To Train Up a Child: The Tragic Story of Hana Alemu

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The tactics espoused in fundamentalist Christian child-waring books such as,

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"To train up a child, written by Michael and Debbie Pearl, are plastered all over the

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Internet if you care to look."

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However, if you find violence against children, even those too young to walk,

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upsetting, you do well to maybe steer clear.

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They are very detailed instructions for every stage of development,

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and very specific about the types and level of corporal punishment that should be issued to children.

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Damn, dude.

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Hi, Cassie.

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Hi, Caitlyn.

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Hi, creepy people.

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Oh, hello.

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If you're not watching us, we are on location.

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You almost said in location.

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In location.

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On the location.

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Bear is seeing.

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We are in a secret location in the PNW.

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If you can't tell by the trees.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Oh, by the way, this is PNW Haunts and Homicides.

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Where we chat about true crime, the paranormal, I don't know, occasionally some other stuff as well.

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In the Pacific Northwest.

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Also that.

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Or the PNW if you're nasty.

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If you're nasty.

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If you're nasty.

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Are you nasty?

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If you're nothing, get out of here.

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Yeah.

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Bye.

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You probably don't want to stay just ahead.

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Yeah, you should go.

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Spoiler alert.

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It's going to get real weird for you.

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What else do we do?

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We do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little deeper insight into our topic.

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I forget to say if you're nasty, you forget to tell the tarot thing.

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It's a yes.

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What we do here.

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Yeah.

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It's a little ebb and flow.

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Give and take.

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Oh, man.

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Okay.

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Are you ready for this?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, one.

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I would recommend keeping it close.

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I'm prepared.

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Maybe I need a little puppy dog to snuggle me.

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Oh, she's off doing her own thing.

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This is um,

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this is a new one.

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It's good.

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Semiseko.

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Whatever that means.

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Semiseko.

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I'm more than semi approved.

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Easy loaded.

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We have fun here.

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It's a late reaction by me.

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Yeah.

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Well, that's all the fun we're about to have.

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Yeah, pretty much.

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Yeah.

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No, from here on out, it's going to be pretty bleak.

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So,

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I can't think of any business that we have that could possibly delay this.

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So, I guess we just get into it.

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Yeah, let's do it.

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Everything.

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I'm ready.

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All right.

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We're just going to go ahead and we're

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keeping an eye on our InstaCart order though as well.

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Three out of four items.

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Shopped.

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That's right.

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We InstaCarted four items.

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Four items.

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Because you know what?

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This relates because we have been drinking.

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So, we refuse to drive.

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Responsible.

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We talked about this recently.

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I was just going to say.

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Don't do that.

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Even if it's four items.

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InstaCart.

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That bitch.

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Yeah.

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I don't think the item number is what is of concern.

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But, but moving on.

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Larry and Carrie Williams,

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a seemingly happily married

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Cedro Wolley couple,

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lived with their family in the community known as

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the gateway to the Cascades.

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Oh, that sounds nice.

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Yeah.

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Quoting the official Cedro Wolley website,

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the city is located on the western edge

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of the majestic Cascade mountain range

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in Northwest Washington.

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Oh, we've talked about like a haunted hospital

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there before or something.

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Something haunted.

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I knew there was something we had talked about.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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I remember having to look up how to pronounce that.

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Well, but did you know this?

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Fun fact.

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When it was incorporated,

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it combined the names of two neighboring towns.

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Cedro and Wolley.

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I don't think I knew that.

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Learned something new every day.

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There's a different thread.

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You got to pull every time you research something.

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Yeah.

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I was midway through my research when I was like,

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is there anything that, I don't know, maybe anything that just

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isn't a complete and total bummer?

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Oh.

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But you can look up.

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Yeah, there it is.

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Yeah.

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You found it.

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Thank you.

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The city is north of Seattle, south of Bellingham,

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and a hell of a long way from Ethiopia.

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Yeah.

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That's the African nation from which the couple would eventually adopt

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two children in 2008, Emanual and Hana.

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In the mid to late 2000s, as the couple was bringing up their own family,

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there was a conservative Christian,

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read as a K.A. fundamentalist, homeschooling trend.

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Particularly amongst larger families.

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Many of those already large families also went on to adopt more children,

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frequently from abroad.

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The African continent proved popular amongst adoptees.

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Adoption, especially from abroad, was seen as an extension of the ministry, ostensibly.

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That's the icky part that I'm making faces at a little bit.

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A little bit.

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It makes me think that the Spanish Inquisition meets just run of the mill, colonialism.

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Like, why can't you just adopt to give someone a better life and be

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who their own person?

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Like, what do your own person have the best life you can add to your own person

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without me putting all my beliefs on you?

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What a novel idea.

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I hate that there were these weird tangential things that felt like

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sort of these like touchstone type things that I was like, "Oh,

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that feels like directly tied to me somehow."

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But I'm not trying to make this about me, but it was like all of these things that like have

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a significance in some like former fashion.

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And I was like, "Oh, you just shatter over it."

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Oh, man.

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Oh, no.

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So here's the first one.

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Okay.

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Above rubies, you know, just casually, my birthstones.

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I was like, "Wait, no, rubies my birthstone. That's cancer."

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Oh, it's July.

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Right, July.

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That's right.

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I get it.

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I always get it confused.

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Yeah.

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It goes by month.

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Yes.

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Yeah, we have the same birthstone.

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How cute.

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Are we so cute?

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We're both rubies.

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This is also about me, you guys.

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Yes.

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I mean, isn't it always?

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Above rubies was a fundamentalist women's ministry.

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Actually, still appears to be.

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They have a website that has been said to have inspired not just carry

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Williams, but many others to seek out adoptions, notably specifically in Africa,

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from the African continent.

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I don't like that either.

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Any kid that needs help from anywhere.

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Why does it specifically need to be from Africa?

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Are you African, is that why?

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Or, no.

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Well, no, but how would anyone know that I adopted this child if they weren't

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so clearly different from me?

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I've adopted this accessory child.

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Right.

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Well, they're starving children in Africa.

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Yeah.

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That's the only place.

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It's the Birken bag of adopted babies.

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Hi.

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The group is anecdotally linked to a surge in adoptions, specifically from Liberia.

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More than a few with seemingly less than ideal, and in some cases, even disastrous consequences.

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I'm thinking of the family that adopted and like the car.

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Yes.

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The Hart family.

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Yes, thank you.

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I was like, I know I know the name, but

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yeah, I know, but it almost seems like

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it's kind of cruel irony that

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heart is the last name.

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No.

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But yeah, your head just doesn't want to go there, I think.

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Getting back to the Williams' in 2008, they decided to adopt

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and begin looking into adoption agencies.

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Of course, they might have had some reticence about the first one that crossed their path,

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because it was

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secular.

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What does that mean?

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Non-religious.

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Oh, okay.

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I've heard them term, but I...

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Yeah, you're like, I guess I just live my whole life not actually knowing what that is.

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Yeah.

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I am secular.

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Sectacular.

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I'm kind of here for that.

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Roughly a decade has passed since the A.A.I.

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adoption advocate's international was shuttered.

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I'm not going to dive deep on the organization for now at least, but given the time for additional

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research, I wouldn't say it's out of the question for the future.

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Put it on the shelf for now.

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We're not going to put a pin in it.

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No, have you ever heard this?

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Put it on the shelf.

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Put it on the shelf.

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This is a religious shelf.

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Oh, no.

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Why is that a religious thing?

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My understanding, because this is not something that I actually have been directly told in my

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upbringing, but whenever you have something that sort of makes you question your faith,

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that makes you question the teachings, they say, put it on the shelf.

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Like to think about later or just to like not ever think about it again.

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You forget.

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Yep, that one is kind of the idea, I think.

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You put it on the shelf.

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Any reservations that you might have, so that you can continue to observe your faith.

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Faithfully.

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Yeah, just don't think about it.

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It's fine.

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Yeah, I wouldn't think too hard.

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In 2008, it was thanks to the A.A.I.

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that the Williams is were matched with a deaf Ethiopian child in need of an adoptive family

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unstable home.

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It's a lot to take on.

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Certainly not for the faint of heart, but for the Williams'es, their faith implored them to move

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ahead.

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Or maybe it was the fact that prior to their marriage and the birth of their seven children since,

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Kerry had actually studied American Sign Language with plans of becoming a Sign Language interpreter.

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Okay, well, that seems very helpful.

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It seems like that would be a good skill set for

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that particular adoption.

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Well, it's sounding better.

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Yeah.

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It seems that once the couple started their family, however, that dream fell by the wayside,

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that being the dream of becoming an interpreter.

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Oh, okay.

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I mean, you know, once you have seven children,

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kids are hard to do.

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And though the couple have been gifted blessings aplenty, their union had indeed been quite

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fruitful. Carry had wanted more children.

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Unfortunately, the couple would learn that complications related to her previous pregnancies

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00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,480
had left her unable to have additional biological children.

273
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:19,600
I mean, that sucks, but I mean, at a certain point, I think that is certainly a risk you run.

274
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,320
She had children or she did.

275
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,360
I think the couple had seven children at their own.

276
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:26,160
Yes.

277
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:27,520
Quite a few.

278
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,240
And I mean, my heart goes out to anybody that wants to have children or wants to have more children

279
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:38,080
and they can't, but my goodness, you know, what are you trying to get a TLC show?

280
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:39,680
I mean, maybe.

281
00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:40,320
Yeah, maybe.

282
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:46,080
But you know, when they say, when God closes a door, He opens a window.

283
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,920
I've heard that before.

284
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:48,240
No.

285
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,520
AI tells me that this saying when God closes the door, He opens a window,

286
00:12:54,160 --> 00:13:01,040
is a popular comforting phrase often used to suggest that even when things seem to go wrong,

287
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,080
new opportunities and possibilities will emerge.

288
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:12,480
This is considered an adage rather than a proverb because a proverb typically gives and I quote,

289
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,360
practical advice on how to live and behave.

290
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:16,720
Yeah.

291
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,120
That's the, you know, the biblical thing.

292
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,200
They've got the whole section about it.

293
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:22,880
Yeah, yeah, proverbs.

294
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:28,560
What if God closes a window and opens like a basement door or something like that?

295
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:33,040
Yeah, it just pulls like the, you know, old uno-reverse.

296
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:33,440
Yeah.

297
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:34,720
The light doesn't work.

298
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:35,360
Yeah.

299
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:35,920
What then?

300
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,840
Good question.

301
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:46,880
Whereas an adage expresses accepted wisdom, but does not always come in the form of advice.

302
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,360
So it's basically just like a thing that we say.

303
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,680
That means nothing.

304
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,920
Well, I was just going to say another famous example of an adage.

305
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,160
One might use this love is blind.

306
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:03,920
Many of us agree that's, you know, commonly accepted wisdom to some degree.

307
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,240
It's one example.

308
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:06,720
Okay.

309
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:07,360
Love, lie.

310
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:08,720
Use love, lie.

311
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:09,360
Anybody watch that?

312
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:09,360
Anybody watch that?

313
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:09,840
Yeah.

314
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:16,560
But, you know, the difference being that a proverb, it's, you know,

315
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:21,840
by virtue, it's a little more preachy because it's actually giving specific advice.

316
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:23,200
Okay.

317
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,120
Anyways, I thought I just, I went, that was the other rabbit hole.

318
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:27,360
Okay.

319
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,880
That's the light in this dark tunnel.

320
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:37,600
Each of these turns of phrase are likely to elicit a wide range of thoughts and emotions

321
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:43,760
in the context of adopting a child, particularly one that might have a disability.

322
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:50,160
Perhaps even more so when adopting not just the one, but two, in fact.

323
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,960
As nearly any prospective adoptive couple would,

324
00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:01,280
Carrie and Larry jumped through the litany of necessary hoops with the adoption agency.

325
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:07,600
The now former director of social services for A.A.I.

326
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,000
stated that prospective adoptees would be disqualified

327
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,720
for admitting their parenting practices included spanking.

328
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,320
Okay.

329
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:19,600
That's interesting.

330
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:20,080
Yeah.

331
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:26,800
How long ago was this dating back to 2007, 2008, roughly?

332
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:27,040
Okay.

333
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:32,400
I feel like that's almost about the time we're spanking became like, oh, y'all don't do that.

334
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,080
I don't really.

335
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:35,840
Makes sense.

336
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:36,160
Yeah.

337
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,560
I'm not saying that that's wrong, but yeah.

338
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:44,400
But I guess it's fair to say that both Carrie and Larry likely omitted their own beliefs and

339
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:50,320
practices from any application forms and conversations they held related to their adoption.

340
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,280
Of Emmanuel and Hannah.

341
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:58,720
Oh, so you're saying they were spankers, but they did not admit to it.

342
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:03,120
As previously alluded to, Carrie and Larry held and practiced

343
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,920
fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

344
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:12,800
Every couple household and family should have the freedom to decide what ideology guides their lives,

345
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,760
but when it comes to actual practice.

346
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,800
Unfortunately, we step into some problematic territory.

347
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:27,120
For argument's sake, let's say that you've set aside the fact that the guiding principles of

348
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,320
fundamentalist sex of Christianity reduce women to objects.

349
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,560
Let's just say that doesn't bother you somehow.

350
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:42,000
Or, you know, if your rose-colored glasses are handy, more generously, one might view them as vessels

351
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:48,960
created for the sole purpose of subjugation and obedience to first and foremost, of course, God.

352
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:55,360
Swifferly followed by their fathers and then, of course, eventually later, their husbands.

353
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,840
Also, other male relatives all along the way.

354
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,000
Pretty much any man before your own self is in charge of you.

355
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:04,320
Correct.

356
00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:04,800
Yes.

357
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:05,520
Got it.

358
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:05,840
Got it.

359
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:12,480
The tactics espoused in fundamentalist Christian child-waring books such as

360
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:20,640
"To train up a child, written by Michael and Debbie Pearl are plastered all over the internet if you

361
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:21,280
care to look."

362
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,880
However, if you find violence against children, even those too young to walk,

363
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,560
upsetting, you do well to maybe steer clear.

364
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:33,040
Oh.

365
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,240
This is like instructions, like abusive instructions?

366
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:38,560
Yes.

367
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:44,640
They are very detailed instructions for every stage of development.

368
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:53,760
And very specific about the types and level of corporal punishment that should be issued

369
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:54,720
to children.

370
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:55,520
Damn, dude.

371
00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:00,720
In subreddits discussing the couple, the book, and their ministry,

372
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:06,800
you don't need to go beyond the first page of comments to feel your heart literally break inside.

373
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:14,640
The BBC released a piece entitled "Child Training Book Triggers Back Clash,"

374
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:20,000
which is not only fair to say, but perhaps a frontrunner for the understatement of 2013,

375
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,440
the year in which it was published.

376
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,840
Well, I'm glad it caused some sort of backlash and everyone wasn't just like, "Yeah, sure.

377
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,840
Let's... yeah, that sounds good."

378
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:28,800
Yeah.

379
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:34,560
I think, unfortunately, the backlash is already being felt, being seen,

380
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:40,800
heard in groups that would never enact these types of behaviors.

381
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:41,600
Right.

382
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,880
Sort of an echo chamber situation, but people are still like taking this and using it.

383
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:56,160
I don't know that I have come across a super recent case, but anybody who

384
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:04,800
doesn't have a complete utter aversion to hearing about investigating in terms of

385
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,800
true crime against children has come across this book.

386
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,200
Everyone, anyone, all of them, it feels like it's part of the canon.

387
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:19,840
The pearls-owned children appear to stand behind the lifelong work of their parents and are

388
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,000
themselves involved in the ministry.

389
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:29,920
The nonprofit No Greater Joy Ministries employed 18 people dating back to 2006.

390
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:37,040
Truth be told, however, the organization was David compared to Goliath-level Christian media companies,

391
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:42,880
such as Big Idea Entertainment, formerly known as Big Idea Productions,

392
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,680
and also the Media Production Company responsible for Veggie Tales.

393
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,320
Oh, interesting.

394
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:55,920
And now we get to the part of my research where I began to feel targeted.

395
00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:01,280
One of many times that I began to feel targeted.

396
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,560
Do you want Veggie Tales?

397
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:03,520
Oh, yeah.

398
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:13,040
And they mentioned Carmen, and yes, I have consumed quite a bit of the Carmen media as a child.

399
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:14,960
I don't know what that is.

400
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:15,280
Yeah.

401
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,960
I was not a Veggie Taylor.

402
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:20,160
Yeah.

403
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,280
There's like a brief moment in time where I went to church,

404
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,560
like we listened to Veggie Tales on the way there, but that was it, and I was not.

405
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:34,080
Apparently there was a Veggie Tales show up until about 2022.

406
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:34,960
Oh, yeah.

407
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,040
Doesn't appear to be currently running.

408
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:47,520
Which, listen, you know, religious programming in and of itself, not necessarily problematic.

409
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,840
Right. Veggie Tales, I spend years, obviously.

410
00:20:51,840 --> 00:21:00,160
I don't think that most of their programming was particularly problematic, but I don't quote me on that.

411
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:00,880
I'm not.

412
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:01,680
I don't know.

413
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,680
I literally know, Clue.

414
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,920
There could have been so much like messaging in their hidden.

415
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:08,400
Like that we just--

416
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:09,840
It's based on the Bible.

417
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:10,480
Exactly.

418
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:11,280
Yeah.

419
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,880
Hopefully it was just wholesome, you know, for kids.

420
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:15,680
I'm sure it was.

421
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:16,640
Oh.

422
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:24,880
Again, dating back to 2006, reportedly the pearls had sold or donated to churches,

423
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:31,600
military families, and community groups, more than a million copies of their works in various formats.

424
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,480
So we're talking about CDs, DVDs, books, all that.

425
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,600
As well as other materials related to the Christian family.

426
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,520
Their bi-monthly newsletter had 74,000 subscribers at the time.

427
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,040
That's quite a few.

428
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:49,920
Yeah.

429
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:56,880
Just the year prior back in 2005, no greater joy ministries represented a mere fraction of the

430
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,960
7.3--

431
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,600
My brain broke.

432
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:04,400
Billion.

433
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:05,040
Billion.

434
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,600
Did you say billion with a B?

435
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:08,320
Billion.

436
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,320
Billion.

437
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,200
Religious, publishing, and products market.

438
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,720
And that was 20 years ago.

439
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:17,680
Oh.

440
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:23,840
Now that they just will let any old evangelist into the White House directly, I can only imagine.

441
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,600
Anywho.

442
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:32,720
All of this is to say that when it comes to power dynamics within our society and the money that

443
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:39,920
there is to be made, even when it comes at the expense of others, some forces seem nearly

444
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,400
unstoppable once they gain a foothold.

445
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:48,720
Typical, fundamentalist Christian beliefs had more than just a foothold in the Williams household

446
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:49,440
by this time.

447
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:55,680
It wasn't long after they had decided to adopt a manual that the couple would be shown a video

448
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,400
that would change their own lives and countless others.

449
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:05,120
In the video, it said that Hannah was tearful but appeared healthy and the couple

450
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:08,640
were moved to seek her out for adoption as well.

451
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:14,320
Both Immanuel and Hannah came to the Williams family via an A.A.I.

452
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,480
affiliated orphanage in Ethiopia called Kadeen Merrett.

453
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:24,960
Both children were reportedly abandoned likely due to their health issues.

454
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,880
Oh, I mean, that's so hard.

455
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,880
If you can't take care of the health issues, you know, what do you?

456
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:33,760
Yeah.

457
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:34,880
What do you do?

458
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,240
Yeah, I'm not sure what that looks like in other nations.

459
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:45,120
I know that obviously we have like the firehouse laws where you can literally leave a

460
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:53,360
a baby at a fire station, at a hospital and, you know, no questions asked.

461
00:23:53,360 --> 00:24:00,400
And as long as you surrender the child safely, that is a-okay in the eyes of the law.

462
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,160
I don't know what that looks like in a lot of other countries.

463
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:04,400
Yeah.

464
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:08,960
I would assume that a lot of other countries have some

465
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,200
former fashion of a similar practice.

466
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:19,600
But it is really hard to hear about children that are being abandoned because presumably

467
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,600
health issues or I mean really just hard to hear about kids being abandoned.

468
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:23,840
Yeah.

469
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,880
I would assume I hope that it was in the hopes of someone else can take care of her.

470
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:29,280
Providing-

471
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,320
I don't- I just like don't want to deal with it, you know?

472
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:32,560
Yeah.

473
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:33,600
Although-

474
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,360
I mean to be fair, if you don't want to deal with it, please for the love of God,

475
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:40,800
give that child to somebody who will take care of it.

476
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,360
There's- I just feel as though there are so few excuses for

477
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:49,440
not doing the best that you can for a child.

478
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,480
I don't even like kids, you guys.

479
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,760
And especially in the end, if you're like adopting a kid who needs help, like you take-

480
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,600
like you're-

481
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,560
the-

482
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,600
I like you don't even know what to say, it's so obvious, but like fucking take care of it.

483
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:05,840
Yeah.

484
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:06,800
Yeah.

485
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,200
It does seem really obvious.

486
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,320
Yeah.

487
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:16,320
Both children were flown to the United States, a company by an escort,

488
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,080
though neither had ever met their adoptive parents.

489
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,000
That's so hard.

490
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,000
This practice is no longer allowed by the Ethiopian government.

491
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:32,000
It seems like common sense that an adoption should not be allowed to move forward and finalize

492
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,280
without the respective parties having met, but you know, I guess Hindsitis 2020.

493
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,280
Listen, if kids have no other place to go-

494
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,480
like if you are trying to place children in loving homes, I can understand how sometimes you are

495
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:53,520
maybe not always operating in ideal circumstances, but my God.

496
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:59,520
Can we just make sure they're going someplace better than, you know, wherever they were surrendered?

497
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:04,560
It's like you're ordering a kid off Amazon or something, like just shows a beard or one day.

498
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,440
Well, no home inspection, no.

499
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,400
An A.A.I. social worker did visit.

500
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,360
Oh, okay.

501
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:17,200
So they do that to follow up with the children and the family as they adjusted to the new home

502
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,960
and, you know, to integrating into the family.

503
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,880
I think goodness for that.

504
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:23,440
Yeah.

505
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,360
So they did do that, which feels like sort of the bare minimum.

506
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:34,160
You know, when you just basically expect someone to show up on a doorstep that they've never

507
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,440
darkened before and oh boy.

508
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:43,360
This was in the first six months following their placement with the Williams'es and included

509
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:46,080
some review of their medical records at the time.

510
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:54,080
While Hannah had been underweight at only 77 pounds upon her arrival, for contacts, she's about 13

511
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,960
years old. So very, very little.

512
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:03,360
Within those first six months, she had grown to 105 pounds, which I feel like is a very,

513
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:08,480
you know, healthy weight for her, you know, a young teenage girl.

514
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:15,200
I'm not totally clear on what her height was just going strictly from memory, but even if she

515
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:20,960
was really short like me, 105 pounds would be, that's a good, healthy weight, I think at that age.

516
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,720
She was also reading from a little house on the Prairie Book Series.

517
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:33,040
Which I feel like that's considered a literature staple.

518
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:33,840
Right.

519
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:34,960
My many in the age group.

520
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,760
I mean, hot tape?

521
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,480
I mean, I didn't even know it was books.

522
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:41,840
Oh.

523
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,600
I mean, I knew of the show.

524
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,080
I mean, I know pretty much if I thought about it, I would figure, okay, it's probably a book.

525
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:49,360
Cause like everything is a book.

526
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:50,240
Everything's a book.

527
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,560
But yeah, I just, I heard of the show.

528
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,320
So I never really thought about the books.

529
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:56,640
Yeah.

530
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:03,200
I feel like, I mean, it started out as books and so like kind of dependent, I mean, it's just like

531
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,080
anything else.

532
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:10,240
Whatever you were exposed to first is kind of the thing that wins out in general, but that's so

533
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,000
funny. I'm like, I didn't know for a long time that there was a show.

534
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,320
I'd read the books and I was like, oh, they made a show out of it.

535
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,960
Cause my mom had the book.

536
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:21,760
Oh.

537
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:22,640
Oh, okay.

538
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:30,240
Emanuel for his part was learning to sign in order to communicate with members of his new family.

539
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:36,160
There were kind people in relative proximity to the family and the local community that made

540
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:43,280
efforts to extend themselves, but found doing so wasn't meant with the warm regard they'd expected.

541
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,560
A fellow parishioner that also happened to be deaf had tried to converse with Emanuel,

542
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:54,400
but either Larry or Carrie would escort the boy from basically any situation where

543
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,920
he might have been able to have a private conversation with anyone outside of their home.

544
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,920
Oh, that's not, that's a red flag.

545
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,840
It's funny you should say that my next sentence. This is an early red flag.

546
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:13,360
You know, kind of a canary in the coal mine type of a, like the biggest,

547
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,120
like, ah, this kid's in trouble.

548
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:17,520
Yeah.

549
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:18,720
Yeah.

550
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,160
Why can't the kid have a private conversation?

551
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:22,640
Why not?

552
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:23,360
Yeah.

553
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,600
It's weird.

554
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:26,080
Why not?

555
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,120
Weird.

556
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:34,720
One day simultaneously in the not too distant future and somehow also not quite soon enough,

557
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,720
however, his voice would be heard.

558
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,160
Quart.

559
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,600
Oh.

560
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:48,880
After June 2009, there would be no further doctor's visits nor the oversight of the adoption

561
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:55,360
agency completing additional follow-up visits, at least none that were documented.

562
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,640
By this point, it seems the Williams'es would have been expected to assume responsibility for

563
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:07,440
providing updates per the standard adoption agreement with the AAI.

564
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,880
But the Williams'es never did.

565
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,520
And while there certainly are some laws enacted to

566
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:22,560
related to adoption, providing such updates to the agency was not compulsory.

567
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,600
At least as far as the law was concerned.

568
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:33,840
So legally, they have no obligation to provide any verification, any updates, no follow-up,

569
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:39,600
nothing once the children are officially, you know, permanently placed in their care.

570
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,160
Which makes sense in a way, in a way.

571
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:52,240
But you would think there are people that are invested in these children that have been placed

572
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:58,640
in your home. You would think you would care enough about letting them know like they did the right

573
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:04,320
thing. They found this child a good home. And they're just like, "Nah, I don't feel like it."

574
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:12,320
As stated by a former AAI employee, even if the updates do continue, there's no guarantee

575
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,120
of accuracy as adoptive parents would be self-reporting by that stage.

576
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,440
Right. Like, what does even the point?

577
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,160
Yeah. What are they going to say? Like, "Ah, we're doing so terrible at this parenting thing."

578
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:29,520
Well, yeah. I mean, exactly. I feel like the vast majority of people are, you know,

579
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:36,800
a self-assessment is, yeah, you're only going to get so much honesty, so much transparency.

580
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,200
Honor systems. Yeah.

581
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:45,600
According to court testimony, though none of the Williams' biological children slept in a closet

582
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,760
or took their meals outside in the cold. Hannah frequently did.

583
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:58,240
None of the bio children were served their meals cold, but both in manual and Hannah were on many

584
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:07,520
occasions. The adopted children were also physically disciplined far more than them, disciplined.

585
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,320
In some cases, to the point of visible marks being left behind,

586
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:18,560
by, and let's be clear here, what should accurately be characterized as abuse,

587
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:27,600
disciplined with really heavy, bunny ears, yeah, into train a child. They talk about selecting the size,

588
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:38,160
with length, and type of objects that, you know, you can use to physically discipline your children.

589
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:47,360
They talk about, and this is quite literal, babies, so that, you know, you can get more chores done.

590
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:55,120
You put them on a blanket, and whenever they try to crawl off the blanket, you hit them with,

591
00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:03,440
you know, you just hit them with the prescribed size and type of device.

592
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,600
And that way they learn that they're not supposed to leave the blanket.

593
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:15,120
It's not the point of raising a kid, so it leaves the blanket.

594
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,280
Right, but that makes it really inconvenient when you're trying to do chores about your household.

595
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,200
You want to just be able to set your baby on a blanket and know that it's not going to go anywhere.

596
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,200
Because that's on the child. Yeah, no.

597
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:33,120
I'm littered. We're talking about children that cannot walk.

598
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,280
Because they're talking about babies crawling on a blanket that they're physically,

599
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:45,040
the physical is literal, but disciplining. They're literally talking about hitting infants.

600
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,880
That's ridiculous. What doesn't leave the blanket?

601
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,040
Then it's never going to leave your house. What is now it's too scared to leave a blanket?

602
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,920
I don't know. I think it might run away screaming the first chance that they get.

603
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:08,960
Just to provide some context to that, I didn't want to read an entire chapter.

604
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,160
Things.

605
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:20,560
Not really my idea of worthwhile or award-winning literature, if you know what I mean.

606
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,680
But it's the context that you need.

607
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:29,280
Testimony continued to include details about the events of a particular date.

608
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,160
Beyond just the broad strokes testimony about the overall home life.

609
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:44,800
Said of that date, May 12, 2011, testimony provided was that Hannah was being kept outside.

610
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,840
No desperately about the cold could move. Carry Williams.

611
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,960
Quote, while Hana was getting cold,

612
00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:02,080
so mom told her to do jumping jacks, but she wouldn't do jumping jacks. This was later corroborated by

613
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:09,920
the testimony of another child from within the home. She almost exclusively at a certain point

614
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:18,800
started living out of doors. What the... like... in Northwest Washington. People live indoors.

615
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:28,000
I don't even like people who leave their dog outside. Yep. Two of the older brothers on this date in

616
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:37,840
particular and it sounds like possibly on other occasions, but on this day in particular,

617
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:45,600
were also said to have exited the home. Hit Hana with a switch when she appeared to have given up

618
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:53,200
on exercising for warmth. You may have guessed at this point that the court didn't become involved

619
00:35:53,200 --> 00:36:00,160
along with media just due to abuse in the Williams family home, which would be horrific

620
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:08,560
in and of itself. And certainly worthy of creating concern and bringing that to light.

621
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:16,560
Sadly, it was that day in May of 2011 that Hana passed away, face down, in the mud outside of

622
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:22,480
family's rural home. The coroner testified that Hana's legs showed she could have recently been

623
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:28,800
struck at least 14 times. With an implement like the plastic tubing, the Williams family was known

624
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:34,720
to have used to discipline their children. It's very popular amongst the... to train a child,

625
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:39,840
group, demographic, whatever you want to call them. I got a lot of things I want to call them.

626
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:50,000
When Hana's body arrived at the corner in 2011, she was reportedly down to between 76 and 80 pounds.

627
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:58,400
So right back to her pre-adoption weight. And she was older. She lost approximately 30 pounds. Holy

628
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:06,000
shit. At the time of her death, she was lighter than 97% of girls in her age group.

629
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:13,120
Photos taken at the time of her autopsy are said to all too adequately illustrate the devastation

630
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:20,720
her body endured. Essentially, she was emaciated. And her ultimate cause of death was said to be

631
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:27,600
hypothermia. Yeah, what the fuck did they expect? Like, how do you expect someone to live and

632
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:39,120
survive outside on no food? Very little food, often cold food, being physically, these children

633
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:45,120
were being beaten. Until like doing jumping jacks for warmth. But how do you have the energy to do

634
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:51,200
jumping jacks even? Not that that's a good way to warm up a child who's outside being abused. But

635
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:56,560
how do you expect them to do jumping jacks if they're not even fed? I don't think she

636
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:06,720
and I say she, I do view in this case someone who was the full-time caregiver as, you know,

637
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:14,800
essentially a stay-at-home mom. That person I view as being maybe disproportionately responsible

638
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:24,480
compared to the father figure in the home. But one thing that I came across in research and I heard

639
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:33,280
in red was that there were those that had said, "Carry told members of like prayer groups and other

640
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:39,920
like women's groups that she was a part of associated with the church that, you know, she wouldn't

641
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:54,400
wish this child on anyone." And I think they did not realize she looked very small. Also, I will

642
00:38:54,400 --> 00:39:03,280
show you some pictures that are available of Hana and she appeared much younger because of,

643
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:10,240
I mean, she was just such, I mean, just diminutive compared to other children her age here in the

644
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:19,280
States. I have to imagine. But when she arrived and it was clear that she was, you know, she's a teenager

645
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:26,560
because she started to exhibit parts of puberty, like having a period.

646
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:36,800
Carry didn't like that. But she was like that. I basically, I didn't adopt a child. I adopted,

647
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:45,600
I adopted a woman. Now I just have this like inconvenience. Wow. Because kids don't grow up eventually, too.

648
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:52,080
Yeah. Into women. And also it's still a fucking child. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm here.

649
00:39:52,080 --> 00:40:02,320
No, I mean, every and that goes in my mind that just goes to sort of the backwards thinking that

650
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:13,280
is included in scripture about female bodies and about that like our development. And I was like,

651
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:22,160
I don't know, I don't know what else to point to as being, how else does a grown-ass woman who has

652
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:30,480
experienced these things for herself? How does she have so little care for a child? I mean, these

653
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:37,520
are normal parts of development for an adolescent girl. And she has seven other kids, right?

654
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:43,520
Yep. Did none of them grow up to have periods? They all just stayed six forever? Hard to say.

655
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:51,760
I don't, and it's unclear to me how many boys versus girls that they had. And it doesn't,

656
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:59,280
it doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter. You could have seven boys. And this would still be

657
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:08,720
just wildly unacceptable behavior. Thankfully, Carrie and Larry were found guilty on almost all the

658
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:17,760
charges brought against them. I really, I hope that nobody is offended that I did not go into

659
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:26,000
greater detail about sort of the events that specifically on the day in question that led to

660
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:33,440
Hannah's death because I, it's really rough. I feel like Carrie at one point is on the phone with

661
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:41,440
her husband. She has not gotten in touch with emergency services. And he actually advises her to do so.

662
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,880
And she's still hesitant to do so. Well, no shit, because she just killed a fucking child.

663
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:55,440
Yeah. Yeah. There are just details of this that it's like, listen, what it boils down to is that

664
00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:00,960
these people are extremists and they are sick in the head. Maybe that has nothing to do with their

665
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:06,960
religion and they would have done these horrible things to children, regardless. I don't know.

666
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:12,800
But it boils down to that this child was neglected and abused to death.

667
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:19,120
She came from a country where she had so little chance to survive and thrive,

668
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:28,320
particularly in this era. And she lived here, state side for less than a handful of years

669
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:36,640
and died horrifically, horrifically. She lived longer in the country where she came from.

670
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:44,400
The jury's verdict was guilty on the following counts. First degree, assault of

671
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:52,400
immanual manslaughter. This was of course in connection to Hana's death and additionally for

672
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:59,760
Carrie homicide by abuse. They were sentenced on October 29th, 2013,

673
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:09,280
Larry to almost 28 years and Carrie to almost 37. However, if you say it in months,

674
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,960
like some people do for their kids well beyond the age of infancy, it almost sounds better.

675
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:28,880
333 and 443, respectively. Wow. 333. That's been interesting. He double it in like, you know,

676
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:41,680
660. Oh, fuck. For reference, sentencing is frequently far less, roughly half of the sentences

677
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:47,280
that they received for similar crimes. So they actually kind of got nailed to the wall a little bit.

678
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:52,960
And I don't feel bad about it at all. Do you know if they like got out earlier? Some shit. Not to

679
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:59,440
my knowledge at this point. One judge was quoted as saying they likely still deserve more.

680
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:06,000
And frankly, I'm inclined to agree. I agree. Can we give more? Can we just tack a little bit more?

681
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:12,480
That would be great. And there is so much more, but you're going to have to get past the paywall,

682
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:17,360
my friends. Hey, Trion, looks like you may have some bonus content coming your way.

683
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:25,840
Because best believe I am so far from shutting the fuck up about this particular topic and this

684
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:33,520
particular case, there's a lot for my research that I still kind of want to get into and discuss,

685
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:44,400
but somebody's got to pay for my therapy after this. Patreon? This one really fucked me up a little bit.

686
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:51,440
I mean, it took me so much longer to get through each of the stages with this case. It really,

687
00:44:51,440 --> 00:45:00,320
yeah, none of them are, I mean, God, there's nothing I talk about. It's, you know, sunshine and rainbows.

688
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:07,040
But I must have been like feeling the Ick. Well, I guess I was probably feeling your Ick vibe because

689
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:14,320
you were sitting here writing it like, uh, sucks. Uh, yeah, but I didn't even like the fact that carry

690
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:20,000
a Larry rhyme. I didn't even like, oh, that's so cute. Normally, you would be like, oh, yeah,

691
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,120
but you just knew, I don't even, I didn't know that as far as you knew they could have been the victims.

692
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:30,320
Right. But you were like, I'm not getting that. I don't know. I don't remember. Maybe when we go back,

693
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:36,480
I'll listen to the recording. Maybe I will say, oh, but I don't think I was. I don't think so. I was

694
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:42,080
just picking up the vibe. No, because immediately I would have been like, oh, no, no, trust me. Not cute.

695
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:52,640
Yeah. No, not cute. All right. All right. I think we're going to go do the thing that we normally do

696
00:45:52,640 --> 00:46:00,480
that we talked about at the beginning. And also, we'll probably have some snacks. Snack break and

697
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:08,160
the next tarot. Indeed. They give her two middle names too. I really fucking hate that.

698
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:17,840
What was her middle names? Hannah Aleemoo was her birth name. And I don't know. I don't know if this

699
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:25,680
was ever changed like legally or if this is just tacked on. It really doesn't matter. Nobody calls

700
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:32,880
her this. Nobody ever will. Hana Grace-Rose. And they hyphenated Grace-Rose. Grace-Rose.

701
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:41,920
Huh. Interesting. I hate it. So they they referred to her as Hana Grace hyphen Rose Williams.

702
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:52,160
It's not what her headstone says. Thank God. Okay. Because there were people that cared enough to make

703
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:59,680
sure she had a proper burial. Good. And a real last headstone. Wow. I didn't really even think about

704
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:05,600
it. Oh, visit her being like a thing. But oh my gosh. I'm glad that someone did that. Yeah.

705
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:16,240
Is she buried in Washington? We're going to oh, trust. That's a big part of what I want to talk about

706
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:24,880
in in the extended. The people that made sure that she had a proper burial. It's not necessarily a

707
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:33,520
long, a long discussion. But I I feel like there are some some important details there. And I feel

708
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:41,680
like it it made me feel so much sadder but also kind of better. That makes sense. Because it's like

709
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:48,080
oh, you know, because they love her. And then I'm like, oh, but they love her. But all they

710
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:56,960
are right. Let's go do terrible. Okay. Okay. Don't lick the cards because that was weird.

711
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:04,000
Okay. We have the infamous snorter here. So if you hear pig sounds in the background that is the dog.

712
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:11,680
Yeah. And also the dog is here. Yeah. You are you are the infamous snorter too.

713
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:24,720
snorting already. I think we need a third mic. She's clearly got things to say.

714
00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:36,800
Kim and I do one more thinking about Hana. Ladies giving us all her energy.

715
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:44,720
Oh, she's jumping down. You wanted to be up here. You here with this whole fit. I know. She's like,

716
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:52,640
but it's boring. Yes, we're just doing tarot. I'm actively petting her by the way.

717
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:58,960
Lady, at least get up here and show me your cute face before you leave. Oh, look at you face.

718
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:07,040
I thought you wanted to do terror with us. You were even in a video. You were in a real.

719
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,880
We'll see you the chords. Okay. Bye.

720
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:23,760
Okay. That's like where I was going. Like, here is. Yeah. Or here is. Like in the middle of that ish.

721
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:34,000
Okay. Two of cards. Okay. That's interesting. It's such a positive card. I think so. It's like what

722
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:39,200
Carrie and Terry should have been. I feel like I've said that before. Larry. Oh, wait.

723
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:50,960
Who the fuck cares? Larry and Carrie, right? Larry and Carrie. Yeah. I feel like that's like what they

724
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:57,120
should have been. Like two loving bird parents who love all their adopted children. But

725
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:03,360
I mean, I don't even think I need to read it, but I guess I will. Yeah. It's just, it's too

726
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:12,480
positive. I mean, it is. And we drew it upright. I'm interested to see. Okay. Two of cups are keywords are

727
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:21,440
partnership, harmony, creative exchange and cooperation. Who cooperation? No, I don't, I don't

728
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:29,600
know about that word. Interesting in this context. I'll say that much. In many decks, the two of cups

729
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:38,320
shows a man and woman holding chalices as if toasting each other. The card represents joining forces

730
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:46,160
with someone either romantically or in a creative slash spiritual endeavor. It was spiritual too.

731
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:56,080
Well, in joining forces, honestly, that makes me think of at least in this application. I don't think

732
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:01,760
I ever would have thought of this being a connection, but you're joining together

733
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:09,040
families. You're joining these other and it was too adopted children. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

734
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:16,720
You share a common dream, interest or passion and can work together to bring it into being.

735
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:23,840
This next part might actually be physically painful to say. Mutual respect and equality exist

736
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:33,840
between you. Gonna beg to differ, but you know, and we'll move on. The upright too indicates a period

737
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:43,520
of harmony when things go smoothly between you and another person. I think of this as the honeymoon card.

738
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:54,560
Not in this case. Well, I think this feels representative of that honeymoon period. It's like six months

739
00:51:54,560 --> 00:52:03,280
where things, I mean, at least there was nothing that was representing as being sort of a red flag.

740
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:11,920
Right. She like gained the weight and was like a normal kid and then. It seemed like both kids were

741
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:20,240
beginning to adjust. I mean, it's all relative and nobody else was there in the home with

742
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:28,720
that family, but when you have high hopes and experience a time of accord, optimism,

743
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:37,040
inspiration and goodwill, interreading about money, the upright to suggest a financial

744
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:44,160
partnership or merging your resources with someone else's for mutual gain. It can also mean

745
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:52,080
financial support comes from a partner or a backer. It doesn't feel super applicable, but it does

746
00:52:52,080 --> 00:53:00,240
make me think of like, I think you said one of the kids got surrendered because of the disability.

747
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:08,640
So actually in this case, it's believed that both children that were adopted by the Williams

748
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:19,840
family were surrendered in no small part at least due to their medical condition. So one child

749
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:28,640
being deaf and in Hannah's case, my understanding is that she was happy positive.

750
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:34,720
Yeah, I think it just reminded me of our conversation like, well, did they were they just not able to

751
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:40,720
like afford to take care of it? So I don't know, that just reminded me of that kind of like

752
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:46,400
so much. So it's financial. Yeah, I mean, these days, how can anyone afford to raise a child

753
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:54,000
period? Right. Yeah. I mean, particularly with a child that might have any sort of special need.

754
00:53:54,000 --> 00:54:02,560
I don't know. It's incredible. If the reading is about your job, this card describes a partnership

755
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:13,040
that benefits both people. Do you think this ties into the authors of to train a child? I think

756
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:23,200
this ties into the Pearl family. That's the vibe I'm picking up. And we have to record

757
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:31,840
this for bonus for the Patreon because there's just a lot of stuff that I feel like really provides

758
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:39,680
context that I didn't want to take the focus away from this particular family and this case

759
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:49,360
and Hannah in particular, but my God. So bullet point number two, you inspire one another and enjoy

760
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:57,040
working together. It can also represent cooperation and creative collaboration in your workplace.

761
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:05,760
In a reading about love, the two upright symbolizes a happy relationship that's developing smoothly.

762
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:12,320
You understand each other's needs and bring out the best in one another. This card shows

763
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:20,880
harmony, balance and mutual respect between two parties. I feel like this is all a lot of this

764
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:30,160
in the back half here is very representative of the Pearl family. Interesting. There's a lot of

765
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:39,680
really interesting material. I should probably stop there. Okay. To be honest, I didn't really anticipate

766
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:46,880
and I didn't want that to be such a major focus of this, but I feel like at the same time,

767
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:56,080
sort of what I've been getting at is that people that sort of propagate these beliefs and

768
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:01,840
like the practices that go along with them. It's like, I don't know, I have a hard time saying that

769
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:09,840
you're blameless in situations like this where I mean, this is on the best day. I think a lot of

770
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:18,720
the things that people abiding by these teachings, a lot of what they would be doing on the very best day.

771
00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:26,080
You'd have a hard time selling that that's healthy, that's natural, that's legal. Yeah.

772
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:33,440
But in these cases, it's really hard to say that those people have remained blameless.

773
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:42,640
Yeah. I'm not saying that it's anyone's fault, but the Williams, right. But also at the same time,

774
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:49,200
there's co-evality. Right. How did you end up there? And what they were doing with the children.

775
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:59,920
So, yeah, I just, I mean, you can't hold those, you can't hold the pearls or anyone else responsible

776
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:08,800
for the crime aside from carrying Larry Williams. But I do think ultimately, when you find that

777
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:14,880
there are certain ideologies that are truly irresponsible or that lead to harm,

778
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:22,400
there has to be a way to adjust for that. I don't know what that is. I don't have all the answers, but

779
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:30,880
you don't. What are we with this podcast? Boy, if I did, though. I'm just saying, you know,

780
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:42,480
that's ugly. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a parent she should have had the one she deserved.

781
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:50,320
I mean, she had two parents who were led by two parents who wrote an awful book about,

782
00:57:50,320 --> 00:58:01,120
but any two parents out there should reportedly be doing raising children. She was adopted as part of a pair.

783
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:08,400
They are violet green swallows, which you can see on them. They are purple and green.

784
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:14,640
Okay. I'm going to read this from the little book. It's the little poem. I don't know what you call it.

785
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:21,520
It's a poem? No. What's the, oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

786
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:26,880
Well, we're googling. Yeah. No, this is going to bother me. Get the Google machine out.

787
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:34,000
Allegory. Allegory. Yeah. Like all of these definitions are written like an allegory. It's okay.

788
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:42,480
A story poem or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political

789
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:50,640
one. So it's a poem. You said poem in your description there, but they're not really strictly speaking

790
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:57,440
poem, right? But I wasn't wrong. I'm going to award you half a point. Okay. I'm going to read these,

791
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:03,760
these allegory, the swallows paths crossed and everything changed for both of them.

792
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:11,360
Had the wind not carried her a little farther than she had planned to go or had yesterday's storm,

793
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:19,680
not forced him to land early, they would never have encountered one another. Oh my god. A child

794
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:27,680
born in Ethiopia dies in Cedra, Wolley. That is true. Like everything has to align for you to get

795
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:36,880
to this one specific area. Yeah. In this case, like, in not a good way. Had he not twittered loudly

796
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:43,360
as he sun bathed, they would never have collected grass or twigs or feathers together. Had she not

797
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:49,120
swooped past at precisely the right moment to catch his showy display, they would not later

798
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:56,240
shape their collection into a cup in that hollow fur. Had her first return display to him,

799
00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:03,280
not complemented the choreography of his own, they would never have bonded or laid eggs or incubated

800
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:10,960
them or hunted for insects to feed their brood. These birds are feeding their brood. Yeah. But all

801
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:17,840
those things conspired to occur, whether through chance, serendipity or fate, their past and just

802
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:25,520
cross, they converged. Same with like that couple who everything had to work out for them to get together

803
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:33,840
to have all of these kids to I cannot believe this. Just that specific word choice. Converged.

804
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:44,560
I don't think the tab is still open, but oh, I'm glad I read that then. I'm looking just to see. I

805
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:50,640
don't think I left it open. I was like, I don't need this anymore. I know I closed it. At some point

806
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:56,480
during this, it's just weird. I don't know. It's kind of one of those things where just like a word

807
01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:04,400
hits you a certain way. At some point, I don't even know that it was related to the case specifically, but I

808
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:14,240
was looking up the term insufficient convergency. Oh, what does that mean?

809
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:25,600
You're like, I don't know. I'm looking it up. Honestly, I feel like I'm not. That's not a word like,

810
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:31,520
it's a word people use, obviously, but not really one that's like used in everyday language, you know?

811
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:40,880
Oh, okay. Actually, this is going to explain a lot. It's insufficient convergence, not

812
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:49,200
convergency, but in my defense, when I was researching this, I may or may not have had a head injury.

813
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:59,120
It has to do with the visual disturbance that when I was describing to the Google machine,

814
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:05,120
what I was experiencing, it was like, do you mean? And I was like, perhaps tell me more.

815
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:13,280
So it wasn't about the case or anything else. I mean, they coincided. Oh, yeah.

816
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:20,800
Yeah. I had tabs for both open in the same browser. They were converged.

817
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:28,640
They sure converge. It does like, that word, though. It's weird.

818
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:33,360
It is weird. It's one of those things that makes you think you're on the right path.

819
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:38,160
Yeah, just sort of, I don't know, it's synchronicity.

820
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:43,200
So happened to me the other day and I wrote it down just because I didn't think it was a huge deal,

821
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:47,360
but now maybe I'll say what it was because I don't think I ever plan to say it.

822
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:52,720
Oh, really? I think I even wrote it in my grocery time. I literally wrote it down in my groceries tab,

823
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:57,040
because I was like, I'm just going to write this down real quick. I'm not even going to

824
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,960
bother open a new note pad for this. Just for that. Oh, come on.

825
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:06,720
And because I was like, I'll probably just delete this. But it was interesting. So I had sent a text

826
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:14,800
in the sound like glitched. Like, you know, when it goes, it went like, but it was like glitchy.

827
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:20,640
And I was like, Oh, that's weird. I have like, so I turned on a new pot. This was like, I don't know.

828
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,080
I don't think it was directly after this happened, but it was like somewhere within

829
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:30,960
10 minutes of this like glitch itself. It was like, you know, I was going to say like a few days.

830
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:35,200
It was like, no, it's like the next thing I remember doing or whatever I turned on a podcast.

831
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:38,880
Oh, and I like, you know, I skipped past the, you know, the ad.

832
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:43,840
Yeah. Don't do that with our show because of what you want us to make money, you know?

833
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,120
Yes, it was a podcast that makes a lot of money. I was making so much money.

834
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,440
Yeah. Other podcasts, they make so much money.

835
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:53,680
Listen to the yeah. So anyway, I was skipping the ads and I went,

836
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:59,280
skip, skip, skip, and all of a sudden the, the host of it just says glitchy. And I was like,

837
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,840
that was weird. Like who just weird? Because I like was in the middle of her sentence.

838
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:07,040
And she just went glitchy. And that was the first word that I had like,

839
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:12,320
stop the skip on. And I was like, Oh, that's weird. Because I just had like a weird glitch thing happen.

840
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:18,160
But so as I was like typing this out though, and like the boop boop boop boop sounds were glitching.

841
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:25,360
Not so it was just like three glitchy things in a row. Oh, that's freaky. And my phone has never

842
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:29,280
made like this glitchy sound. I'm sure it was like an update thing or whatever. I don't know what it was.

843
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:35,280
Oh, it's gotta be right. I'm sure. But like three like glitchy glitch go to glitch. Yeah.

844
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:41,440
I mean, just say glitch three times. It was weird. Anyway, that's all weird.

845
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,880
Remind me of that thing that I never thought I would tell anyone. I thought I was just going to

846
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:51,200
bleed off my grocery list. But it just made me think, you know, just makes me think we're on the right.

847
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:57,120
Yeah. Things like a lie enough like that. Yeah, it's just weird. Well, I told you,

848
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:05,040
I, something had already come up for me that I was thinking about Little House on the Prairie.

849
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:12,000
And then I, I came across that Hannah was reading Little House on the Prairie. And um,

850
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:23,760
there was an adolescent inside of me. Oh, they just, I mean, that, that got me, that got me.

851
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:33,600
And listen, I, uh, I'm not going to say that those books hold up in, uh, the year of our Lord 2025.

852
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:42,480
Um, I'm not even sure when I read them that they weren't already probably super duper problematic.

853
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:49,040
I mean, listen, they never were not problematic. It's just, uh, whether or not you were paying attention.

854
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:53,520
Right. I think you have good memories with them. It doesn't like make it the fact that you

855
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:59,280
would go to memories associated with it. Yeah. I think that's fair. But I mean, I did too.

856
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:09,040
I know. Oh, I do. If anyone just deserves to have, you know, some small piece of joy in

857
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:19,280
anything. Oh my god. So I am wearing the world's tiniest cross today. But if it's should we do the

858
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:26,160
thing? Yeah, let's do the thing. I think so. It's probably time for some French onion dip.

859
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:31,600
I do. Yeah. Let's do that in our white cloths for true leaves or whatever the fuck.

860
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:37,440
Bubbly waters. She would like to consume more bookies.

861
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,440
Oh, I got some right here. What am I talking about? I literally have one.

862
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:46,720
Is she keeps forgetting that her glasses actually on this conveniently located table?

863
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:55,120
That's where glasses go. You can easily access them. Correct. That, uh, typically, typically. Yeah.

864
01:06:55,120 --> 01:07:01,120
That for just me to be with them arms. Reach. Yeah. It's true. Even these little t-mails.

865
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:09,600
Okay. Have a creepy ass day. We'll see you next Tuesday.

866
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:15,040
And we may be coming to you from Who Knows Where? Who Knows God Knows Where?

867
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:26,320
What do you think this is a catwalk? I do my little turn on the catwalk.

868
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:36,080
Oh, the catwalk. It's a dogwalk. Lady. Come at the lights. Oh my god. Okay. Let's do this terror.

869
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:42,240
I'm gonna show you. It's a terror sound. Our entire studio. We're getting relished. Yeah. Pnwhauntandhomicides.com