Two Girls, Two Parks, Two Killers: Michella Welch & Jennifer Bastian | Tacoma, Washington

0:00 The belief that the North End was insulated from major violent crime evaporated seemingly overnight. Parents stopped letting children play outside, unattended, neighborhood watch program surged, and a pervasive sense of fear gripped the community for decades. And that's a pretty hard turn. You go from basically being able to ride your bike to a park, you know, a mile or two away to not being able to like leave your house unsupervised, particularly after Tacoma had been honored with the All American City Award by the National Civic League in nineteen eighty four. So are you just gonna like do the intro with me and just see if anybody notices or I don't know, should we introduce you and nounce you something more official or do you think they'll even notice.

0:52 Nobody cares about me. I don't think they're going to care. But don't you think they're going to realize that you're not Cassie? Like halfway through the episode? I think they might. Wait a minute, wait a second. This is PNW Hants and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the parent normal, and all things spooky in the Pacific Northwest And what is occasionally become accustomed. Now is a little bit of like puppy ASMR. Depending on Charlotte's mood, we do a little bit of that, and then we also do a Tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight into our topic. Yes, yes, and I'm really excited because I have a brand new tarot deck, so maybe we'll use that today.

1:50 Oh yeah, I see it. Say it. Okay, I saw it before and I see it again. Yeah, you're like, she's always showing me her Shenanigans, love Shenanigans. In case you. Noticed already, and not halfway through the episode. I'm Caitlin, but that is not Cassie. Oh hi, oh hi. Yeah, very convincing though you're doing You're really you're nailing it so far. Great. This is my husband, Chris. Hello, it's been a little while since you've done an episode with me. Yeah. It's always wonderful yet worrisome. Yeah, because it's great to be here. But I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, but I'm just gonna fake it till I make it.

2:40 That's perfect. It's a strong strategy. Honestly, it's worked for me, all right. Well, hopefully when you say you enjoy being here, you mean that the content isn't, uh like the worst part. Of your day. That's the worrisome part, the worries some part. Okay, yeah, I mean that's fair enough. You kind of know what you're getting into. But on the other hand, you really have no idea what you're getting into. It's always still so shocking, it is. I'm still surprised at how awful people can be. You've got stunned Pikachu face over there, how spooky shit can be. All right, well, I will get into it.

3:21 We'll get started. Tacoma in nineteen eighty six was a working class city in transition. It still bore in part the industrial identity that had defined it for generations, still carrying the faint, sulfurous smell of Poulp mills that gave rise to its nickname, the Tacoma Aroma. Oh I love Ryman. I know, I know you'd like. That alliteration in rymen. That's all I need. It's the best. But it was also beginning to reach towards something different. The North End neighborhood where Michelle Welch lived was a quieter, middle class pocket of the city. It had tree lined streets, modest homes, and then there was Puget Park. It was a heavily wooded ravine park that families used freely and children roamed without adult supervision.

4:14 Because it was the eighties, What a wonderful time. I mean, I couldn't say. Come home when street lights come. On, right, Yeah. I feel like there were a couple of different people that really commented on how that's sort of the trope of growing up in the eighties, and they were like, it really was true. It was the kind of park where kids disappeared into the trees for hours and parents didn't worry until they had reason to. Michelle's mother, Barbara Leonard, was a single mom to three girls, Nicole nine, Angela eleven, and Michelle twelve. According to her family and friends, Michelle was confident and energetic, and she loved riding her bike.

5:03 She was also a very kind and responsible older sister that loved to read and played both the piano and the violin. Wow, pretty well rounded kid. On the afternoon of Wednesday, March twenty sixth, nineteen eighty six, Michelle and her sisters rode their bikes to nearby Puget Park. They had the day off from school at least it was the week of spring break, and the girls had an afternoon piano lesson Because they all took piano lessons. Their mother happy that as a single mother, that not only was she able to provide a nice home for them in this neighborhood, but also like this type of little extra, which three kids and piano lessons, that doesn't.

5:48 Feel so little, like well done mom, I know, good for her. Oh the eighties. I can't even imagine trying to raise three kids on a single I can barely raise myself on a single income. It's well documented, just a different time. Pugett Park is a steep, heavily wooded ravine popular for jogging. The wild urban green space is populated with numerous native plants with dense tree cover. But it was very familiar territory Michelle had visited countless times. It was roughly two miles from their house from what I was hearing.

6:29 Not that far back then. No, No, especially on a bike too. I feel like that goes pretty quick. Yeah, and you're twelve, so you have boundless energy, no responsibilities really to speak of, of course, sounds like a dream. It was around eleven eleven thirty when the girls realized that they had forgotten their lunches. Whoops, whoopsies. So Michelle, of course, you know, being the good big sister, she rode home to fetch their sandwiches. While she was gone, her sisters them were like, shoot, we need to use the restroom. Of course they did. Yeah, it's three little girls, somebody is going to have to pee. It's just a statistical inevitability. And back then this park didn't really have like public restrooms, so they went to a nearby business.

7:22 To use their facilities. While they were there, they used the phone to call their homes landline, but no one answered. They made an additional call to a babysitter, though at the time Michelle and her sisters were not actually under that babysitter's care. But I think they were starting to get a little bit concerned, just because enough time had passed that. They were like, well, she should probably be back. So they assumed that Michelle was already on her way back to the park. They thought, you know, maybe she's already back at the park, and so they decided they would just return as well. So they arrived back at the park around one pm, So, I mean that is a pretty good chunk of time considering how close they lived.

8:06 By two pm, there was still no sign of Michelle, though the sisters had found her bike, as well as the sandwiches that she had laid out on a picnic table. That's not a good sign. It's not a good sign. No. Her sudden disappearance was reported to law enforcement. Officers arrived at the park by three ten pm. So, I mean it's a surprising turn of events because I feel like so many, especially back in the eighties, people would just be told, your kid just ran away. They'll come home. Yeah, they'll be back tomorrow. Yeah, maybe when they feel like it. Officers arrived at the park by three ten pm and conducted a preliminary search of the area. Though the investigation was quickly initiated, the park's dense vegetation, the public nature of the space, and the limitations of nineteen eighty six forensic science created many obstacles that they likely didn't anticipate would.

9:09 Literally take decades to overcome. Oh my spoilers, that was yeah, yeah, I was like, drop that little nugget in there. Michelle's body was discovered several hours later in an isolated fire pit area near a playground. At the park. So that is sick. It's a lot of yikes for so many reasons, because obviously nothing good has happened to her. But also I think. About what it would do to a kid if they were the one that stumbled on her body. It's like nightmare fuel that you're never getting out of your head.

9:52 A later probable. Cause affidavit states she was found on her back. Her top hadn't been completely moved, but it was raised, while the bottom half of her body was nude. Her pants and underwear left near her right ankle. Gross. Yeah, I know. It was like shit, Maybe I should have prepped you a little bit for this one. I was like nicky. Her March twenty seventh autopsy revealed a three inch depressed skull fracture on the right side, as well as a seven inch laceration to her neck. Michelle's cause of death was blunt force trauma to the head owing to the fracture.

10:40 A rape kit was collected and semen was present on one of the swabs. So I hate that, yeah, but also not something to work with. Yeah, I mean, I know, it's kind of one of those situations where you're like, I'm trying to find a silver lining in a pile of shit, and yeah, yeah, thinking that way in a sense does kind of make you feel like a literal devil's advocate. Two men were seen in the park that day. I'm sure, actually, you know, maybe a lot of men, but these two particular men were ones that witnesses basically described seeing or like interacting with.

11:28 One spotted under the bridge by a classmate of Michelle's, was described as a white male in his mid twenties. The other seen talking to Michelle was described as possibly Hispanic and somewhat older. Neither was ever publicly identified. Physical evidence was collected and preserved, but the technology to analyze most of it meaningfully just didn't exist yet. I think we all kind of inherently understand that with a case that's sold. Just a few months later, on August fourth, nineteen eighty six, thirteen year old Jennifer Bastian went for a bike ride at Point Defiance Park in Tacoma.

12:13 So these parks are like very close by to each other. What the fuck there's more? Yeah, I know, he's like, what that's I feel like that's fair enough. I feel like that's probably what the people of Tacaba were saying, you know. Yeah, it was about two thirty when Jenny headed off on her now Shwin bike. She was training for the upcoming San Juan Island's bike tour, so that was something she commonly did. She rode at this park frequently. She biked a lot. She had left a note behind at home that she would return by six thirty PM. Some of the reporting that I came across said that she had talked to her dad and he said, sure, you know, go ahead, you can go to the park, but you need to be home by six thirty, and so the note confirmed that she was like, Okay, I'm going to do what I'm supposed to. However, when she hadn't returned home by eight point thirty, she was reported missing. Point Defiance is significantly larger than Puget Park, with both inner and outer loops of five mile drive. The inner loop provides vehicle access to the park's attractions because like there's literally an aquarium, there's all of these other aspects of the park aside from just like biking, hiking. Back in nineteen eighty six, the outer loop was also open to vehicle traffic, but

13:43 following an erosion assessment in twenty twenty two, only non motorized. Vehicle access is allowed. Based on witness statements, Jenny was riding the outer loop. Sightings of her in or near the park were reported up until six pm, so should have given her, I would think, enough time to ride home. She was probably getting ready to leave soon, I imagine By five thirty am on August fifth, the following day, the police and bloodhounds had searched the entire outer loop of five mile Drive with no sign of Jenny. The exhaustive search efforts at the park continued weeks went by. On August twenty sixth, nineteen eighty six, around eight pm, a YMC jogger informed police they had encountered an odor along.

14:39 Their path. And given that this is the second disappearance in a handful of months. It's not fresh cut flowers. It's certainly not correct. When police searched the area roughly an hour later, they found nothing. Two days long later, around two pm, search dogs discovered the body of Jennifer Bastian hidden in an area with dense brush, her bike nearby also obstructed by the landscape. It was camouflaged by fern Franz, which is probably one of my favorite things to say now Franz. Yeah, not because of this, just because it's fun to say. Yep, it feels good. Though her manner of death strangulation was different from Michelle, she too had been sexually assaulted. The Tacoma Police Department worked alongside detectives from the Green River Task Force to process the crime scene. Patty, her mother, who had been struggling in the week since Jenny's disappearance, was trying desperately to channel her energy and anxiety into something, keeping herself busy literally however she could. She had been visited by Michelle's mother, Barbara, as search efforts were being undertaken for Jenny. So really

16:11 sweet because the mother of, you know, one of these girls, the first to go missing. Michelle goes to her and is like, I know what you're going through. Yeah, I just went through this. Yeah. She said it just seemed like the thing to do, which like, honestly kind of made me sob harder than almost anything, because I was like, it's just such a rare kind thing for someone to do, and I feel like, unfortunately some of these really awful experiences can bring out this just incredible kindness in people, And I feel like it's just like a little tidbit that feels like so significant about this whole huge story that we're gonna unravel. Obviously, but Barbara might have been one of the only people reaching out to support Patty that could truly understand what she was going through.

17:06 After all, when. Barbara had left the Bastion home, Patty kind of like almost chuckled to herself. She told her friend that was there at the house with her. I'm not sure why she came. Jennifer's not dead. Oh, holding on, that's yeah. She felt for the woman who had so recently lost her own daughter, but was so clearly focused on her hope of a different outcome in Jenny's case, And it makes sense. She was painting in the dining room of their family home when a detective showed up at her home with the news, and I thought, I feel like so many people must think that's such a weird thing to do, But I feel like painting is kind of one of those things where you can sort of do it absent mindedly, you're keeping yourself occupied. Like I feel like it's such a healthier coping mechanism to do something like that. Yeah, I mean, I didn't think it was that weird.

18:15 Why do other people think that was weird? I'm sure a lot of people do. On the surface, it seems kind of odd. Yeah, you're you're weird. The proximity in time, the city, and the circumstances led investigators to assume that a single serial killer potentially was responsible for both crimes. That assumption shaped the investigation for thirty years. Wow. And the proximity alone and the similarities between the two girls specifically, it's not hard to understand how that was the case, right, Yeah, I mean sort of researching, I was like, but kind of the mo is so different because they died in such vastly different ways strangulation versus like a head injury and you know, laceration really different, both very like personal I feel like, but I don't think you see a lot of killers that switch it up on their method.

19:22 It depends. It's all debatable, right, and every case is different, and so I just felt like, God, you know, they did a lot right, and they just had a lot stacked against them. Unfortunately, tips were pursued, suspects were examined, and the cases were reviewed multiple times, always linked as a pair. Really though the assumption seemed logical. As Patty Jennifer's mother put it, there couldn't be two monsters in Tacoma. I disagree. But and. These horrific crimes in ninety teen eighty six may not have changed the neighborhood's long term socioeconomic status or I mean, this neighborhood is really like it's a cool, like architectural wise neighborhood. So it didn't change that piece of what appealed about the neighborhood, but it completely altered the lifestyle and the psychology of the residents. And it's something that I heard so many people that were connected with each of these cases talk about, like how their mentality completely shifted.

20:32 Well, yeah, it would have to. The belief that the North End was insulated from major violent crime evaporated seemingly overnight. Parents stopped letting children play outside, unattended neighborhood watch program surged, and a pervasive sense of fear gripped the community for decades. And that's a pretty hard turn. You go from basically being able to ride your bike to park, you know, a mile or two away to not being able to leave your house unsupervised. It's understandable. It's a hard turn, though, particularly after Tacoma had been honored with the All American City Award by the National Civic League in nineteen eighty four. The organization and accompanying award recognized communities that leverage civic engagement as well as inclusiveness and innovation to successfully address local issues. Tacoma, however, began making national headlines as crime spiked in the area broadly speaking in the late eighties and early nineties. This was actually happening all over the country, nineteen ninety one, marking the absolute peak of violent crime spiking in that era.

21:52 Nineteen ninety one is like gnarly, I remember it. I live through it. Sure you've You were just enough older than me that that, like you would be able to actually remember that more. You were pretty young though. Still. Yeah, but I mean kids remember seeing stuff in the news and things like that. Sometimes I I do not, because I was. I remember, okay, I was outside, all right, Yeah, that's right, rid, But yeah, well, no, I know it happens. Though it was hardly the most accurate picture of the city in the hearts and minds of many Americans. Tacoma was established as one of the most dangerous places in the country. And when you look at it, it makes sense because in terms of just homicide alone or like even more broadly violent crime as a whole, it spiked, Like the homicide rate was almost double the national average for a lot of that pure in Tacoma, But it was nowhere near some of the actual most dangerous cities in that era, which would have been Washington, d C.

23:11 New Orleans, and Detroit. Nowhere near I. Mean to this day. Yeah, yeah, that was in the water. They're hard to beat. Both cases remained unsolved through the late eighties and into the nineties. They were reviewed periodically by Tacoma police, but without the forensic tools needed to move forward, there was little progress. The preserved physical evidence from nineteen eighty six satin storage waiting for science to catch up. Over the years, investigators vetted thousands of potential suspects across both cases. In one of the cases, I know that they reviewed over two thousand suspects.

23:53 Wow, which is pretty crazy. And I'm sure that you know some of those people are maybe getting more of a cursory review, but I mean to think about the time that that takes, takes a little bit, a little bit. Still, none could be conclusively tied to either crime, let alone both. The linked case theory meant resources were directed at finding a single person who could account for both murders. In retrospect, that framing of the investigation may have narrowed the search in counterproductive ways. That's the benefit of hindsight. Though by twenty thirteen, investigators finally had a lever. Previous testing had failed to recover a usable.

24:37 Male DNA profile. However, the swimsuit she had been wearing was preserved. That's why we hold the evidence good on them. Yeah, that's why it's so maddening in some cases, which I think like West Memphis that case, they're like, oh, oh no, we don't have the evidence anymore, and we're like, listen, they. Don't think it's important at the time. Well they should have, because especially in that case where there's already a lot of you know, sort of insinuation about the authorities actually being involved in some sort of a cover up.

25:18 Well, actually I know a lot about that case, and here are my thoughts on it. I was so excited. Very briefly, I'm. Oh, I could have bullshited my way through it real good. Oh yeah, no, I couldn't you know too much about it? I do. What are you talking about. It's been a while since I've looked at it, and I've obviously not like researched and written it up because uh but yeah, I think I would have caught on eventually, but I should have known from the jump, so who knows. Although the swimsuit had been examined years earlier, due to advances in DNA technology and the urging of an out side panel of experts, detectives had it retested this time.

26:05 They got a male DNA profile that could be used. They also recovered hair. His hair presumably fuck yeah. When they compared it against the profile from Michelle's case, the samples didn't match. The results were unambiguous on one critical point. The DNA from the Welsh crime scene and the DNA from the Bastion crime scene did not come from the same person. Okay, after nearly three decades of chasing a single predator, they were looking for two. I think this is literally an investigator's worst nightmare. Yeah.

26:49 I feel actually really bad for them because it does seem like a lot of effort went into these cases and to just find out, like, holy shit, your theory's blown out of the water. Yikes. Yeah, nearly thirty years of linked case theory collapsed. Two separate killers, two separate investigations, which is pretty wild. Given again, the proximity. It just it blows my mind, It really does, because the similarities are so similar. Rape and murder from the same town. Yeah, I mean just so close together, and both blonde haired, blue eyed little girls riding bikes in a park. I get it, they're you know, little girls, and so there are bound to be some striking similarities. You know, probably a lot of cases. But it just I can't get over it. He's unimpressed.

27:49 Just yeah, like, okay, there's a couple, yeah, similar things. But it wouldn't be enough for me to be like, oh, the same person, we have a serial. Killer on our hands. No, for sure, I means, wow, we're outlawing bikes. Now. I mean the fact that it was less than six months between the two. I think that's a big part of it. And obviously we. Understand that something happens when like the fear is activated in your brain, you know, it changes the way that people think the Tacoma Police Department partnered with Parabond Nanolabs, and Detective Lindsay Wade engaged genetic genealogist Barbara ray Venter, the very same researcher whose work would soon identify the Golden State killer.

28:42 That Barbara yeah R WHOA. She applied investigative genetic genealogy to the Welch case and uploaded the killer's profile to family tree, DNA and jedmatch, a public genealogy data. From there, she began building family trees from partial DNA matches, working outward from distant relatives to narrow the field of possible suspects. It's really interesting. They surfaced two second cousins, one in Washington, and built the tree out to third and fourth cousins and pointed police eventually.

29:24 At two brothers. The Bastion case took a different path. Robert Washburn had called Tacoma police in May of nineteen eighty six, before Jenny was even killed, claiming to have seen a suspect matching a sketch developed in the Welch case while jogging in Point Defiance Park. So he says, I saw that guy. His name sat in the case file for thirty years after DNA proved the Welch and Bastion murders had been committed by different men, Detective Lindsay Wade rebuilt Jennifer's suspect list from the ground up. She talked about it at length, literally thousands of people while reviewing decades of reports.

30:09 One name caught her attention. Washburn. He had inserted himself into the investigation in nineteen eighty six, and his surname stood out among the names detectives had never fully eliminated. In twenty sixteen, Wade added him to a new list of high priority suspects. For DNA elimination. Now, I watched I believe it was Dateline about these two cases, and she said that they had I don't remember the exact number, but I over one hundred and sixty DNA profiles that they were going to try to process for elimination. Yuck.

30:51 I mean, the gathering of all of that and just the possibility that you're, like, we've narrowed it down and it's still one hundred and sixty people that were just like, you know, taking shots in the dark. The following year, investigators contacted Washburn in Illinois because he had moved where he voluntarily provided a DNA swab. Idiot. I know he implicated himself in the first place by reporting this tip to the police, and then he gives over his DNA. I don't know what he was thinking. Instead of eliminating him the sample match the male DNA recovered from Jenny's swimsuit. Maybe he just fully had a complete lack of understanding about how DNA works.

31:40 I don't know. The genetic genealogy work on Michelle's case eventually narrowed to a family in Tacoma's North End. Investigators identified Gary Hartman, a sixty six year old nurse at Western State Hospital, as a person of interest. He was one of the two brothers to confirm detectives needed a voluntary DNA sample or a sneaky one, because they decided they couldn't really ask him directly without tipping their hand, so both of the brothers were surveilled basically so that they could collect discarded DNA, which I think you know now this has become something of a common practice.

32:25 We all know. You know some of the ways that it's been done over time, or the ways that certain people like Coburger have actually avoided potentially leaving DNA that could be recovered in this way. After his brother was excluded, they focused on Gary. On June fifth of twenty eighteen, detectives followed him to a restaurant and retrieved a napkin he'd used while dining with a coworker from the hospital. The DNA from the napkin matched the DNA preserved from Michelle Welch's nineteen eighty six murder scene. After arrest, a warrant reference sample confirmed it at one in six quadrillion.

33:10 Damn. Yeah, So we would literally have to gather six quadrillion of our closest friends and in that sample, the statistical likelihood that anybody else did this that like, that's what that means, because I mean, we it's very fresh in my memory still the case where it was one in one hundred and thirty two. So like at a high school, there could be four people, you know, in a large class that would potentially match versus. One in six quadrillion. I feel like I feel comfortable with those kind of odds. And that's just the DNA right then you couple on the fact that he lived in that area, Yeah, exactly, already factor in that end.

33:57 I mean presumably, you know, if in this case it doesn't sound like he ever came on to their radar, like because geographically he was close, maybe eventually they would have gotten there, maybe somebody would have come forward. I mean, after all this time, it seems unlikely like if anybody had seen him clearly, like that connection wasn't made. So really like the genetic genealogy is how they came to Gary Hartman. We got him, We got him. Gary Hartman was arrested during a traffic stop in Lakewood. Gary Hartman had lived in Tacoma's North End in nineteen eighty six, the same neighborhood as Michelle Welch. His brother also lived in the North End at the time. He was a nurse by profession, a detail that adds particular weight to the violation of trust and just.

34:52 Yuck, what else did you do? Gary? Right? I know, it really makes you think there was no prior criminal record that had flagged him. During the original investigation. He was by essentially every outward measure and ordinary community member. But I mean, no, he wasn't. Nope, people thought maybe he was, But people also thought that about you know, John Wayne Gacy and Dahmer so Gary Hartman was charged with first degree murder and first degree rape of a child. He elected for. A bench trial, meaning that it wouldn't be a jury deciding his fate, rather a judge. During the trial, the prosecution presented the genetic genealogy evidence and the Napkin DNA match as the centerpiece of its case, because I mean that kind of was their whole. I mean, I don't know what else they presented, if they, you know, came up with anything else, but I feel like that one was kind of a slam dunk.

35:57 They're like, I don't know that we really need anything else. In under two hours, the judge convicted him on both counts because didn't have to debate with anybody pretty quick. At sentencing, Hartman appeared in court using a walker and addressed the court, apologizing for the horrific crime through sobs. So he admitted to it, then, he yeah, he did. He received a sentence of twenty six years and six months, the maximum sentence available under the guidelines applicable to the nineteen eighty six offense, which is super annoying because I mean, he's old enough now that I don't think it'll matter he would be like, I want to say, ninety.

36:41 Six by the time he would be released. In theory, which is essentially what I saw was that's basically what the judge said. The judge was like, yeah, he's he's gonna definitely die in prison. So bye, So nice to not meet you. In twenty eighteen, Robert Washburn was arrested in Eureka, Illinois. He was extradited to Washington State, where his confession about the decades old crime finally put long awaited closure in the case within reach. He was charged with first degree murder and convicted in January of twenty nineteen. He was sentenced to three hundred and twenty to three hundred and forty months in prison, roughly twenty six and a half to twenty seven years, So they got like almost identical sentences, which is really interesting, with a minimum of twenty years before parole eligibility. I mean, I guess if that was the maximum allowable based on the date that the crime occurred. It makes sense because they're both heinous and everybody said throw the book at him.

37:52 And how old might he be? I think Robert was maybe a little bit younger, but Hartman was like said when he was arrested. So I mean, they're both in all likelihood going to die behind bars, and I've made my piece with it. Personally, I'm okay with it. Yeah, I feel good about it. Actually, Washington State's response to these cases extended beyond conviction. In twenty nineteen, Governor Jay Insley signed Jennifer M. Michelle's law, legislation that expanded mandatory DNA collection for convicted felons in Washington State. Okay, the law directly addressed one of the core systemic failures exposed by both cases that without expanded DNA databases, cold cases involving physical evidence can go unresolved for decades, even when the answer is preserved at the crime scene, because you got to have something to test it against. The law stands as a tangible legislative legacy for both girls, a systemic change that will affect the resolution of future cases for generations. There were some additional legal proceedings, and I kind of looked at the documentation about it. In relation to Hartman. I found a document it's State v. Hartman, and kind of in summary, it's

39:24 not just that he was convicted, but he actually tried to fight against the fact that they. He was like, you's no my DNA and. They were like, I don't understand why you have to be such a little bit about it. You threw it away, bro. Yeah. So the state fee Harman opinion, it's a precedent setting published opinion on an issue kind of for the first time in the state of Washington, and it gets at essentially whether or not you have a p privacy interest in DNA your relatives voluntarily upload to one of these you know, public sites like Jetmatch, and the court said nah, and separately that there's no privacy interest in DNA abandoned at a crime scene, which.

40:17 I think I'm not familiar with any. Cases where they, you know, a court has said oh no, yeah, you're right, they shouldn't have taken your DNA. That's your private information or whatever benefits far out in the negatives, it absolutely does. Yeah. So the other thing is Jetmatch. From what I understand, I don't think that they used to let law enforcement utilize their database. Huh. They flipped on that kind of around the time that these cases, you know, like we're getting the convictions and everything you do have to opt in. So like it kind of comes down to like individual opt in for like the person that's providing their sample, which maybe that's kind of a.

41:11 More fair compromise. It's like, then you're consenting because technically, you know, if it's a family member, I guess you know, do you want the right, the responsibility, the role of deciding, like, Hey, if one of my relatives did this, do I want my DNA to be able to like convict them? Welcome? Yeah, I think so too. It's about one hundred and eighty five thousand of the individual users out of about one point three million that have actually opted in. So it'd be super cool if the remaining one million people ish would go and just opt in now.

41:54 But and then there's. Still states that actually require warrants for it too. The legality of all of this stuff is very interesting to me. I am curious to see kind of what happens moving forward, But we'll see. And then, do you remember I said that. The park went to non motorized vehicle or pedestrian access only. On the outer loop. I've been waiting to hear. This, and I specifically cited that that changed when they did the erosion report in twenty twenty two. Well, it just seemed really I don't know. I couldn't decide if this was poignant or like a dumb thing. But both of these cases when unsolved for you know, multiple decades, literally while a portion of the landscape where these crimes occurred literally eroding into the Puget Sound. It's just like all of these crazy monumental things that are happening on this planet, and sometimes they are happening like simultaneously in the same place.

43:01 But I don't know, it just made me feel so small. I once saw a video the size of Earth versus the size of other things in the universe, and that made me feel really small. So I don't know. It just something about like kind of thinking about that and how you know, it's like the physical landscape versus thinking about how emotionally psychologically like these crimes changed like the landscape of like these neighborhoods in those ways. And it was just, I don't. Know, like the impact of all of the things that just happened quietly sometimes on a daily basis around us.

43:44 It was just like whoa can be poetic, It can be I don't know if that was, But I don't know either. I'm just trying to talk it out. I like it. Should we do some taro about it? Yeah, I would like to do that. I need some more insight into this. Why the fuck did this happen? And why did it take so long to figure it out? Tell us taro. Let me hear those wise words so I can make. Sense of this. I want to use the new tarot so to give. You a visual. Oh, it's a blue box.

44:26 It's called dog Tarot, and there is a dog on a couch laying down while he or she probably she is reading tarot. Oh. And you know what, if you'll notice there's a little bites out of some of the cards there. Because you are correct taking a bit. That's so funny. Oh and when you open it, the opening here looks like the roof of a doghouse does. And you know what, like the little dog on the side. Yeah, you see that. It looks like he's poking out of. It, poking out of the doghouse.

45:07 It's very cute. I got this on and outing with Cassie and some other friends. So you will see photos on the socials. So check it out the socials, like and subscribe, y'all. Sorry. I went through the deck and I pulled out a couple specifically to show off. Was there a little doxy? You know there was. I'm going to start with this one because it's pretty cute. It's the High Priestess. It's just a little bulldog wearing a witch's hat. Now did you did you pick this one out? Or you just grabbed it from the bulk? These ones aside because I just thought they were particularly cute, or they carry some significance.

45:52 Magician, you know this is my card? Cute? There is a little white terrier. Yeah, and like an autumn background maybe yeah, I love orange. For a treat. Oh yeah, we all have to do that. Yeah. And then this one is Cassie's card, the fool. Oh that's cute. A little golden retriever. I want to go for a while. I want to go for a while. It's got a little leash in its mouth. So cute. The Devil Wait. A minute, Okay, I get it. I was like, that's a cat. This is your dog, terre? What is this the devil? And then the death card?

46:35 Oh fireworks? Oh no, it's a sad little doggie. Yeah. I don't like the fireworks. I like it at all. And then the one you've been waiting for. Wait before we move on, did you have you told the story about Fourth of July? I haven't. I should tell it? Should I tell it before I show you? As so many people know, Fourth of July and fireworks are is the single day of the year where. Most dogs and other animals run away and a fear of all of those loud booms. And we were at a friend's house in Washington, Yeah, and we were enjoying some fireworks ourselves, and there was a dog running down the street and Caitlin picked up this little pup. She was a she, right, yeah, And they just went from door to door, knocking on people's doors.

47:35 Are you missing a dog? Yeah? And she found that little pup's home. I know. And we were pretty lucky. We figured she was very small, She's just a little she looked like the Taco bell dog. She was a tuma. Yeah, a little chee chee. But you know, we only had to knock on a handful of doors because I was a little bit worried, like what if we don't find her house right here in the neighborhood, Like, oh no, It's like I don't want to take her to a shelter if I don't have to just because I'm like, oh, I just worry, like will they be reunited? It worked out, it did. Apparently she was a retired service animal, so she had a very complex backstory.

48:22 A hero saving another hero. I know. I look at that. Oh you flat a bear? All right? What's this last card? Okay? The last one is as requested a doxy And I feel like there's a commercial that was on the Super Bowl like a few years back. It reminds me of like, this reminds me of it. Oh, I think I know what you're talking about. Okay, and me wand's it has a huge it's not a stick. It's basically just a tree branch. Yeah, run and around the sun in the sky, mountains and trees in the background. It's a beautiful it is it is, I mean to be honest, Like the size of the stick in proportion to the docs and carrying it. I was like, who gave that doc a chainsaw? That's just dangerous Now it ripped it off.

49:15 Yeah, it noted often that was a whole lass tree. Okay, do you want to give them a good shuffle out the deck? All right? That's a deep cut. So I'm gonna do what Cassie and I have been doing of late. I'm going to lay them out across when we're recording remotely. She I will put them out right in front of my keyboard, and she'll say, I'm thinking like kind of to the left. Or she'll be like, is there a card that's close to the pe on your keyboard? I'm feeling like the letter. P because she feels like she names a P. Probably, yeah, just gotta go. That's the heard, all right?

50:01 Do you want to help me weigh in here? It's a brand new deck, so I am feeling a little intimidated. Hmmm, I'm feeling I'm feeling here like on the right hand. Side, that's exactly the one I was thinking. Do you want to describe the card for our lovely listeners? It is a winter theme. I don't know what this card is, okay, five. Of it looks like it is the five of wands. Okay, so there's an I X down in the bottom. Right? Did I miscount the sticks? I mean, I don't know. I famously don't know Roman numerals. Cassie, the love of God, that would be nine? Right? Is that nine?

50:48 The one before? My gosh, I'm so black to ten, right, and so you have one the I before the ten, which would make it nine. So it's a winter theme. There's a snowman, a very sad snowman. His eyebrows are indicating that he's said, and there is a dog that's jumping up on the snowman I think, ready to take his little stick arm. Oh, and that's why the snowman. Said for sure. So if there was nine, I see one, two, three, four, five sticks in the snow above them, and then he's got little two stick arms. So that's only seven. I don't see nine.

51:32 Counting, but it does say yeah, I X yeah it is the nine of ones because it has a little tiny picture in the little book. The photos match. Yeah, confirmed, that was a close one. Put more sticks on your curd. Come on, yeah, come on, don't cheap out on the sticks. What are we pain by the stick here? I love it? Okay, So we're going to read from the Little Dog Tarot book, and then I will go to the main interpretation from our big book. You find yourself on another bend in the path where obstacles present themselves, and you're tired of fighting.

52:13 Keep going. You'll eventually reach those sticks even if you have to wait for that snowman. To melt a little bit. Hmm interesting. Okay, I'm going to read the upright interpretation, then we'll go to the big book. You can see your goal in this case, the snowman's stick arms confirmed but despite challenges snow and exposed pop heads. Yikes, that's in the book. I'm not saying that. Oh okay. The nine of One's reminds you that you've got this. You know, your tenacious, strong and tough. Those sticks didn't stand a chance.

52:54 Yeah, I mean, those cases took a long time to solve, and if they're weren't you know some tenacious people, people who kept that in memory and worked on it all over again. Yeah, this would have remained unsolved, but it did not. I know, they kept going around the bend, they kept after those sticks, and they got they got what they needed. Yeah, I'm going to see what the what the big book says. But I feel like that, I mean that was nice. Yeah, I mean I nailed it. I don't even I don't even know what else you could possibly say. They would like really clarify any more than that. But we'll see for the nine of Wan's keywords, are courage, recovery, strength, success, and conquest. The nine of wand shows you defending your territory. You've demonstrated courage and tenacity and proved yourself to be a powerful force. Now you're in a strong position where you command respect, support and rewards. This is also a card of recovery after a setback or illness. Nine's represent completion and fulfillment. When the nine of wands appears upright in a reading, it indicates you've finished a job and done it well.

54:16 I'm in come on seriously. As a result of oppositions you've faced and triumphed over. You've grown stronger, You've demonstrated self discipline, skill and wisdom and come out on top. In a reading about money, the upright nine suggests you've suffered losses in the past but gotten matters into hand. Now you're in a more stable position. In a reading about work, this card says the worst is over, stay the course, stand your ground. You've recovered from. Setbacks, and success lies ahead. In a reading about love, the nine shows you and a partner resolving difficulties. It promises happier times in your few sure perhaps you've both learned something important about yourselves and the relationship. There's an extra excerpt. It says, tie knots, the last of the single digit numbers. Nine signifies fullness and power as a result of three times three. It holds magical symbolism in spell work. To encourage the speed and effectiveness of an amulet or talisman, you can tie nine knots.

55:31 To close it, Well, there was a lot there. I'm glad those little girls got some justice. And yeah, their mothers and their families and the community. And I already forgot those guys' names because fuck them. They fucking suck. And good for you. You're able to probably just barely overpower a little girl. Yeah, few pieces of shit. Seriously, congrats on sucking the absolute most. It's funny though that, like in the interpretation in the Big Book, in that little extra excerpt, it specifically says to close it, there's sometimes these words that like I kind of glom onto and I'm like closing a case, like closing two cases.

56:22 Well, not everybody gets that closure, So yeah, we can take some solace in this case that there was some closure. Yeah, and I'm going to remember them for them playing outside and riding their bikes. I know, Patty kind of talked about that in particular. You know, of course, knowing everything now and the way that it's worked out, I'm sure it's a lot easier to like, you know, kind of feel like you you have closure for whatever that's worth. Right, But you know, she was being asked a lot about kind of how do you feel knowing like everything thing that happened. She was like, I have my own fairy tale.

57:05 She kind of you know, has accepted things as they occurred, but for her to think about it, she really just you know, kind of tries to imagine that the suffering was as little as possible. And I'm like, yeah, I'm sure it was. I hope it was. Yeah, I think that's what anyone would want. Well, thank you for doing this to me. I'm sorry inviting me. That's what I said. There you go, you put his husband hat back on. Well, should we say goodbye?

57:46 Do you know the thing? The thing? Okay? Have ay, We'll see you next Thursday. Your levels sound good. I think they sound pretty good. Boom boom boom boom boom boom boom. Okay, yeah, it seems to be enjoying that to put in her to sleep. Yeah, it's like her lullaby Wow three six nine, damn your fine. My puppy is disturbed.