43:53.269 --> 00:43:56.170
their intent and I'm speaking out of turn, I suppose,

759
00:43:56.250 --> 00:44:00.840
but it sounds like they were essentially trying to silence them.

760
00:44:00.860 --> 00:44:01.619
Yeah.

761
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:05.880
And, you know, sorry, maybe I'm a bit jaded myself, but,

762
00:44:06.139 --> 00:44:10.650
you know, it holds true to a pattern, particularly in

763
00:44:10.670 --> 00:44:15.429
these types of cases where, you know, it's missing and

764
00:44:15.469 --> 00:44:17.190
murdered Indigenous peoples.

765
00:44:17.750 --> 00:44:18.429
It's a pattern.

766
00:44:18.670 --> 00:44:23.360
It's certainly a pattern that we've observed in cases dating

767
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:28.599
back to this era. I want to, you know, be

768
00:44:28.780 --> 00:44:33.219
fair and how things are portrayed to a certain degree,

769
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:35.880
but it's like, come, I mean, at a certain point,

770
00:44:35.980 --> 00:44:38.599
it's like, well, but I also have eyes and ears.

771
00:44:38.980 --> 00:44:43.360
So yeah, you know, She testified about the case at

772
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:47.199
the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and

773
00:44:47.260 --> 00:44:54.750
Girls Hearings in Smithers, B.C. on September 27, 2017. She

774
00:44:54.849 --> 00:45:00.730
followed that warning for years, but was ultimately praised by

775
00:45:00.789 --> 00:45:02.369
the commission for her bravery.

776
00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:05.510
Because think about that. This is something that they said

777
00:45:05.570 --> 00:45:09.130
to her, you know, very early on in.

778
00:45:11.019 --> 00:45:14.219
One of the most horrific times in her life, presumably.

779
00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:16.340
And if you're thinking that the only way that I'm

780
00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:20.119
going to continue to be getting information from the authorities,

781
00:45:21.340 --> 00:45:26.030
who you, let's be fair, very reasonably have every reason

782
00:45:26.190 --> 00:45:30.650
to distrust, are doing, you know, what is best for

783
00:45:31.329 --> 00:45:36.670
your loved ones. Like, I would be fearful, even, decades

784
00:45:36.929 --> 00:45:40.070
later about speaking up in that way. Like, how could you,

785
00:45:40.219 --> 00:45:42.199
how could you not, how could that not be a

786
00:45:42.980 --> 00:45:45.579
thought that's, you know, wriggling around in the back of

787
00:45:45.619 --> 00:45:50.940
your brain? She runs the Facebook group Missing Jack Family

788
00:45:51.219 --> 00:45:55.219
Out of Prince George, which had roughly 3,500 followers as

789
00:45:55.239 --> 00:46:01.929
of 2022. Mabel Jack, Ronnie's mother, gave her own statement

790
00:46:02.230 --> 00:46:09.489
to the MMIWG the day before on September 26, 2017.

791
00:46:09.489 --> 00:46:13.320
And Ronnie's brother, Ted Jack, has also continued to publicly

792
00:46:13.389 --> 00:46:18.619
search for answers. The Jack family disappearance is frequently discussed

793
00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:22.159
in the context of the Highway of Tears, the stretch

794
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:26.389
of B.C. Highway 16 between Prince George and Prince Rupert

795
00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:32.019
associated with dozens of unsolved murders and disappearances of indigenous

796
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:36.190
women and girls since the 1970s. And of course, in

797
00:46:36.230 --> 00:46:38.889
this case, it's an entire indigenous family.

798
00:46:38.909 --> 00:46:41.929
Well, I guess I didn't realize it was like the

799
00:46:41.969 --> 00:46:43.449
same like road.

800
00:46:43.469 --> 00:46:45.610
Yeah, it's that same area.

801
00:46:46.210 --> 00:46:48.550
I mean, and this is I mean, to say road

802
00:46:48.670 --> 00:46:52.820
actually like is like really, really undersells it because it's

803
00:46:52.860 --> 00:46:55.559
a massive swath of.

804
00:46:56.110 --> 00:47:00.559
You're right. I just heard, you know, highway. No, no, no,

805
00:47:00.579 --> 00:47:01.719
for sure. Yeah, no.

806
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:04.219
And so you see like how your brain goes there.

807
00:47:05.460 --> 00:47:09.360
The logging camp destination the suspect described was along that

808
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:14.820
same corridor west of Prince George. Family members and indigenous

809
00:47:14.980 --> 00:47:19.280
advocates have consistently pointed to the initial law enforcement response,

810
00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:27.269
including the September 1989 family found error. and the mismatched

811
00:47:27.409 --> 00:47:33.340
broadcast area of the 1990 Crime Stoppers reenactment as evidence

812
00:47:33.489 --> 00:47:38.559
of the systemic under investigation of indigenous missing persons cases

813
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:43.159
in the region. And I'm hard pressed to say that

814
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:47.429
anybody can come to the table with better evidence than that.

815
00:47:47.530 --> 00:47:48.769
Like, what more do you want?

816
00:47:49.989 --> 00:47:54.579
One name that comes up often in Jack family write-ups

817
00:47:54.599 --> 00:48:00.579
is Bobby Jack Fowler, the U S serial killer confirmed

818
00:48:00.619 --> 00:48:06.869
via DNA in 2012 to the 1974 Colleen McMillan highway

819
00:48:06.929 --> 00:48:11.150
of tears murder. So we've actually talked about Bobby Jack Fowler.

820
00:48:11.210 --> 00:48:14.719
We've covered him on a previous episode. I was going

821
00:48:14.739 --> 00:48:18.199
to say that sounds very familiar. I, I want to

822
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:20.260
say I looked it up and I meant to write

823
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:23.719
it down, didn't actually write it down.

824
00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:24.360
Looked it up.

825
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:28.260
I'm pretty sure it's episode 61. If you want to

826
00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:29.480
go back and listen to that.

827
00:48:30.659 --> 00:48:31.420
Bobby Jack.

828
00:48:32.219 --> 00:48:34.659
Bobby Jack Fowler. I'm like Fowler.

829
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:35.119
Oof.

830
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:36.219
That gives me pause.

831
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:38.400
It reminds me of Amy Farrah Fowler and I don't

832
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:40.059
like it because I like her. Yeah.

833
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:44.849
Well, I think it's not like that at all. No

834
00:48:44.929 --> 00:48:48.289
relation to Amy Farrah Fowler. No relation.

835
00:48:49.530 --> 00:48:53.840
He reportedly frequented the same pub Ronnie visited that night.

836
00:48:55.420 --> 00:49:00.980
But as a theory, Bobby Jack Fowler, any involvement, it

837
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.219
just doesn't hold up.

838
00:49:03.219 --> 00:49:05.300
Fowler doesn't match the composite.

839
00:49:05.489 --> 00:49:09.090
He was much smaller, like comically smaller.

840
00:49:09.829 --> 00:49:10.630
Little Bobby Jack.

841
00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:15.130
Little dick energy with.

842
00:49:15.030 --> 00:49:19.800
Different features, like physically this It's just not a match.

843
00:49:20.659 --> 00:49:25.440
Geographic profiler Kim Rosmo has publicly said Fowler was not

844
00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:30.869
responsible for deaths along Highway 16 between 1989 and 2006.

845
00:49:30.869 --> 00:49:36.030
And Fowler's only confirmed B.C. connection was working.

846
00:49:35.750 --> 00:49:37.389
For Happy's roofing company.

847
00:49:37.940 --> 00:49:38.679
But it was in.

848
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:42.159
The Prince George area. It just happens that it was

849
00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:46.530
in 1974. So that was a while ago. He's just

850
00:49:46.590 --> 00:49:50.090
kind of like in the area. You know, it's sort

851
00:49:50.150 --> 00:49:52.550
of a, you know, until you look at the details,

852
00:49:52.829 --> 00:49:56.389
I get it. People connect the two, but the geographic

853
00:49:56.449 --> 00:50:00.789
profiling and description evidence, there's just nothing to support it.

854
00:50:01.469 --> 00:50:05.250
I feel like it's important to maybe exhaust every avenue,

855
00:50:05.710 --> 00:50:07.150
but that's not the one.

856
00:50:07.579 --> 00:50:09.599
People have been taken to court for less. Right.

857
00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:12.920
But like, she doesn't even go here, you know?

858
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:13.500
Yeah.

859
00:50:13.780 --> 00:50:15.949
I see how it doesn't, it doesn't quite fit.

860
00:50:17.329 --> 00:50:20.670
It's also worth noting that the Jack case is not

861
00:50:20.750 --> 00:50:26.590
part of Project E-PANA. And that is the RCMP Highway

862
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:28.139
of Tears Task Force.

863
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:29.559
What does that stand for?

864
00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:33.920
E stands for E division, which is the specific branch

865
00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:38.280
of the RCMP that has police jurisdiction over British Columbia.

866
00:50:38.300 --> 00:50:43.530
Panna comes from an Inuit word for a spirit goddess

867
00:50:43.590 --> 00:50:48.030
who cares for and guides souls in the afterlife.

868
00:50:47.690 --> 00:50:50.869
Before they go to heaven or are reincarnated.

869
00:50:51.590 --> 00:50:54.369
Oh my gosh. I totally thought it was just like

870
00:50:54.389 --> 00:50:56.150
an acronym. Is that what they're?

871
00:50:56.789 --> 00:50:58.010
I thought so too.

872
00:50:58.050 --> 00:50:58.389
Yes.

873
00:50:59.250 --> 00:51:00.429
That's so lovely.

874
00:51:01.110 --> 00:51:04.670
So I don't think that reading that last little bit

875
00:51:04.750 --> 00:51:07.409
is going to have any impact on the tenor of

876
00:51:07.489 --> 00:51:08.849
my voice moving forward.

877
00:51:09.010 --> 00:51:10.710
It's totally fine.

878
00:51:11.829 --> 00:51:15.389
It's so sweet that they like named it that. I

879
00:51:15.429 --> 00:51:15.789
don't know.

880
00:51:16.469 --> 00:51:19.070
I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's

881
00:51:19.110 --> 00:51:23.070
just not some like standard like police code, you know?

882
00:51:24.070 --> 00:51:27.139
Well, and that was my recollection, honestly.

883
00:51:27.159 --> 00:51:35.920
And maybe there's, like, the warm and fuzzy explanation, and

884
00:51:36.019 --> 00:51:40.139
maybe there's also an acronym. Like I said, it's been

885
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:43.280
so long since we talked about the Highway of Tears

886
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:46.840
at this point that it certainly wasn't fresh in my mind,

887
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:51.300
but it's kind of a bummer because.

888
00:51:52.409 --> 00:51:57.690
Being part of Project EPANA means, you know, a lot

889
00:51:57.750 --> 00:52:01.349
in terms of like resources and attention, but the fact

890
00:52:01.389 --> 00:52:04.929
that they're in that same area and it's kind of like,

891
00:52:06.650 --> 00:52:07.869
I don't know if you think about it in terms

892
00:52:07.949 --> 00:52:12.510
of like SEO, like they're associated with like the highway

893
00:52:12.550 --> 00:52:17.969
of tears and, you know, to some lesser degree, like

894
00:52:18.030 --> 00:52:22.130
people assume that it's part part of Project EPANA that, like,

895
00:52:22.289 --> 00:52:25.469
I think that's probably brought more attention to the case.

896
00:52:27.409 --> 00:52:32.679
But EPANA's criteria required the victim to be female, engaged

897
00:52:32.699 --> 00:52:38.420
in hitchhiking or other high-risk activity, and last seen within

898
00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:44.969
a mile of highways 16, 97, or 5. A whole

899
00:52:45.050 --> 00:52:48.309
family that left willingly with someone from their own home

900
00:52:48.409 --> 00:52:52.090
just doesn't really fit that criteria. And then, of course,

901
00:52:52.110 --> 00:52:55.059
you know, there's the gender of the, you know, three

902
00:52:55.099 --> 00:52:57.340
of the four potential victims.

903
00:52:58.260 --> 00:53:00.300
Could the mom alone not be part of it?

904
00:53:01.099 --> 00:53:05.010
You know, I think because they all disappeared together, that's

905
00:53:05.070 --> 00:53:07.250
kind of another eliminating factor.

906
00:53:07.309 --> 00:53:07.440
So, and.

907
00:53:10.289 --> 00:53:12.670
As much as I understand that, like, we need to

908
00:53:12.739 --> 00:53:16.420
have certain classifications so that, like, we can put the

909
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:20.099
right resources in the right places. Like, there's something that's

910
00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:24.980
kind of heartbreaking about that, too, where it's like, oh, yeah.

911
00:53:25.380 --> 00:53:28.820
I mean, thankfully, there's not a ton of a whole

912
00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:34.670
family just went missing from the exact same area, you know? Yeah.

913
00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:36.559
I'm not voting.

914
00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:39.519
For there to be the level of frequency that like

915
00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:43.940
they need their own special task force, but there is

916
00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:46.699
something that's like kind of heartbreaking of like, you don't

917
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:48.639
meet the criteria and.

918
00:53:49.219 --> 00:53:53.440
Yeah. And I, I, like you said, I understand that. Yeah.

919
00:53:53.780 --> 00:53:57.239
Resources is a thing. Focus time. That's all a thing.

920
00:53:57.300 --> 00:54:01.510
But also I feel like we usually kind of categorize

921
00:54:02.289 --> 00:54:06.860
women and family as like their own like women and family,

922
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:09.159
women and children, like that is its own thing that

923
00:54:09.179 --> 00:54:13.130
kind of defaults to the matriarch side of it. And

924
00:54:13.170 --> 00:54:17.650
then I feel like that I'm surprised that that wasn't

925
00:54:17.690 --> 00:54:20.750
the superseding. Is that the right word? That that wasn't

926
00:54:21.309 --> 00:54:24.250
what kind of like the overall category of their case was.

927
00:54:24.269 --> 00:54:28.719
Because I think in other, even like governmental programs, the

928
00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:31.500
woman of it, the family of it would have overridden

929
00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:35.710
whatever other the man of it all classified as yeah

930
00:54:36.050 --> 00:54:38.510
exactly i mean but that's what it is and i

931
00:54:38.610 --> 00:54:40.130
think that.

932
00:54:41.590 --> 00:54:44.349
Were it the case that.

933
00:54:46.030 --> 00:54:52.099
The father wasn't also there that might look differently i

934
00:54:52.179 --> 00:54:56.340
will say i do think it also makes a difference

935
00:54:56.820 --> 00:55:03.559
that they were not technically hitchhiking yeah Or engaged in,

936
00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:07.460
you know, kind of their classification of a high-risk activity like.

937
00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:10.320
You know, sex work. But it's so close to hitchhiking. Like,

938
00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:11.860
you're getting a ride from a stranger.

939
00:55:11.889 --> 00:55:16.949
Right. And the dad called and said if anything happens

940
00:55:17.010 --> 00:55:19.090
or if you don't hear from me, that implies high

941
00:55:19.130 --> 00:55:20.769
risk to me.

942
00:55:20.789 --> 00:55:22.050
I know.

943
00:55:22.150 --> 00:55:23.949
I think we should lawyer the shit out of this.

944
00:55:23.969 --> 00:55:24.769
Can we argue our case?

945
00:55:25.670 --> 00:55:26.230
I know.

946
00:55:26.510 --> 00:55:27.449
I would like to.

947
00:55:27.469 --> 00:55:27.550
Yeah.

948
00:55:30.300 --> 00:55:35.159
So Canadian government who legitimately owes us nothing, if you

949
00:55:35.179 --> 00:55:37.440
would give us our 15 minutes, that would be great.

950
00:55:39.340 --> 00:55:42.219
So even though the case is discussed in the context

951
00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:46.599
of the Highway of Tears, the actual investigation sits with

952
00:55:46.619 --> 00:55:53.219
the Prince George RCMP serious crime section alone. Investigators and

953
00:55:53.260 --> 00:55:56.980
journalists have publicly discussed several theories.

954
00:55:56.699 --> 00:55:57.280
Over the years.

955
00:55:58.300 --> 00:56:01.780
None has produced physical evidence of what happened to the

956
00:56:01.820 --> 00:56:06.239
family the earliest theory held that the family was involved

957
00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:09.519
in a vehicle accident and the truck was hidden in

958
00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:13.039
dense brush off the highway so in that case it's

959
00:56:13.099 --> 00:56:19.340
like the bearded stranger almost becomes like you know a

960
00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:23.000
victim himself or you know a side character.

961
00:56:23.019 --> 00:56:23.099
Yeah.

962
00:56:23.900 --> 00:56:26.480
I'd almost like if any, if they, if they had

963
00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:28.940
to pass away or if something had to happen to them,

964
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:29.900
like I prefer that.

965
00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:31.909
I know, you know, I know.

966
00:56:31.929 --> 00:56:38.670
It's just, unfortunately, because the relevant area has over time

967
00:56:38.750 --> 00:56:42.650
been so thoroughly searched. That just seems.

968
00:56:42.530 --> 00:56:44.780
Like you not find it something.

969
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:45.280
Yeah.

970
00:56:45.860 --> 00:56:46.300
Yeah.

971
00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:50.989
I mean, pretty much like it's, It's one thing to

972
00:56:51.030 --> 00:56:55.280
hide a single body, multiple bodies, but to hide a

973
00:56:55.340 --> 00:56:56.320
whole ass truck.

974
00:56:56.599 --> 00:56:57.059
Yeah.

975
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:01.940
If that was what occurred instead, kind of an outlandish

976
00:57:02.079 --> 00:57:03.659
possibility at this point.

977
00:57:03.699 --> 00:57:07.079
I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems unlikely, certainly.

978
00:57:07.099 --> 00:57:09.639
Were there any large bodies of water in the area?

979
00:57:10.690 --> 00:57:13.190
I mean, there's definitely water in the area.

980
00:57:13.349 --> 00:57:15.789
I don't I don't know that they have any reason

981
00:57:15.929 --> 00:57:18.650
to suspect that it's like, oh, their vehicle could have

982
00:57:18.690 --> 00:57:20.139
become submerged.

983
00:57:20.469 --> 00:57:24.000
OK, I was thinking of the Martin family. Right. Yeah.

984
00:57:24.139 --> 00:57:27.400
I mean, that's very that's pretty fresh for us. Anything

985
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:28.199
is possible.

986
00:57:28.219 --> 00:57:30.420
I don't that's another one where I'm like, I don't

987
00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:33.989
I don't think that seems like it's a likely explanation.

988
00:57:34.010 --> 00:57:34.090
Yeah.

989
00:57:34.650 --> 00:57:36.889
It's like part of you is just like wants to

990
00:57:36.929 --> 00:57:40.699
grasp at anything that could make even a semblance of sense.

991
00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:44.780
But a related weakness in this theory is that the

992
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:49.579
unidentified driver has never been reported missing by any family

993
00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:51.380
or even like their employer.

994
00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:52.280
Ooh.

995
00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:53.199
Hmm.

996
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:56.309
That's interesting. Right.

997
00:57:56.590 --> 00:57:59.650
I mean, so if they had in theory been involved

998
00:57:59.929 --> 00:58:04.050
in some sort of a vehicular robbery, incident crash of

999
00:58:04.130 --> 00:58:10.090
some sort, presumably that other person should have maybe flagged something.

1000
00:58:11.329 --> 00:58:14.570
A second theory holds that the job offer was real,

1001
00:58:15.389 --> 00:58:19.480
but was tied to something illegal, like illicit logging, a

1002
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:23.699
grow operation, or something else kind of similar, and that

1003
00:58:23.780 --> 00:58:27.019
something went wrong, resulting in the family's deaths.

1004
00:58:27.960 --> 00:58:28.260
Yeah.

1005
00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:31.300
That one I feel like is a pretty good theory.

1006
00:58:32.230 --> 00:58:34.010
It's all speculative, really.

1007
00:58:34.030 --> 00:58:40.820
A darker third theory discussed by journalists Eve, Lazarus, and others.

1008
00:58:42.739 --> 00:58:43.059
Okay.

1009
00:58:43.619 --> 00:58:47.179
Is that the children were the target from the beginning,

1010
00:58:47.820 --> 00:58:51.159
that the parents were killed quickly, and the boys were

1011
00:58:51.199 --> 00:58:52.840
taken by sex traffickers.

1012
00:58:53.510 --> 00:58:55.530
I don't like that theory. I also.

1013
00:58:56.320 --> 00:58:59.920
it's just by chance that that brother wasn't able to

1014
00:59:00.019 --> 00:59:00.579
watch them.

1015
00:59:00.659 --> 00:59:01.019
Right.

1016
00:59:01.219 --> 00:59:04.670
So what would, what would bearded stranger have done if

1017
00:59:04.710 --> 00:59:06.489
they were able to be watched? Like with the job

1018
00:59:06.550 --> 00:59:08.059
offer be off the table like.

1019
00:59:08.500 --> 00:59:12.179
Right and and so I do think that that one

1020
00:59:12.760 --> 00:59:16.119
it's like it's frustrating because we come across so many

1021
00:59:16.159 --> 00:59:20.280
cases where it's like there's multiple theories and it's like

1022
00:59:20.619 --> 00:59:23.789
there's an element of plausibility to some degree or like

1023
00:59:23.889 --> 00:59:28.130
believability to each of them but like nothing like fits

1024
00:59:28.289 --> 00:59:32.530
perfectly and Which makes sense because if a case has

1025
00:59:32.550 --> 00:59:36.789
been unsolved for decades, it's like, well, probably if there

1026
00:59:36.829 --> 00:59:41.619
was a Cinderella theory and the shoe fit perfectly, I

1027
00:59:41.619 --> 00:59:48.219
think maybe in the ensuing decades, it could have been solved.

1028
00:59:50.139 --> 00:59:54.409
A fourth possibility grounded in Mabel's statement that Ronnie told

1029
00:59:54.469 --> 00:59:56.849
her he was in debt to someone is that the

1030
00:59:56.909 --> 01:00:00.869
job offer was was a pretext to collect on or

1031
01:00:00.949 --> 01:00:02.650
resolve that debt through violence.

1032
01:00:03.690 --> 01:00:09.619
This came to mind as well. Yeah. I'm curious and

1033
01:00:09.659 --> 01:00:11.559
I don't want to speculate irresponsibly.

1034
01:00:11.579 --> 01:00:11.659
Yeah.

1035
01:00:12.679 --> 01:00:15.079
I am just curious if this has been explored at all.

1036
01:00:15.900 --> 01:00:19.550
Is there any chance that Ronnie knew Bearded Stranger and

1037
01:00:19.570 --> 01:00:24.210
that he was part of this somehow? Maybe he didn't

1038
01:00:24.630 --> 01:00:26.750
maybe the brother not being able to watch the kids

1039
01:00:26.849 --> 01:00:28.610
was actually part of the plan, or maybe that was

1040
01:00:28.650 --> 01:00:32.110
something that wasn't planned, but like Bearded Stranger was like,

1041
01:00:32.699 --> 01:00:35.260
fuck it, we'll take care of all of you.

1042
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:36.820
Fuck it, we'll do it live.

1043
01:00:37.659 --> 01:00:41.519
Yeah. I would assume that if that is an avenue

1044
01:00:41.579 --> 01:00:46.480
that has been really seriously explored by law enforcement, you know,

1045
01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:51.880
any super specific details are probably not being released to

1046
01:00:51.900 --> 01:00:54.869
the public as to like, what they have learned.

1047
01:00:55.670 --> 01:00:57.090
It's certainly possible.

1048
01:00:57.110 --> 01:01:02.300
I kind of don't think, especially because Ronnie himself has

1049
01:01:03.139 --> 01:01:06.880
remained missing as well. I kind of, that one to

1050
01:01:06.940 --> 01:01:09.599
me is another where I'm like, it's certainly a possibility,

1051
01:01:09.659 --> 01:01:12.650
but like, it feels like it doesn't like a hundred

1052
01:01:12.690 --> 01:01:17.150
percent fit maybe, but it's like, I mean, at a

1053
01:01:17.190 --> 01:01:20.079
certain point you just, feel like you need a tinfoil

1054
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:22.420
hat because you're like well anything could happen like if

1055
01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:27.860
we explored alien abduction like totally totally yeah it's like

1056
01:01:27.880 --> 01:01:33.800
how does an entire family disappear i generally go in

1057
01:01:33.860 --> 01:01:38.659
this direction beyond those general theories which are kind of

1058
01:01:38.860 --> 01:01:45.190
broad concepts one specific individual has come up in outside

1059
01:01:45.250 --> 01:01:50.369
discussion of the case an Alberta man named Patrick Joseph

1060
01:01:50.570 --> 01:01:56.179
Anthony Carson, better known as Pat Carson. Carson is a

1061
01:01:56.320 --> 01:02:00.380
convicted sex offender in Alberta who has been the subject

1062
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:06.119
of long-running community warnings from independent researchers and advocacy sites,

1063
01:02:06.820 --> 01:02:12.219
which allege that he uses online ads offering training within

1064
01:02:12.300 --> 01:02:16.909
the trades. room and board or volunteer work at his

1065
01:02:16.989 --> 01:02:21.550
horse ranch to lure victims. The ranch is located in

1066
01:02:21.590 --> 01:02:26.679
the Sandy Beach or Onaway area, roughly an hour northwest

1067
01:02:26.780 --> 01:02:31.500
of Edmonton, and has operated under several names over the years.

1068
01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:37.090
Which, of course, you know, it's totally fine.

1069
01:02:36.989 --> 01:02:40.329
To change your name every handful of years so that,

1070
01:02:40.530 --> 01:02:44.369
you know, It's harder for people to identify what your

1071
01:02:44.510 --> 01:02:46.769
previous dealings might have been, right?

1072
01:02:46.949 --> 01:02:47.809
I mean, that's fine.

1073
01:02:48.110 --> 01:02:50.889
I mean, trade schools do it all the time, and

1074
01:02:50.949 --> 01:02:53.230
they are never problematic.

1075
01:02:54.610 --> 01:02:57.159
So, like, was Gordy is one of the past names?

1076
01:02:57.590 --> 01:03:01.920
That's what I was thinking. It's interesting. It's a ranch.

1077
01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:02.699
You guys.

1078
01:03:03.820 --> 01:03:07.320
And we are, like, this is basically the end. But there's, like,

1079
01:03:07.619 --> 01:03:10.139
another paragraph, and you're going to be like, the fuck?

1080
01:03:10.159 --> 01:03:11.280
Okay.

1081
01:03:11.940 --> 01:03:17.590
Carson's most publicly discussed link to a specific missing persons

1082
01:03:17.650 --> 01:03:22.909
investigation actually is not this family. Just putting that out there.

1083
01:03:23.849 --> 01:03:30.599
It's the 2010 disappearance of Amber Takaro, a case that

1084
01:03:30.780 --> 01:03:35.440
RCMP later publicly acknowledged they had mishandled.

1085
01:03:36.059 --> 01:03:36.820
What else is new?

1086
01:03:38.179 --> 01:03:42.239
Multiple witnesses came forward saying they recognized his voice on

1087
01:03:42.320 --> 01:03:46.309
the recorded call from her abductor.

1088
01:03:46.329 --> 01:03:48.230
Ooh.

1089
01:03:49.829 --> 01:03:53.829
RCMP have stated they do not consider him a person

1090
01:03:53.869 --> 01:03:55.250
of interest in that case.

1091
01:03:56.210 --> 01:03:58.449
How? Okay.

1092
01:03:58.949 --> 01:04:01.179
This is one of those times where I'm like, I.

1093
01:04:03.320 --> 01:04:04.380
Had to pull back.

1094
01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:05.940
I couldn't pull too close.

1095
01:04:06.409 --> 01:04:10.210
I couldn't tug at that thread, really, so I won't

1096
01:04:10.230 --> 01:04:14.269
be able to answer a lot of questions. But Carson

1097
01:04:14.309 --> 01:04:17.820
has never been named by RCMP as a suspect or

1098
01:04:17.889 --> 01:04:22.539
person of interest in the Jack family investigation. His name

1099
01:04:22.639 --> 01:04:29.780
has surfaced in independent discussion of the case, and that's that.

1100
01:04:29.929 --> 01:04:32.849
That's that. What does he look like?

1101
01:04:36.010 --> 01:04:39.690
Yeah, I would be really interested to find out some

1102
01:04:39.710 --> 01:04:41.710
more information.

1103
01:04:41.389 --> 01:04:44.969
Like Internet sleuths. Like, listen, if all we do is

1104
01:04:45.050 --> 01:04:45.929
eliminate him.

1105
01:04:47.070 --> 01:04:50.840
Great, because I think that so much of, you know,

1106
01:04:50.909 --> 01:04:54.539
investigating cases like this is just eliminating people that can't

1107
01:04:54.639 --> 01:04:56.639
possibly be involved.

1108
01:04:57.059 --> 01:04:57.820
And then from there.

1109
01:04:58.409 --> 01:05:02.219
That helps you obviously to determine the dude that is

1110
01:05:02.320 --> 01:05:08.960
the dude. And it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating. But

1111
01:05:09.019 --> 01:05:13.900
like independent, like journalists and advocacy groups are like, this

1112
01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:18.150
is dangerous. This man is like trying to lure people

1113
01:05:18.309 --> 01:05:22.050
out to his ranch. And, you know, these are, if

1114
01:05:22.090 --> 01:05:26.769
nothing else, you know, journalistic integrity for legal reasons.

1115
01:05:27.260 --> 01:05:29.099
These are, third party accounts.

1116
01:05:29.179 --> 01:05:32.630
I can't, you know, I can't really verify these as

1117
01:05:33.250 --> 01:05:39.289
much as I maybe would love to, but yikes, you know.

1118
01:05:39.309 --> 01:05:41.530
I just need to know, does he have a beard?

1119
01:05:41.630 --> 01:05:45.130
Is he tall? Is he, you know, I have.

1120
01:05:44.989 --> 01:05:47.389
To say if he did have a beard at some point,

1121
01:05:47.469 --> 01:05:48.730
I bet you he doesn't now.

1122
01:05:50.210 --> 01:05:53.309
Well, that's true, but that would be my guess.

1123
01:05:54.550 --> 01:05:55.199
This sucks.

1124
01:05:55.849 --> 01:05:59.309
This is the worst ending you've ever told. Yeah.

1125
01:06:00.150 --> 01:06:01.590
No, I'm kind of with you on that.

1126
01:06:01.750 --> 01:06:06.960
I feel as though an entire family going missing and

1127
01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:15.699
having 0.000% resolution is ultimately like kind of the worst.

1128
01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:19.059
It's up there at the very least.

1129
01:06:19.900 --> 01:06:21.639
It sucks. It really sucks.

1130
01:06:21.949 --> 01:06:24.670
And especially in this case, because, you know, we talked

1131
01:06:24.710 --> 01:06:28.010
about it earlier. There's, you know, some kind of obvious

1132
01:06:28.150 --> 01:06:32.230
and it's broad strokes type stuff, but there's parallels to.

1133
01:06:32.130 --> 01:06:32.929
The Martin family.

1134
01:06:33.849 --> 01:06:36.190
It's just that, you know, not that the Martin family

1135
01:06:36.250 --> 01:06:38.989
was perfect or that they didn't have their struggles, but

1136
01:06:39.510 --> 01:06:44.610
my God, the things that the people in this family

1137
01:06:44.690 --> 01:06:50.039
went through and then to have this be how you know,

1138
01:06:50.099 --> 01:06:53.659
how their stories end up to this point, at least.

1139
01:06:54.139 --> 01:06:57.519
I mean, I hope there's more. I hope that we

1140
01:06:57.559 --> 01:07:01.380
learn what's happened to them. But yeah, I mean, it's just,

1141
01:07:01.659 --> 01:07:05.739
it's devastating. At least in the case of the Martin family,

1142
01:07:05.780 --> 01:07:08.739
you can kind of be like, well, here's this happy

1143
01:07:08.780 --> 01:07:12.230
family and they're out, you know, it's an outing. And like,

1144
01:07:12.269 --> 01:07:15.369
that just feels like a totally different note to.

1145
01:07:15.389 --> 01:07:15.889
Yeah.

1146
01:07:16.690 --> 01:07:19.550
So like, it's such a tragedy. Like, I hate to

1147
01:07:19.590 --> 01:07:21.909
like compare things in that way.

1148
01:07:21.929 --> 01:07:26.030
No, they went into this. They were literally just trying

1149
01:07:26.050 --> 01:07:27.530
to improve their situation.

1150
01:07:27.550 --> 01:07:28.260
Yeah.

1151
01:07:28.840 --> 01:07:31.639
They were trying to like get on their feet before

1152
01:07:31.679 --> 01:07:34.739
they get knocked down again, probably based on how they

1153
01:07:34.780 --> 01:07:35.760
were living. Yeah.

1154
01:07:36.219 --> 01:07:37.639
I mean, that's that right there.

1155
01:07:37.659 --> 01:07:40.659
That's that's the thing is that it just feels like,

1156
01:07:41.320 --> 01:07:44.000
you know, my God, even if things had like turned

1157
01:07:44.039 --> 01:07:47.230
around for a second, it just feels like what was

1158
01:07:47.250 --> 01:07:51.070
the next kick in the pants? You know, like, oh,

1159
01:07:53.329 --> 01:07:57.030
I'm going to include this in the show notes. And

1160
01:07:57.050 --> 01:07:59.940
I don't expect anyone to scramble for a pen. And,

1161
01:08:00.199 --> 01:08:03.420
you know, please refer to the show notes if this

1162
01:08:03.500 --> 01:08:07.300
is applicable to you, if this is information that you

1163
01:08:07.360 --> 01:08:11.400
need to reference. But anyone with information about the Jack

1164
01:08:11.420 --> 01:08:16.140
family is asked to contact the Prince George RCMP at

1165
01:08:16.149 --> 01:08:17.920
250-561-3300 or Crime Stoppers anonymously at 1-800-222-8477.

1166
01:08:18.020 --> 01:08:19.979
The case file remains open.

1167
01:08:19.399 --> 01:08:24.340
With the Prince George RCMP Serious Crime section. Please someone

1168
01:08:24.399 --> 01:08:43.380
know something. And don't just know something and then not

1169
01:08:43.460 --> 01:08:46.539
tell anyone. You like see something, say something, you know.

1170
01:08:47.140 --> 01:08:51.899
But as these cases get older and remain unsolved, it

1171
01:08:52.010 --> 01:08:55.350
feels less and less likely that, you know, we're going

1172
01:08:55.369 --> 01:08:59.970
to get answers that help the family find anything resembling closeness.

1173
01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:04.399
How long did the Martin family, how long was it

1174
01:09:04.439 --> 01:09:07.989
between that and when they finally found that?

1175
01:09:08.670 --> 01:09:12.050
Even longer than this. They went missing, I want to say,

1176
01:09:12.989 --> 01:09:14.329
Let me see. Really quick.

1177
01:09:14.430 --> 01:09:15.449
Just for reference.

1178
01:09:15.810 --> 01:09:21.989
Because that is kind of hopeful, right? Like things come up.

1179
01:09:21.989 --> 01:09:23.689
1958.

1180
01:09:23.689 --> 01:09:25.670
Well, I don't remember when they actually found the car.

1181
01:09:25.710 --> 01:09:28.050
Wasn't that like... That's only recently.

1182
01:09:28.170 --> 01:09:28.770
And I.

1183
01:09:28.789 --> 01:09:30.010
Yeah.

1184
01:09:30.050 --> 01:09:33.529
You know, when they recovered the car, they still were

1185
01:09:33.609 --> 01:09:37.520
not like actively confirming that like this is for sure

1186
01:09:37.609 --> 01:09:40.800
them and this is for sure their car. But I

1187
01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:44.100
do remember reading an update that was like, I mean,

1188
01:09:44.180 --> 01:09:47.479
we are at like the 99 percentile.

1189
01:09:47.739 --> 01:09:48.939
Like, this is it.

1190
01:09:49.890 --> 01:09:50.739
That's the other thing.

1191
01:09:50.810 --> 01:09:53.189
I just feel like the more that time goes on,

1192
01:09:53.850 --> 01:09:59.729
it just becomes so difficult to actually like really nail down. Like,

1193
01:09:59.909 --> 01:10:02.170
is this for sure the car? Like, is this for

1194
01:10:02.210 --> 01:10:03.350
sure the family?

1195
01:10:03.449 --> 01:10:05.329
Like, hopefully we.

1196
01:10:05.250 --> 01:10:09.470
Have something that we can, you know, whether it's dental records, DNA,

1197
01:10:09.529 --> 01:10:14.180
but You know, some things are lost to time a

1198
01:10:14.460 --> 01:10:17.680
little bit. And I don't, you know, I don't want

1199
01:10:17.720 --> 01:10:21.130
to see that happen in a case that literally occurred

1200
01:10:21.170 --> 01:10:24.430
in my lifetime. I don't love it for cases that

1201
01:10:24.449 --> 01:10:28.729
happened before my lifetime. But, you know, there's something that

1202
01:10:28.750 --> 01:10:32.979
feels oddly personal about, you know, cases that have occurred

1203
01:10:33.720 --> 01:10:36.800
literally during your tenure on this rock.

1204
01:10:37.539 --> 01:10:37.960
Right.

1205
01:10:38.640 --> 01:10:39.760
It does hit different.

1206
01:10:40.649 --> 01:10:43.640
Like my final thoughts are if they do find them

1207
01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:47.600
someday or find the car they were in or something

1208
01:10:47.899 --> 01:10:50.819
like you still might not even know what actually happened

1209
01:10:51.260 --> 01:10:51.640
to them.

1210
01:10:52.880 --> 01:10:57.279
And that's kind of truth be told, like even with

1211
01:10:57.300 --> 01:11:00.529
the Martin family, it's like they can surmise a certain amount,

1212
01:11:00.609 --> 01:11:05.310
but it's like, that's just closure to any remaining family

1213
01:11:05.350 --> 01:11:08.029
that like, at least we know for sure that they're

1214
01:11:08.090 --> 01:11:09.909
not like still out there maybe.

1215
01:11:10.399 --> 01:11:13.319
But, like, what happened to them?

1216
01:11:13.619 --> 01:11:17.880
Like, I mean, they can only determine so much after

1217
01:11:17.939 --> 01:11:19.800
a car has sat at the bottom of a river

1218
01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:26.199
for over six decades. I hope that isn't the case here.

1219
01:11:26.220 --> 01:11:27.859
Yeah.

1220
01:11:27.890 --> 01:11:33.170
Truthfully. We are looking like a really sad bunch right now.

1221
01:11:33.250 --> 01:11:34.869
I know.

1222
01:11:35.010 --> 01:11:36.869
I have to say, that makes sense.

1223
01:11:37.189 --> 01:11:38.390
It's understandable.

1224
01:11:38.409 --> 01:11:38.479
But.

1225
01:11:40.789 --> 01:11:42.630
Should we tarot about.

1226
01:11:42.409 --> 01:11:47.250
It and see if that doesn't maybe leave us on

1227
01:11:47.369 --> 01:11:49.899
a slightly more positive note?

1228
01:11:50.649 --> 01:11:51.500
We could try.

1229
01:11:51.880 --> 01:11:57.500
Let's tarot. You're giving shuffling.

1230
01:11:58.720 --> 01:12:03.739
Okay, so Taylin, I've got these cards spread out.

1231
01:12:03.819 --> 01:12:08.539
Cassie is a veteran at the doing this over Riverside thing.

1232
01:12:08.640 --> 01:12:10.520
I've got it spread out in front of my keyboard.

1233
01:12:11.250 --> 01:12:13.529
So, and I do have a 10 key just for

1234
01:12:13.869 --> 01:12:14.989
technical purposes.

1235
01:12:15.090 --> 01:12:16.409
So. Okay.

1236
01:12:16.810 --> 01:12:18.350
You know, picture the length.

1237
01:12:19.270 --> 01:12:21.210
So do I just like say where I'm thinking you

1238
01:12:21.229 --> 01:12:22.750
need to pull? Yeah.

1239
01:12:22.810 --> 01:12:25.289
We kind of just, we kind of just get a

1240
01:12:25.350 --> 01:12:28.850
sense of like, are you feeling like a particular letter?

1241
01:12:29.470 --> 01:12:32.819
Are you feeling like a particular section of the deck?

1242
01:12:33.159 --> 01:12:36.500
Yes. Like a quarter in from your left.

1243
01:12:37.460 --> 01:12:38.060
Okay.

1244
01:12:38.119 --> 01:12:41.720
Like, yeah. A quarter length of the cards in. Whatever

1245
01:12:41.739 --> 01:12:43.399
that card is is where I'm feeling.

1246
01:12:43.420 --> 01:12:44.479
Okay.

1247
01:12:44.539 --> 01:12:49.689
Ooh, okay. Is this an accord? I'm in it.

1248
01:12:49.800 --> 01:12:50.159
Yeah.

1249
01:12:50.180 --> 01:12:50.399
Okay.

1250
01:12:50.819 --> 01:12:53.819
So this is in the reverse. I'm saying that on

1251
01:12:53.840 --> 01:12:56.029
the record now so that I don't forget it was

1252
01:12:56.270 --> 01:12:57.210
in the reverse.

1253
01:12:57.350 --> 01:12:57.590
Okay.

1254
01:12:58.409 --> 01:13:03.289
So this is, these are pentacles, but the pentacle design

1255
01:13:03.430 --> 01:13:04.329
is so pale.

1256
01:13:04.350 --> 01:13:10.500
Oh, okay. Seven of pentacles. There's some bees on there

1257
01:13:10.539 --> 01:13:11.399
and some flowers.

1258
01:13:11.739 --> 01:13:18.250
So seven of pentacles, our keywords are growth, accomplishment, commerce,

1259
01:13:18.710 --> 01:13:19.430
and appraisal.

1260
01:13:19.789 --> 01:13:23.529
That's really interesting. Commerce. I mean, that is interesting.

1261
01:13:24.670 --> 01:13:28.869
It certainly ties into the idea of, you know, you're

1262
01:13:29.680 --> 01:13:31.939
literally getting in a car, go and do a job.

1263
01:13:33.060 --> 01:13:36.239
Some tarot decks show a person examining a tree or

1264
01:13:36.340 --> 01:13:41.810
bush on which seven pentacles hang like ripe fruit. Thus

1265
01:13:41.869 --> 01:13:46.229
the seven of pentacles represents watching the seeds you planted mature.

1266
01:13:46.880 --> 01:13:50.119
An investment of time, energy, and or money is starting

1267
01:13:50.159 --> 01:13:53.619
to pay off and you're assessing the result. I want

1268
01:13:53.640 --> 01:13:56.750
to interpret that as like investment into the case.

1269
01:13:57.840 --> 01:14:01.000
And this is the upright meaning, right?

1270
01:14:01.100 --> 01:14:04.300
This is just kind of a general interpretation of like

1271
01:14:04.500 --> 01:14:11.029
the actual art of the card itself. The reversed interpretation

1272
01:14:11.109 --> 01:14:17.989
says the reverse seven often signifies anxiety, impatience, and concerns

1273
01:14:18.149 --> 01:14:19.010
about losses.

1274
01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:22.279
That seems right on to me.

1275
01:14:22.300 --> 01:14:22.539
Yeah.

1276
01:14:23.380 --> 01:14:26.380
You doubt you'll reach your goal. Or worry that the

1277
01:14:26.500 --> 01:14:28.979
outcome won't live up to your expectations.

1278
01:14:29.800 --> 01:14:33.420
Ooh, like telling your mom, was it his mom to

1279
01:14:33.460 --> 01:14:34.199
come look for him?

1280
01:14:34.220 --> 01:14:34.579
Yeah.

1281
01:14:35.239 --> 01:14:37.229
I feel like that just like takes me back to

1282
01:14:37.369 --> 01:14:41.770
literally our conversation. Like we hope that there is like

1283
01:14:41.970 --> 01:14:46.649
more and like how even if you get answers, there

1284
01:14:46.710 --> 01:14:50.430
still can be so many questions. And like it just

1285
01:14:51.180 --> 01:14:56.520
immediately that was like a thunderbolt, like, Sometimes this card

1286
01:14:56.619 --> 01:15:01.859
indicates procrastination or lack of enthusiasm needed to complete a project.

1287
01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:05.960
Does anyone need me to say where I think that?

1288
01:15:07.199 --> 01:15:12.199
Just with the case in general? The cops. Yeah.

1289
01:15:13.039 --> 01:15:15.960
In a reading about money, the reverse seven warns of

1290
01:15:16.079 --> 01:15:19.550
losses or setbacks. Even though you've put in a lot

1291
01:15:19.560 --> 01:15:22.670
of effort, you don't net the profits you feel you deserve.

1292
01:15:23.409 --> 01:15:27.170
Sometimes this card represents working too hard for what you earn.

1293
01:15:27.189 --> 01:15:30.020
Oh, wow.

1294
01:15:30.270 --> 01:15:32.720
I feel like so much of this relates to them

1295
01:15:32.779 --> 01:15:37.220
personally and the case, like their lives and like their.

1296
01:15:37.539 --> 01:15:37.800
Yeah.

1297
01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:40.239
I don't want to say deaths because we don't know.

1298
01:15:40.520 --> 01:15:41.640
But disappearance.

1299
01:15:42.260 --> 01:15:42.939
Yeah. Yeah.

1300
01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:43.619
Disappearance.

1301
01:15:43.739 --> 01:15:48.130
Even that part about the impatience earlier on. as you

1302
01:15:48.149 --> 01:15:50.710
were going through the case, I just kept thinking, I'm like,

1303
01:15:50.850 --> 01:15:53.149
they didn't even have, they didn't have the luxury of

1304
01:15:53.220 --> 01:15:57.600
time to stop and consider this job offer before taking it.

1305
01:15:58.100 --> 01:15:58.699
Honestly.

1306
01:15:58.720 --> 01:15:59.420
Yeah.

1307
01:16:00.180 --> 01:16:02.699
And I feel like that's such an important aspect of

1308
01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:05.880
the case because it's like the way that people who

1309
01:16:05.939 --> 01:16:12.260
have experienced just such extreme hardships and like a very

1310
01:16:12.359 --> 01:16:17.250
specific type of like, this is the desperation that like,

1311
01:16:18.760 --> 01:16:22.020
you can't stop and think about like, is this something

1312
01:16:22.199 --> 01:16:24.909
that's safe for me to do? And granted, in the 80s,

1313
01:16:25.460 --> 01:16:29.319
probably a lot of people who had totally different life

1314
01:16:29.399 --> 01:16:33.050
experience would have said like, oh, this is fine. You know,

1315
01:16:33.069 --> 01:16:39.189
hitchhiking was still, you know, common to a degree. And

1316
01:16:40.069 --> 01:16:41.949
I mean, that really is it, though. You don't have

1317
01:16:41.989 --> 01:16:45.729
the luxury of time to stop and consider these things. And,

1318
01:16:46.470 --> 01:16:51.060
you know, It's all part of the circumstances, like honestly,

1319
01:16:51.140 --> 01:16:56.180
completely outside their control. If the reading is about your job,

1320
01:16:56.500 --> 01:17:00.399
you may not get the recognition or rewards you'd expected.

1321
01:17:00.430 --> 01:17:03.739
I don't know, maybe like a back injury or something.

1322
01:17:05.149 --> 01:17:09.310
Perhaps you fear someone is trying to undermine you. Obstacles

1323
01:17:09.369 --> 01:17:12.069
and delays may occur or a project may not turn

1324
01:17:12.130 --> 01:17:13.510
out as well as you'd hoped.

1325
01:17:14.510 --> 01:17:15.909
Oh, interesting. Okay.

1326
01:17:16.960 --> 01:17:21.060
In a reading about love, this card can show distrust, suspicion,

1327
01:17:21.289 --> 01:17:25.770
or fears about a relationship's stability or a partner's loyalty.

1328
01:17:26.970 --> 01:17:30.229
Whether or not it's true, you feel insecure and worry

1329
01:17:30.250 --> 01:17:34.840
that a partner's affection is dwindling. I don't know. I mean,

1330
01:17:34.899 --> 01:17:37.279
I feel like there's a lot there to kind of

1331
01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:40.479
parse out to so many aspects of the case.

1332
01:17:41.340 --> 01:17:44.649
Yeah, it's hard to say, though, because we don't exactly know, like,

1333
01:17:45.239 --> 01:17:48.149
their relationship. I know you said she may have, he

1334
01:17:48.189 --> 01:17:51.649
may have been hitting her, but we don't really know

1335
01:17:51.729 --> 01:17:53.029
for sure. Yeah.

1336
01:17:53.470 --> 01:17:55.529
It's interesting what comes up in the card though.

1337
01:17:55.810 --> 01:17:56.090
Yeah.

1338
01:17:57.409 --> 01:18:00.560
It really upset me to feel like I didn't want

1339
01:18:00.619 --> 01:18:06.260
to not acknowledge like that there were very specific examples

1340
01:18:07.340 --> 01:18:13.550
of abuse at like multiple points in specifically Doreen's life

1341
01:18:13.600 --> 01:18:19.710
that I'm like, I feel so conflicted because some of

1342
01:18:19.750 --> 01:18:22.140
this is just not going to be something that I

1343
01:18:22.189 --> 01:18:27.479
could like really feel like I could verify, but to

1344
01:18:27.520 --> 01:18:32.520
like not share it based on, you know, these are

1345
01:18:32.659 --> 01:18:36.060
like accounts that have been shared by people that loved

1346
01:18:36.279 --> 01:18:40.550
this family. And so like to not share it feels

1347
01:18:40.649 --> 01:18:43.390
kind of disingenuous in a way. And it feels like you're,

1348
01:18:44.060 --> 01:18:46.779
leaving out a part of what might have been their

1349
01:18:47.229 --> 01:18:49.810
experience up to that point I'm like.

1350
01:18:49.670 --> 01:18:53.800
Yeah making the family look more perfect to like garner

1351
01:18:53.840 --> 01:18:58.020
more sympathy or because it's easier to package for right media,

1352
01:18:58.270 --> 01:19:01.159
which by the way, like that whole thing about it,

1353
01:19:01.210 --> 01:19:03.310
not hitting the region where they actually went missing. I

1354
01:19:03.930 --> 01:19:06.569
don't know enough about crime stoppers, but does that not

1355
01:19:06.609 --> 01:19:11.340
feel like maybe more of their perspective? priority was the

1356
01:19:11.399 --> 01:19:13.819
media of it all. Like that does kind of almost

1357
01:19:13.859 --> 01:19:16.039
feel like it was for entertainment of the people that

1358
01:19:16.079 --> 01:19:21.060
don't live in that region or in that area that

1359
01:19:21.819 --> 01:19:24.149
does not sit right. It doesn't feel like an accident.

1360
01:19:24.199 --> 01:19:28.510
It feels like an oversight because that priority was completely different.

1361
01:19:29.489 --> 01:19:33.550
Well, and so what I'm wondering, actually, I'm going to

1362
01:19:33.590 --> 01:19:35.609
go back to that paragraph.

1363
01:19:35.789 --> 01:19:36.090
Okay.

1364
01:19:36.130 --> 01:19:40.890
So the following year, so this is, after it's the

1365
01:19:40.949 --> 01:19:44.590
year after they falsely reported the family had been found.

1366
01:19:44.729 --> 01:19:49.010
So that was reported like basically a month after they

1367
01:19:49.050 --> 01:19:52.710
went missing that they were found the following year, a

1368
01:19:53.090 --> 01:19:57.649
televised crime stoppers reenactment of the disappearance was broadcast on

1369
01:19:58.149 --> 01:19:59.329
Prince George.

1370
01:19:59.090 --> 01:20:02.979
Station, KPG dash TV.

1371
01:20:03.909 --> 01:20:08.630
But that station whose signal was, it was the station

1372
01:20:09.090 --> 01:20:13.029
that their signal didn't reach the geographic area where the

1373
01:20:13.069 --> 01:20:16.939
family was believed to have vanished. And so part of

1374
01:20:17.020 --> 01:20:20.279
me wonders, and it's like, it's so hard because it

1375
01:20:21.899 --> 01:20:25.359
would be hard, I think, especially like Canada is like,

1376
01:20:25.899 --> 01:20:30.119
just like us where like geographically, it's just so large.

1377
01:20:30.899 --> 01:20:34.170
It would be hard for like, even today to find

1378
01:20:34.329 --> 01:20:38.750
out like, You know, is this going to be broadcast.

1379
01:20:37.989 --> 01:20:38.680
Here, here or here?

1380
01:20:38.699 --> 01:20:40.539
And like to go back to like 1989 and like

1381
01:20:40.680 --> 01:20:52.159
be able to like reliably determine like. I'm struggling to

1382
01:20:52.229 --> 01:20:54.189
like put it into words, but I feel like there's

1383
01:20:54.229 --> 01:20:56.670
certain things where it's like, it's these like little details

1384
01:20:56.710 --> 01:20:59.649
where I'm like, okay, so like, why wasn't it broadcast

1385
01:20:59.729 --> 01:21:03.090
out there? Cause I think my question would be is like,

1386
01:21:03.250 --> 01:21:05.989
did they live someplace that was so rural that like,

1387
01:21:06.189 --> 01:21:09.250
even though they're like kind of in the Prince George area,

1388
01:21:09.750 --> 01:21:15.149
they like don't get reliable signal. And so is that like,

1389
01:21:15.350 --> 01:21:19.460
is that like kind of not on the, Crime Stoppers

1390
01:21:19.739 --> 01:21:23.460
or even the Prince George Station?

1391
01:21:23.479 --> 01:21:24.920
I don't know.

1392
01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:25.380
Gotcha.

1393
01:21:25.619 --> 01:21:28.689
Like, and I feel like the further you go back

1394
01:21:28.739 --> 01:21:32.710
and try to like determine something like that super specific,

1395
01:21:33.789 --> 01:21:35.409
it's like next to impossible.

1396
01:21:36.050 --> 01:21:36.550
Gotcha.

1397
01:21:36.949 --> 01:21:37.810
I really don't know.

1398
01:21:37.829 --> 01:21:40.609
I feel like it's such a valid question. And I'm like,

1399
01:21:41.229 --> 01:21:45.260
you know, maybe that's something you could like really nail

1400
01:21:45.300 --> 01:21:48.520
down and like you could really try to track down

1401
01:21:48.659 --> 01:21:51.159
records and things that like would help you to like

1402
01:21:51.479 --> 01:21:54.560
have a fuller picture of that. But I'm like, my God,

1403
01:21:54.600 --> 01:21:57.689
I mean, the man hours that you could spend on

1404
01:21:57.750 --> 01:22:00.689
something like that. And that's part of why it's frustrating

1405
01:22:00.770 --> 01:22:05.750
because it's like, how much of this is like an

1406
01:22:05.829 --> 01:22:11.069
intentional or like a systemic issue where it's like, this

1407
01:22:11.939 --> 01:22:17.359
is really icky because it's like the system working actively

1408
01:22:17.439 --> 01:22:20.420
against the family in a way, or like, is this

1409
01:22:20.960 --> 01:22:23.359
just an unfortunate circumstance?

1410
01:22:24.140 --> 01:22:25.220
Do you see what I'm like?

1411
01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:25.319
Yeah.

1412
01:22:26.050 --> 01:22:28.529
Yeah. There's so much of that with this one.

1413
01:22:28.569 --> 01:22:30.470
I feel like, and I feel like that's exactly where

1414
01:22:30.569 --> 01:22:33.430
my head goes to where I'm like, well, okay.

1415
01:22:33.470 --> 01:22:34.829
So like, who's to blame for that?

1416
01:22:34.930 --> 01:22:37.449
And like, and I'm like, it might not even be

1417
01:22:37.529 --> 01:22:41.029
like a who in terms of like a particular organization

1418
01:22:41.109 --> 01:22:45.159
or agency. It might just be that like, does like,

1419
01:22:45.180 --> 01:22:49.430
is it possible they just don't have like TV signal

1420
01:22:49.569 --> 01:22:53.989
that's specific for that channel? Like, I, I don't know

1421
01:22:54.329 --> 01:22:57.989
that maybe that's a reach on my part. Part of me,

1422
01:22:58.590 --> 01:23:01.350
part of me kind of wants to believe that I think,

1423
01:23:01.430 --> 01:23:04.210
and maybe that's, maybe that's, you know, the problem.

1424
01:23:04.229 --> 01:23:06.930
Well, that's a good point though. Cause I've, I've been

1425
01:23:06.970 --> 01:23:10.069
in rural areas where you, the signal comes in kind

1426
01:23:10.090 --> 01:23:13.409
of for these channels that are supposed to be local

1427
01:23:13.449 --> 01:23:15.319
and you're supposed to like every tv is supposed to

1428
01:23:15.359 --> 01:23:18.560
get them but like if you step too hard on

1429
01:23:18.600 --> 01:23:20.979
the floor next to the tv it shifts whatever and

1430
01:23:21.020 --> 01:23:22.899
it just you don't have it anymore.

1431
01:23:22.960 --> 01:23:25.119
Rocks the bunny ears yeah exactly.

1432
01:23:25.819 --> 01:23:30.649
Thinking back to like 1989 rural canada like is that

1433
01:23:30.819 --> 01:23:34.489
a factor i don't know i'm just pissed at all

1434
01:23:34.529 --> 01:23:38.029
of the people and entities that failed this family and

1435
01:23:38.170 --> 01:23:41.039
even before their disappearance yeah So I'm just wanting to

1436
01:23:41.060 --> 01:23:44.989
blame everyone. It's hard not to just be like angry

1437
01:23:45.029 --> 01:23:49.689
in the direction of anybody that might possibly be responsible

1438
01:23:49.869 --> 01:23:54.029
in some way when you see how systemic the failures are.

1439
01:23:54.180 --> 01:23:56.619
And I think that's like, to me, I'm like, I

1440
01:23:58.960 --> 01:23:59.960
feel that so hard.

1441
01:23:59.979 --> 01:24:02.260
And I'm like, I want there to be a different

1442
01:24:02.399 --> 01:24:03.500
like answer for it.

1443
01:24:04.119 --> 01:24:07.949
You know, I'm like, please tell me they just don't like,

1444
01:24:08.430 --> 01:24:11.149
Rabbit ears don't pick up the station.

1445
01:24:11.180 --> 01:24:12.460
Yeah. Yeah.

1446
01:24:13.600 --> 01:24:16.760
Well, should we say our goodbye, goodbye?

1447
01:24:16.779 --> 01:24:17.520
Goodbye, goodbye.

1448
01:24:18.199 --> 01:24:21.760
Have a creepy ass day. We'll see you next Thursday.

1449
01:24:22.779 --> 01:24:24.579
Unless you're a weird bearded stranger.

1450
01:24:24.600 --> 01:24:27.380
I was literally just going to say.

1451
01:24:27.399 --> 01:24:27.479
Yeah.

1452
01:24:28.640 --> 01:24:32.279
No strange men, please. No serious men, please.

1453
01:24:32.359 --> 01:24:33.069
No men, please.

1454
01:24:33.829 --> 01:24:34.329
Right.

1455
01:24:35.649 --> 01:24:36.810
No, we're full up.

1456
01:24:36.850 --> 01:24:37.810
We're at our quota.

1457
01:24:38.319 --> 01:24:40.539
Unless you're listening and you're cool and you like us,

1458
01:24:40.579 --> 01:24:41.520
that's fine, I guess.

1459
01:24:43.020 --> 01:24:46.220
We've heard from like real four of you.

1460
01:24:51.100 --> 01:24:56.100
That could easily pass as like a kind of slurred.

1461
01:24:56.119 --> 01:24:57.539
It's both.

1462
01:24:57.699 --> 01:25:05.350
It's all of the above. The important part is the ween. Obviously. Obviously.

1463
01:25:05.369 --> 01:25:06.890
It's always the ween.