The Wisdom Light Murder: Unraveling the Oak Grove Jane Doe

0:00 Anna was arrested after the incident, but she was not to be easily silenced, which is so annoying these hysterical women. "Oh, keep your mouth shut." "Mmm, far from it, she sued for alienation of affections." "Whew, wow." The scandal rocked the Portland area, particularly when Anna won her case. "Hi, Cassie." "Hi, Caitlyn."

0:40 "Hi, creepy people." "Hello!" "Hello!" "This is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal, and all things spooky in the Pacific Northwest. The PNW. "If you're nasty." "Which we assume you are, because here you are, because we are." "Yeah, there you go. You're here. That's that." "We also do a terror reading at the end of every episode for just a little bit of deeper insight into whatever we're talking about for that day, and have a little fun. What do we call it? Why am I blanking all of a sudden immediately when we start?

1:24 "I don't know." “A palette cleanser." "Oh, yes. I have no idea." Even though we end up talking about whatever was in the case, I still feel like it's a little bit of a happy ending for something that might not have such a happy ending. Want to kill in the episodes? "Oh, yeah, because all of yours are so happy. The lampras are happy. They're wide teeth grin. Is that a thing? Wide teeth grin? That's not a thing." "There's no other way to describe it." Wide teeth. Yeah. They're wide toothy grin. "Yeah, me, that's what I was thinking. Toothy." "Toothy." "It is toothy, which is not okay."

2:06 "I'm going to bring it up every episode from now until the end of time." "Okay, great. I can't stop talking about it." "Love that for us." "Oh boy." "Okay." "All right, I'll shut up." "Well, I feel like you were talking about in the tarot portion of that episode about how, you know, we're just going to try to keep it like sort of Christmassy and maybe lighter. And that's a lie because..." "Someone didn't get the memo." "Yeah." "Okay, not much of a sagoo into this, but..." "I can keep stalling if you want me to." "No, I think it's better. We just ripped the bandaid.

2:46 Okay. All right. "All right, our case today is as I have foretold, it's not bright and cheery." "I'm from Brittany." "I need to kind of go with Christmas. I mean, not everything is light and cherry for everybody, obviously. So..." "Yeah. And see, that's what I was trying to do with this here." "I've seen a balance, new to represent all facets of life." "You know?" "This is definitely a facet of life, so here we go." In Oak Grove, Oregon, a suburb of Portland, so named for the many oak trees in the area.

3:30 "Oh, yes." Something very unusual started happening in 1946. "That was a long time ago." "Yeah. Remember how we sort of talked about that like World War II is my Roman Empire?" "Yeah." "Yeah." "I think maybe that was just kind of rolling around in the back of my brain space because 1946 is like the year after the war officially ended." "Alaska wasn't even a state, yeah." "That's true." "Yeah, we just learned that again. Body parts began surfacing over a series of months." "Where's your mug that says that'll escalated it quickly?"

4:12 "That escalated quickly." "Yeah." "Oh." "It's pretty on brand for today." "It really is." "Yeah." "Thanks, Andrea." "Yeah, thank you." The first of which was found near the wisdom light mortgage on April 12 in a whirling eddie. A group of people stumbled upon the torso of a white female as they walked along the shoreline of the Willamette. "What's a whirling neddie?" "whirling eddie." "Yeah, that's what I meant." "I think I have a little bit of a section in my notes to kind of cover that." "Like I want to think about that and not the other thing that you said that's fair."

4:52 "Yeah, that's fair." "Just a torso is terrifying." "Yeah." "It's all terrifying, but." "It's pretty." "Yeah, I'd like to tell you that it gets better." "I'm gonna give so much work." "It reminds me of the movie 13 Ghosts because there's a ghost and that one that's like called the torso and it's like just a woman's torso like wrapped in plastic." "Oh." "Okay." "Well." "It's like a walking terrifying." "Yeah, that sounds terrible. That's also interesting that you made that connection." "Oh, okay." "I'll just get into it and then you'll see." "Okay." "It was wrapped in burlap feedbacks and it was clear it had been weighted down by window sash weights that had been attached to the package."

5:36 "Window sash weights." "Mm-hmm." "Okay." "Yeah, I'm not gonna really get into that." "But I can kind of just all-timey figure out what that means." "Yeah." "It's interesting, interesting choice." "Yeah, it is a choice. There's a lot of choice choices." "Yeah." "There were multiple articles of women's clothing found at the same time." Because of the location of the initial discovery, this case is sometimes referred to as the "Wisdom Light Murder." "Well, wisdom light sounds good." "Yeah, it does. Yeah." "The next day, two arms and a thigh were discovered."

6:16 "Sorry." "Okay." "They were also wrapped in a similar manner." This was confusing to make sense of in my research and I couldn't figure out why the reporting about the second set of remains felt a little bit murky, but it's because initially the limbs that had surfaced were misidentified. So I kept reading articles that described various limbs being found in the second discovery. Some of them would say it was like two arms and a thigh. Some of them would say other limb, various combinations. Anyway, all of that is to say that initially the reporting was not completely accurate.

7:01 "Okay." "I suppose depending on how the body is dismembered, it makes sense that it might require further examination to accurately determine the parts of the body." Because it's like, it's just a section and without more context. Like an arm maybe could look like a leg or vice versa. "We're like, yeah, thigh, just a thigh." "Yeah." "Yeah." "I know." "The additional body parts were recovered about six miles away from the area where the initial discovery of the torso was." This time it was a group of five men out on a tugboat that provided a tip that led to the discovery.

7:47 "Okay." "It is wild to me to see their full legal names imprint, along with actually many others who made the horrifying discoveries in the case. I just feel like these days, I think oftentimes people tend to be a bit more cautious about being tied to a story like this. Even if they've, of course, done nothing wrong, it's just like putting your name out there in connection with something that's like in the news. I just think like, I mean, that can draw people to you that you maybe don't want drawn to you. But they literally printed like the full names of like all of these different people associated with the case.

8:29 "Wow." In terms of the discovery, I should say. I feel like now, too, you never know, like what kind of conspiracy theory of some podcaster is going to come up with to like try to tie you to the code. Exactly. Yeah. Just putting your name out there in relation to a true crime story can bring so much undue scrutiny upon literally anyone. So that was kind of wild. There was like the old timeliness of it all. Apparently they had seen the package about 30 days prior initially. It wasn't until they heard about the torso being recovered nearby by some fisherman that they decided to reach out to authorities.

9:15 So they saw this package that would later be recovered and was determined to be human remains and they didn't make the connection that like this is something we should look into or like have like reported to the authorities until somebody else found that initial set of remains. Oh, I know. Did they just leave it there? Yeah, I mean, they just were like, oh, it's just basically, you know, trash or, you know, something that's been tossed. Oh, I thought it was a package. Of some sort. Yeah. I know. Isn't that? That just is so oaky. Yeah. Like what's in the box? What's in the exactly?

9:55 Oh, my God. In an article published by the Oregon Statesman on April 14, 1946, it was said that the sheriff intended to begin dragging the river. He had apparently indicated some level of frustration already in the case saying, we're kind of stymied. So notably, he also shared that the hands had been removed from the arms. Oh, so I think that's a detail that could have also led to some of the confusion about what parts of the victim exactly had been recovered. Yeah. Because again, like if there's not like a foot or a hand, you know what I mean?

10:36 It's like as a layman and probably someone who's not like, you know, if you discover this, you're not like inspecting the shit. Yeah. To see what it is. Yeah. Exactly. You're just like, oh my God, that's part of a human body and like trying to do everything you can to put that probably out of your mind. Yeah. So I think that's maybe part of it. By July of 1946, a second lie was found. This time closer to Oregon City. Well clothing items were also found in the Clackamas River that were believed may have belonged to the Jane Doe slowly emerging piece by piece, which is both literal and sort of obviously it's a curative.

11:27 Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, for anyone that's not local and I feel like this is something that could be confusing like the Clackamas and the Willamette are two separate bodies of water. So it might seem like why would they connect to these? That's what I was thinking. Yeah. But they do technically have a place where they intersect and where like things could kind of float from one to the other. Okay. Given kind of like weather patterns and like the flow of water, it did sort of help them to determine like, oh, this kind of the pathway. I just, it's so, I don't know, it really freaks me out to think about that.

12:09 That's just something that's like in this body of water where obviously people are discovering these things like just out on a morning walk or like out on their fishing boat like. It's still interesting though that they just, they connected just clothing back to the other remains. It's like how many pieces of clothing are like in all of the rivers, you know? Yeah. Well, and I would think probably at any given time there's, you know, if you're finding part of like a shirt like that's wrapping up like one of the pieces of remains and then what appears to be like maybe the other half of the shirt.

12:52 That sort of thing. Also, I would think in 1946. Really a lot less things just like popping up out of the river in general. A lot less pollution. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, just speaking super broadly, like just really over generalizing here, but October 1946. Finally, the victim's head was recovered. No, I mean, I'm glad it was recovered. Found near the bank of the Willamette by Mr. and Mrs. Roy Clutter of Oak Grove reportedly without the deceased's eyes.

13:33 I mean, you have to think about though, like the initial discovery dates back like several months. Yeah. So even water still is it still found in water? We're going to get to that. It was found near the bank of the Willamette, but we're going to get to because it is really interesting. You would expect some of these remains to have had like different levels of sort of decomposition or deterioration. Yeah. So that also is something else that like kind of informs us about like what are the conditions of how this body is being disposed of and you know, what maybe what else does that tell us about the case?

14:15 Fortunately, or unfortunately. I have my notes, which is only about the most ghoulish and sinister way I could imagine making the discovery to be honest. Yeah. Holds true. It appeared to be wrapped in pieces of a tan shirt and had also been weighed down by window sash weights. So somebody's window sash is just out there blowing in the wind. Yeah. I mean, if the indoors is windy, I don't know. Sashes are on the inside, right? I presume so. Yes. And this is like presumably like the same body parts because they're found in the same manner, right?

14:57 Like they just automatically know that it's connected. I think it's tricky because without obviously they're not able to identify, you know, by DNA that this is the same person. I think it goes back to sort of the old timeliness of it all that we don't have like in 1946. Presumably, we don't have multiple dismembered bodies that are popping up in the Willamette. I think it's a fair question, depending on the city and that period of time.

15:38 I would think like clearly the same person did it not necessarily that it, I mean, it could be a different person's body parts. I do think that's, I think that's fair. I, I would argue that probably because we are not finding the complete body of anyone, victim or victims, I think it's reasonable enough for them to have assumed that probably this is the same victim, but I do think that is also, it's indicative of the time where nobody understood the concept or was familiar with the term like serial killer.

16:23 Right. So I think that's a really good point. I didn't really directly address that in my notes because I think so much of the kind of conversation around this case is just based on the assumption that yes, it's all the same body, but I think that's actually, I mean, it's valid to kind of question that. Yeah. I thought so. Yeah. I mean, no, it's, it's fair. I think coming at it from a totally different lens in a modern day, like those are the types of things that it's like you have to kind of consider. I don't know the will ever know. Oh, the head was also found in close proximity to where the torso had been located roughly six miles away from the surely now infamous whirling Eddie.

17:18 It's basically just kind of a weird current of water that it looks like a little like underwater cyclone a little bit. Okay. Yeah. That's all it is. I like that. Yeah. It's cute, but sweet. Yeah. Yeah. In a different context, you know, maybe kind of whimsical, but, you know, I did try looking to see if there's like a particular spot where we could like triangulate like, oh, where is this? You know, like is this whirling Eddie like is that something that like is it special? Right. Is that is that a constant? Does that change? Like, where is it? Can I go visit it?

17:59 I didn't have a lot of success there. Isn't there some sort of something in the water that like swirls and like goes down and they don't like know where it goes to? I'm probably not asking the right person. I don't know. Oh, yeah. I think it's some sort of like something somewhere. I'll look into it. Okay. Maybe report that. Y'all report back to you guys. Oh my God. The head also revealed some more identifying features of the Jane Doe. The deceased had an upper denture, but still had her mendicular or lower jaw, which told investigators a little bit more about her background. So the lower jaw where she still had her, you know, natural dentition, there was a not an insignificant amount of other dental work.

18:49 So this is someone who's had like a lot of dental work. Okay. Upper denture, she has dental work that's been done in the lower jaw. In certain time periods and geographic areas, this of course can be like a really, it's kind of low hanging fruit. It's an indicator of the decedent socio economic status. Let's go say them of that money. Right. That's sort of the implication. Mainly that they were able to afford dental work, which certainly was far less common at this point in history. And you know, keep in mind that 1946 is roughly 80 years ago, dental technology and education along with social programs have come like a very long way.

19:36 Thankfully. So now to find somebody who has dental work in their mouth may not be like, ah, the, you know, the smoking gun, as it were. But at that point, it's like not everybody can afford to have dental work done. Right. But now, I mean, yeah, very much so. But just in terms of like the, you know, the particular type of treatment and things like that can be very informative to investigators. The corner believed she may have been dismembered with a saw, a gruesome and grueling task. It was noted it was a pretty neat job, if not exactly expert or overly precise.

20:19 Okay. So basically our take away sort of in that respect is that this is somebody, somebody who's not necessarily like, you know, a surgeon, like a butcher could be. Yeah, could be. I would think a butcher probably would be more precise, but a butcher also isn't necessarily doing what he's doing for a specific aesthetic. Right. So it's hard to say. And again, it's one of those details that it's like it's slowly helping them to kind of form opinions or, you know, figure out like what's the profile of this person potentially?

21:03 It was determined after her head was recovered that her cause of death was blunt force trauma. Hmm. Initially the corner thought the Jane Doe may have been in her teens or early 20s. However, the estimate was later amended stating that it was believed the victim's age to be closer to middle age somewhere in her 40s or 50s. Right. She had like a full denture. Yeah. So you can see where like certain parts of the body really do help. Just to kind of get a clearer picture of who the victim was. It's like you're getting more information about the victim and her potential killer kind of at the same time.

21:44 The body was believed to have been in the water for 36 hours, which is interesting. Interesting because it is a little bit murky in terms of like, okay, which parts of the body are we talking about? They're all discovered at different points of time. Right. So there is a lot of, I feel like sort of conversation around, does that mean these parts were being released like one at a time? Oh. I don't feel like I have enough information to really be able to say like concretely.

22:26 It seems reasonable to assume that, you know, if they're being discovered months apart, probably they're not all being released at the same time, but it's, I'm certainly not going to say one way or the other conclusively. Yeah. I'll say that. Because like if it's been in for 36 hours, versus months, that's going to be, yeah. But I mean, also, I think a lot of determinations would be difficult to make with only individual pieces of the body being discovered over a series of months. I mean, particularly with the limitations of forensic science at the time.

23:08 So I feel a little bit skeptical about some of those things like the 36 hour time window in particular, because I'm like, I just don't know that I agree or can feel confident that they can really back that. They can back that and say like that's accurate. And we know this based on XYZ, if that makes sense. It would be interesting to, if they were found like 36 hours after being like disposed of, he would have to, or I say, he, the person he is doing the disposing, which is probably a man and probably not a bear, would have to say.

23:50 It's like does he want them to be found? Because if you're trying to hide a body, the likelihood of it being found 36 hours later. Yeah, I mean, if you're releasing them into a river and presumably they're weighed down as well. Yeah, I don't know. I would be really interested to hear sort of a more modern take on like the psychology behind, you know, maybe what they believe the killer's motives or like what their method was, what they were thinking. It's so hard to say. I know. It's so hard to say. It only gets harder.

24:30 Following the autopsy performed by Dr. Warren C. Hunter, which, that name, perfect. The late growth, Jane Doe, it was believed had been roughly 5, 2 to 5, 4, 140 to 150 pounds with graying brown hair, which is another interesting sort of aspect of the case. Most of these were, the remains were recovered in various states of, yeah, I think you can imagine. It's not great. So people did wonder how do we know the specificity of the hair color, the hair color and that it's graying, but it's believed that there was probably some hair in the bundle.

25:15 I'll leave it at that. We don't have to get too gruesome. He was a pathologist himself, but this next bit it seems to have come from another specialist examination. In any case, it was also reportedly believed that a torch may have been used on her in some form of torture, though it's not exactly clear from the available source materials, how that conclusion was drawn exactly. And it doesn't really appear in many of the news stories from the time that I could find. So it's something that I came across in all of the different things that I read and listened to and something that was reported on and that supposedly that was one of the conclusions that he drew, no real explanation that I could find as to why.

26:11 So that's sort of mystifying. How would they know why? No, I'm saying why do they think that? Oh, okay. I was like, yeah, how would they know why he did that? They don't know who did it. Yeah, yeah. I see. No, that's disturbing. It's pretty awful. Yeah. And we've heard about that in other cases that are just equally brutal. So from a Medford Mail Tribune article dated April 14, 1946, one crank was arrested in a pay booth as he telephoned police that he knew all about the mystery.

26:51 But state police said he was merely seeking publicity. And I only included this just so that I could point out that people have apparently always and probably always will be gross. Yes. What the fuck is a crank? I think they were, it's like a term of the era kind of referring to someone who's like Christmas with the cranks. Yeah, just like that. Christmas. Yeah. Okay, we're done. Bye. Okay. In 2004, the case was reopened, but it's very much considered ice cold at this point. In the year since the Oak Grove Jane Doe was discovered, evidence in this case has also been lost, making it even more difficult to continue to investigate.

27:40 In the 40s? Yeah, the 40s of it all. According to authorities, it's unknown what's happened to the victims clothing, the sash weights, that weighted the body down, or what happened to her remains. No. Oh, I know things happen, especially with records that are this dated, but how exactly does one lose a jawbone and maxillary denture asking for a friend? Well, and all the other pieces. Yeah. Yeah. Like she hasn't been there enough that you can't even just like keep the body that you have together.

28:22 Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I don't know what's better having her sit in a police station drawer or I mean, it's not just a drawer, but yeah, asking for a friend. I guess we'll call her Jane. It has a much nicer ring than case numbers, four, six, dash, two, two, six, oh three, and six, eight, dash, eight, oh seven, seven. There are a number of cases that people have speculated over the years might be related or might in fact be the Lake Grove Jane Doe. There's actually several that I'm not even going to go into.

29:03 There are a number of other conspiracy theories out there. I just think, well, I'm just going to get into it. And I'll let you figure out why I think this one is worth talking about. I want a full conspiracy report on Patreon. Okay. Perhaps she was the victim of an unknown serial killer. It would be like one of the first, right? I, well, not really. Not really. They just didn't know the term. Jack the Ripper. Oh yeah. You know, yeah. I didn't dig terribly deep on this one because it seems like it's not the most popular theory and I have to imagine that's for good reason.

29:45 Also, I found another that true or not is a far more intriguing avenue to explore. So let's talk about Anna. Okay. Anna Schrader, a Portland woman that worked as a police informant while also carrying on an affair with a married police officer. Oh shit. Oh shit is correct. William Brooening went missing in 1946. Historical rumor has it that when he tried to call off the affair after tiring Ivana, hounding him to leave his wife, there was a physical altercation where a gun was involved.

30:28 Who had the gun? In any case, Anna walked away from their violent encounter with a couple of broken ribs. And while that might be enough to make you suspicious, it's this next part that really makes you think there may have been more than one person who would wish her to come to harm. Anna was arrested after the incident, but she was not to be easily silenced, which is so annoying these hysterical women. Oh, keep your mouth shut. After a while, she was in a state of fear.

31:11 She was in a state of fear. She was in a state of fear. She was in a state of fear. She was in a state of fear. But that's what I did done read, or she also fucking the judge. I don't think so. What's more, she had a little black book at the time that contained information she had gathered in the several years she'd worked with the police. Shit, dude. She knew too much.

31:51 One from inside law enforcement had been feeding her information as well. Leon Jenkins was police chief from 1919 to 1933. When Harry Niles, his successor fell ill in 1946, Jenkins came out of retirement to become chief again for more than a year. Okay. I need to pull up. I have a picture I'd like to show you. Okay. Cassie, take a look at him pictured here celebrating his birthday with a slice of blackberry pie. Oh, I was like, is that a chicken wing? Yeah.

32:32 I thought we could use the levity at this point. Who eats pie with their hands? I don't know. It's a weird one. Where is your fork, sir? Sir. You're in a suit. Sir. You're in with your hands. He got, he got berries all over them fingers, man. I'm zooming in. Honestly, it looks like it's kind of all over his face too. I thought so too, but I was like, I don't know if that's just like a skin condition or no idea. Yeah, it's interesting. It looks like he, it's maybe like the last bite and he picked it up just by like the crust end. I don't know. For the picture, I don't know either, but yeah. Anyways, it looks very happy with his pie.

33:13 He sure does. A holiday theme too. Yeah. Look at you. It's been positive that his return may have stoked her desire to release her little black book, even well after a decade passed. You go, girl. You can go, girl. I mean, but maybe don't. Oh, look, so be careful though. She had respected Leon Jenkins during his tenure as she'd worked alongside law enforcement. But then he sided with his fellow officers in the department during the trial. No surprise here, but she reportedly felt it a pretty major betrayal. Although seriously, how did she win that lawsuit?

33:54 Yeah, that's crazy. I really, I really want to know. I feel like she had something on the judge like not really that she was like fucking him, but maybe she had him in her little black book. She had something on everybody. Yeah, but that's the only way that that makes sense. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it might be interesting for me to look a little bit deeper into like the legal context during the time. I don't know what at least know. I maybe I don't know. Yeah, we might have to ask her like any idea how that works. Yeah, because I feel like alienation of affections is usually something that like the legal spouse. Right.

34:34 I just I can't wrap my brain around it. But local true crime authors JD Chandler, Joshua Fisher and Teresa Griffin Kennedy speculate in hindsight. That sparked her anger and she may have decided she was going to leave Portland and go to Minnesota and maybe mail the black book back to the Oregonian and finally keep her word and expose the corruption in the Portland police bureau. Oh my god. Black book back. I don't know how I made it through that black book bad bitch. Yes. Oh, still it is only a tenuous theory without very much to substantiate it.

35:18 Although I do find the fact that someone ran an ad in the Oregonian searching for a missing person named Anne Schrader, a little bizarre, especially since our Anna Schrader, apparently sometimes went by Anne. Oh. If you see her, she'll be holding a little black book and we really, really want that little black book. We really need to find that black book. In fact, on her 63rd birthday, April 5, 1946, a small ad appeared in the classified section of the Oregonian, the ten word ad reading. Anyone knowing whereabouts of Anne Schrader, please write Y502 Oregonian.

36:04 It ran three times in total over the course of three weeks. There is no record of who placed the strange ad, nor a record of any responses it may have received. Of course not. Of course not. The 1946 up at all. While that's certainly odd, it's the fact that there is no record that the police ever investigated her disappearance. That really gets me. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. They're like, we actually prefer her missing. Yeah. Exactly. Are they really going to try to find this person who has all this dirt on them? No. It's either they had something to do with it or they just don't want her found in general.

36:48 A thousand percent. Also two things can be true. They can be involved and then also just we don't want to find her. Or maybe she just escaped to Minnesota and is gone. We're running it to that. In the case of someone like Anna Schrader with numerous wealthy and influential friends, it seems likely that a missing person's report would have been filed. Anna had ties to a fair few police officers with the PPP, some of whom were still serving the city at the time. But the Slabtown Chronicle has a post that sums it up nicely. So I'm going to read this quote. Corruption and rivalries defused the proper focus of the police bureau and the new chief Leon Jenkins had far more reason to celebrate the disappearance of his least favorite Portlander than get to the bottom of it.

37:43 As a result, Schrader who hadn't received significant public attention in more than a decade simply faded away. Her disappearance unnoticed, uninvestigated and forgotten. That's crazy. Wow. There are no death records for Anna. If she really had moved and one was searching for a death certificate in this jurisdiction rather than looking to the Midwest, maybe that could explain the dead end. But as far as I know and could find, there's also nothing documenting her move officially so far as I could find.

38:30 I bet it though it would be pretty easy for her to just change her name, move and change her name in the four years. Possibly. Possibly. It's just vague illusions to her going missing at best, which the historical time period may be responsible for. Remember, the remains of our jane doe also were missing. So, you know, not that hard for something to go missing. But if she did move to Minnesota as the story goes, it seems likely there would have been documentation of some kind, like property, employment possibly or other records to serve as a paper trail of some sort, right?

39:13 Ultimately, it's unlikely that anyone would be able to prove whether she did or didn't move conclusively. Just like it would be difficult at this point to definitively identify the oak grove jane doe at this point without so much as partial dental records to use as a comparison. We don't have nothing. We don't have any of the records or any. It's like all gone. Yeah. It's all gone. I could see like a piece. I don't think there's anything. But like, what the fuck? I think it speaks to, and here's the thing is like I hate to just hang my hat on a conspiracy theory, but who better to make a few records go missing than the police who hate the potential victim, right?

40:10 Yeah, they don't ever want it. I don't know, like when did they go missing? Is that even a thing you could figure out? I didn't find anything that definitively stated like, hey, by 1970, the records were gone. Hard to say. They might have been missing like before 1947, even though, you know, who knows? I don't have a lot of good information about that. Here's the thing is if it went missing just organically, there probably wouldn't be a good way to document that. Oh, I'm so scared. I'm just asking that. And if you tossed the records, of course, you're not going to document that.

40:53 Like, hey, through these away, I'm this dude. You're welcome. Hey, so you just made these go missing. But that's where we leave off. We might just have to discuss some of the other theories that emerged in a little Patreon mini soda. That's what I requested. And it's what you requested. Were you going to do that before I requested it? I did. It did my notes. I wasn't sure. But now that you've requested it, I'm like, oh, probably do it. Oh, thanks. Yeah. You can request something of me and I will gladly do it for you. Believe me. But for now, should we move on to something a little bit lighter?

41:34 Maybe some tarot? I think so. Let's do some tarot. Let's get this palette cleansed. Get it clean. It's just sad. It was very sad. [MAGIC WAND] [SHUFFLING] Caitlyn's picking a card. She's feeling it out. Oh. Oh, it looks intense. Oh, we just got that one. A ten of-- Yeah. We did in the Barefoot Bandit episode because I just did the bonus and we talked about the card again. You got to enreverse this time. Wow. OK.

42:14 Ten of swords. It's interesting. The first thing I'm seeing is like a body, a skull with no eyes. Yeah. And then the rest of its body is behind it. Obviously, it's not been like chopped up or something. But it's still interesting to see. Already in our keywords though, I'm seeing some terms that maybe you have a linkage. OK. So keywords are exhaustion, giving up, betrayal, pain and sadness. In many decks, the ten of swords depicts a man lying on the ground with ten swords stuck in his back.

42:59 Ouch. Tens represent the end of a cycle and the start of a new one. Therefore this card symbolizes an end to the suffering and sadness you've endured. Just in time for you probably couldn't stand much more. It's interesting because you were talking that it was potentially-- they were potentially tortured. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. A really good point. The reverse interpretation says, "The ten of swords suggest you're unwilling to take the steps that will move you to a better place. Perhaps you're deceiving yourself or you're stalling due to fear.

43:42 But delaying only makes things worse. Stop making excuses and choose a course of action." That kind of makes me think about Anna and she had threatened for so long. I have this little black book. She haven't really done anything with it. And it's like you almost would have been safer had you released it. You know what I mean? Because then it's out there and everyone knows about it. So if something happens to you then it's obvious. Exactly. But if it's just like a rumor about it. Yeah. In a reading about money, the reverse ten can represent a time of recovery after hardship or loss.

44:26 A new cycle is beginning and better times may wait around the corner but you must take the first step. If the reading is about your job, you still feel insecure about your future. But in order to get a more satisfactory place, you'll have to take a risk. Stop letting the past prevent you from embracing new possibilities. Or is this like about someone who did something bad instead of something good to like further their advancements? That'd be yeah. Just because you're taking action on something doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.

45:06 Uh-huh. Okay. This is interesting. In a reading about love, you may still be smarting from a deception, disappointment or the trail. But at least you can see more clearly now. If a relationship has ended, you may experience a new sense of freedom. I really wish we could know whether Anna moved away. I really would like to be able to know what happened to Anna because it would really inform us in a sense like it, is it even possible that she's the lake grove Jane Doe?

45:48 There are so many other possibilities. I like to think that the police just paid her off to move away and change her name and never come back with her little blockbook. Yeah. I feel like that's certainly a valid possibility as well. I don't know. It's hard to know which of those is more likely or if any of them ever happen. You know what I mean? Like, I definitely also want to know who this person is, but I also don't want it to be anybody. I mean, it's someone regardless. I know it is definitely somebody. I mean, this might make you feel a little bit better as awful as it is that her case, you know, Anna was never really investigated and so much of the Oak Grove Jane Doe evidence has now lost.

46:41 They do still have the case listed on the Clackamas County website. So I'm going to link to that because there are images of the items that were discovered. So we do at least have photographic evidence of some of the things, obviously given the nature of some of the items that were recovered. There are some images associated with the case that are, you know, perhaps on the more graphic side, but I think it's important to use what we do have to try to see if there's even a remote possibility of still solving the case.

47:22 And who knows? Maybe those records aren't lost lost. Maybe, you know, the fact that they have images of the items that were lost. Maybe those are things that like somebody can point to, you know, when they just uncover like a random evidence, you know, bag or box that, oh, this, we thought this was lost forever and maybe we do still have it. Like they just lost track of it, not lost it. I don't know. I'd like to think maybe that's a possibility. I mean, it is a possibility. Yeah. Likely does that. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. And I think even if it isn't that it was Anna and that the police like actively like made that evidence go away, I think the fact that it's, you know, essentially gone missing for all intents and purposes, I think, yeah, it's probably unlikely that it will be recovered, but it would be nice.

48:21 Wow. Yeah. Is, did they ever connect any other body found in this like type of way? Like, did they ever think anybody else was, I guess we kind of talked about the serial killer thing. They didn't really do that back then. Yeah. To my knowledge, there weren't any other, there weren't any other remains that were recovered within like a timeframe or that matched kind of in other aspects of the case that were necessarily linked. I think there are just other missing persons cases and other, you know, killers that, oh, this could maybe link up.

49:03 So that's also a possibility. Maybe, you know, I think probably anybody that might have confessed, probably has taken that to their deathbed and beyond, but you never know. I mean, maybe somebody wrote in their journal like, yeah, a long lost journal. Yeah. Oh, man. There is a long last letter that is how we know that she was being fed information from other police officers. Oh. Yeah. That was recovered in some public records. So that's something that, that's in my sort of source material.

49:44 It'll be in the paste bin. One of the articles that refers to that, was that like a case she was helping on or was that like from her court case? No, it's specifically related to her. So interesting. Yeah. Oh, it was really interesting. So I mean, I think, you know, it's very convenient. I don't know how plausible a lot of conspiracy theories, especially when it pertains to like a law enforcement cover up. Sometimes, you know, we know that there are faults on the part of law enforcement and the justice system. But in a lot of cases, it can seem like kind of a reach. I think in this case in particular, it feels like, woof.

50:26 Yeah, there could be some truth about that. She was heavily involved with police in multiple, multiple different ways. Yes. Professionally and romantically. Business or producer? Do you think maybe the wife did it? The jealous wife. You know, I just strictly super conspiracy theory. Yeah. I feel like anything's the possibility, but I think that one seems unlikely. Yeah. I think, you know, not that women aren't capable of doing horrific things, but I think a lot. It is. It is. And I think just the nature of how the body was dismembered and disposed. I think that for a woman of that time, that may have been a little bit beyond reach.

51:12 Yeah. I think typically your wife was, I mean, and not to say that I approve of this, of course, by any means, but, you know, you're in a little bit shorter leash. Oh my God, I've seen the same thing like kept on a tight leash. Yeah. So I just think it seems unlikely that that is has a high likelihood of being the possible explanation, but. And without being graphic, it's like a very physical thing to see on a person. Yes. No, I mean, and that's exactly what I think as well. It's, that's, I doesn't get much more personal or much more violent than that.

51:55 And like, oh, how long that takes and to spend that much time doing that many different cuts. Which is also interesting. We got like the 10 of swords. I don't know how many like cuts were made to the body, but it seems like there could very well have been 10 of them or more. I mean, numerous because there are the cuts that are separating the limbs from the body, but there are also, and I think this is particularly important because fingerprint technology, like that, that's a science that existed at that point in history. I don't know that the hands were ever recovered. The hands were severed from the arms.

52:38 So that is interesting. Yeah. Like where did they decide to dispose of those or did they try to like burn them or something else? Yeah. Burned buried. Who knows. But I would think that would be aside from maybe the head, the hands might be the most readily identifiable body parts in a case like this for the time. So I don't know. 10 cuts, I don't know. Possibly. Very likely. I don't want to like think about trying to like count. I'm already doing the map of my head and I think 10 ish or, you know, I feel like 10 plus actually is a very good possibility.

53:23 You know, to sever each of the limbs and then the hands were already up to eight. Yeah, eggs. Very yikes. Just logistically, I hate it. I hate everything and here we are. Where's package is ever? I know, not very Christmassy, but I would turn the money on Amazon. Yeah, they did not come with a gift receipt. I can't scam a little code and return it at calls. No QR code. Man, I just really hope there's something someday. And then we're around to talk about it together. I know.

54:04 I really, there's a little part of me that's like, okay, is there like a place that people can, like, can we go and look through like an old evidence locker or like, is there like some sort of like volunteer record system where like, oh, shit, we thought all of this was like bookkeeping. But maybe there's, you know, crime scene evidence. I don't know. It would be hard, a hard thing to like try to get people to not like fuck up any evidence while they're searching for things. But it would just be, that would be a really interesting thing I would love to like volunteer and help out with. Yeah. If there's anything that needs to be like searched for, I'm good for looking, I'm good at looking for things.

54:46 Yeah. I'm good at organizing things. Yeah. Yeah, maybe we'll have to look into that and see if there's, I doubt that that will be the application, right? But it would be, it would be cool to look into some volunteer opportunities for things like that to like, you know, maybe these are things we can do that make a difference in. Yeah. Because there anyway, we could help without fucking anything up, you know, I wouldn't want to hurt more than hell forever. Yeah. I think, you know, I think maybe we'll take the more proactive role actually on that. Yeah. My number is, yeah, I feel like I would probably, oh, wait, they know, they're police.

55:28 They can just look up my records. Yeah. What's going to say? I have police records. No, I'm going to absolutely piss my pants thinking about this. Oh, I was like, do you have to pee and I like keep talking. No. Okay. But just that's like such a nerve wracking thought to be like, you know, just contacted by law enforcement. Have you ever like had your info like been fingerprinted? I don't know if we've talked about this before. Have you ever been like fingerprinted? I think I've ever been fingerprinted. I worked at a daycare. So you fun fact, you have to go if you work at a daycare, get fingerprinted and like input into the system and like, I think that's for the best. It totally is. I was like, I have no problem doing this.

56:10 I will gladly do this. But like, now I'm in the system. They got, they got some offing prints. Yeah. I can't do anything wrong. Well, and I would think that of jobs that I've had over the years, probably if there was one where I would be required to do that and where it would be useful maybe to have somebody's fingerprints is like, I worked at a bank, you know, when I was a teller, seems like, I mean, I would want fingerprints for anybody who's handling that, you know, sort of volume of cash. But then also when you're touching like so many individual pieces of like, you know, paper essentially all day, every day, like your fingerprint becomes like such a, like commodity.

56:53 Oh, okay. You're going to see it all over everything. I thought you were going to see your fingers get too dry to where they can't read your fingerprints. Oh, no, I don't think that's a thing. Because like touching paper makes your fingers dry. It does. Yeah, absolutely. I know this. Yeah. Because I do a lot of shredding. And I now wear gloves. Also because I get so many paper cuts. Oh my God. I get paper cuts. Like if I even look at a piece of paper, I'll get a paper cut. So I have to wear gloves. I'm really prone to them as well. I feel like working with money, you don't really have that issue so much, but your hands do get really dry. Especially because you're constantly sanitizing them because money is very, very, very dirty. And I asked you, that's how you create them.

57:34 Super bugs, Kayla. And we were just talking about the, it's not the same. It's not the same. It's the same. It's definitely not the same. No, I mean, one of the times that I have been truly like the sickest, I would say arguably that is like a cognitive true memory in my mind that I can remember. It's like the earliest is when I went through teller training and I had to go down to Salem and I came back very, very ill. That's when I had mono. Oh, you got mono from touching money? I don't know. I got mono in the time. Were you making out with the money? You're like, "Oh, a honey."

58:15 Yeah, I think, unfortunately mono I think is one of those things is just like very highly contagious. No, you have to make out. It's a rule. I'm pretty sure that that's not how that works. It's the kissing disease. I know. Okay, well now I'm giggling now because you're also I'm totally kidding. I know that it can be transmitted otherwise. It's kind of like COVID, right? Where it's just like highly contagious. That's what I was saying. I was just yanking your chain. It is spread through saliva, but... Well spit when they talk. People spit when they talk, but also have you ever seen somebody like their finger?

58:55 Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah, we shouldn't do that no more. No, you never should have done it, to be honest. But yeah, it makes sense actually now seeing that. I mean, all you have to do is come into contact with somebody else's contaminated saliva. However, that happens. So it could be a dored up, whatever. But it is popularly referred to as the kissing disease because it's transmitted through saliva. Yeah. Can you get it like through your cuda or wewie? Like if someone's licking down there, could it... Could you get it that way or does it have to go from like mouth to mouth?

59:38 No, because you could like get it in your eye. Yeah, I mean you exactly. Feel like any orifices. Any orifices. Any mucus membrane, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Did I just say cuda or like wewie? Yeah, you did. You sure did? I am a grown adult. The Gina penis. Could have fooled me. The Gina penis. Jesus Christ. That's like my least favorite word. I just like, cause they're fun to say and like funny. I don't like any of that. Kuchi Miamiao. That's what Brittany calls it. Kuchi Brinio says Kuchi Miamiao. I'm dead. Anyway, this has been an actual real polyclinzer, but it's black.

1:00:26 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think we were sensing that that was what was needed. Mm-hmm. It's not at all because one of us is dangerously low medication. And one of us is unmedicated. And the other is almost unmedicated, not by choice. Yeah. Yeah. There's Biatch. Chars Biatch. Well, it's depressing as that was. We still hope you're having a wonderful holiday season. Yeah. Winter solstice. Yeah. Winter solstice, you lit up. Yeah, she's right around the corner. Right, the 21st, right? The 20th or the 21st? One of those. Roundabouts.

1:01:06 All right. Should we do the thing? Do all our business. Okay. Have a creepy ass day. See you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday. I don't have anything funny to say. I'm sad. Okay, I'm stopping. Bad journalism. Okay. I'll start over. Go to Minnesota. Go to Minnesota. And be bad. And we be bad in Minnesota. [LAUGHTER] [Music] pnwhauntsandhomicides.com