The Hammer Man Strikes: Harvey Carignan's Brutal Legacy

0:00 They found maps of various states as well as a clump of hair made up of a composite of several different individuals, which is super gross. The maps had several locations circled through out multiple states. One of which was where Kathy Sue Miller was discovered in Washington, while yet another circled location was where Laura Leslie Brock had been found dead, also in Washington state. Hi, Cassie. Hi, Caitlyn. Hi, creepy people. Oh, hello. Hello. If you're new to our creepy corner of the world, this is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal, all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest. We also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight into our topic. Hmm, sister groan if you're into that. Yes, please.

1:10 Yes. This is I'm guessing going to be a very long episode because I have like 90 million pages of notes. So, pretty sure you said that on your last episode. Yeah, no, it was kind of a long episode. Are you calling me a liar? No, I'm just saying. Why do you got to keep doing this to us? I don't know, and it could have been so much worse because I was researching something else in the last couple of days. And even though I had a couple of things that were closer to completion, I thought, no, no, no. Let's start from scratch. And it turned out that was a big, ball of yarn. I wasn't ready to unravel all that. Oh, yeah. So, there we are. This was a case that was like, comparatively about, you know, the 80, 90% done. So we're wrapping her up. I was wanting to switch up the order. And I like to kind of try to do different types of cases and just, you know, give people a little variety. This is different than the last one that I did. And it is, um, while I get, I'll just tell you, shall I?

2:31 Is it still sad? No, this one's so happy at the very end. Okay. So wait for it. Wait for it. Wait for it. Okay. Harvey Louis Carignan was born May 18th, 1927 in Fargo, North Dakota. Oh, yeah. Beyond that, we're not going to dwell on his seemingly awful childhood much because to be frank, including a bunch of his biographical data, really eats into our time. And it's feist to say that's already so much to cover. There's so much to cover in this case.

3:15 I want to know more about Fargo. No, I don't think you do. I, well, it gets a little like Fargo's movie. He's recounted bullying, physical and sexual abuse that occurred throughout his childhood. And while it might inform us about his psyche, it obviously isn't going to excuse a single one of the absolutely horrendous crimes that he committed throughout his life. Harvey has been known as the Hammerman, the Hitcher, and the Want Add Killer at various times. I don't want the Hammerman. It is not Hammertime. No, it is in fact never Hammertime.

4:02 But all of these aliases or monocurs have one thing in common. They denote an evil, misogynistic and particularly sadistic serial killer. We're not going chronological to start with. So hopefully everybody can get on board with moving around a little bit. Where's that white board? I know. We need a white board. In fact, we're going to start around the time that he should have probably been buying a sports car or whatever else men do when they're having a midlife crisis, like having a fair or dating ridiculously young women, I guess.

4:43 Dying their mustaches. Yes, exactly. Yeah, see, she gets it. I'm basing that on my extensive romcom research, of course. Everything that would piss katherine heigl off essentially. Never do that. Never do that. Anyway, we're starting off at a period of time when Harvey was already in his mid 40s. Rather than the gross aforementioned things that he could have done at the time, he was committing a heinous crime. One of many that he is known to or suspected to have committed for which he would never receive a conviction. Oh, great. Yeah, so cheerful. In Seattle on Wednesday, May 2nd of 1973, single mother Mrs. Miller was concerned about her only child as the evening hours unfurled. Kathy was 15 years old about to turn 16 in less than a month.

5:48 She had a boyfriend and they had the most wholesome relationship. She was a good girl who had rarely, if ever, given her mother cause for concern. By 7pm, Kathy's mother began calling around to her friends to try to locate her daughter. The mother and daughter had a rare disagreement recently as Kathy had wanted to take on a summer job. She found an ad looking for a gas station attendant, which is not a job that I would feel comfortable taking myself as an adult woman or certainly would not want my teenage daughter to have. Yeah. When Kathy called about the position, the man stated that he needed to fill the position.

6:41 ASAP. Hmm. Her mother wouldn't be able to make arrangements to take her to meet the man and person at the gas station for an interview and to fill out all the necessary paperwork right then and there. Cause that's kind of a lot. Yeah. The man offered to pick her up at an intersection nearby her home after school. But of course, Kathy's mother said, oh, he'll know. That's weird. Yeah, that is weird. At the thought of their squabble, she began searching for the ad and quickly located it. She called the number listed for the gas station and inquired whether Kathy had in fact done this despite her disapproval. Uh oh. Oh. The man stated that he had driven to the agreed upon spot, but the Kathy never showed. So he took off after a few minutes. Totally a believable story. Like what?

7:45 When her mother speaks to Kathy's boyfriend, he is apprehensive as he knows that she wasn't supposed to take the appointment, but admits that he did wait with Kathy for the man to show up. Oh no. Yep. He had a paper route and after waiting a while for the pickup, he had to take off to begin his afternoon route, which I don't feel like you hear very much about people having an afternoon paper route. Yeah, it's kind of weird. Is that a morning thing? Yeah, what kind of afternoon papers? Yeah, it's weird. I don't know. That just struck me as like, oh, but obviously it's true and there's so whole sum. He's not lying about his paper route, but he told Kathy she should go back home. He's like, I don't think this guy's showing up. But of course, when he left, she was still standing there waiting in hopes that the man would show up. Obviously, he's also now incredibly concerned about Kathy not having returned home yet. Yeah. So Kathy's mom calls Seattle PD to report her daughter missing.

8:59 It wasn't well documented what action might have been taken in regards to the reported disappearance that evening, but they did at least accept the report. Well, it's good. Yeah, that is something. Did they say that she just ran away? I don't think that, you know, interestingly enough, this is one of those cases where we're, I don't think we're going to get that line classic, though it may be the next morning, the case is handed off to detectives, Dwayne Holman and William Bowman. They follow up with Mrs Miller because their concern, the situation seems suspicious as well, which I think probably had a lot to do with the details of like where she was more than likely going. The boyfriend confirmed. And obviously, she hasn't come home overnight.

9:55 So that's more concerning. They go out to the gas station to interview the man and are greeted by a man who is six two around 200 pounds. And his name is Harvey Louis Carignan. He's the owner of the business. And it's a very successful local gas station. He employs a number of teenagers in the area, which like, it was the 70s, but how are so many people like, okay, with their kids like working at gas station shops? You know, I just, I don't know. I don't know. I can't, I don't know. It was a simpler time. Yeah. It's a very successful gas station, though. Like I said, Ann Bruehl, a famous true crime writer, ever heard of her maybe once. Yeah. She described Harvey as a huge man with hands like, "Hams." Hands like, "Hams?" Hands like, "Hams." Like, "Hams."

11:05 And a ham like a honey-baked ham. Ham hands. A brow that resembled that of a latter day, crow magnum man. I don't know about this. I will show you some pictures later. And, you know, stunningly accurate in at least one respect for sure. So hopefully that paints a little bit of a picture for you. You're welcome. Ham hands for sure. Ham hands. Yeah. Very descriptive. Yeah. Very big hands. Basically like my arch nemesis when it comes to hands. I think it's a meaty mitts on them.

11:45 Yeah, meaty mitts, a way like that. He tells officers that he had wanted to hire a teenage boy, but he'd been open to interviewing and hiring Kathy. He reiterated the same story that he told Kathy's mother. The man seems very obviously anxious in officer's presence. Aside from a stress sweat, he also appears agitated by some of their questions. There were no witnesses stating that they saw Kathy with this man. So there's nothing beyond their previously made plans to tie him to her disappearance specifically. So not a lot to go on, but they're like, "Maspidy senses." You know? Yeah.

12:37 And a review of his criminal history does not take away from their suspicion. He had a record dating back to the late 1940s when he was in his early 20s when he was enlisted in the army. He was stationed at Fort Richardson in Anchorage, Alaska during this time. On July 31st, 1949, a woman named Laura Schowalter, who was in her late 50s, was walking home from the theater. Sadly, she never made it. Hopefully that was a really good movie that she saw that night.

13:18 I hope so. When her body was discovered, it appeared that she had died as a result of several blows to her head. There was an eyewitness who'd stated he'd seen her in the very same spot where her body was discovered the next morning. Only that evening, she hadn't been alone. He said there was a man with her and they appeared to have been romantically or physically engaged. Oh. He didn't think much more of it just assuming that the pair had been on the date. Yeah. I heard some different accounts that indicated that maybe he shouted at the guy like, "Hey, you know, get a room." But it doesn't appear that he intervened in any significant way. And how would you know? Yeah. Exactly.

14:16 The witness was able to provide a general description of the man. So authorities now knew that he was a white man over six feet tall. Apparently that height would have been more remarkable back in the 70s. Like people are taller nowadays and they went back then, I guess. He was a soldier likely in his early 20s with mutton chops. So he's got meaty mits and mutton chops. Nice. Yeah. The eyewitness was later able to identify the man in a lineup. Harvey Louis Carignan. Oh. However, beyond that, they didn't have much to be able to tie him to that crime. So I think it's not nothing, right? They did see this man with the woman who is now super not alive. In the same place. Yes. That's pretty good. I feel like that's significant. It's pretty circumstantial, maybe overall, but come on. Come on. Come on.

15:26 Then on September 16, 1949, there was the attempted sexual assault of a woman who is referred to alternately in source material as either Dorcas Callan or Christine Norton. This is where it got really weird. I wasn't able to determine why, but newspapers dating back to that time versus more modern source material gave different names. It's possible that the victim had wished to remain anonymous and so an alias was adopted. In any case, this time the victim was able to escape her attacker and she went to the police to report the assault. She told them that she was attacked by a drunken sailor. When she rejected the soldiers off-putting advances, that's when the encounter becomes a violent attack. This second victim was able to identify him in a lineup in addition to the witness that placed Harvey with Laura at the scene of that crime, strengthening the case against Harvey. Wow. Yes. Now we have a surviving witness who was herself attacked.

16:49 By December 1949, he was found guilty of the murder of his first victim, Laura Showalter, and was sentenced to death by hanging. Jesus Christ. Alaska did not fuck around. They did not suffer fools. I guess they didn't realize that that was still a thing. Yeah. That's, you know, my handful of years after World War II. Yeah. I just think of it like, you know, way back in the pilgrim days, you know, the 1800s. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Oh. Yeah. An announcement was made that he was to be executed on the morning of March 3rd, 1950. Spoiler alert.

17:33 He was not obviously. We've already talked about one crime. He committed well over two decades later. Just in case that got lost for anyone. Maybe he's Jesus. We came back to that. Yeah. We don't have the whiteboard. I'm just trying to help the date, time, and location of his scheduled execution were all provided to the public, which I have some feelings and thoughts about, but we're not really here for that. Still like public like out in the town square. I think a lot of executions were still done publicly. I think in many cases, we didn't see that really fully go away until like, let's just say this, our parents were alive. Prior to sentencing, his defense council had requested a new trial. Of course, this request was denied by the judge who in turn sentenced him to death. His defense had cited 11 different grounds for the request, including that he had been promised that he would not be put to death if he provided a confession. In 1951, he was granted a new trial on the grounds of his confession having been improperly obtained. Because they were like, no, no, no, we don't kill people that

19:04 confess and then they were like, just kidding, switch a rule. Can't do that, man. No, you surely can't. Don't call me surely. The Supreme Court overturned his death sentence due to a violation of the McNabb rule, resulting in a sentence of 15 years from death to 15 years. 15 years. But then they did do something that felt like kind of on the level of harshness of death. He was then transferred to Alcatraz in 1952. Oh, yeah. That's funny. I just took the book down and replaced it with another book.

19:47 That's right. Gosh, I noticed that and I was like, she's going to need a book. I'll put it back up. I don't know. Interesting. Yeah. From there, he would be paroled in 1960, after serving less than a decade of his 15 year sentence. Wow. Just about half of it. I don't know how you go from death to that. I just- Death to 15 years and then maybe you serve like eight. Why? Where did the death thing go? I mean, the death thing when they took that off the table because they did come about that sentence and the confession in a not super legal and ethical way. But I mean, I get that. But like, what happened to life? Yeah. I mean, it went from the death sentence to 15 years then to okay, just kidding, you can go now after that. Yeah. You were just about to kill this dude forever and ever and ever, but then you let him out in eight years. Death is forever. I don't. Yeah. I don't. I'm not a fan.

20:50 Following his parole, he moved to Minnesota. Minnesota. It's several years later before Harvey is entangled in the legal system again. Like not that many. You know? Actually, like not anymore years. It's literally in 1960. Kind of like they should have kept him in prison. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, he immediately turns around and was like, "JK, guys, I'm back." On August 5th, 1960, he was arrested for burglary, assault, and attempt rape. But this time, he's in his early 30s.

21:31 So, you know, now we're going chronologically. Okay. From here forward, mostly, I think. He was convicted of the charges and through some sort of sorcery, I assume of the Black Magic Variety. He was sentenced to just two and a half years. Did they know that he was in jail before and like was about to be hung for murder? I don't think so. I think that was part of the point of moving across the country. They just, at that point in history, because jurisdictions didn't really have like shared records. They don't... There's no like database, you know what I mean? Google it. Yeah. Well, they weren't real big on Google in Back then Man. Yeah. So, also two and a half years, again, bringing your attention to the Black Magic. That is, burglary, assault, and attempted rape and only being sentenced to two and a half years. I don't follow. Yeah. He would serve two thousand 86 days in federal prison in Levenworth, Kansas, which Levenworth, I think, is you like, you probably don't really want to hang out there. But... He's been some places, man. Sure has. This man is seeing the world, mostly just here in the States and mostly prisons. Prison's of the world.

22:56 United States. When he was again paroled because, of course, he was, he then moved to Seattle. Great. Predictively, Harvey had hardly changed his ways. Made clear when he was sentenced to 15 years at the Walla Walla prison in Washington State, or second degree burglary. Wow. 15 years from... They got there. They got their sentencing. Oh, crazy. It is all over the board. We need the white board because it's all over the board. While incarcerated, he earned his GED and even took some college courses.

23:41 Cassie, would you care to learn more about what he was learning? I mean, do I have to? Well, his course is included criminal psychology. Of course they did. Because of course. He was released on parole in 1968 after serving about four years. Of the 15? Of the 15. Yep. From there, he met Sheila Moran. Quickly moving in with her and her daughter prior to the pair tying the knot. Oh. Though the marriage did not last, after he was jailed again in 1969 for another parole violation, Sheila divorced him. The filing cited physical abuse by her husband.

24:30 Thank goodness, Sheila. Is anyone surprised by this? You have no idea. Thank goodness, Sheila. Okay. I'm going to tell you. This is not something that I understand to have been included in the divorce filing. It was a little unclear to me as to when exactly this story was shared and recorded for all of our posterity. But at one point in the marriage, he'd reportedly stated that he heard the voice of God telling him to attack Sheila with a hammer. Dude, he'd intended to kill her because that's what happens when you attack someone with a hammer. But the plan was thwarted when Harvey had a startling realization. He's crazy? Oh no, he's never going to come around to that one. No. In the very moment that he was poised to attack, it was actually his stepdaughter. He had apparently been silently surveilling from downstairs in the basement, clutching his hammer in his ham hands. God hadn't intended for him to kill her.

25:59 So thankfully, at least this one awful plan was abandoned. Okay. So freaking bizarre and alarming. So he said that he was like about ready to go up the basement stairs presumably and attack who he assumed was his wife. But he realized all of a sudden he's like those footsteps sound really light. Oh my god. And he was like, because they're a child. Wow. Well, fuck, I'm glad he didn't decide to kill both of them. Yeah, I don't think the mom was actually even there. I think he thought it was his wife coming home, but it just was the stepdaughter. So lucky, lucky girl that day. Wow, wow, I'm going to say in that he didn't like try to do it when the mom got home later. You know, like it, what made him just completely stop. Yeah. I. There are a few situations where there's really not a lot of rhyme or reason. It just, I don't know. I'm the meme. Yeah. Of course, Harvey was not the type to be held down by time in the pen or failed relationships. Shortly after his release following the parole violation as the 1960s came to an end, he met and married another woman.

27:29 Her name was Alice Johnson and she had two children, a boy and a girl ages 11 and 14 respectively. Oh, I'm worried about them all. Yep. In the early 70s, it seems like he kept a slightly lower criminal profile for a second. His main vice appeared to be speeding, but appearances aren't everything, of course. In October of 1972, Laura Leslie Brock of Bellingham went missing. When she was later discovered, she was completely nude with the exception of Navy socks in the Oak Harbor area.

28:16 Her cause of death was declared as multiple blows to her head. No, no one does. Laura had been a sophomore at Western Washington State College. She had been raped and had been beaten and bludgeoned with an unidentified object. At the boarding house where she was living, she'd left a note stating that she planned to visit the beach. Her grandmother confirmed that it was Laura's intention to hitchhike despite her cautioning against it. She was traveling from Bellingham to the Olympic Peninsula. Harvey has never been charged in connection with Laura's murder. In fact, no one ever has. But he received a speeding ticket in the area during the period of time that she went missing. Oh my god. It's just like a casual two murders now that he's not officially been charged with. Just just just just the two. But he was right there in the area. Yeah, just hanging out doing ham-hand stuff. Oh god. Yeah, and then there was the fact that there was a witness that stated they saw her get into a vehicle matching the description of Harvey's very unique camper truck, which we will come back to because it is so unique. So what's the problem? That's like he was there

29:49 some time. Where's the lineup? I mean, put that bitch in another lineup. All that means is that she got into his truck though. In theory, I mean, again, you got to have some sort of evidence tying him not just to the victim, but to the crime itself. Did they search the truck? They're going to conduct a search of his truck. Not right now. Not right now, but they will. It will happen. At some point, after it's been cleaned. Oh, well, he does get a cleaned more than once. For sure. Yes, yes.

30:36 We've got something we're really excited to share with you guys. Let's hear a few words from our new pod besties. Can you hear me? Good to have you back with us. I hope you don't mind that I am recording for investigative notes. It's a wax cylinder. The only thing we found that can pick up the voices of people in your condition. My name is Owen von Sid. I am a reclamer. Do you know what that means? No? Well, I am sorry to inform you that you didn't make it. Please try to remain calm. The worst is over. Nothing can hurt you, not ever again. But the thing that did this to you, it is still out there.

31:23 That is what we do. I wake unfortunate souls, such as yourself. Hear their stories. Then my associates and I see to it that whoever or whatever did this to you is dealt with. Now, let's begin. When you are ready. Tell me, how did you die? Ghost Wax is an anthology horror podcast from far and tall tales productions. New episodes releasing weekly. Look for us wherever you get your podcasts. Check them out, creepy people. You can find their info in our show notes. Now, we are right back to where we started with Kathy. It was May of 1973 when Kathy went missing.

32:14 So, just to kind of wrap this up with a little low here. October 72, that's when Laura goes missing and then her body is discovered. And then May of 1973 is when Kathy went missing. After a super-legit job interview and that's all there is to it. I don't believe you. Yeah, I wouldn't either. Police informed Kathy's mother about the status of the investigation and their suspicions about the man who reportedly may have been the last person to see her daughter alive. Unfortunately, at this point, they don't have enough to arrest him. Really, they don't even have enough for a search warrant at this point. Somehow? Because no one like saw him actually with her or did they?

33:16 No, nobody did really. Not at that point. She then received a call from a man who said he discovered some schoolbooks in the parking lot of a business complex. He discovered that there was a name and phone number inside. He was attempting to return the books to the proper owner. So awesome. So cute. When the books were turned over to the police, they attempted to lift fingerprints from them to try to drum up any possible new clues. Sadly, Kathy's body was discovered by two boys on a hike in the Tulalip reservation north of Everett, Washington. She had been wrapped in viscuine plastic.

34:07 What is that? Just like plastic wrap. It's kind of heavier duty. A lot of times people will put it down when they're doing various like home improvement projects. Okay. She'd been beaten with a heavy object, leaving large holes in her skull. Some of them were roughly nickel sized, which is that's a lot of force. Yeah. But that horrific discovery wasn't the only development in the case. A friend or acquaintance of Harvey's reached out to law enforcement to inform them that he had given some viscuine to Harvey.

34:48 They asked for any of the role that he still had in his possession to try to match the cut edges of that sample to the piece that was wrapped around Kathy's body. A little bit of a reach probably, but like, hey, that's like smart. Yeah, like I'll take what I can get. Following this discovery, despite there not being an obvious match, they are able to obtain a search warrant. Reportedly, witnesses saw a truck driving onto the reservation near the area where the body was discovered and specifically on the date Kathy went missing. Also way more specifically, the vehicle was described as a Chevrolet camper truck. It was yellow with black stripes and a silver canopy.

35:42 What's with the black and yellow like a DB-tuber? Wasn't his a raft? Oh yeah. Black and yellow too. Yeah, it was. What's with these like bright, obvious look at me. It's not great. It's not great because it's really attention-getting. This was also, I know you'll be surprised to hear this, but it was a perfect match for Harvey's vehicle, but none of the witnesses were able to specifically identify the driver. So I guess our working theory is that now Harvey's very, very unique vehicle could have been stolen and driven by someone else. Totally. Did he report at missing or stolen? No, I don't think so. I feel like he might miss that if it were gone.

36:31 I would think so. Yeah, where's my bumblebee? Kathy had never been fingerprinted. Unidentified prints were found inside his vehicle because you know they did go ahead and give it a little just a little looky-loo, but unfortunately they had no way to compare them to who they thought. So no fingerprints from Kathy. There are fingerprints in the truck, but they cannot match. Why don't they have Kathy's fingerprints? She just was never fingerprinted. Why? I don't know. I don't know. And I think the condition of her body sadly did not make taking her fingerprints after her body was recovered possible. That makes sense. So thankfully, a comparison of dental records proved successful and they had a match. So they were like, yeah, this is super duper Kathy. They just couldn't match the prints that were in the truck too Kathy. So that wasn't super helpful. Could they not like go to her room and take fingerprints? I mean, I guess they could have tried that. Come on, let's go back in time. Let's try to rework this. Yeah. Yeah, that would be so cool.

37:58 From that point on, whenever possible, they surveilled Harvey, hoping that he might return to the scene where her body had been discovered, which is not a bad theory because that's a thing that does happen frequently in these cases, but he might know that because he studied criminal psychology. So of course, he wouldn't go back. I mean, or yeah, he didn't that we know of, but it's possible. I don't know. I don't know his life beyond these nine plus pages. Harvey's family meanwhile is being interviewed by law enforcement in the months that followed. His stepson went to live with his father reportedly due to physical abuse by Harvey. The stepdaughter didn't seem to like or feel comfortable with him. Weird. There may have been some accusations at one point or another about some sort of inappropriate behavior, but that was a bit murky. But she was still living with her mother and Harvey in their home while he's being investigated. But remember, she's about the same age as Kathy was at the time of her disappearance and murder. So that is so creepy. It was June of 1973 when Mary Townsend was attacked

39:29 while waiting at a bus stop. She had been knocked unconscious, but awoke in a strange man's vehicle. He tried to sexually assault her, but she left from a moving vehicle to escape him. Yeah. Bold moves. Like not that I want you to have to do that. No, God damn you. Do anything to get out of that situation. Holy shit. When you're between a rock and a hard place, jump out of the car. And you're like, when the car came into this, she had been a runaway at the time of her attack. And that's likely the reason, at least in part why she didn't report it. Despite that fact, this attack has also been linked to Harvey. As for his wife Alice, she was apparently trying to leave him around this same time, because she's like, this situation is looking tenuous at best.

40:28 Get out. She was not wrong. Yeah. When she filed assault charges in July of 1973, it did allow police to pick him up, even if it wouldn't allow them to hold him for long. In September of 1973, he picked up 13-year-old hitchhiker Jerry Billings. He forced her to perform sexual acts on him, while he assaulted her with a hammer. Surprisingly, Harvey released this traumatized child. She had survived, but would not speak of the horrifying incident until many months later.

41:10 God, she's 13. Yeah. And sometimes that's how trauma works. People don't always immediately flee the scene and go to the police, though that is a very good instinct. But sometimes, I mean, God damn, that is what trauma can do. And she's not the first or the only. So... And you said she was a runaway or was that from... That was the previous. Yeah. They're so nasty. I know. And it's gonna get so much worse. By mid 1974, Harvey had given up on the idea of reconciling with his wife Alice and had begun dating another woman, Elaine Hunley. Elaine, no, yeah. And honestly, how these two struck up a relationship is puzzling. Okay, this is so weird. Their meet cute came about when he found her on the side of the road after her car had broken down. So I'm sorry. How does she end up being someone he carries on a relationship with and doesn't murder? Yeah. Because that seems to be his thing like by the people on the road. Very strange. But the pair ended up shacked up in Minnesota. Again, Minnesota. Yeah, back to Minnesota. The law enforcement had been

42:46 able to hold him at least temporarily due to other charges as they built a case against him. For Kathy Summiller's murder, they weren't able to prevent his relocation. Harvey had sold the gas station and moved as he'd made his way back to Minnesota, fleeing as he had become the number one person of interest in connection with Kathy's murder. He was said to have passed through California. On his way to Minnesota from Washington? Yeah. I'm glad you picked up on that because my next line is doesn't seem like that's the most direct route probably, but I'm not that great with geography, but I feel like Minnesota is not down there. Not in that direction. He's just taking the scenic ground. Notably during this period, the bodies of multiple young women were found in the area as he was passing through. Some of those cases remain unsolved because there were a lot of serial killers in the mid-70s in California, but he literally has speeding tickets in the area where some of these women were murdered and I'm just saying, maybe. Wow. Yeah. So why is speeding? What you trying to get away? Why? Why? Why you got

44:18 joy so fast? Because you went the wrong way in Minnesota's in the other direction? Or because the the woman you just killed is in that direction. Maybe a little bit both. When Elaine inevitably broke up with him, because where he's a piece of shit, it didn't take long for her to suddenly disappear. No, Elaine. Yeah. She left him August 9th of 1974 and it thankfully didn't take long for those closest to her to report her missing. They're like, weird how she's not showing up to anything, including her job. I wonder if we should be concerned about that. And they were like, yeah, yeah, you know what? We took a vote and we decided, yes. Someone check on Elaine. Elaine. She okay.

45:16 She is super done. Okay. Her body was discovered just over a month after her disappearance. Her death was clearly a homicide. The beating she endured leading to her school actually imploding. Horrifying. I had to read that several times over. I'm like, I'm sorry. Did you say implode? That is what? Every time you say something about the school, I just go back to the Lizzy Board and the pictures of the parents' goals and like, I, this is one of those cases where I'm like, your school's not supposed to do that. She was also raped with a foreign object, a tree branch. No, why? Which is like, okay, a stick is, that's, it's all bad. It's real bad. A tree, a branch.

46:26 Men are so fucking gross. Well, this man certainly, I mean, come on, let's be honest. Nurse, he's not the only one, but I have no further. That's all I want to say. I hope he's getting sexually assaulted with a tree branch every single day in hell. It's funny you should say that because there is a very happy ending to this story that I feel like is sort of, it feels like poetic justice. It's not like a tree branch, but you might argue possibly even more horrific. So something to look forward to. Great. Yeah.

47:13 What page are you on? Seven. Though each of his crimes have been incredibly brutal, it seems this marked a turning point or perhaps the better term might be escalation. That's what I was thinking. Yeah, carrying out such a horrific attack on his own partner rather than a stranger seemed to have Harvey, I would say fully unhinged because the following month he would perpetrate an astonishing number of attacks, those some ended in markedly different ways compared to Elaine.

47:53 Remember before when you said there's just so many, it's happening so fast. Buckle up buttercup because holy shit, it is about to, it's fast and furious style. Like it's like the 11th one. I don't want to go fast. I don't know. If you ain't first, you're biased. I want to be last. In early September, two teenage girls named June and Lisa were offered $25 each by a man driving by to help him retrieve his son's vehicle from somewhere in the nearby area. Kind of vague and they were like, "Twenty-bottles." So they happily agreed. Do anything for $25?

48:37 They're about to walk into a basement and like I'm screaming. I just threw popcorn everywhere. But honestly, you should be able to take $25 from someone asking you to help them. Like there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. But just to be clear, you're super-can't. Don't get in cars with strangers. The only safe way to do gig work is probably through something like fiber or task rabbit or something. You want your movements to be tracked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eventually, they realized that they appeared to be going quite a bit further out of the way than he had described. When questioned about this, he reportedly asked the girls, "And nothing can prepare you for this question, especially when you are traveling in a vehicle out of town with this man." He asked, "Would you rather be killed or would you rather be raped?" That's not a fun game of "Would you rather?" No. That's you're doing it wrong.

49:45 Doing it so wrong. So wrong. You're supposed to ask, like, "Would you rather eat a booger or like swallow a bug?" Yeah. Suck down a fart. I don't know. Yeah. It's not weird. It's not. Not appropriate. Well, they actually responded, which I wasn't expecting, but I feel like they just wanted to make their wishes known, I guess. One of the girls replied on both of their behalf, which also kind of presumptuous, okay? Stating that they would rather be killed and turns out her friend agreed, because she was like, "Yeah, pretty much. Damn. Yeah." When he finally stopped the vehicle, his instructions were that one of them was to stay in his truck while the other followed him to retrieve his son's vehicle. So he's picking up the story about how we got them out there in the first place. I need help getting my son's car. And they're like, "Okay, okay." Still though, like, what choice do you have? So one of the girls accompanied him following him into the woods. And she happened to be the one that he attacked with a hammer. But miraculously, somehow she does survive. In a shocking twist, he apparently allows both girls to live and just drives away in his truck, which I feel like kind of downplays the fact that he attacked her and like, he left them both essentially for dead.

51:27 So he did attack them both? Um, unclear. I'm given to understand that it was just one of them that he physically attacked. Since fucking off all no matter what I had. Yeah. Yeah. Then something even weirder happens over the next few days. Multiple different young women come forward to the authorities to describe a man and his vehicle that had attacked them. What? Who could be responsible for that? Is it the same vehicle? Yeah, they're all describing the same dude and the same. Is it the same one he had before the black and yellow camper thing? You know that? I think so. I don't think he even swapped out the vehicle. Yeah, which is wild. Wild. This is like animal planet level. Wild. Actually, the animals aren't even this wild. Is this a speculative documentary? This isn't real, right?

52:36 It's like the mermaid. It's not real. Oh, it's unfortunately very real. Yeah. Okay. Then on September 14th, 1974, Gwen Burton is picked up from a Sears parking lot where she was apparently having car trouble. The man had told her he could help fix the issue with her car and she had agreed, accepting the offer to ride along with him to pick up his tools, which is like, why do I need to go with you? Yeah. Can you help with my tools? Yeah. I mean, I guess back then, I think especially, you're just like, oh, this person's going to help me. I'll just go along to keep him company. But like he's a grown-ass man. He'll be all right. He was alone when you found him.

53:26 Anyways, not her fault just saying, don't do it. Right. She became suspicious after some time seeing how far out of the way the man appeared to be taking her. She asked him to take her back to her vehicle or even just to let her out where they were. However, he refused and of course then attacked her. He began ripping at her clothing and choking her. He took her to a field where he then raped her with a hammer before beating her with it. Following this brutal attack, he simply, he's like, bad, deuces, he flees the scene. He just leaves. Unbeknownst to him, Gwen is still alive and struggles a way to try to get help. She would later identify Harvey in a lineup. Yeah. However, the brutality continued as Harvey picked up two additional young female hikers, Sally and Diane. The most wholesome names and he forces them to do not necessarily super wholesome thing. He forced them to perform oral sex under the threat of violence because they weren't going to do it because he was so good looking. Again.

54:52 Cannot, cannot, cannot overstate that. They were eventually able to escape when Harvey later made a stop for fuel. Cannot make this shit up. You might think that as more victims seem to be escaping his oversized man hands that his reign of terror must be coming to an end. Well, not quite yet, unfortunately, though law enforcement from more than one state was they were like, buddy, we're onto you. And also don't call me buddy, pal, guy, friend. Harvey was still on his brutal bullshit.

55:37 So there's another disappearance in September of 1974. So like September, September, September, so many horrible things. It's a rough time. You know, you think back to school is rough. That's when Kathy Schultz went missing. Her brutally beaten body was discovered in a cornfield outside of Minneapolis. Her school had imploded. Never gets easier to say that or this and she too was raped by a foreign object. As if that wasn't bad enough, sadly, she had actually attended school with two of his very recent prior victims, Sally and Diane. In his hasty attempt to distance himself from this latest crime, he left tire imprints where he'd abandoned Kathy's body.

56:42 When law enforcement searched Harvey's vehicle in Minnesota, following the death of Elaine Hunley, remembered this as his ex-girlfriend and he was like, if I can't have you, nobody will. And she was like, oh no, I imagine. They found maps of various states as well as a clump of hair made up of a composite of several different individuals, which is super gross. He had a hair doll. Not a hair doll. It was like just like a clump of hair. I don't think he was trying to make a doll. You don't know. I don't know. I don't want to know. That's creepy. That's too much for me.

57:24 The maps had several locations circled throughout multiple states. One of which was where Kathy Sue Miller was discovered in Washington while yet another circled location was where Laura Leslie Brock had been found dead also in Washington state. Kathy Sue Miller and Laura Leslie Brock had gone missing within just a few months of each other. And remember, he was a person of interest in Kathy's case before he fled to Minnesota. Thankfully, multiple victims that had escaped his clutches were all able to identify him.

58:05 June, Lisa, Sally, and Diane all positively I did him as their attacker, which is kind of a lot of witnesses. Yeah, it seems pretty damn solid. Yeah. Maybe don't let him go this time. When he was charged in relation to these crimes, that he was believed to have committed in Minnesota, Harvey hired an attorney. He would go on to confess to multiple killings, though he claimed that God had instructed him to do these things, which is, I don't know, man, like God's kind of all over the place in the stories I've heard. Sometimes he's like, "Kill one of your kids!" And then sometimes he's like, "You know, I'm trying to convince people not to cut babies in half."

58:55 And it's really all over the board. Again, just another good reason for the white board situation. But I didn't cross. So apparently we're going for the insanity defense. I mean, he seems like legit. Something's going on in there. I mean, there's not right. Yeah. He was charged with attempted murder and aggravated sodomy, which he would have to go to trial for prior to any additional murder charges. Harvey was then sent to St. Peter's State Hospital for a pre-sentencing psychiatric examination, where he was diagnosed with a severe anti-social personality disorder.

59:41 By mid-1975, things are kind of starting to fall in place in terms of the legal case against him. Harvey was found guilty in connection to multiple charges filed against him for the attacks on Jerry Billings and Gwen Burton. Because also, you know, some of them, they Gwen was like, "That's super him!" Right there in the lineup, I see him. It was that guy. So he was sentenced to 30 years for each, though he was only ordered to serve 40 of the 60 years that he was sentenced to in total.

1:00:22 Not really sure why, but it really doesn't matter. Because next, he was indicted on murder charges in the cases of Catherine Schultz and Eileen Hunley. Harvey pled guilty to the second-degree murder charge in the case of Catherine Schultz receiving a 40-year sentence. He was found guilty of Eileen's murder as well, because duh. However, this first-degree charge carried a life sentence. There were Supreme Court shenanigans, but his conviction was appelled in 1978.

1:01:02 And the next couple of decades were relatively uneventful until his prostate cancer diagnosis in the late 90s. I'm trying so hard not to smile with Lee. Feels still somehow like maybe a little mean to... Dorothy, the speeder. No! Anywho, he died in "You're Not Even Gonna Believe This Cassie." I had to quadruple check this. He died in March of 2023. Like? That's last year. A year and a half ago. Wow. At the ripe old age of 95, after serving nearly five decades behind bars for his crimes. Good. I mean, he made it for last time. But like, that's also not to mention all the time that he served as a younger man.

1:02:07 But like, five, almost five-fold decades. For a handful of the crimes that like we know, me like, dude, did it. They didn't get him on everything. There are two murders that... It's like, we... Again, I think we know even if we don't like, know he did it. Yeah. Kathy Sue Miller and Laura Leslie Brock. I mean, they were spotted in his vehicle or his vehicle was spotted near where their bodies were fat. Listen, I don't like to say. And normally I would, you know, allegedly, allegedly. You couldn't force me to give a single flying fuck.

1:02:52 You can't sue us. He super did it. But just funny because, you know, not a tree branch, but something did literally climb up his ass and kill him. Yeah. Well, but a cancer. Super awesome. I don't know if it was actually the cancer that killed him. Most of what I could find out there basically said he died of natural causes. I don't know what that is exactly. I don't know. He was diagnosed with cancer in the late 90s. And then he lived for like 25 more years. So... Man, I hope it was a really painful. Yeah. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Am I right? I hope we got no pain meds. Yeah. I mean, I don't think they're big on rolling out narcotics to violent offenders, but what do I know? Hashtag, not a doctor. Well, I wish they would have fucking just hung him in the first place. I mean, just could have saved like potentially, you know, I don't so many lives.

1:03:58 So many lives. I have a trauma of so many young girls and women too. Even the survivors. Like, rampage after. Yeah. Yeah. September was like a rough time. 1973. And then, let me say, I think it yeah. And then 74 back to back like rough times. But September 74 is when it just like dude, you got a calm down. I need you to take several seats. Do you think he just like knew he was getting caught soon? Or maybe it was just his sickness was just getting worse. Yeah, I just feel like it's it's so classic. We just see this with so many serial killers where, you know, they talk about it in every, you know, true crime series or, you know, even fictional or not.

1:04:52 Everything that you watch about crime and they talk about how, you know, escalation. And it's like, I feel like at some point they just sort of get to a stage where they either think they can't, like they're invincible. They can't get caught. There's sort of the myth that they want to get caught, but I think they just reach like a fever pitch. It just becomes a frenzy and they don't give a shit what evidence they leave behind. They either think they can run forever or they just don't care. Yeah. So I don't know. Please catch me. Don't. I'm gonna do my thing over here. I'm just over here being a ham hand. Ham hand having son of a bitch me and my hammer for laughs. So all the ones where you had said that they passed from like the blunt forest trauma. It was, do they think it was all a hammer or different? There were in some of the cases, it was clear that like some sort of a weapon or object was used, but there was indeed, I think it was the first murder where it was alarming because this woman was, I mean, completely unidentifiable. Like you could barely tell that she was human.

1:06:13 And the horrifying realization that they came to, and this was something that I didn't include, but now that you're asking. Sorry. No, it's, they were a horrifying realization that came to them as, you know, they were examining the body and everything. They realized, oh my god, we thought that this woman was like beaten about the head with an object. And this was nope, just his ham hands, he did this with his bare hands. That was, I believe, Laura Showalter, who was his first, at least, known victim when he was living in Alaska as an enlisted army man.

1:07:05 He did that with his hands, with his bare hands, with his ham, hammy bare hands. Why was also thinking to a hammer isn't that big, you know? And his hands are, so it's like, I don't know, it just seems so like super intimate too, because it's not like something that you're swinging like it. Yeah, the object creates, like, not just a physical, but sort of like a psychological distance between you and the crime that you're committing, I would think. Yeah. Yeah. No. That makes sense. It's awful from every potential angle, you know, from which you can examine it. So that's cool. There's a lot of other source material that I looked at that talked about other cases, a little bit more in depth that he was potentially involved in.

1:08:01 There was a case that I couldn't find substantiated really in anything that I was finding in terms of source material. I don't know if they changed the name of the woman that they were referring to, but I came across a relatively, I think, reputable source where they were referring to a victim that I was like, I can't find this person by name anywhere else. And it was really bizarre because I was like, there's no, there's no other source material that seems to like have alternately named her like, like we saw with Dorcas versus Christine, depending on, you know, the source material and at what point in time you're reviewing. I don't know. I have no idea where that person came from. It all sounds very much like Harvey and it sounds like it played a very pivotal role in his downfall that I couldn't find any information about it. Oh, yeah. It was, I mean, there's just so many victims and there's so many people that he suspected having to have either abducted, sexually assaulted, murdered. I mean, and again, some of those are unsolved. It's like, okay, well, I don't know. Do we have anything that we can like test? Do we, do we have anything that we could like, I don't know, run some DNA and try to, I don't know, like crazy idea I had here, but what if we tried to solve it anyway?

1:09:37 I know, like just to just to know the things are solved. Yeah. I mean, because here's a crazy thought, then it's like, we know that he did it and, you know, I feel like probably somewhere out there, those people, you know, maybe they've remained unidentified officially for all these years, but more than likely that person has family, right? And they probably would like to know what happened. Maybe we do it, you know, for that. And maybe if it wasn't him, I don't know, maybe then we keep looking. We just get wild and we figure out like, was it maybe somebody else? Maybe they were younger than Harvey was at the time of the crime and maybe there's somebody else who's still living freely that like totally got away with murder and everybody thinks Harvey did it. I don't know, Tommy Crazy, I just think we should solve the crimes. Just solve all the crimes. Just solve them. You know, I understand that there are active ones. I'm not saying that it's easy, but I do think, you know, there's, there's a lot of cases I think that we're kind of sitting on and it definitely has to do with budget. I propose, I have an idea. Get it. Let the podcasters do it.

1:10:58 If no one needs to be convicted of any sort of home DNA, just give us all of the information and let us kind of solve it for you. Present it to you. You can double check our work, you know. I think the issue is that a lot of these, it's like it comes down to that if we just took the time, if we use the resources, if we spent the money, that's probably the most critical piece, just to run, you know, whatever DNA samples or other forensic evidence with more advanced, you know, technology all these years later. I think a lot of them could be solved, but those resources just are so often not available or they're not allocated to that.

1:11:46 Maybe one day there will be no crime left to solve and then we'll just have to focus on all the last ones. Yeah, you know, just not let Oregon rebound in terms of the backlog of rape kits again. Yeah. Like just happened because we have a backlog again, apparently. So like, great, great job, guys. Great job of that. I read that recently and I was like, I'm so angry. It gives me crazy eyes. Just stop fucking raping people. Yeah. What? Like it's hard? Literally it shouldn't be that. Yeah, it just don't do it, you know. That's so easy. It's so easy to just not do the things that suck. I'm in from my perspective for what it's worth.

1:12:41 All right, well, now we've talked about as butt cancer. Should we introduce some tarot? Let's do some tarot. Tirit! Okay. Okay, pick one. Oh, interesting. Okay, we drew the sun. We're using our tarot, Toreal dick. Do you want to know something really weird? Yeah. Obviously. See the shirt I had on? Oh my gosh. That's so funny. I didn't, I really didn't even notice.

1:13:26 The sun. And I put it on. I was like, oh, what if we got the sun card today? That's weird. This is not weird. But like totally doesn't have anything to do with your terrible case. I mean, I guess we'll see. Okay. So our keywords are joy, success, enlightenment, marriage and vitality. I was associated with obviously the sun, fire. The numbers one and ten. The sun card features a blazing sun. Sometimes with a face sun beams radiating out from it. Beneath the sun in the rider weight Smith deck, a smiling nude child rides a white horse. Some decks show two children with their arms around each other.

1:14:23 Other decks picture a young couple holding hands. The sun rules the zodiac sign Leo, which astrologers link with child children, pleasure and creativity. All righty. The sun card represents life itself for the sun gives life to everything on earth. Interesting. One of the most joyful cards in the tarot, it signifies vitality, confidence, achievement, attainment and success in all endeavors. Okay. I feel like maybe I feel like maybe in the interpretation here, we might get a sense of who this is for or maybe why we're this is a just strange card to draw for this, but I feel like maybe it's starting to make sense for me a little bit. The sun brightens any negative cards in a reading no matter where it appears in the spread. Its influence is always beneficial. A new day is dawning and you're glad to be alive. Whatever your question the answer is positive.

1:15:38 For creative people, the sun can indicate a time of increased inspiration and productivity. Whatever you undertake at this time is likely to prosper. For the sun is shining on you. This is a good time to start new projects and expand your horizons. It's your day in the sun. Just makes me sad because it's like the opposite of yeah. He took every all of those women's sun, their light, their life away. Yeah. I totally agree. I really does. I feel like the points in each of the bullets, they don't necessarily feel like they really add anything that gives me greater perspective on this. I feel like this is for the girls that lived. You know what? That's interesting.

1:16:37 You say that because I was just thinking, well, that's who I was thinking of when I, he didn't even cross my mind while I was shuffling to be honest with you. Yeah. I was just thinking of all of the women. So that is interesting though. I do think that's the energy that I mean maybe even unintentionally that we were kind of putting into the deck. And I'm okay with it. Do we want to try to draw another one and just see what pops up? Yeah. Do we need to, I feel like I need to touch it again. Yeah. Because I wasn't thinking of him. Okay. I mean, I don't know that you have to think of him to be quite honest. Well, I just want, but just to get a little bit of, yeah, I don't know, something. I'm a little bit torn because I do think that like this is, it's such a positive reading. And I think that's the takeaway I want that. But it also was kind of like goes back to the beginning where you're like, well, it does end on, you know, the happiest note that it could possibly end on like he's dead. So yeah, he's no longer. Honestly, it makes me.

1:17:41 I'm so happy that he lived such a long life. Because a lot of these guys will get caught, especially when they're already, you know, like he was already in his like late 40s, I think when, you know, he was put away. And so it's like he could have very easily died a relatively young man. That's not unusual for people that are incarcerated for their life spans to be terribly cut short, which I say terribly because I think in a lot of instances, people, if they are wrongfully convicted or they're put away for decades, for something stupid, like, you know, smoking a little bit of weed over, you know, I just, that kind of stuff pisses me off because the treatment that people receive in prison is not ideal. It's not the ideal environment for you to grow and live a long and healthy life. But for this particular person, that's...

1:18:44 He's a fucking weed. He grew through the cracks. Okay, I hope he didn't get to see a lot of the sun, you know? I'm sure he didn't. I mean, he couldn't have. Okay. Having that conversation, I think set us on the right path for something more in line with Harvey, that. That'll do it. Okay, so we drew the King of Cups in reverse. Our keywords would normally be wisdom, understanding, focus, balance, and peacefulness in the upright position. However, when you draw it in the reverse, our keywords are coldness, volatile, immature, overreaction, and manipulative, which there are so many aspects of this case that like, I can't even, I can't even really delve into how relevant some of these are because they're just not things that I chose to dive deep on.

1:19:45 Really wanted to make sure we had plenty of time to discuss his ass cancer at the end. Yeah. As one does. As one does. As one does. Overreaction reminds me of like overkill. Yeah. Oh god, yeah. Oh, okay. So numerology, we've got numbers 14 and 5. It's, this card is also associated with the astrological signs, Pisces, Scorpio, and Cancer. I am almost positive that he was a Taurus. May 18. Taurus is for me. They're my favorite. Yeah, that is a Taurus. Yeah. Hey, listen, you know what? My grandpa was a Taurus and he grew up kind of in the same era as this guy. So I don't love it either, but I mean, it kind of made sense. He never, never stopped, not even jail, because it's awesome. Never stopped, never stopped, very headstrong. Yeah, yeah, really.

1:20:46 This card is also associated with water, which is interesting because there aren't really any water elements associated with this case that I can think of, really. Because cups and like water is like emotion. Yeah. Lots of emotions. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so this is interesting. We do have slightly different keywords in the big book. Oh, okay. These are obviously more intended toward the upright position, but I think it's interesting. Benevolence, culture, creativity, emotional warmth and protection. And we drew this.

1:21:29 And all things opposite kind of. Did they not give keywords for the reverse interpretation? Not necessarily. No. I don't know why you always thought that they did. Yeah, the reverse interpretation definitely does. It touches on how the placement of the card, how the meaning is different, but it doesn't specifically identify different keywords. Because the keywords and theory are the same. It's just sort of like the other side of a coin in a way. Well, not necessarily. Yeah, I mean, that's true. Not necessarily directly opposite. In this case, it works for me that it's like this. This is also judging from the keywords on the tutorial, territorial. Yeah.

1:22:14 Okay, so this is interesting. In many decks, this king sits on a throne and wears rich garments and a crown. He usually appears as a benevolent authority, a father figure, which I think it goes without saying that Harvey didn't have a really healthy modeling of what that might look like. He was a father figure, not a good one. Yeah. No. I mean, he didn't have that behavior model to him either. So it says who rules kindly and fairly, which is definitely also again, didn't go into the childhood nearly enough to elaborate how accurate that is. In a reading, the king of cops may signify an actual person. When he does, it's generally a mature man who's cultured and knowledgeable in the arts.

1:23:11 Which could not be further from the case. He studied criminal psychology. Yeah, he's very cultured and artistic. It's funny because as soon as I said it, I was like, well, he did go in person. Yeah. Okay. This is when we really, really, really get, we get to the crux of Harvey, I think. Is this where we get to the meat and meaty mitts of the situation? The ham of it all. Yeah. The reversed king shows emotional turmoil, insecurity and defensiveness. In security, I like the whole raping people with foreign objects just screams, yeah, in security.

1:23:56 It's a power move. It's just everything that's big. If he represents a real person, he can be manipulative, emotionally controlling and vindictive. And boy, oh boy. Yikes. Check, check, check. This card suggests dissatisfaction and frustration. Perhaps because you aren't using your creativity. Because you could have used your creativity to take a bad situation at so many different points in your life and figure out a way to creatively solve problems and make your life better. But you didn't. But you didn't. But how much of that was like his choice and like his mental illness, you know? Like if he had had maybe support for his mental illness, he was not entirely without support really. It was so long ago though, like they don't have like the medications that they do now and the things are very different. I do think that there's a lot of very clear indication that there are absolutely just like horrific choices being made, horrendous decision making. And that is kind of the crux of like, you know, he's just the recidivism alone just constantly being incarcerated in the parole violations and all of that. It's

1:25:32 just, I mean, come on, that's a choice. That's a choice. But God was telling him to kill people. Right. You know, so that's, I mean, is that obviously I'm not excusing him. Can you say, I'm just, no, it's no, it's part of the story though. Like it is. If things had been different, if there was better medication, I just wonder like what, yeah, but what have been different? I don't know how they would medicate for something like a severe anti social personality disorder. I think he had to have had like schizophrenia or something. If he's hearing God tell him to kill people. I just, I think that a lot of my resources kind of indicate like that was just something that, I think most people just believe that something he said.

1:26:17 I don't think that that was, I don't think that was real. I don't think that was real. Who knows? Who knows? I mean, he did mention more than once, you know, how God told him things and said, do this, do untrue God and just like screams gets a franning at me. Like people in your head telling you to do things. I mean, and that's fair. I can see how you, yeah. But also he studied criminal psychology. So what they're just making it up, who knows? I, you know, and that's the thing is like I struggle with like, okay, how much of this is real? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Nobody knows. And you know what? We, fortunately, we don't ever have to find out really. Okay. Oh shit. Okay. Okay. Terrows here to back me up in a reading about money, the reverse king can show losses resulting from decisions made emotionally rather than rationally. Just hello. Not a lot of rational thought there.

1:27:20 Sometimes it indicates laziness, lack of direction or an indulgent nature that lands you in debt. Like indulgent. Indulgent. Yeah. If the reading is about your job, this card suggests territorialism and power struggles, which is yeah. If I, if I can't have you, nobody can. That's yeah, that's kind of immediately where my head goes. Okay. You may fear losing ground and try to control others. Absolutely. Secrecy, duplicity and manipulation may exist in your workplace or just like wherever you go. It's so interesting. You said he afraid of losing ground. Is that why he was speeding constantly? I mean, that could be. And ironically, then he left tire tracks.

1:28:15 Yeah. So grand. He did lose ground. He lost like little bits of some and they were in that he's neat little lines that represented his specific vehicle. In a question about love, the reverse king can mean fear of expressing love and caring. Jealousy, defensiveness and or emotional outbursts may cause problems. Perhaps you feel insecure in a partnership. Wow. Just insecure man all around. Yeah. A lot of insol energy. Yeah. I mean, let's face it, a lot of a lot of serial killers really do represent like this. It's a it's a real it's a real strong insol vibe in that crowd. Yeah.

1:29:07 Yucky. Yeah. Well, thanks for telling us about another one. Appreciate you. You're so welcome. I'm really excited to share with you guys another case. And it's interesting because there are sort of some parallels, you know, mainly geographically and some things like that. But yeah, I'm California. California doesn't specifically make another appearance. Washing this. Washing tin. Yeah. In a way. Yeah. Minnesota. Not Minnesota, but the Midwest. I'm just guessing all the places you talked about today. Name them off one by one. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, the big one would be, you know what? No, I'm not going to say it. No, don't say it. I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to say it.

1:29:59 Have the creepy ass day. We'll see you next Tuesday. I'll show you on the Patreon because there's a good chance we'll see you sooner. Probably. Yeah. Usually. Usually do. We see you all all the time. [Music] I'm wild. Obviously I thought up until basically today I was doing it completely different case. And I was like, "Well, you should a bit off more than I can chew with my ham hands." I can make that joke because clearly I don't have ham hands. They're not, they're nothing like a, they're, I can barely pick up a ham. They're more like, piglet hands. Oh, I do have kind of like pink. My hands are always a little pink. I just make Christianard do some little little, little, little, little piglet. Little piglet hands. pnwhauntsandhomicides.com