Aug. 5, 2025

Vanished: The Jami Sue Hagel Sherer Case (Part 2)

Vanished: The Jami Sue Hagel Sherer Case (Part 2)
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What happens when a controlling husband not only silences his wife — but continues to terrorize her loved ones, even from behind bars?

By the end of September 1990, 26-year-old Microsoft employee and young mother Jami Sue Hagel Sherer had vanished from Redmond, Washington. Her family, friends, and coworkers searched desperately for answers, and Microsoft even posted a reward to help locate her.

But while the community scoured the area for Jami, her husband, Steve Sherer, showed little interest in helping. Just days after her disappearance, he became preoccupied with having his car detailed, staged a suicide attempt, and eventually threatened investigators and prosecutors as the case against him began to build.

In Part Two, we follow the years-long investigation that finally brought Steve Sherer to justice. From the incriminating evidence found in his possession to the testimony that unraveled his story, prosecutors built a case strong enough to convict Steve of Jami’s murder — even without her body.

But the story didn’t end with his 60-year sentence. Even behind bars, Steve wasn’t finished. What he plotted from prison would leave investigators stunned — and Jami’s family in even greater danger.

Listen now to Part Two of this haunting case as we uncover the investigation, trial, and the shocking twist that proved Steve Sherer’s reign of terror didn’t end with his conviction.

Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! If you have any true crime, paranormal, or witchy stories you'd like to share with us & possibly have them read (out loud) on an episode, email us atpnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com or use thislink. There are so many ways that you can support the show:BuyMeACoffee,Spreaker,or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts. Sources

WEBVTT

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Anyways, I just thought it was funny because it's like,

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here are these dogs and they're saying, like, if they

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could talk. I know. This is the part of the

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book where I really felt like, okay, all right, I'm

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with Anne Rule here on this, because she was talking

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about if the dogs could talk, they basically would be

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like the husband did.

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It obviously, you know, dog guys.

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I mean, they might as well pointed at Steve and said,

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how told are you against?

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Hi? Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi, creepy people. Hello, Hello, We're still.

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Waving even though you can't see us.

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That's okay.

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I'm still periodically making eye contact with the camera. You

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don't realize how hard of a habit that is to wreak.

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And until you're trying.

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My camera's not even up and I keep looking over

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that there's not even a camera.

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She's just, oh, you're like Charlie today, just staring off

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into the middle distance at nothing.

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That's me. I am an old dog.

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This is PNW Hants and Homicides, where we chat about

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true crime, the paranormal and sometimes old dogs and crumpets

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and orange marmalade and elderflower.

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Right is it?

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Elderflower ulderflower. For a second, I was like, shit, is

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it elderberry?

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Either way, we are in the Pacific Northwest, which is

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the PNWF nasty flower because it has petals.

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Oh yeah, elderflower, olderflower. Enchant your palette with delicate elderflower

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noes beautifully balanced, vibrant flavors of ripe pineapple and juicy pomegranate.

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But just flavors of not actual pineapple, so you're not

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gonna die.

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The crisp a vessels adds a refreshing lift, making each

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sip a bright and lively celebration of fruit and bloom.

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I'm Caitlin's birthday.

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This is NPR Happy Birthday, Caitlyn.

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It is in fact her actual birthday to day as

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we record it is and we're finally together. If you

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didn't hear us, you know, I woke up and I

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was like, what time is it? What day is it?

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And where should I be right now? Because I was

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a little bit afraid that I was supposed to be

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at work.

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It's weird. It's weird to have a day off in

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the middle of the week when you're not used to it. Yeah,

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it was nice though.

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Chris made me eggs eggs eggs because here's the thing,

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as I can scramble an egg like nobody's business, but

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eggs sunny side up, that's all him. Take some skills,

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but they taste better when somebody makes them for you.

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And it's your birthday. Yeah, yeah. Does your tea taste

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better when someone brings it to you? Yeah? I know.

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We were talking about how you can only use your

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Starbucks drink like for your birthday on your birthday?

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Oh, you only on your actual birthday?

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Yeah, because last year I missed it.

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Really yeah, oh you're well, you're gonna have to get

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another one today.

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I know. That's what Chris was saying. He's like, well,

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obviously we have to go and hit up Starbucks on

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the way to something like.

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That's funny.

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I guess I didn't realize that you had to use

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it on your birthday because I could.

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You go all the time.

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Yeah, I was just like, it's my birthday one. It's like, yeah, okay,

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here we go. But yeah, I know, okay. I was

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gonna say one other thing.

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We are camera lists today because we just we got

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shit to and we didn't feel like getting ready and

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we needed to be fast.

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Well, and you have to take your camera with you today,

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So it's it's a whole. It's also a production to

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take all of this equipment apart.

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I'm shooting a wedding soon. But I wore a themed

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ash shirt today. I wore my Twilight shirt with Bella

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and Edward on it. Do you know why not?

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No long theme for I'm very curious. It's part two

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of this, the toxicity. Oh okay, I kind of I

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figured that must be where you were going with this,

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but I was like, I'm gonna let.

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Her finish the toxic relationship.

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Yeah, no, that's fair.

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Yes, yeah. I could see Edward calling Bella every fifteen

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minutes to see where she's at.

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God, can you imagine? Jeez, God, not for me, it's

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just too much.

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I can't, simply can't.

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I just watch had Twilight marathon. Very lazy, lazy, like

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said my birthday celebration. I was like, I don't feel

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like doing shit. We're just gonna literally watch all five

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movies in one night.

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Oh my god, that's so much. That was great. Yeah,

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I love torturing my friends. I should have made you

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come over.

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It's your birthday, so that's what you do. But I

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was sick on my birthday. I know you.

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I didn't want to infect you.

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You were already surrounded by the Petri dish that got

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to you. So yes, yeah, so we just laid in

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a Petri dish and watched. Well, should we talk about

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the actual serious, toxic relationship that we are, right?

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I need to hear the.

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Rest of the story. Yes you do, yep. So before

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we get into part two, I'm just going to give

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everyone a super short recap of part one. It's not

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an excuse to not listen to part one because this

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is not going to cover everything.

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So if you.

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Haven't done, if you didn't listen to that one first,

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you go go to listen to that.

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Yeah, it won't even be close. I can tell you

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right now.

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Yep. By the end of September nineteen ninety, twenty six

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year old Jamie Sue Heigelsher, a Microsoft employee and loving

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mother from Redmond, Washington, has gone missing. Those closest to

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her said she had resolved to leave her abusive and

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controlling husband, Steve Scher, after years of escalating threats, manipulation,

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and violence. After telling her mother she was ending the

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marriage and meeting Steve to collect her belongings and her purse.

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Jamie vanished. Her Mazda RX seven was later found abandoned

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near a church with her Duffel bag inside. Despite extensive searches,

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Steve showed little interest in locating his missing wife, attempting

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suicide days later before quickly retaining a prominent criminal defense attorney.

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No notes, Just that's how you'd do that, yeah. Her parents,

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Jerry and Judy Heigel, were granted custody of her young son, Chris.

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With no sign of Jamie for nearly seven years, she

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was sadly legally declared dead. Judy's forceful, earnest desire for

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answers prompted investigators to revisit the case and examine long

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standing suspicions surrounding Steve. Say that seven times fast, suspicious?

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Steve?

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Yeah, long standing suspicions surrounding Steve Yeah, who wrote that?

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You said it good? The first time? I know I did.

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Both Jamie's loved ones and law enforcement believed that there

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were a number of details, both new and old, that

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seemed suspicious and were perhaps worth a second look. Like

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in early October, just days after Jamie disappeared, Judy recalled

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Steve suddenly becoming preoccupied with the I'm gonna call it

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cosmetic maintenance of his vehicle. She couldn't help but wonder

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why a man with a missing wife would be so

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concerned about getting his car detailed.

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I mean, I could think of a couple of reasons why.

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Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Ugh. She overheard him making a

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call about it, and Steve provided a lame excuse that

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didn't pass the sniff test with Judy. He basically was like, oh,

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my car smells real bad. And she was like, I

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was literally just in your car, and I don't believe you,

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and you're a piece of shit.

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And he was like, man, I'm a man's do it

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our wall.

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Yeah, you're not wrong. While we're on the topics of

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sniffing and cars, let's revisit the scent dogs that law

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enforcement had engaged in the search for Jamie. You see,

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when they took some of Jamie's clothes in a laundry hamper,

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there was at least one pair of pants belonging to

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Steve in the mix. The scent dogs were showing disinterest

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in Jamie's scent when it came to her car, but

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it's believed that when they tracked a scent to a

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bus stop on I five before suddenly stopping. This was

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a telltale sign that what they were tracking was indeed

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Steve's scent.

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Oh okay, tilted in my head like a dog when

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you were saying all that, and I was like, so

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does that mean she wasn't in her car? If they

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like were losing interest.

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Or smart cookies, not just a hat.

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Breath this one. But they were also smelling him too.

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Right because their closer Well here, I'll just tell you, okay,

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the theory being that Steve had left Jamie's masta there

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at the church before boarding a bus or getting another ride.

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This also clicked into place seeing as the last driver

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of her car had clearly been taller than her, but

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not significantly so only.

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Six and Cha said he was five six five seven.

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I don't know why you thought, you know, I just

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listened to the episode, you guys, damn it.

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Yeah.

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So, I mean, basically what that indicates is if they're

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not alerting for Jamie sent in connection with her car,

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but they are like tracking a sad and the assumption

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is that they're they're picking up his scent, and they're like, well, obviously,

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if they're not tracking Jamie's scent or they're not indicating

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that they're you know, finding her in relation.

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To the car.

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It's because she's not the person that left her car there, Yeah,

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which is really important just because it kind of clarifies that, no,

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she didn't just decide to go missing, right. I mean,

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this is you know, not that that was necessarily something

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that law enforcement was you know, pushing. It seems like

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they took the family seriously, you know, pretty much right

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out the gate.

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But they made proof and this is like proof that

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someone else at least was involved exactly something.

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And they and they need that so that it's giving

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them more to go on, giving them another avenue to explore.

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And I feel like to some degree, you kind of

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have to be open to really almost any theory as

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much as like the family would be you know saying

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in a lot of missing persons cases, like they would

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never do this, you know, they didn't just abandon their life.

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Law enforcement has to consider that a possibility, I think

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until kind of proven otherwise.

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She never really know what's in someone else's head. As

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much as you think you know somebody exactly, you really

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don't know, right, No.

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I mean, I mean even people that think they know

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each other very well. Obviously are surprised by the things

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that people do. So anyways, I just thought it was

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funny because it's like, here are these dogs and they're saying, like,

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if they could talk. I know. This is the part

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of the book where I really felt like, Okay, all right,

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I'm with Anne Rule here on this, because she was

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talking about if the dogs could talk, they basically would

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be like the husband did it obviously, you know, guys,

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I mean, they might as well pointed at Steve and said,

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how told.

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Are you against give Steve.

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It's funny too that he will whoever left the car

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they're didn't think to like pull the seat forward or

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they never do. Yeah, not a details, guy. Still, neither

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of these details was going to be the basis of

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their case against Steve. It was something, but not quite enough.

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It's like, okay, yeah, the seat is positioned for somebody

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about his height. You know, they're picking up you know,

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it seems like.

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Probably his send.

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But it's it's very like it's not not evidence, maybe,

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but it's very it's tenuous, it's circumstantial. Yeah, so they

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needed more a lot more.

231
00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:49.559
Well.

232
00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:53.759
As it turns out, Steve was as generous a guy

233
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.519
as he was, fall little because he was going to

234
00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:57.080
help them.

235
00:12:57.639 --> 00:12:59.639
I was like, he was being generous.

236
00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:06.159
Yeah, I mean I think it was unintentional, but yeah.

237
00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.960
Lieutenant James Taylor had given Steve his business card at

238
00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:14.480
some point amidst the investigation being revitalized, and was surprised

239
00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:18.720
to learn that he'd kept it. Apparently, Steve was none

240
00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:23.159
too pleased about how the investigation was progressing, which he

241
00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:26.279
voiced in no uncertain terms to the lieutenant.

242
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.720
H weird. I wonder why he wasn't a fan of it.

243
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.000
I know, so weird.

244
00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.279
Steve had clearly been able to buy, charm or bully

245
00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.919
his way out of any number of situations in his

246
00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.480
life up to this point. His first call to Taylor

247
00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:45.480
went like this, Hey, Lieutenant dickhead, now that I'm out,

248
00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:47.799
why don't you come fuck with me now, you piece

249
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:52.399
of shit? And he hung up. Oh wow, okay, yeah,

250
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:57.440
very mature, right, Yeah, I mean we've established that he

251
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:01.240
is a he's a real big man, angry like five

252
00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.200
year old girl decapitating dollheads.

253
00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:05.039
So yeah.

254
00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:08.480
This was followed up by another call from Steve because

255
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.480
you know, obviously we know he likes to make multiple calls.

256
00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:13.399
Is your refrigerator running?

257
00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:21.200
I just I honestly, I thought about the stupid like

258
00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:25.440
prank calls and stuff that people make, and this feels

259
00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:30.360
so much stupider than that, Like it's it's real, they're

260
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:35.120
not jokes, but it's so dumb, Like stay stupid, dude.

261
00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:40.440
Oh okay, So his next call, he said, I want

262
00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:42.919
you to stop messing with me. If you don't have

263
00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.639
the investigators back off, I'm going to go out and

264
00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:47.159
cut someone's fucking throat.

265
00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:50.279
Dude, Like, how how do you think that's gonna help

266
00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:51.120
your situation?

267
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:53.679
You know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna call a

268
00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:55.879
cop and threaten someone's life.

269
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:57.399
That can't be illegal.

270
00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:02.240
That won't be a problem. Lovely. As those conversations were,

271
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:07.720
Steve wasn't quite done, because of course he's not Steve.

272
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:10.440
Sussy Steve.

273
00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:15.200
He called Marilyn Brenneman, one of the prosecutors working with

274
00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:18.360
law enforcement on the case at the time. She wasn't

275
00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:23.000
in her office, so he left her a voicemail evidence

276
00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:30.639
evidence exhibit A, your honor A for us. This is

277
00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:34.240
Steve Shearer, identifying himself by first and last name.

278
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:35.600
Do you spell it out?

279
00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:42.279
Not social Security is data birth. I'm out now and

280
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:45.000
I want to talk to you. You better call me back.

281
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.559
I want what's mine. I want my wife's car back,

282
00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:50.960
I want her ring back, I want it all back.

283
00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:53.360
I'm not going to go away. You better not fuck

284
00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:55.919
with me. It's my turn to fuck with you. You'd

285
00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.679
better call me back. There was a short pause, and

286
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.000
then he said, have a good life.

287
00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:05.639
Have a good life. But you want her to call

288
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:11.919
you back, so you'll you'll talk. Also, is he wanting

289
00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:13.759
the ring back that he reported missing?

290
00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:19.120
Listen, I think the jig was already up with the ring.

291
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:23.360
It doesn't look like they ever actually like face any

292
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:24.519
consequences for that.

293
00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.960
But but he's just like fully like admitting that.

294
00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.480
The I mean, she's definitely at a certain point, like

295
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:35.080
she got a replacement ring, so okay, okay, okay, but

296
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:40.679
it I mean, spoiler alert, it was the original ring.

297
00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:44.000
Okay, so but still, oh my god, that would be

298
00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.120
so funny if I know that's.

299
00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:48.200
How they get him for the for the insurance broad

300
00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:51.480
and we're slapping this on too, I know, wouldn't that

301
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:55.639
be nice? Don't worry, they'll have another opportunity. What Steve

302
00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.919
did there is what those in the biz call a

303
00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:04.960
no no you were sometimes a felony. At the time,

304
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.000
Steve had been released from jail just about a month prior.

305
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:12.039
Hopefully he hadn't gotten too comfortable back at home, because

306
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:17.279
threatening a public official with bodily harm is against the law.

307
00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:19.119
Nice he turns out, was.

308
00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:20.839
He trying to go back because he's like, I'm out now,

309
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.200
I don't know what to do. I was threatening everyone

310
00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:25.519
to try to get back in jail. Honestly, I have

311
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.680
zero plans this weekend, and I really don't feel like cooking.

312
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:33.799
These angry outbursts would lead to his arrest on June

313
00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:37.319
twenty third, nineteen ninety one. When he went.

314
00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:38.000
Before a judge.

315
00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:41.400
His bail was set at thirty thousand dollars, and for once,

316
00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:44.599
he apparently didn't have the means to at least buy

317
00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:47.359
his way out of a problem in the short term.

318
00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:49.880
Mommy didn't help well.

319
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:54.400
At that point, he was actually out on bail already

320
00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:57.200
for traffic offenses from another jurisdiction.

321
00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:58.799
Oh my lord.

322
00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.880
Eventually, his family came through with bail money, and Steve

323
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.720
moved in with his mother to her Mill Creek homb

324
00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:12.279
How you're already out on bail, sir sor oh.

325
00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.279
My god, like and then to have your mom have

326
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:18.799
to come up with all this bail money like again seriously,

327
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:19.920
like more bail money?

328
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:25.200
Yeah for this fucking kid, this guy, wow, this begging gay.

329
00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.039
By early nineteen ninety two, the team was ready to

330
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.799
arrest Steve, but he did not show up for his

331
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:36.599
appointment with his probation officer, which is not funny. The

332
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.799
don't do that. That's how you get arrested. But the

333
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:45.519
authorities monitored the area around Steve's mother's home in Mill Creek.

334
00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.160
All police agencies were asked to have their personnel watch

335
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:53.920
for him. In the meantime, the FBI sat on his

336
00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:58.079
mother's house and when one of Steve's dumbass friends stop

337
00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.759
by for a visit, they literally just stormed the door

338
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:03.359
as Steve opened it.

339
00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:05.480
To his pal.

340
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:10.759
And you know also along with some other uninvited guests.

341
00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:12.119
Did they have a warrant?

342
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:15.640
Well, here's the thing is, like, he wouldn't have answered

343
00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:17.599
the door if he thought it was law enforcement. Right,

344
00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:22.240
of course, Steve was arrested without any major incident. It

345
00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:25.160
had been just over nine years since his wife Jamie

346
00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:29.160
had disappeared, and Steve was finally in custody. It wasn't

347
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.319
the finish line, but certainly a huge wave of relief

348
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:35.359
for those closest to the case. His bail was set

349
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:38.759
at a million dollars, all but ensuring that he would

350
00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:42.319
remain in custody throughout the duration of the proceedings.

351
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:44.680
Snap, Mama's not dropping a mill.

352
00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:48.200
That's like, you have to put your house up for

353
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.559
collateral in a situation like that. Shit probably put his

354
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:57.400
house up, right, Well, where'd that house go? I don't know.

355
00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:02.440
I would assume that, you know, there's right of survivorship

356
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.680
for that, so I would assume that, you know, probably

357
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:10.640
that came into his possession. Realistically, they were married, bought

358
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:11.400
the house together.

359
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:13.640
Not that I want him to get out.

360
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:16.720
No, no, But I do wonder about that because that

361
00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:19.160
was one thing where I didn't really see a ton

362
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.319
where it was talked about, like what ended up happening

363
00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:24.200
to their family home. I do find.

364
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:28.160
Those pieces are It's interesting. I wonder if, like the

365
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.599
mom sold it for the bail money. Maybe.

366
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.839
After a search warrant was executed on Sherry Steve's mother's

367
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.200
home in mid April, there were some items that had

368
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.759
been listed within the warrant that had not been recovered,

369
00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.839
and Steve's trial was set for May. In general, I

370
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:53.359
don't think it's nice to be little people that may

371
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.920
be lacking in terms of intelligence. It's not the kind

372
00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:01.519
thing to do. But it is the thing that I

373
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:04.920
am about to do, and I don't feel.

374
00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:07.000
Bad about it. Well, some people deserve it. Yeah.

375
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:12.200
Steve's mother, Sherry, did eventually locate them and told his attorney,

376
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.240
Pete Mayer that she didn't really want to turn them

377
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:16.720
over to law enforcement.

378
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:18.440
They're on the warrant.

379
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:22.440
Yeah, well, so he informed her that as an officer

380
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:27.200
of the court, it was literally his duty to do

381
00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:32.039
just that, like he's defense counsel. But he's still bound

382
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:32.960
by the law.

383
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:36.160
Why would she even tell him? I found these but

384
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:38.559
I think I want to give them to you? So

385
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:39.839
I what?

386
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:43.640
Once again, I say, I don't feel good about making

387
00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:49.960
fun of people's intellectual deficits on the whole. But wasn't

388
00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:50.880
the smart move here?

389
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.119
No, I mean I'd rather hurt.

390
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.279
It worked out for the best. It worked out for

391
00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.799
the best. And here's the thing is I get loving

392
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:04.000
your kids no matter what. But Sherry, girl, this is

393
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:09.839
a homicide case, like love him from jail. Maybe that's

394
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.799
where he belongs.

395
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:14.039
Maybe like that was kind of her like reasoning, or

396
00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:16.680
maybe maybe it was like subconscious where it's like, I

397
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:19.799
don't want to give these up because it's my son,

398
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:21.119
but I know like.

399
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:24.400
That I should. He was gonna give it to the

400
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.319
lawyer because she knows that he has to. I don't know.

401
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:30.279
I don't know. It's hard to say, because I feel

402
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.319
that was the thought that I had. But given how

403
00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:38.079
much it seems like she had enabled him, you know,

404
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:41.759
all like all throughout his life leading up to this,

405
00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:44.559
it kind of seemed more like, I don't really want

406
00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.640
to turn these over because it probably wouldn't be good.

407
00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:50.319
And the lawyer's like, well, then you're done fucked up,

408
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:55.240
Miguel AnyWho. I'm not sure that it's ever been confirmed

409
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:58.400
so far as I'm aware, whether Sherry knew exactly what

410
00:22:58.599 --> 00:22:59.960
she had just given the authority.

411
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:03.559
It was just a suitcase. Uh oh.

412
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.519
But if I were a betting man, I'd say, maybe

413
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:10.599
she took a peek. I don't know, Maybe she's not

414
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:11.599
that kind of mom.

415
00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:13.319
How could you not take a piece?

416
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:16.720
How could you not and you know it's specifically listed

417
00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:21.119
in the warrant. The content of Steve's blue suitcase were

418
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:26.240
varied various black lingerie that had belonged to Jamie. Those

419
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:29.039
items had one thing in common with a good many

420
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.480
of the others. Most of them had belonged to Jamie.

421
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:36.079
There were her night shirts with QT frases like supermom,

422
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:41.559
the couple's matching bowling shirts, even a key to her masta,

423
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:46.279
which is really important because oh, you had a key

424
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:51.000
to her car, did you? I wonder when you used.

425
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:52.039
That last Yeah?

426
00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:55.759
Really, you've got her car key in this suitcase that

427
00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:02.119
it seems like y'all are trying to keep from LAO enforcement.

428
00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:06.440
So it seemed to lend credence to the long standing

429
00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:09.880
theory about Steve being the one to abandon Jamie's vehicle

430
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:14.039
following her disappearance. There were a number of additional items

431
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:18.319
that were very obviously of sentimental value, like their wedding

432
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:22.720
album and some yearbooks. Strangely, though, Steve had also been

433
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:27.759
carrying around her irs, receipts and credit card bells. Why,

434
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:32.160
I mean, she was the one that always handled their finances. Yeah,

435
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:36.799
and it sounds like he may have been up to

436
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:42.039
some financial fuckery in the background thereafter.

437
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:44.480
I don't know.

438
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:49.240
Honestly, it's basically just like this is her suitcase, This

439
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:51.839
is like all her stuff. Yeah, it's like an even

440
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:56.680
creepier than usual. It's like a deranged shrine to go minikit.

441
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.400
Well, it's interesting too to have like financial paper works

442
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.119
because it's like, well, obviously, well he.

443
00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:04.799
Has her signature on it.

444
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:06.920
Right, and like it makes me think, you know, this

445
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:09.559
person isn't coming back and you're gonna need these things.

446
00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:12.720
It's like creepy, yes, exactly.

447
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.079
I think there's so many reasons why. It's like wow,

448
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:19.279
night right, and to have all these clothes and stuff

449
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:23.000
of hers and m hmmm. After waiting so many years

450
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.759
to try to get justice for Jamie and her loved ones,

451
00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:29.839
law enforcement and the prosecution were determined they would be

452
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:34.279
leaving nothing to chance. Steve had been monitored as closely

453
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:38.480
and for as long as was feasible throughout the renewed investigation.

454
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:41.400
We're talking like over a year, I believe, I think,

455
00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:46.000
like fourteen months trying to firm up their case however possible,

456
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:49.279
because honestly, it just seems like if you just watch

457
00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:53.160
and wait, he'll do something to fuck this up. And

458
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:58.240
that was kind of the the presiding theory there, I

459
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:01.599
mean good theory. Yeah, I mean it really worked out

460
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:06.640
for him. The prosecution team, Marilyn and Phil Brenneman, even

461
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:11.119
reached out to a prosecutor in Marion County, Oregon, Diane

462
00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:16.000
Middle and lead detective Alan Sharn for tips in a

463
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:17.720
no body case.

464
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:21.440
No body, no crime. I was going to say nobody

465
00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:23.680
very much a crime. I was trying to think of

466
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:26.799
a better word for very much. But did you notice

467
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:30.000
the detective's name? I was going to say, were they wait?

468
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.960
Say Allan? Yeah, I don't know if that's how you

469
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:40.039
pronounce it, scarn it like Michael Scarn, Yes, yes, AnyWho.

470
00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:42.279
You have to find the levity where you can. As

471
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:44.359
soon as I saw that name, I was like, I

472
00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:46.400
literally pictured Jim's goldface.

473
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:47.680
Are we going to do the scar?

474
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:54.359
The Oregon duo had successfully investigated and built a case

475
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.240
for the prosecution of a double murder where the victims'

476
00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:00.359
bodies had never been recovered, So I, I mean, they're

477
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:05.799
leaning into colleagues that have already kind of been down

478
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:10.400
this road. They were really tapping into the resources that

479
00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:13.920
they had available to them, and I feel like it's

480
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.839
I don't know. I mean to me, it just seems

481
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:20.759
it's important because we hear so many times about whether

482
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:26.039
it's police, prosecutors, whatever, where it's just like it's arguing

483
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:30.880
over jurisdiction and dick measuring and that's why shit doesn't

484
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.839
get done. And in this case, it's like such the opposite.

485
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:38.759
So that's good because that's got to be so fucking hard.

486
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:42.799
Yeah, with nobody, I mean that it's difficult.

487
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:47.599
Yeah, And I think at this point, because this is

488
00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:51.279
we're literally heading into you know, the year two thousand

489
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:56.279
as he's headed to trial, now that doesn't seem like

490
00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:02.119
as impossible. Like it's happened. It's not an unknown anymore.

491
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:04.720
Back then it very much was like.

492
00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:06.440
I mean, it's tough.

493
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:10.920
Yeah, technologies come a long way, and it's still hard.

494
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:12.079
It is, it is.

495
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:14.119
It's still hard not to say that it's you know,

496
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.160
not hard in a no Body case today, but I

497
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:21.559
feel like at least now there's something like a roadmap

498
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:22.000
for it.

499
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.680
Yeah, yeah, they paved the way exactly.

500
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.519
Though Steve's trial was set to commence in mid April

501
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:34.119
two thousand, jury selection wasn't complete until May third. Now,

502
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:37.240
I'm not going to totally brush over the trial completely

503
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:40.519
where they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Steve super

504
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:41.599
duper did it.

505
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:43.920
But this next bit.

506
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:47.599
Alone, I feel like could convince a lot of people that,

507
00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:50.519
you know, if you harbored any doubts about his guilt,

508
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:56.240
because I haven't necessarily drilled down into everything all of

509
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:58.640
the evidence that they brought against him.

510
00:28:58.920 --> 00:29:00.599
Also, it's probably make you.

511
00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:01.640
Really fucking angry.

512
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:03.640
Great, Yeah, okay.

513
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:07.359
Steve told so many stories to people over the years

514
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:09.799
about the circumstances surrounding.

515
00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:12.119
His father's death, as well as.

516
00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:16.720
His wife Jamie, including that she had been the final

517
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.880
victim of the Green River Killer.

518
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:27.160
What why? Threat to jail? What a fucking weirdo?

519
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:30.920
Do not go Pasco? Do not collect two hundred dollars?

520
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:36.359
Green River Killer? Did it? Like, bro, do you.

521
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:40.599
Think that's something that like people can't verify? I mean,

522
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:45.599
the prevalence of the internet was different, but like, come on, yeah,

523
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:47.160
it just gives me so much ick.

524
00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:51.039
Did they know who he was back then? By two thousand?

525
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:54.680
I believe so, Okay, I can remember. Let's see.

526
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:57.519
I mean, well, now I'm wondering.

527
00:29:57.559 --> 00:29:59.599
That's interesting because like, was he trying to blame it

528
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:01.680
on someone who wasn't caught yet.

529
00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:04.799
Because that is actually it's a good point just because

530
00:30:05.319 --> 00:30:07.880
like if he hadn't been caught yet, that does change

531
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:13.599
the dynamic. Let's see, he was arrested in like near

532
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.839
the end of two thousand and one, so actually, yeah,

533
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:18.839
that does interesting.

534
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.079
And when did he say this in two thousand or

535
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:24.000
was it well prior to two thousand.

536
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:29.559
Yeah, I mean honestly, either way, it's like at some point,

537
00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:33.920
like there's like blaming it on a famous like all

538
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:40.000
of those victims, they were like pretty highly publicized. So

539
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:43.200
to say that your wife was killed by the Green

540
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:45.799
River kill it's so gross.

541
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.039
And he's like the last victim, Like how do you

542
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.400
know that? Yeah, I mean that's weird. Yeah, maybe he

543
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:54.640
just meant like, well, he's still like, how would you

544
00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:56.519
ever be just so dumb?

545
00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:59.640
He had okay it Actually, in a way, I think

546
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:03.640
it does make it worse because he hadn't been caught. Yeah,

547
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:06.640
I mean, and maybe when he said the last victim,

548
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:09.559
maybe he just meant his lot like latest victim.

549
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:12.240
But how would you know that too? No, you can't.

550
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:13.960
You you obviously made this up.

551
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.880
Yeah, it from that little tiny detail that you gave

552
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:21.319
too many details bro too many details. Just don't like,

553
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:24.039
just don't do any of this, you know what I mean?

554
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:28.839
Just like, don't Bundy did it? Bundy was dead at

555
00:31:28.839 --> 00:31:31.400
this point, wasn't he? I mean, does that matter to him?

556
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:33.279
Blame man?

557
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:35.079
Honestly that's a good point.

558
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.799
Well he's stole alive and he did it. Yeah.

559
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:42.440
No, Bundy was executed when I was like six months old, right,

560
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:48.240
not even January of nineteen eighty nine. Yeah, the seventies. Well, no,

561
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:51.119
he didn't kill crime. I was like, what killed you

562
00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:52.279
think I was born?

563
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:54.559
Hey, I mean I know the bag I got you

564
00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:59.079
this this happy birthday, you old fuck you bauch. But

565
00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:02.160
I wrote a nice note on it. It's true, is it? What?

566
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:06.599
It say? Something about how I'm obviously twenty eight? Yeah? Yeah,

567
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:12.400
just kidding love it. One woman all refer to her

568
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:15.680
as Sally. Honestly, she's been through enough. I feel like

569
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:18.559
she doesn't probably need her name out there anymore than.

570
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:19.400
It has to be.

571
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:23.720
Okay, that's what I would imagine. I feel like at

572
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.799
certain points in the story, there are certain people that

573
00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:30.799
we don't necessarily get their full names, and then there

574
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:33.759
are some people that we do. And there are some

575
00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:38.160
people that that changes over time over time because people

576
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:41.279
are more willing to come forward and share their story

577
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:45.119
and like have it linked to themselves when they think

578
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.319
Steve is going to be going behind bars?

579
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:47.640
Right?

580
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:48.519
Does that make sense?

581
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:49.160
Yeah?

582
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:53.799
Okay, I just was like listen, Sally was already in

583
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:58.000
a rough spot and then this She lived with the

584
00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:00.640
couple for a short time, trying to escape her own

585
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:05.200
scary living situation before they returned to Washington State from California.

586
00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:06.960
Was this the same one you talked about in the

587
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:12.000
last episode, Yes, that witness the yep, exactly Okay, So

588
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:16.160
she became a pretty critical witness for the prosecution detailing

589
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:19.359
the events near the end of nineteen eighty six. You

590
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.839
may recall that one time Steve casually threatened to kill

591
00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:26.039
both her and Jamie and ultimately stabbed himself.

592
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:30.200
Right, yes, you're yeah, that's so weird.

593
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:35.119
It is, though unfortunately his wounds obviously did not prove fatal.

594
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:35.680
Damn it.

595
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:39.519
He wins on you loose them. Still, there were other

596
00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:43.680
witnesses like Christopher Moon who I will name, who had

597
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:46.680
been called to the stand by the defense. He swore

598
00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:49.599
he'd seen Jamie in a card room just days after

599
00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:53.400
her supposed disappearance. To those that knew her well, this

600
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:58.440
seemed improbable, as she'd hated card rooms and they knew

601
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.799
she would never leave her son or let her family

602
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:03.880
wonder about her fate. She didn't like going to card

603
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:06.359
rooms in the first place. So it's a card room.

604
00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:11.800
It's basically like gambling. Yes, yes, and casino.

605
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:14.000
That's what I'm trying to say, like a kind of yes.

606
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.519
And I wasn't familiar with the term. But in the

607
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:19.000
state of Washington, and there may be other states that

608
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.639
did or have done this, they can get a special

609
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:27.159
license at certain types of restaurants and other businesses where

610
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:29.800
they can have a card room. But all you can

611
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:33.239
do is play cards. They can't have slot machines or

612
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:36.599
like any of that other stuff. Okay, so like a

613
00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:37.960
casino but different.

614
00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:39.039
Got it.

615
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.800
It's like more than just like a friendly game of

616
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:46.840
poker with your friends, but not a casino scale either.

617
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:47.639
Yeah.

618
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.159
I'm just like, if you really did think you saw Jamie,

619
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:55.159
she wouldn't have been there by herself. Like that seems

620
00:34:55.159 --> 00:34:57.039
like the type of thing that Steve would have fucking

621
00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:00.880
dragged her along to, you know what I mean? There

622
00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:03.599
was like this whole long story about how, oh yeah,

623
00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:07.320
Jamie looked like this girl that I knew for you know,

624
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:11.360
a long time, and that's why I recognized her right away.

625
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:14.199
Too many fucking details, dude.

626
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.559
Honestly, it's like, okay, guy, or or or or do

627
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:20.400
you think that just all women look the same. It

628
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:21.519
is that a possibility.

629
00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.480
She had titties, man, and she reminded me of this

630
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:27.079
other girl I knew who had titties too. She also

631
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:29.599
had hair I don't even know. I didn't really see

632
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:30.599
passive titties.

633
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:35.679
She was a small woman with louge breasts and hair. God, seriously,

634
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.800
I don't know. Maybe he's not garbage. It just seemed

635
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:43.559
kind of garbage. Another local businessman said Steve had asked

636
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:46.400
him to put up a missing person's poster for Jamie

637
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:50.000
in his shop, though this was roughly six months after

638
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:54.039
her disappearance, according to his recollection of the dates, which

639
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:59.840
is like, okay, guys, listen, that's you gotta call who

640
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:02.280
you can call to try to be like a character

641
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:06.159
witness or you know, break down the prosecution's case. But

642
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:09.880
like posting the flyers six months later, it's kind of

643
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:13.639
too little, too late. In the end, a jury made

644
00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:16.519
up of eight women and four men would be the

645
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:18.440
ones to decide Steve's fate.

646
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:24.159
I like that eight women majority europe majority rules.

647
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:26.880
You know. And what was interesting about this. I haven't

648
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:30.760
thought about this in connection to a lot of the

649
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:35.440
cases that I've talked about, but in Ann Roll's books specifically,

650
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:40.119
like she talked about how they had already done jury selection,

651
00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:44.199
but then when it came time for them to actually deliberate,

652
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:45.760
they had a pool.

653
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:47.360
So they actually.

654
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:50.199
Already had like alternate jurors that were kind of built in,

655
00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:54.480
so there were people that came and were part of

656
00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:58.079
the jury for the like for the trial, they sat

657
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:01.480
through all of the trial and then didn't get their

658
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:04.079
name called to be a part of the verdict. I

659
00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:08.239
would be pissed, can you imagine. But here's the thing.

660
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:11.719
It also protects them in the case of a situation

661
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:16.039
like you know, a potential mistrial or something like that.

662
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:19.119
I don't know if they hold them until like the

663
00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:20.000
verdict comes in.

664
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:23.280
Hm. I just heard of that. I had no idea

665
00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:24.000
that was the thing.

666
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:26.559
For some cases, they will do that, and it depends

667
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:29.920
on the jurisdiction. I haven't come across a case where

668
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:32.079
they have done it that way, of.

669
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.800
Course, it's this one with all this other weird shit.

670
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:38.679
Oh dude, you have no idea, You really have no idea.

671
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:42.880
It tell me it's gonna get weirder and just so

672
00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:47.880
dumb for real. On Thursday, June eighth, the jury four

673
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:51.320
person indicated that they had reached a verdict. There were

674
00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:56.400
two counts, first degree premeditated murder and second degree felony murder.

675
00:37:56.920 --> 00:38:00.159
When the verdict was read, Steve Schuer was found guilty

676
00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:05.360
on both counts. Completely indignant, Steve yelled, how do you

677
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.679
go to prison for something you didn't do? When Jamie

678
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:11.360
comes back, you can all rotten hell.

679
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:15.199
Ten years later? Whatever the fuck m hm.

680
00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:19.039
Though he did make an impassioned plea, Steve was far

681
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.079
more composed when he went before the judge on July

682
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:26.519
twenty second for sentencing. The judge sentenced Steve to sixty

683
00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:30.239
years in prison for Jamie's murder. Fuck. Yeah, you might

684
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.760
think that once the man nearly everyone believed killed our

685
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:36.719
victim was sentenced, that would be the end of the story.

686
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.119
And in a lot of other cases you would be right.

687
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:44.719
Of course, there are some things that are predictable, like appeals, right,

688
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:48.440
I mean, especially if there's the death penalty involved. But

689
00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:52.000
it turns out, even behind bars, Steve wasn't quite ready

690
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:54.760
to give up his reign of terror. In two thousand

691
00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:57.440
and two, law enforcement was made aware by a young

692
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:00.679
man who had only recently been released that he knew

693
00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:04.679
of a currently incarcerated prisoner plotting against his victims family.

694
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:07.079
Oh shit, dude.

695
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:11.400
Steve had enlisted a former cellmate to burn the Higel

696
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:15.480
family home down. Oh my god, and send him proof

697
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.400
of the job. His cellmate was due to be released

698
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:21.440
in a short time, but thankfully the authorities had been

699
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:28.800
made aware with time to act. Not to be outdone,

700
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:34.440
the King County Sheriff's Office and the Bellevue Fire Department said,

701
00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:37.880
hold my beer, I got a stage of house fire.

702
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:43.679
Oh shit, what this is crazy. I'm losing my mind

703
00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:46.760
over here, guys. My mouth is wide open. I can't

704
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:48.880
stop touching my headphone. But here's the thing.

705
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:53.039
They They were like, we have to stage it, and

706
00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:55.880
it's got to be like it's not okay if mine's

707
00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:59.559
not movie quality. It had to be convincing. But they

708
00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:02.199
weren't about to burn down the Higel family home. Thankfully,

709
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:04.519
Why didn't need to be convinced.

710
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:06.960
Hagel family home.

711
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.760
I keep saying Heigel, and there's no eye.

712
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:16.320
It's Hagel. Sorry, Hegels.

713
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:19.679
I know, I'm so sorry. Once a satisfactory amount of

714
00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:25.320
smoke was generated, they just blanketed the structure in terms, who.

715
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:29.000
Did they need to convince? Okay, it's coming.

716
00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:34.000
Honestly, just staging the fire would have been enough, but

717
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.719
they decided to go a step further to ensure that

718
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:40.280
their plan went off without a hitch, because who are

719
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:43.639
they staging it for? Right? How is he gonna if

720
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.199
somebody sees smoke, Like, what are they gonna do? Be like, oh,

721
00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:50.679
the fire didn't completely Like how would he know? He's

722
00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:53.679
in jail, but he would know they're gonna know how

723
00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:57.360
would he know? They notified the East Side Journal in

724
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:01.000
advance so the newspaper wouldn't blow their because they were

725
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:04.119
worried that like a newspaper would catch wind and like

726
00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:08.440
even if they, like if they just reported the actual

727
00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:11.639
true details like oh the house didn't burn completely down

728
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:14.840
or whatever. Okay, they were like, no, we got to

729
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:19.280
sell this shit. The editorial staff discussed whether they should

730
00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:23.480
play along, and, in true well trained journalistic fashion, asked

731
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:27.159
plenty of questions of the investigators in the end. Also,

732
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.480
thankfully they decided to do it, because you kind of

733
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.440
have to be asked wholes not to. Their story said

734
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:37.039
the house might have been targeted, but investigators would not

735
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:40.199
give further details. So they literally not only did they

736
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:43.840
not blow the cover with a story, they agreed to

737
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.719
write a story how the authorities wanted it.

738
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.119
Okay, couldn't they just have written the story without the

739
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:51.559
whole show actual fire.

740
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:54.480
I guess they didn't want word getting back to him

741
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:56.480
from somebody on the outside.

742
00:41:56.199 --> 00:41:59.760
Just like I know, I know is gonna know that,

743
00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:01.400
You're he needs to know that.

744
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:07.119
I mean, here's the thing. Look, friends, family of his Okay,

745
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:09.599
I know Chris had a lot of the same follow

746
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:11.119
up questions and frustrations.

747
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:13.239
I think they were just bored and they just really

748
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:15.239
wanted to do this fun.

749
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:19.880
I think he pissed off enough of the right the

750
00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:23.920
wrong people. King County Police made sure the story was

751
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:27.639
mailed to Sharer, who they said was very happy with

752
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:31.519
the details in it. His satisfaction would be short lived, however,

753
00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:34.239
and this is where it gets dark again. I hope

754
00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:38.039
you enjoyed what little levity there was in that Steve

755
00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:40.760
had told his would be accomplice that he could take

756
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:44.519
seventeen thousand dollars worth of very jewelry from his mother's

757
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:49.440
homeless payment. The most chilling part remember, Stephen Jamie's son

758
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:51.960
was being raised by her parents in that home.

759
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:53.880
Oh Jesus Christ.

760
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:57.440
According to court documents, Steve said he wanted the homes

761
00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:01.320
occupants killed, but he didn't mention either of the Hagels

762
00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:04.360
or his son specifically. I feel like you kind of

763
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:07.280
have to assume or at least strongly consider the prospect

764
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:11.719
that he was at least reluctantly resigned to the idea

765
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:13.079
that his own child might be.

766
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:17.000
Killed in the house fire. Yeah, he just didn't want.

767
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:19.199
To say it because he's a fucking pussy, right and

768
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:24.519
for what for what? Seriously, like you're you're in jail, dude.

769
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:29.559
There were some other things that went on behind the scenes,

770
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:34.280
nothing that rose to the level of like whoa as this,

771
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:37.280
But there were a lot of other threats and there

772
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:40.079
were other plots that he was trying to enact as well,

773
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:46.519
like against the prosecutors Jesus who he had already threatened

774
00:43:46.519 --> 00:43:50.199
and he had gotten in trouble for that God to

775
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:54.599
have the confidence of just a really mediocre white man.

776
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:58.480
Thank goodness, like someone else knew and like told on

777
00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:06.559
him stitches like, but I'm out now, booch, Wow, are

778
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:08.920
you done? That's it? Still in jail?

779
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:12.119
Yeah, he super is. I think he's still plotting and planning.

780
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:17.320
But that bitch, it's solitary. I know, honestly, no contact

781
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:18.199
was made for him.

782
00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:20.679
It's not God. If you're going to be trying to

783
00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:24.280
hurt people from the outside, like with your roommates, can

784
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:27.360
sell me up, Like what did they do to you?

785
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.039
You're going to kill her.

786
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:33.199
Entire family, including your own goddamn child, and you're Innocentce

787
00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:34.559
what exactly?

788
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:35.880
Because he's innocent.

789
00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:40.440
So yeah, I'm just gonna I didn't I didn't kill

790
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:42.079
my wife, but now I am going.

791
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:43.280
To kill everybody else.

792
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:44.960
Yeah, makes total sense.

793
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:50.239
Well, ship, dude, I never found her. Yeah, to my knowledge,

794
00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:54.920
it's still possible. Like I don't want to say there's

795
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:55.760
like hope for that.

796
00:44:55.880 --> 00:45:01.360
But even dating back to when the book was written

797
00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:06.000
quite a few years ago, because it was prior to

798
00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:09.360
the whole plot with the burning down the house, so

799
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:13.360
prior to two thousand and two, damn. One of the

800
00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:17.960
things that was discussed kind of at length, and these

801
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.920
were the parts that I kind of had to skip

802
00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:24.119
over because they give me the hebes and the jeebs

803
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:28.880
as they talked about conditions of the types of soil

804
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:35.360
and vegetation and animal life and different things that would

805
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:40.280
depending on where and how her body was disposed. The

806
00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:45.760
likeliness of her remains ever being found or identified, it's

807
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:49.480
very slim. It's not impossible, and I do I hope

808
00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:53.280
that for them, I feel like Jesus Christ, especially after

809
00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:56.480
still trying to kill them from prison.

810
00:45:56.599 --> 00:45:58.360
I mean, Jesus Christ, dude, I.

811
00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:03.159
Don't know, I honestly what though, for what thet you

812
00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:06.800
way enough? The only thing that's gonna happen is you're

813
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:10.440
gonna make this worse and finally convince the State of

814
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:12.400
Washington to give you the fucking needle.

815
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:16.599
They won't now, But I can't imagine too having to

816
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:20.599
live the rest of his life in prison, but like them,

817
00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:23.480
knowing that it's a possibility that he could still be

818
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:24.440
plotting things.

819
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:28.880
And it's just so dumb because now, if somebody were

820
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:32.960
doing this from behind bars and they were already essentially

821
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:35.559
serving life, he'd be close to one hundred years old

822
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:38.800
by the time he could be eligible for release at

823
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:44.719
this point. But at that point, Washington State was still

824
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:49.320
I wouldn't say actively, but they they were still allowed

825
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:53.000
to execute people like that was still something they were doing.

826
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:56.199
It's just so dumb. I could see why, like without

827
00:46:56.239 --> 00:46:59.119
a body and all of like, I don't know, Well,

828
00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:03.119
I'm just saying, if you keep stacking on more crimes

829
00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:06.800
on top of that, like do if you kill the

830
00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:11.280
victim's parents and the child that the two of you shared,

831
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:14.519
I could see the state deciding, you know what, we're

832
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:17.760
done here, We're done here. Clearly putting him behind bars

833
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:20.719
has not has not kept the public safe, and at

834
00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:23.599
that point, god damn. I mean, I've got a lot

835
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:27.599
of complicated feelings about the death penalty, but Jesus, pretty

836
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:30.599
clear cut at that point. What a fucker, I know,

837
00:47:31.239 --> 00:47:35.239
just trash And I really hate that he spells it wrong,

838
00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:40.599
but his last name, jeez, I know, I don't want

839
00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:42.320
to mention it because I didn't know if he wanted

840
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:45.960
to say anything or not. Yeah, it's not spelled right,

841
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:49.800
But idiot. You know how I said I don't like

842
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:52.559
to make fun of people for their lack of intellect, Well,

843
00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:55.519
I think it really is genetic because they've been spelling

844
00:47:55.559 --> 00:47:59.519
their name wrong for a long time. Whatever, just fucking

845
00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:03.840
awful though, just and I don't know, I feel like

846
00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:07.400
I have there's certain people in this case. Obviously it's

847
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:10.679
hard not to get emotionally involved to a certain degree

848
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:14.000
as you're reading these stories, but probably some people that

849
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:18.800
I've assumed, you know, intent for them that may or

850
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:22.920
may not have existed. So hopefully I didn't say anything that,

851
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:25.199
so you know what I mean, Like, I don't want

852
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:27.719
you know if I feel like Steve's mom is one

853
00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:31.559
where I'm like, I question your motives, but I feel.

854
00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:33.079
Like you're pretty good at explaining why.

855
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:36.599
Yeah, yeah, And again you know, it's just my thoughts,

856
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:38.039
my feelings, my opinion.

857
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:40.840
But I try to be like neutral too and not

858
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:43.000
just be like she hat I hate him do.

859
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:48.119
I try to be like, okay, the reason Listenly's saying.

860
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:51.719
And like absorb it. So make your own opinion about it. Yeah,

861
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:55.719
you have to. I try. I try, you guys, Okay,

862
00:48:55.840 --> 00:48:57.159
well should we do some terror?

863
00:48:57.400 --> 00:49:01.280
Let's do some terror terror because we did we missed

864
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:05.400
it the last for part one. I know, okay, well,

865
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:07.239
and I think I have a tiny dog that is

866
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:09.519
wants or needs something.

867
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:11.639
I think you also have a co host who needs

868
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:13.559
to peace. I know we can take a little breakkeep break.

869
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:17.800
We're gonna get a little break, okay.

870
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:22.639
Okay, So we decided we are still doing the tarot video,

871
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:25.320
just of the altar and us like drawing the card

872
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:28.320
for Patreon. So I mean, I'm sure it'll be posted

873
00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:31.639
maybe on like socials and whatever. But okay, so I'm

874
00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:33.840
gonna do one more good shuffle and then I'm gonna

875
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:34.480
do a thing.

876
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:39.400
Okay, so we're gonna focus all our energy on Jamie.

877
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:41.760
So then since there's not really room to spread out

878
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:43.880
the cards and draw one, I'm gonna go over to

879
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:48.079
the altar and I'm gonna shuffle flu move the cards around,

880
00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:50.599
okay until you tell me to stop, and then we're

881
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:53.480
just gonna pick what's on top. Oh so we're not

882
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:58.599
gonna feel it, but you're gonna feel my shuffling. Okay, okay, okay,

883
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:00.039
but I'm gonna do it on cameras so they I

884
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:03.440
have something to look at. I think this one, this one, yeah, I.

885
00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:07.280
Think so, I think so I hope. So we got

886
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:09.920
the page of Pentacles in reverse, and I was saying

887
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:12.599
I was excited because it's something different, but we haven't

888
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:15.960
gotten yet. Yeah, I mean we might have gotten it,

889
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:16.880
but not recently.

890
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:18.239
All right.

891
00:50:18.760 --> 00:50:23.079
The King of Pentacles are keywords wet, page of Pentacles. Sorry,

892
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:26.960
oh my gosh, how did I wow? I just I

893
00:50:27.079 --> 00:50:27.960
just make it as I go.

894
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:31.239
Page. That's okay, I'm glad I caught you.

895
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:41.480
Yeah, Page of Pentacles. Our keywords are study, developing, resources, naivete, curiosity, potential,

896
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:46.400
and service. Pages often represent the early stages of a

897
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:50.400
matter or a time of study and gaming skills. Some

898
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.079
tarot packs picture the page of Pentacles.

899
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:53.880
Holy shit.

900
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:59.519
Some tarot packs picture the page of Pentacle Jesus Christ.

901
00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:03.559
Tarot packs picture the page of Pentacles as a young

902
00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:07.280
person gazing at a pentacle as if trying.

903
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:08.079
To understand it.

904
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:14.199
If this card represents an actual person, it's probably someone young, intelligent,

905
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:16.440
hard working, and ambitious.

906
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:20.760
It feels like him like looking at her, yeah, trying

907
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:22.079
to like I don't know if he was trying to

908
00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:24.639
like understand her, but he was definitely trying to like

909
00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:26.360
change her. Yeah.

910
00:51:26.840 --> 00:51:31.000
Yeah, that's interesting, just the way that it's like gazing

911
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:34.599
upon something like as if an object.

912
00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:38.639
Yes, yes, because she was an object. I had a

913
00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:42.360
thought to shit, oh shoot, oh okay, so page it

914
00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:45.159
made me think of like how you went to the king,

915
00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:47.239
and I was like, no, because he's like a page.

916
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:51.880
He's like an immature like younger. Yeah, that's interesting.

917
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:55.559
Little girl who tears off appet dollhoods. How many times

918
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:57.880
am I going to say decapitates dallheads in this? I know,

919
00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:00.320
I mean more than you probably thought.

920
00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:02.039
Ever.

921
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:07.280
Yeah, seriously, when the page of pentacles appears reversed, it

922
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:11.239
can mean you're not taking your training, work or responsibilities

923
00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:12.400
seriously enough.

924
00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:13.960
Responsibilities like your.

925
00:52:13.880 --> 00:52:17.360
Family seriously, like any aspect of life really.

926
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:19.159
Work, wife, kids.

927
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:24.280
Yeah, perhaps you're bored, lazy, or just not up to

928
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:27.280
the task, not up to it like in terms of height.

929
00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:29.679
Maybe literally everything.

930
00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:35.079
Oh I love that we both.

931
00:52:37.719 --> 00:52:41.360
Burn bring it back to that seventies show. We talked

932
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:44.159
about Leo in the last one, and we do the

933
00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:45.840
Kelso Burn Burn.

934
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:51.960
Lack of focus or follow through could cause disappointments. In

935
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:55.559
some cases, the reversed page indicates you're out of touch

936
00:52:55.599 --> 00:53:00.400
with practical issues. Health Wise, it can suggest low vitality

937
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:01.440
or depression.

938
00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:06.159
There's definitely some I'm sure mental health issues happening definitely.

939
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:09.480
I feel like the depression and low vitality that tracks

940
00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:12.079
for me in more than one way. But that makes

941
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:14.840
me think of her too, because yes he could, That's

942
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:18.320
what I was thinking of her vitality else because he

943
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:22.000
was quite literally making her, not making her do cocaine.

944
00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:23.400
But like, you know, well that.

945
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:26.239
There were a lot of things that it's like, sure,

946
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:29.079
we can all make the argument that she's an adult

947
00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:31.880
and she can make her own choices and blah blah

948
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:34.840
blah blah blah, but we also know that there are

949
00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:37.760
certain things where there may not be a need for

950
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:41.199
a direct ask, like hey, do this or do that.

951
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:46.400
It may be that over time this person just starts

952
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:50.079
to influence your behavior in such a way that it's

953
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:53.880
like they never asked me or told me to do

954
00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:57.360
this thing, but they've kind of worn you down in

955
00:53:57.400 --> 00:53:59.639
one way or another. And I feel like that's really

956
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:03.119
such a big part of this case. Yeah, because it

957
00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:07.559
happened in more ways than one. There is an extra excerpt.

958
00:54:08.199 --> 00:54:12.079
What one does is what counts, and not what one

959
00:54:12.199 --> 00:54:15.920
had the intention of doing. Ooh see we have read

960
00:54:15.960 --> 00:54:20.599
this recently. I didn't recognize the card not that long ago.

961
00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:22.119
But yeah, he different days.

962
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:25.760
I definitely recognized that saying though, because I brought it

963
00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:28.039
up even in another episode.

964
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:33.440
It's Pablo Picasso in a reading about money. This card

965
00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:38.199
may mean you're undercapitalized or ill equipped to handle a financial.

966
00:54:37.639 --> 00:54:39.440
Matter like buying your own home.

967
00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:42.079
Yeah, or literally anything because you don't have a.

968
00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:43.840
Job, your mommy and your wife you do it.

969
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:49.199
Perhaps you're too idealistic and haven't fully examined the practical.

970
00:54:48.679 --> 00:54:51.880
Aspects of a venture. Oh my god.

971
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:56.960
Or you may emphasize wealth to the exclusion of other things.

972
00:54:57.239 --> 00:54:59.519
Wow, serious, because it was.

973
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:02.840
Always about Oh like I come from a wealthy family. Yeah,

974
00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:05.000
it's like, well, none of that really has anything to

975
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:08.800
do with you, no matter, because you're a piece of shit. Yeah,

976
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:12.199
that makes me read the read the part above that again,

977
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:16.800
perhaps you're too idealistic and haven't fully examined the practical

978
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:21.519
aspects of a venture. That reminds me of like if

979
00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:23.559
he I mean he was convicted, so like he did

980
00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:26.280
it right. We can say that like the car thing,

981
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:29.719
like not putting the seat back, like not being prepared

982
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:31.920
having the suitcases.

983
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:33.519
All of the Yeah, it's the key in it.

984
00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:38.559
Yeah, it's just very haphazard, it's very half ass. If

985
00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:41.480
the reading is about your job, the reversed page may

986
00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:43.960
show you're reluctant to take a job you feel this

987
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:44.679
beneath you.

988
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:46.599
Or any job.

989
00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:51.320
Yeah, or you might be unprepared for the tasks facing you.

990
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:55.559
Sometimes this car means turning away from the material world

991
00:55:55.679 --> 00:55:59.079
to pursue a spiritual path. Well, I mean, you know

992
00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:03.079
you should have done that. Maybe he was because there's

993
00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:06.079
ghosts in his blood and he was doing cocaine about it.

994
00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:08.559
I don't know. It's a stretch, Okay.

995
00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:12.039
In a reading about love, you may seek a partner

996
00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:15.599
who provides financial security or takes care of you.

997
00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:18.000
That's just so creepy.

998
00:56:18.920 --> 00:56:24.760
The purse or the nurse syndrome that is weird just

999
00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:26.599
because the purse was such.

1000
00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:31.239
Yeah, oh godn't think about like the symbolism of him

1001
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:36.599
like taking her purse too, Like she was basically providing

1002
00:56:36.679 --> 00:56:39.559
for them, and he in the end when she left

1003
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:44.119
him took her purse. Like that's very symbolic too. Yeah, huh.

1004
00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:47.400
The fact that it has the word wow, I love

1005
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:50.280
when that happens to us, Okay, last sentence.

1006
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:53.679
Or it may mean you're not holding up your end

1007
00:56:53.760 --> 00:57:00.360
of a relationship's responsibilities. Feels like the understatement of several.

1008
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:04.880
Decades son, husband, dad, not holding up your end of

1009
00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:08.440
any of those relationships. Caitlin's put she's knocking it down.

1010
00:57:08.599 --> 00:57:10.039
I'm upset it.

1011
00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:12.920
Oh boy, what.

1012
00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:17.000
Dude, Okay, I'm just gonna read the reverse interpretation. I

1013
00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:19.599
won't do all of the bullet points. But I was

1014
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:22.159
drawn to the King of Pentacles, right.

1015
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:23.199
Could you accidentally?

1016
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:26.880
Yeah, to read it, it's in reverse. When reversed, the

1017
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:32.800
King of Pentacles indicates sluggishness, delays, and or obstacles to

1018
00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:39.480
material success. Sometimes it shows low energy or insecurity. For sure,

1019
00:57:41.400 --> 00:57:44.079
you feel stuck but don't have the drive to get

1020
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:47.639
out of your rut. If the card represents an actual person,

1021
00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:53.519
he may be mercenary, course, dull witted, or even corrupt.

1022
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:58.480
Dull witted, fucking doom. That's funny because you kept saying

1023
00:57:58.480 --> 00:57:59.039
that too.

1024
00:57:59.079 --> 00:58:02.599
It's like, I feel kind of bad sometimes, like picking

1025
00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:10.159
on someone for their intellect or lack thereof. But come on, ah, well,

1026
00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:12.599
I feel a little bit vindicated by that. I feel

1027
00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:14.760
like I made the right choice in reading that. To

1028
00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:17.480
be honest, I'm proud of you. Thank you for going

1029
00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:20.639
with your gut. Oh my gosh, that's so crazy. It's

1030
00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:23.119
like it's so many like key words.

1031
00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:26.199
We were literally just talking about how when we pulled

1032
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:29.400
Taro and I was talking about the train episode.

1033
00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:31.320
Right in the train crash and like we had snow

1034
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:34.239
on the card and like this just happens, like we

1035
00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:35.599
were just talking about that.

1036
00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:38.920
Yeah, I like it. We did it again. I love it.

1037
00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:40.639
Well, should we get you out of here singing? What

1038
00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:45.320
to your massage? Getting a massage? After listening to all

1039
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:48.960
this sad, stressful stuff, you can put this two parter

1040
00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:53.920
behind you and go relax. I know, I know I

1041
00:58:53.960 --> 00:58:57.039
will probably just be thinking all about what I want

1042
00:58:57.079 --> 00:58:58.320
to talk about next.

1043
00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:02.400
Please don't do that. Please relax. Everyone send her vibes

1044
00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:05.199
of relaxation from the future, okay.

1045
00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:07.840
And maybe case recommendations, I don't know, whatever.

1046
00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:12.039
Send no story. Email homicide at gmail dot com or

1047
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:14.840
the Facebook group. I know we've had people sending you there.

1048
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:19.519
There's a Treon. You can chat with us on Patreon.

1049
00:59:19.559 --> 00:59:21.960
There's a group chat, or you can message us directly.

1050
00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:26.880
Yeah, I've got a few that I've actually started looking at.

1051
00:59:27.639 --> 00:59:31.920
And you know how this is, It's just like kind

1052
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:35.480
of one just sort of grabs you and you go, Okay,

1053
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:37.719
this is what I'm gonna do for now. Yeah, I'm

1054
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:39.559
probably going to come back to all of these other

1055
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:41.719
ones that I've been looking at, but it's like the

1056
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:46.400
one that like just speaks to you. However, in the moment, Yes,

1057
00:59:46.480 --> 00:59:49.920
I can relate for sure. I had that moment. And

1058
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:53.599
then I got really freaked out that the name was

1059
00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:57.599
so familiar and I know the case, and I was

1060
00:59:57.679 --> 00:59:58.920
going through our.

1061
00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:00.800
Catalog of episodes. You already do it?

1062
01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:06.719
No, I mean I cannot find where like it. We didn't,

1063
01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:09.159
But I feel like there's part of me that like

1064
01:00:09.239 --> 01:00:12.760
has this like muscle memory or like imprints of the case.

1065
01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:15.119
You're just remembering doing it in the future.

1066
01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:17.760
I guess I'm having like maybe it's kind of a

1067
01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:19.760
deja vous thing in a way.

1068
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:22.000
Maybe you heard another podcast.

1069
01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:24.800
About it a while ago, or I almost certainly have.

1070
01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:27.559
But yeah, it was really freaking me out because I

1071
01:00:27.639 --> 01:00:29.360
was like, I really want to I really I think

1072
01:00:29.400 --> 01:00:32.519
I want to do this one next. And I was

1073
01:00:32.960 --> 01:00:35.880
starting to listen to like I don't know, like some

1074
01:00:36.199 --> 01:00:39.119
like newscast or something that I found like on YouTube

1075
01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:43.360
or something about it, and I was like, sounds too familiar,

1076
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:47.039
like or you've even come across like that same thing

1077
01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:48.440
looking for other things.

1078
01:00:48.519 --> 01:00:49.480
I don't know what it was.

1079
01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:53.800
I was like, I have not covered this case. Maybe

1080
01:00:53.800 --> 01:00:56.199
it's like very similar to something else.

1081
01:00:57.400 --> 01:00:58.800
I wonder if when you read it to me, like

1082
01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:01.360
I'll be able to pin wait something, or if it

1083
01:01:01.559 --> 01:01:04.760
feels familiar to me for me, I.

1084
01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:07.079
Think maybe we'll talk off air about it, because I

1085
01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:11.119
was like, well, Cassie's not going to remember like every case,

1086
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:13.440
Like if I think I can't remember, why would I

1087
01:01:13.480 --> 01:01:14.400
think you could remember?

1088
01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:16.559
But but you could also search for it, and we're

1089
01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:19.159
so good about putting the names in the show notes

1090
01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:20.679
that it would it would pop.

1091
01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:23.719
Up, I know, and I can't find anything. Like I

1092
01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:28.159
searched with even like kind of more obscure terms like

1093
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:31.760
not even like specific names, and it wasn't coming up.

1094
01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:35.000
And I'm like, okay, I really haven't covered this case.

1095
01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:38.320
But something in me was like I really feel like

1096
01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:41.400
I've covered this and it was so bizarre, it was

1097
01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:44.559
so weird. So yeah, maybe it's it's deja vous. I

1098
01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:46.559
don't know, do you get deja fu?

1099
01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:51.639
I'm not going to keep saying an all right, all right,

1100
01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:54.599
should we do that thing? Yeah? All right, I have

1101
01:01:54.760 --> 01:01:59.400
a crap day. See next Tuesday.

1102
01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:02.599
Or the Tuesday after whichever my birthday then, so whatever,

1103
01:02:04.719 --> 01:02:09.039
not a special Yeah, it won't be quite the same energy.

1104
01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:11.559
It could be somebody out there's birthday though. I mean

1105
01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:13.519
it's someone in the world, but it could be a

1106
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:16.719
creepy person's birthday listening. So happy birthday. If you're listening

1107
01:02:16.760 --> 01:02:19.840
into your birthday, it will be friend of the pod

1108
01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:21.039
Stephanie's birthday.

1109
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:24.840
Oh okay, happy birthday, Stephanie. We're exactly a week apart.

1110
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:31.280
He's so cute. The same age, yes, twenty eight, yep,

1111
01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:39.719
you got it. Hello, Hello, Okay, then just kidding. It's

1112
01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:43.400
the elderflower. It is. It does something to you.

1113
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:50.320
Oh and Chris had orange marmalade on his toast this morning. Whoa,

1114
01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:54.880
I know that's like an English like tea time thing,

1115
01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:57.800
right or am I crazy? Thanks?

1116
01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:00.559
Or it's like Southern. I don't know one of the two.

1117
01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:01.960
It's something. It felt fancy.

1118
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:06.599
I was like, it's either fancy English or fancy Southern.