Vanished: The Jami Sue Hagel Sherer Case (Part 2)

0:02 Anyways, I just thought it was funny because it's like, here are these dogs and they're saying, like, if they could talk. I know. This is the part of the book where I really felt like, okay, all right, I'm with Anne Rule here on this, because she was talking about if the dogs could talk, they basically would be like the husband did. It obviously, you know, dog guys. I mean, they might as well pointed at Steve and said, how told are you against? Hi? Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi, creepy people. Hello, Hello, We're still.

0:44 Waving even though you can't see us. That's okay. I'm still periodically making eye contact with the camera. You don't realize how hard of a habit that is to wreak. And until you're trying. My camera's not even up and I keep looking over that there's not even a camera. She's just, oh, you're like Charlie today, just staring off into the middle distance at nothing. That's me. I am an old dog. This is PNW Hants and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal and sometimes old dogs and crumpets and orange marmalade and elderflower.

1:25 Right is it? Elderflower ulderflower. For a second, I was like, shit, is it elderberry? Either way, we are in the Pacific Northwest, which is the PNWF nasty flower because it has petals. Oh yeah, elderflower, olderflower. Enchant your palette with delicate elderflower noes beautifully balanced, vibrant flavors of ripe pineapple and juicy pomegranate. But just flavors of not actual pineapple, so you're not gonna die. The crisp a vessels adds a refreshing lift, making each sip a bright and lively celebration of fruit and bloom.

2:09 I'm Caitlin's birthday. This is NPR Happy Birthday, Caitlyn. It is in fact her actual birthday to day as we record it is and we're finally together. If you didn't hear us, you know, I woke up and I was like, what time is it? What day is it? And where should I be right now? Because I was a little bit afraid that I was supposed to be at work. It's weird. It's weird to have a day off in the middle of the week when you're not used to it. Yeah, it was nice though. Chris made me eggs eggs eggs because here's the thing, as I can scramble an egg like nobody's business, but eggs sunny side up, that's all him. Take some skills, but they taste better when somebody makes them for you.

2:59 And it's your birthday. Yeah, yeah. Does your tea taste better when someone brings it to you? Yeah? I know. We were talking about how you can only use your Starbucks drink like for your birthday on your birthday? Oh, you only on your actual birthday? Yeah, because last year I missed it. Really yeah, oh you're well, you're gonna have to get another one today. I know. That's what Chris was saying. He's like, well, obviously we have to go and hit up Starbucks on the way to something like. That's funny. I guess I didn't realize that you had to use it on your birthday because I could. You go all the time. Yeah, I was just like, it's my birthday one. It's like, yeah, okay, here we go. But yeah, I know, okay. I was gonna say one other thing.

3:40 We are camera lists today because we just we got shit to and we didn't feel like getting ready and we needed to be fast. Well, and you have to take your camera with you today, So it's it's a whole. It's also a production to take all of this equipment apart. I'm shooting a wedding soon. But I wore a themed ash shirt today. I wore my Twilight shirt with Bella and Edward on it. Do you know why not? No long theme for I'm very curious. It's part two of this, the toxicity. Oh okay, I kind of I figured that must be where you were going with this, but I was like, I'm gonna let. Her finish the toxic relationship.

4:21 Yeah, no, that's fair. Yes, yeah. I could see Edward calling Bella every fifteen minutes to see where she's at. God, can you imagine? Jeez, God, not for me, it's just too much. I can't, simply can't. I just watch had Twilight marathon. Very lazy, lazy, like said my birthday celebration. I was like, I don't feel like doing shit. We're just gonna literally watch all five movies in one night. Oh my god, that's so much. That was great. Yeah, I love torturing my friends. I should have made you come over. It's your birthday, so that's what you do. But I was sick on my birthday. I know you.

5:02 I didn't want to infect you. You were already surrounded by the Petri dish that got to you. So yes, yeah, so we just laid in a Petri dish and watched. Well, should we talk about the actual serious, toxic relationship that we are, right? I need to hear the. Rest of the story. Yes you do, yep. So before we get into part two, I'm just going to give everyone a super short recap of part one. It's not an excuse to not listen to part one because this is not going to cover everything. So if you. Haven't done, if you didn't listen to that one first, you go go to listen to that.

5:43 Yeah, it won't even be close. I can tell you right now. Yep. By the end of September nineteen ninety, twenty six year old Jamie Sue Heigelsher, a Microsoft employee and loving mother from Redmond, Washington, has gone missing. Those closest to her said she had resolved to leave her abusive and controlling husband, Steve Scher, after years of escalating threats, manipulation, and violence. After telling her mother she was ending the marriage and meeting Steve to collect her belongings and her purse. Jamie vanished. Her Mazda RX seven was later found abandoned near a church with her Duffel bag inside. Despite extensive searches, Steve showed little interest in locating his missing wife, attempting suicide days later before quickly retaining a prominent criminal defense attorney.

6:36 No notes, Just that's how you'd do that, yeah. Her parents, Jerry and Judy Heigel, were granted custody of her young son, Chris. With no sign of Jamie for nearly seven years, she was sadly legally declared dead. Judy's forceful, earnest desire for answers prompted investigators to revisit the case and examine long standing suspicions surrounding Steve. Say that seven times fast, suspicious? Steve? Yeah, long standing suspicions surrounding Steve Yeah, who wrote that? You said it good? The first time? I know I did.

7:18 Both Jamie's loved ones and law enforcement believed that there were a number of details, both new and old, that seemed suspicious and were perhaps worth a second look. Like in early October, just days after Jamie disappeared, Judy recalled Steve suddenly becoming preoccupied with the I'm gonna call it cosmetic maintenance of his vehicle. She couldn't help but wonder why a man with a missing wife would be so concerned about getting his car detailed. I mean, I could think of a couple of reasons why. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Ugh. She overheard him making a call about it, and Steve provided a lame excuse that didn't pass the sniff test with Judy. He basically was like, oh, my car smells real bad. And she was like, I was literally just in your car, and I don't believe you, and you're a piece of shit.

8:12 And he was like, man, I'm a man's do it our wall. Yeah, you're not wrong. While we're on the topics of sniffing and cars, let's revisit the scent dogs that law enforcement had engaged in the search for Jamie. You see, when they took some of Jamie's clothes in a laundry hamper, there was at least one pair of pants belonging to Steve in the mix. The scent dogs were showing disinterest in Jamie's scent when it came to her car, but it's believed that when they tracked a scent to a bus stop on I five before suddenly stopping. This was a telltale sign that what they were tracking was indeed Steve's scent.

8:58 Oh okay, tilted in my head like a dog when you were saying all that, and I was like, so does that mean she wasn't in her car? If they like were losing interest. Or smart cookies, not just a hat. Breath this one. But they were also smelling him too. Right because their closer Well here, I'll just tell you, okay, the theory being that Steve had left Jamie's masta there at the church before boarding a bus or getting another ride. This also clicked into place seeing as the last driver of her car had clearly been taller than her, but not significantly so only. Six and Cha said he was five six five seven.

9:40 I don't know why you thought, you know, I just listened to the episode, you guys, damn it. Yeah. So, I mean, basically what that indicates is if they're not alerting for Jamie sent in connection with her car, but they are like tracking a sad and the assumption is that they're they're picking up his scent, and they're like, well, obviously, if they're not tracking Jamie's scent or they're not indicating that they're you know, finding her in relation. To the car. It's because she's not the person that left her car there, Yeah, which is really important just because it kind of clarifies that, no, she didn't just decide to go missing, right. I mean, this is you know, not that that was necessarily something that law enforcement was you know, pushing. It seems like they took the family seriously, you know, pretty much right out the gate.

10:41 But they made proof and this is like proof that someone else at least was involved exactly something. And they and they need that so that it's giving them more to go on, giving them another avenue to explore. And I feel like to some degree, you kind of have to be open to really almost any theory as much as like the family would be you know saying in a lot of missing persons cases, like they would never do this, you know, they didn't just abandon their life. Law enforcement has to consider that a possibility, I think until kind of proven otherwise. She never really know what's in someone else's head. As much as you think you know somebody exactly, you really don't know, right, No.

11:26 I mean, I mean even people that think they know each other very well. Obviously are surprised by the things that people do. So anyways, I just thought it was funny because it's like, here are these dogs and they're saying, like, if they could talk. I know. This is the part of the book where I really felt like, Okay, all right, I'm with Anne Rule here on this, because she was talking about if the dogs could talk, they basically would be like the husband did it obviously, you know, guys, I mean, they might as well pointed at Steve and said, how told. Are you against give Steve. It's funny too that he will whoever left the car they're didn't think to like pull the seat forward or they never do. Yeah, not a details, guy. Still, neither of these details was going to be the basis of their case against Steve. It was something, but not quite enough.

12:25 It's like, okay, yeah, the seat is positioned for somebody about his height. You know, they're picking up you know, it seems like. Probably his send. But it's it's very like it's not not evidence, maybe, but it's very it's tenuous, it's circumstantial. Yeah, so they needed more a lot more. Well. As it turns out, Steve was as generous a guy as he was, fall little because he was going to help them. I was like, he was being generous. Yeah, I mean I think it was unintentional, but yeah.

13:06 Lieutenant James Taylor had given Steve his business card at some point amidst the investigation being revitalized, and was surprised to learn that he'd kept it. Apparently, Steve was none too pleased about how the investigation was progressing, which he voiced in no uncertain terms to the lieutenant. H weird. I wonder why he wasn't a fan of it. I know, so weird. Steve had clearly been able to buy, charm or bully his way out of any number of situations in his life up to this point. His first call to Taylor went like this, Hey, Lieutenant dickhead, now that I'm out, why don't you come fuck with me now, you piece of shit? And he hung up. Oh wow, okay, yeah, very mature, right, Yeah, I mean we've established that he is a he's a real big man, angry like five year old girl decapitating dollheads.

14:03 So yeah. This was followed up by another call from Steve because you know, obviously we know he likes to make multiple calls. Is your refrigerator running? I just I honestly, I thought about the stupid like prank calls and stuff that people make, and this feels so much stupider than that, Like it's it's real, they're not jokes, but it's so dumb, Like stay stupid, dude. Oh okay, So his next call, he said, I want you to stop messing with me. If you don't have the investigators back off, I'm going to go out and cut someone's fucking throat.

14:47 Dude, Like, how how do you think that's gonna help your situation? You know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna call a cop and threaten someone's life. That can't be illegal. That won't be a problem. Lovely. As those conversations were, Steve wasn't quite done, because of course he's not Steve. Sussy Steve. He called Marilyn Brenneman, one of the prosecutors working with law enforcement on the case at the time. She wasn't in her office, so he left her a voicemail evidence evidence exhibit A, your honor A for us. This is Steve Shearer, identifying himself by first and last name.

15:34 Do you spell it out? Not social Security is data birth. I'm out now and I want to talk to you. You better call me back. I want what's mine. I want my wife's car back, I want her ring back, I want it all back. I'm not going to go away. You better not fuck with me. It's my turn to fuck with you. You'd better call me back. There was a short pause, and then he said, have a good life. Have a good life. But you want her to call you back, so you'll you'll talk. Also, is he wanting the ring back that he reported missing?

16:15 Listen, I think the jig was already up with the ring. It doesn't look like they ever actually like face any consequences for that. But but he's just like fully like admitting that. The I mean, she's definitely at a certain point, like she got a replacement ring, so okay, okay, okay, but it I mean, spoiler alert, it was the original ring. Okay, so but still, oh my god, that would be so funny if I know that's. How they get him for the for the insurance broad and we're slapping this on too, I know, wouldn't that be nice? Don't worry, they'll have another opportunity. What Steve did there is what those in the biz call a no no you were sometimes a felony. At the time, Steve had been released from jail just about a month prior.

17:08 Hopefully he hadn't gotten too comfortable back at home, because threatening a public official with bodily harm is against the law. Nice he turns out, was. He trying to go back because he's like, I'm out now, I don't know what to do. I was threatening everyone to try to get back in jail. Honestly, I have zero plans this weekend, and I really don't feel like cooking. These angry outbursts would lead to his arrest on June twenty third, nineteen ninety one. When he went. Before a judge. His bail was set at thirty thousand dollars, and for once, he apparently didn't have the means to at least buy his way out of a problem in the short term. Mommy didn't help well.

17:50 At that point, he was actually out on bail already for traffic offenses from another jurisdiction. Oh my lord. Eventually, his family came through with bail money, and Steve moved in with his mother to her Mill Creek homb How you're already out on bail, sir sor oh. My god, like and then to have your mom have to come up with all this bail money like again seriously, like more bail money? Yeah for this fucking kid, this guy, wow, this begging gay. By early nineteen ninety two, the team was ready to arrest Steve, but he did not show up for his appointment with his probation officer, which is not funny. The don't do that. That's how you get arrested. But the authorities monitored the area around Steve's mother's home in Mill Creek.

18:46 All police agencies were asked to have their personnel watch for him. In the meantime, the FBI sat on his mother's house and when one of Steve's dumbass friends stop by for a visit, they literally just stormed the door as Steve opened it. To his pal. And you know also along with some other uninvited guests. Did they have a warrant? Well, here's the thing is, like, he wouldn't have answered the door if he thought it was law enforcement. Right, of course, Steve was arrested without any major incident. It had been just over nine years since his wife Jamie had disappeared, and Steve was finally in custody. It wasn't the finish line, but certainly a huge wave of relief for those closest to the case. His bail was set at a million dollars, all but ensuring that he would remain in custody throughout the duration of the proceedings.

19:42 Snap, Mama's not dropping a mill. That's like, you have to put your house up for collateral in a situation like that. Shit probably put his house up, right, Well, where'd that house go? I don't know. I would assume that, you know, there's right of survivorship for that, so I would assume that, you know, probably that came into his possession. Realistically, they were married, bought the house together. Not that I want him to get out. No, no, But I do wonder about that because that was one thing where I didn't really see a ton where it was talked about, like what ended up happening to their family home. I do find.

20:24 Those pieces are It's interesting. I wonder if, like the mom sold it for the bail money. Maybe. After a search warrant was executed on Sherry Steve's mother's home in mid April, there were some items that had been listed within the warrant that had not been recovered, and Steve's trial was set for May. In general, I don't think it's nice to be little people that may be lacking in terms of intelligence. It's not the kind thing to do. But it is the thing that I am about to do, and I don't feel.

21:04 Bad about it. Well, some people deserve it. Yeah. Steve's mother, Sherry, did eventually locate them and told his attorney, Pete Mayer that she didn't really want to turn them over to law enforcement. They're on the warrant. Yeah, well, so he informed her that as an officer of the court, it was literally his duty to do just that, like he's defense counsel. But he's still bound by the law. Why would she even tell him? I found these but I think I want to give them to you? So I what? Once again, I say, I don't feel good about making fun of people's intellectual deficits on the whole. But wasn't the smart move here?

21:51 No, I mean I'd rather hurt. It worked out for the best. It worked out for the best. And here's the thing is I get loving your kids no matter what. But Sherry, girl, this is a homicide case, like love him from jail. Maybe that's where he belongs. Maybe like that was kind of her like reasoning, or maybe maybe it was like subconscious where it's like, I don't want to give these up because it's my son, but I know like. That I should. He was gonna give it to the lawyer because she knows that he has to. I don't know. I don't know. It's hard to say, because I feel that was the thought that I had. But given how much it seems like she had enabled him, you know, all like all throughout his life leading up to this, it kind of seemed more like, I don't really want to turn these over because it probably wouldn't be good.

22:47 And the lawyer's like, well, then you're done fucked up, Miguel AnyWho. I'm not sure that it's ever been confirmed so far as I'm aware, whether Sherry knew exactly what she had just given the authority. It was just a suitcase. Uh oh. But if I were a betting man, I'd say, maybe she took a peek. I don't know, Maybe she's not that kind of mom. How could you not take a piece? How could you not and you know it's specifically listed in the warrant. The content of Steve's blue suitcase were varied various black lingerie that had belonged to Jamie. Those items had one thing in common with a good many of the others. Most of them had belonged to Jamie.

23:33 There were her night shirts with QT frases like supermom, the couple's matching bowling shirts, even a key to her masta, which is really important because oh, you had a key to her car, did you? I wonder when you used. That last Yeah? Really, you've got her car key in this suitcase that it seems like y'all are trying to keep from LAO enforcement. So it seemed to lend credence to the long standing theory about Steve being the one to abandon Jamie's vehicle following her disappearance. There were a number of additional items that were very obviously of sentimental value, like their wedding album and some yearbooks. Strangely, though, Steve had also been carrying around her irs, receipts and credit card bells. Why, I mean, she was the one that always handled their finances. Yeah, and it sounds like he may have been up to some financial fuckery in the background thereafter.

24:44 I don't know. Honestly, it's basically just like this is her suitcase, This is like all her stuff. Yeah, it's like an even creepier than usual. It's like a deranged shrine to go minikit. Well, it's interesting too to have like financial paper works because it's like, well, obviously, well he. Has her signature on it. Right, and like it makes me think, you know, this person isn't coming back and you're gonna need these things. It's like creepy, yes, exactly. I think there's so many reasons why. It's like wow, night right, and to have all these clothes and stuff of hers and m hmmm. After waiting so many years to try to get justice for Jamie and her loved ones, law enforcement and the prosecution were determined they would be leaving nothing to chance. Steve had been monitored as closely and for as long as was feasible throughout the renewed investigation.

25:38 We're talking like over a year, I believe, I think, like fourteen months trying to firm up their case however possible, because honestly, it just seems like if you just watch and wait, he'll do something to fuck this up. And that was kind of the the presiding theory there, I mean good theory. Yeah, I mean it really worked out for him. The prosecution team, Marilyn and Phil Brenneman, even reached out to a prosecutor in Marion County, Oregon, Diane Middle and lead detective Alan Sharn for tips in a no body case. No body, no crime. I was going to say nobody very much a crime. I was trying to think of a better word for very much. But did you notice the detective's name? I was going to say, were they wait?

26:30 Say Allan? Yeah, I don't know if that's how you pronounce it, scarn it like Michael Scarn, Yes, yes, AnyWho. You have to find the levity where you can. As soon as I saw that name, I was like, I literally pictured Jim's goldface. Are we going to do the scar? The Oregon duo had successfully investigated and built a case for the prosecution of a double murder where the victims' bodies had never been recovered, So I, I mean, they're leaning into colleagues that have already kind of been down this road. They were really tapping into the resources that they had available to them, and I feel like it's I don't know. I mean to me, it just seems it's important because we hear so many times about whether it's police, prosecutors, whatever, where it's just like it's arguing over jurisdiction and dick measuring and that's why shit doesn't get done. And in this case, it's like such the opposite.

27:34 So that's good because that's got to be so fucking hard. Yeah, with nobody, I mean that it's difficult. Yeah, And I think at this point, because this is we're literally heading into you know, the year two thousand as he's headed to trial, now that doesn't seem like as impossible. Like it's happened. It's not an unknown anymore. Back then it very much was like. I mean, it's tough. Yeah, technologies come a long way, and it's still hard. It is, it is. It's still hard not to say that it's you know, not hard in a no Body case today, but I feel like at least now there's something like a roadmap for it.

28:22 Yeah, yeah, they paved the way exactly. Though Steve's trial was set to commence in mid April two thousand, jury selection wasn't complete until May third. Now, I'm not going to totally brush over the trial completely where they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Steve super duper did it. But this next bit. Alone, I feel like could convince a lot of people that, you know, if you harbored any doubts about his guilt, because I haven't necessarily drilled down into everything all of the evidence that they brought against him. Also, it's probably make you. Really fucking angry. Great, Yeah, okay.

29:04 Steve told so many stories to people over the years about the circumstances surrounding. His father's death, as well as. His wife Jamie, including that she had been the final victim of the Green River Killer. What why? Threat to jail? What a fucking weirdo? Do not go Pasco? Do not collect two hundred dollars? Green River Killer? Did it? Like, bro, do you. Think that's something that like people can't verify? I mean, the prevalence of the internet was different, but like, come on, yeah, it just gives me so much ick.

29:47 Did they know who he was back then? By two thousand? I believe so, Okay, I can remember. Let's see. I mean, well, now I'm wondering. That's interesting because like, was he trying to blame it on someone who wasn't caught yet. Because that is actually it's a good point just because like if he hadn't been caught yet, that does change the dynamic. Let's see, he was arrested in like near the end of two thousand and one, so actually, yeah, that does interesting. And when did he say this in two thousand or was it well prior to two thousand. Yeah, I mean honestly, either way, it's like at some point, like there's like blaming it on a famous like all of those victims, they were like pretty highly publicized. So to say that your wife was killed by the Green River kill it's so gross.

30:45 And he's like the last victim, Like how do you know that? Yeah, I mean that's weird. Yeah, maybe he just meant like, well, he's still like, how would you ever be just so dumb? He had okay it Actually, in a way, I think it does make it worse because he hadn't been caught. Yeah, I mean, and maybe when he said the last victim, maybe he just meant his lot like latest victim. But how would you know that too? No, you can't. You you obviously made this up. Yeah, it from that little tiny detail that you gave too many details bro too many details. Just don't like, just don't do any of this, you know what I mean? Just like, don't Bundy did it? Bundy was dead at this point, wasn't he? I mean, does that matter to him?

31:32 Blame man? Honestly that's a good point. Well he's stole alive and he did it. Yeah. No, Bundy was executed when I was like six months old, right, not even January of nineteen eighty nine. Yeah, the seventies. Well, no, he didn't kill crime. I was like, what killed you think I was born? Hey, I mean I know the bag I got you this this happy birthday, you old fuck you bauch. But I wrote a nice note on it. It's true, is it? What? It say? Something about how I'm obviously twenty eight? Yeah? Yeah, just kidding love it. One woman all refer to her as Sally. Honestly, she's been through enough. I feel like she doesn't probably need her name out there anymore than.

32:18 It has to be. Okay, that's what I would imagine. I feel like at certain points in the story, there are certain people that we don't necessarily get their full names, and then there are some people that we do. And there are some people that that changes over time over time because people are more willing to come forward and share their story and like have it linked to themselves when they think Steve is going to be going behind bars? Right? Does that make sense? Yeah? Okay, I just was like listen, Sally was already in a rough spot and then this She lived with the couple for a short time, trying to escape her own scary living situation before they returned to Washington State from California.

33:05 Was this the same one you talked about in the last episode, Yes, that witness the yep, exactly Okay, So she became a pretty critical witness for the prosecution detailing the events near the end of nineteen eighty six. You may recall that one time Steve casually threatened to kill both her and Jamie and ultimately stabbed himself. Right, yes, you're yeah, that's so weird. It is, though unfortunately his wounds obviously did not prove fatal. Damn it. He wins on you loose them. Still, there were other witnesses like Christopher Moon who I will name, who had been called to the stand by the defense. He swore he'd seen Jamie in a card room just days after her supposed disappearance. To those that knew her well, this seemed improbable, as she'd hated card rooms and they knew she would never leave her son or let her family wonder about her fate. She didn't like going to card rooms in the first place. So it's a card room.

34:06 It's basically like gambling. Yes, yes, and casino. That's what I'm trying to say, like a kind of yes. And I wasn't familiar with the term. But in the state of Washington, and there may be other states that did or have done this, they can get a special license at certain types of restaurants and other businesses where they can have a card room. But all you can do is play cards. They can't have slot machines or like any of that other stuff. Okay, so like a casino but different. Got it. It's like more than just like a friendly game of poker with your friends, but not a casino scale either.

34:47 Yeah. I'm just like, if you really did think you saw Jamie, she wouldn't have been there by herself. Like that seems like the type of thing that Steve would have fucking dragged her along to, you know what I mean? There was like this whole long story about how, oh yeah, Jamie looked like this girl that I knew for you know, a long time, and that's why I recognized her right away. Too many fucking details, dude. Honestly, it's like, okay, guy, or or or or do you think that just all women look the same. It is that a possibility. She had titties, man, and she reminded me of this other girl I knew who had titties too. She also had hair I don't even know. I didn't really see passive titties.

35:30 She was a small woman with louge breasts and hair. God, seriously, I don't know. Maybe he's not garbage. It just seemed kind of garbage. Another local businessman said Steve had asked him to put up a missing person's poster for Jamie in his shop, though this was roughly six months after her disappearance, according to his recollection of the dates, which is like, okay, guys, listen, that's you gotta call who you can call to try to be like a character witness or you know, break down the prosecution's case. But like posting the flyers six months later, it's kind of too little, too late. In the end, a jury made up of eight women and four men would be the ones to decide Steve's fate.

36:19 I like that eight women majority europe majority rules. You know. And what was interesting about this. I haven't thought about this in connection to a lot of the cases that I've talked about, but in Ann Roll's books specifically, like she talked about how they had already done jury selection, but then when it came time for them to actually deliberate, they had a pool. So they actually. Already had like alternate jurors that were kind of built in, so there were people that came and were part of the jury for the like for the trial, they sat through all of the trial and then didn't get their name called to be a part of the verdict. I would be pissed, can you imagine. But here's the thing.

37:08 It also protects them in the case of a situation like you know, a potential mistrial or something like that. I don't know if they hold them until like the verdict comes in. Hm. I just heard of that. I had no idea that was the thing. For some cases, they will do that, and it depends on the jurisdiction. I haven't come across a case where they have done it that way, of. Course, it's this one with all this other weird shit. Oh dude, you have no idea, You really have no idea. It tell me it's gonna get weirder and just so dumb for real. On Thursday, June eighth, the jury four person indicated that they had reached a verdict. There were two counts, first degree premeditated murder and second degree felony murder.

37:56 When the verdict was read, Steve Schuer was found guilty on both counts. Completely indignant, Steve yelled, how do you go to prison for something you didn't do? When Jamie comes back, you can all rotten hell. Ten years later? Whatever the fuck m hm. Though he did make an impassioned plea, Steve was far more composed when he went before the judge on July twenty second for sentencing. The judge sentenced Steve to sixty years in prison for Jamie's murder. Fuck. Yeah, you might think that once the man nearly everyone believed killed our victim was sentenced, that would be the end of the story.

38:37 And in a lot of other cases you would be right. Of course, there are some things that are predictable, like appeals, right, I mean, especially if there's the death penalty involved. But it turns out, even behind bars, Steve wasn't quite ready to give up his reign of terror. In two thousand and two, law enforcement was made aware by a young man who had only recently been released that he knew of a currently incarcerated prisoner plotting against his victims family. Oh shit, dude. Steve had enlisted a former cellmate to burn the Higel family home down. Oh my god, and send him proof of the job. His cellmate was due to be released in a short time, but thankfully the authorities had been made aware with time to act. Not to be outdone, the King County Sheriff's Office and the Bellevue Fire Department said, hold my beer, I got a stage of house fire.

39:38 Oh shit, what this is crazy. I'm losing my mind over here, guys. My mouth is wide open. I can't stop touching my headphone. But here's the thing. They They were like, we have to stage it, and it's got to be like it's not okay if mine's not movie quality. It had to be convincing. But they weren't about to burn down the Higel family home. Thankfully, Why didn't need to be convinced. Hagel family home. I keep saying Heigel, and there's no eye. It's Hagel. Sorry, Hegels. I know, I'm so sorry. Once a satisfactory amount of smoke was generated, they just blanketed the structure in terms, who.

40:25 Did they need to convince? Okay, it's coming. Honestly, just staging the fire would have been enough, but they decided to go a step further to ensure that their plan went off without a hitch, because who are they staging it for? Right? How is he gonna if somebody sees smoke, Like, what are they gonna do? Be like, oh, the fire didn't completely Like how would he know? He's in jail, but he would know they're gonna know how would he know? They notified the East Side Journal in advance so the newspaper wouldn't blow their because they were worried that like a newspaper would catch wind and like even if they, like if they just reported the actual true details like oh the house didn't burn completely down or whatever. Okay, they were like, no, we got to sell this shit. The editorial staff discussed whether they should play along, and, in true well trained journalistic fashion, asked plenty of questions of the investigators in the end. Also, thankfully they decided to do it, because you kind of have to be asked wholes not to. Their story said the house might have been targeted, but investigators would not give further details. So they literally not only did they not blow the cover with a story, they agreed to write a story how the authorities wanted it.

41:46 Okay, couldn't they just have written the story without the whole show actual fire. I guess they didn't want word getting back to him from somebody on the outside. Just like I know, I know is gonna know that, You're he needs to know that. I mean, here's the thing. Look, friends, family of his Okay, I know Chris had a lot of the same follow up questions and frustrations. I think they were just bored and they just really wanted to do this fun. I think he pissed off enough of the right the wrong people. King County Police made sure the story was mailed to Sharer, who they said was very happy with the details in it. His satisfaction would be short lived, however, and this is where it gets dark again. I hope you enjoyed what little levity there was in that Steve had told his would be accomplice that he could take seventeen thousand dollars worth of very jewelry from his mother's homeless payment. The most chilling part remember, Stephen Jamie's son was being raised by her parents in that home.

42:52 Oh Jesus Christ. According to court documents, Steve said he wanted the homes occupants killed, but he didn't mention either of the Hagels or his son specifically. I feel like you kind of have to assume or at least strongly consider the prospect that he was at least reluctantly resigned to the idea that his own child might be. Killed in the house fire. Yeah, he just didn't want. To say it because he's a fucking pussy, right and for what for what? Seriously, like you're you're in jail, dude. There were some other things that went on behind the scenes, nothing that rose to the level of like whoa as this, But there were a lot of other threats and there were other plots that he was trying to enact as well, like against the prosecutors Jesus who he had already threatened and he had gotten in trouble for that God to have the confidence of just a really mediocre white man.

43:55 Thank goodness, like someone else knew and like told on him stitches like, but I'm out now, booch, Wow, are you done? That's it? Still in jail? Yeah, he super is. I think he's still plotting and planning. But that bitch, it's solitary. I know, honestly, no contact was made for him. It's not God. If you're going to be trying to hurt people from the outside, like with your roommates, can sell me up, Like what did they do to you? You're going to kill her. Entire family, including your own goddamn child, and you're Innocentce what exactly? Because he's innocent.

44:36 So yeah, I'm just gonna I didn't I didn't kill my wife, but now I am going. To kill everybody else. Yeah, makes total sense. Well, ship, dude, I never found her. Yeah, to my knowledge, it's still possible. Like I don't want to say there's like hope for that. But even dating back to when the book was written quite a few years ago, because it was prior to the whole plot with the burning down the house, so prior to two thousand and two, damn. One of the things that was discussed kind of at length, and these were the parts that I kind of had to skip over because they give me the hebes and the jeebs as they talked about conditions of the types of soil and vegetation and animal life and different things that would depending on where and how her body was disposed. The likeliness of her remains ever being found or identified, it's very slim. It's not impossible, and I do I hope that for them, I feel like Jesus Christ, especially after still trying to kill them from prison.

45:56 I mean, Jesus Christ, dude, I. Don't know, I honestly what though, for what thet you way enough? The only thing that's gonna happen is you're gonna make this worse and finally convince the State of Washington to give you the fucking needle. They won't now, But I can't imagine too having to live the rest of his life in prison, but like them, knowing that it's a possibility that he could still be plotting things. And it's just so dumb because now, if somebody were doing this from behind bars and they were already essentially serving life, he'd be close to one hundred years old by the time he could be eligible for release at this point. But at that point, Washington State was still I wouldn't say actively, but they they were still allowed to execute people like that was still something they were doing.

46:53 It's just so dumb. I could see why, like without a body and all of like, I don't know, Well, I'm just saying, if you keep stacking on more crimes on top of that, like do if you kill the victim's parents and the child that the two of you shared, I could see the state deciding, you know what, we're done here, We're done here. Clearly putting him behind bars has not has not kept the public safe, and at that point, god damn. I mean, I've got a lot of complicated feelings about the death penalty, but Jesus, pretty clear cut at that point. What a fucker, I know, just trash And I really hate that he spells it wrong, but his last name, jeez, I know, I don't want to mention it because I didn't know if he wanted to say anything or not. Yeah, it's not spelled right, But idiot. You know how I said I don't like to make fun of people for their lack of intellect, Well, I think it really is genetic because they've been spelling their name wrong for a long time. Whatever, just fucking awful though, just and I don't know, I feel like I have there's certain people in this case. Obviously it's hard not to get emotionally involved to a certain degree as you're reading these stories, but probably some people that I've assumed, you know, intent for them that may or may not have existed. So hopefully I didn't say anything that, so you know what I mean, Like, I don't want

48:25 you know if I feel like Steve's mom is one where I'm like, I question your motives, but I feel. Like you're pretty good at explaining why. Yeah, yeah, And again you know, it's just my thoughts, my feelings, my opinion. But I try to be like neutral too and not just be like she hat I hate him do. I try to be like, okay, the reason Listenly's saying. And like absorb it. So make your own opinion about it. Yeah, you have to. I try. I try, you guys, Okay, well should we do some terror? Let's do some terror terror because we did we missed it the last for part one. I know, okay, well, and I think I have a tiny dog that is wants or needs something.

49:09 I think you also have a co host who needs to peace. I know we can take a little breakkeep break. We're gonna get a little break, okay. Okay, So we decided we are still doing the tarot video, just of the altar and us like drawing the card for Patreon. So I mean, I'm sure it'll be posted maybe on like socials and whatever. But okay, so I'm gonna do one more good shuffle and then I'm gonna do a thing. Okay, so we're gonna focus all our energy on Jamie. So then since there's not really room to spread out the cards and draw one, I'm gonna go over to the altar and I'm gonna shuffle flu move the cards around, okay until you tell me to stop, and then we're just gonna pick what's on top. Oh so we're not gonna feel it, but you're gonna feel my shuffling. Okay, okay, okay, but I'm gonna do it on cameras so they I have something to look at. I think this one, this one, yeah, I.

50:03 Think so, I think so I hope. So we got the page of Pentacles in reverse, and I was saying I was excited because it's something different, but we haven't gotten yet. Yeah, I mean we might have gotten it, but not recently. All right. The King of Pentacles are keywords wet, page of Pentacles. Sorry, oh my gosh, how did I wow? I just I just make it as I go. Page. That's okay, I'm glad I caught you. Yeah, Page of Pentacles. Our keywords are study, developing, resources, naivete, curiosity, potential, and service. Pages often represent the early stages of a matter or a time of study and gaming skills. Some tarot packs picture the page of Pentacles.

50:53 Holy shit. Some tarot packs picture the page of Pentacle Jesus Christ. Tarot packs picture the page of Pentacles as a young person gazing at a pentacle as if trying. To understand it. If this card represents an actual person, it's probably someone young, intelligent, hard working, and ambitious. It feels like him like looking at her, yeah, trying to like I don't know if he was trying to like understand her, but he was definitely trying to like change her. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting, just the way that it's like gazing upon something like as if an object.

51:34 Yes, yes, because she was an object. I had a thought to shit, oh shoot, oh okay, so page it made me think of like how you went to the king, and I was like, no, because he's like a page. He's like an immature like younger. Yeah, that's interesting. Little girl who tears off appet dollhoods. How many times am I going to say decapitates dallheads in this? I know, I mean more than you probably thought. Ever. Yeah, seriously, when the page of pentacles appears reversed, it can mean you're not taking your training, work or responsibilities seriously enough. Responsibilities like your. Family seriously, like any aspect of life really.

52:17 Work, wife, kids. Yeah, perhaps you're bored, lazy, or just not up to the task, not up to it like in terms of height. Maybe literally everything. Oh I love that we both. Burn bring it back to that seventies show. We talked about Leo in the last one, and we do the Kelso Burn Burn. Lack of focus or follow through could cause disappointments. In some cases, the reversed page indicates you're out of touch with practical issues. Health Wise, it can suggest low vitality or depression.

53:01 There's definitely some I'm sure mental health issues happening definitely. I feel like the depression and low vitality that tracks for me in more than one way. But that makes me think of her too, because yes he could, That's what I was thinking of her vitality else because he was quite literally making her, not making her do cocaine. But like, you know, well that. There were a lot of things that it's like, sure, we can all make the argument that she's an adult and she can make her own choices and blah blah blah blah blah, but we also know that there are certain things where there may not be a need for a direct ask, like hey, do this or do that. It may be that over time this person just starts to influence your behavior in such a way that it's like they never asked me or told me to do this thing, but they've kind of worn you down in one way or another. And I feel like that's really such a big part of this case. Yeah, because it happened in more ways than one. There is an extra excerpt.

54:08 What one does is what counts, and not what one had the intention of doing. Ooh see we have read this recently. I didn't recognize the card not that long ago. But yeah, he different days. I definitely recognized that saying though, because I brought it up even in another episode. It's Pablo Picasso in a reading about money. This card may mean you're undercapitalized or ill equipped to handle a financial. Matter like buying your own home. Yeah, or literally anything because you don't have a. Job, your mommy and your wife you do it. Perhaps you're too idealistic and haven't fully examined the practical.

54:48 Aspects of a venture. Oh my god. Or you may emphasize wealth to the exclusion of other things. Wow, serious, because it was. Always about Oh like I come from a wealthy family. Yeah, it's like, well, none of that really has anything to do with you, no matter, because you're a piece of shit. Yeah, that makes me read the read the part above that again, perhaps you're too idealistic and haven't fully examined the practical aspects of a venture. That reminds me of like if he I mean he was convicted, so like he did it right. We can say that like the car thing, like not putting the seat back, like not being prepared having the suitcases.

55:31 All of the Yeah, it's the key in it. Yeah, it's just very haphazard, it's very half ass. If the reading is about your job, the reversed page may show you're reluctant to take a job you feel this beneath you. Or any job. Yeah, or you might be unprepared for the tasks facing you. Sometimes this car means turning away from the material world to pursue a spiritual path. Well, I mean, you know you should have done that. Maybe he was because there's ghosts in his blood and he was doing cocaine about it. I don't know. It's a stretch, Okay. In a reading about love, you may seek a partner who provides financial security or takes care of you.

56:16 That's just so creepy. The purse or the nurse syndrome that is weird just because the purse was such. Yeah, oh godn't think about like the symbolism of him like taking her purse too, Like she was basically providing for them, and he in the end when she left him took her purse. Like that's very symbolic too. Yeah, huh. The fact that it has the word wow, I love when that happens to us, Okay, last sentence. Or it may mean you're not holding up your end of a relationship's responsibilities. Feels like the understatement of several.

57:00 Decades son, husband, dad, not holding up your end of any of those relationships. Caitlin's put she's knocking it down. I'm upset it. Oh boy, what. Dude, Okay, I'm just gonna read the reverse interpretation. I won't do all of the bullet points. But I was drawn to the King of Pentacles, right. Could you accidentally? Yeah, to read it, it's in reverse. When reversed, the King of Pentacles indicates sluggishness, delays, and or obstacles to material success. Sometimes it shows low energy or insecurity. For sure, you feel stuck but don't have the drive to get out of your rut. If the card represents an actual person, he may be mercenary, course, dull witted, or even corrupt.

57:53 Dull witted, fucking doom. That's funny because you kept saying that too. It's like, I feel kind of bad sometimes, like picking on someone for their intellect or lack thereof. But come on, ah, well, I feel a little bit vindicated by that. I feel like I made the right choice in reading that. To be honest, I'm proud of you. Thank you for going with your gut. Oh my gosh, that's so crazy. It's like it's so many like key words. We were literally just talking about how when we pulled Taro and I was talking about the train episode. Right in the train crash and like we had snow on the card and like this just happens, like we were just talking about that.

58:35 Yeah, I like it. We did it again. I love it. Well, should we get you out of here singing? What to your massage? Getting a massage? After listening to all this sad, stressful stuff, you can put this two parter behind you and go relax. I know, I know I will probably just be thinking all about what I want to talk about next. Please don't do that. Please relax. Everyone send her vibes of relaxation from the future, okay. And maybe case recommendations, I don't know, whatever. Send no story. Email homicide at gmail dot com or the Facebook group. I know we've had people sending you there.

59:16 There's a Treon. You can chat with us on Patreon. There's a group chat, or you can message us directly. Yeah, I've got a few that I've actually started looking at. And you know how this is, It's just like kind of one just sort of grabs you and you go, Okay, this is what I'm gonna do for now. Yeah, I'm probably going to come back to all of these other ones that I've been looking at, but it's like the one that like just speaks to you. However, in the moment, Yes, I can relate for sure. I had that moment. And then I got really freaked out that the name was so familiar and I know the case, and I was going through our.

59:58 Catalog of episodes. You already do it? No, I mean I cannot find where like it. We didn't, But I feel like there's part of me that like has this like muscle memory or like imprints of the case. You're just remembering doing it in the future. I guess I'm having like maybe it's kind of a deja vous thing in a way. Maybe you heard another podcast. About it a while ago, or I almost certainly have. But yeah, it was really freaking me out because I was like, I really want to I really I think I want to do this one next. And I was starting to listen to like I don't know, like some like newscast or something that I found like on YouTube or something about it, and I was like, sounds too familiar, like or you've even come across like that same thing looking for other things.

1:00:48 I don't know what it was. I was like, I have not covered this case. Maybe it's like very similar to something else. I wonder if when you read it to me, like I'll be able to pin wait something, or if it feels familiar to me for me, I. Think maybe we'll talk off air about it, because I was like, well, Cassie's not going to remember like every case, Like if I think I can't remember, why would I think you could remember? But but you could also search for it, and we're so good about putting the names in the show notes that it would it would pop. Up, I know, and I can't find anything. Like I searched with even like kind of more obscure terms like not even like specific names, and it wasn't coming up.

1:01:31 And I'm like, okay, I really haven't covered this case. But something in me was like I really feel like I've covered this and it was so bizarre, it was so weird. So yeah, maybe it's it's deja vous. I don't know, do you get deja fu? I'm not going to keep saying an all right, all right, should we do that thing? Yeah? All right, I have a crap day. See next Tuesday. Or the Tuesday after whichever my birthday then, so whatever, not a special Yeah, it won't be quite the same energy. It could be somebody out there's birthday though. I mean it's someone in the world, but it could be a creepy person's birthday listening. So happy birthday. If you're listening into your birthday, it will be friend of the pod Stephanie's birthday.

1:02:21 Oh okay, happy birthday, Stephanie. We're exactly a week apart. He's so cute. The same age, yes, twenty eight, yep, you got it. Hello, Hello, Okay, then just kidding. It's the elderflower. It is. It does something to you. Oh and Chris had orange marmalade on his toast this morning. Whoa, I know that's like an English like tea time thing, right or am I crazy? Thanks? Or it's like Southern. I don't know one of the two. It's something. It felt fancy.

1:03:02 I was like, it's either fancy English or fancy Southern.