Susan Cox Powell Part 2 – Fire & Fallout

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Psychologists later cited the Powell case as a textbook example of coercive control,

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the slow corrosion of autonomy that too often ends in lethal violence.

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Chuck and Judy Cox transformed their grief into advocacy.

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Through the Susan Cox Powell Foundation, they fund programs addressing intimate partner homicide risk

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and missing persons awareness. They speak often about early intervention warning signs,

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isolation, financial control, threats, masked as jokes.

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Hi Cassie. Hi Caitlyn. Hi creepy people.

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Oh hello. Hello. This is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime,

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the paranormal, whatever strikes our fancy. In the Pacific Northwest.

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All the PNW, if you're nasty, we also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode

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for a little bit of deeper insight into our topic. Anything else?

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Oh, let's go say on our topic today is extended from last week.

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Oh yeah, part Adol. And with that.

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Without further Adol. It's the in the weeks after Susan Powell vanished on December 6th, 2009

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from her Utah home. Investigators followed every possible lead.

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Searchers scowled, they scowled, you know, I'm sure they scowled real hard at Joshua.

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I mean, they honestly did, but also searchers scoward hundreds of miles of Utah desert,

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mind shafts, remote campgrounds, storage units rented under variations of Josh's name.

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Oh, he had like a bunch of different storage units.

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You know, I didn't really target this thread, but I think that they were just looking for

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like a situation where he might be using a alias or you know what I'm saying?

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Is that legal? They just search a bunch of random people storage units.

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I mean, if they've got probable cause, they have warrants.

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That just seems like how would they get a warrant for that most?

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They could prove it was his storage unit and that's really interesting though.

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Yeah, I can see why that's like kind of a big thread to go down or a big hole to go down, but.

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Exactly. And it's like, you know, that's probably not going to yield all that much.

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Yeah, but I'm super interested in that.

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It is. I know you mentioned something and I'm like, but wait.

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But wait. What I want to know about.

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And I'm like, but wait, there's not more.

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And there, this is such a small piece of the story that it does not matter.

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But yeah, I'm like, not even at the end of the first paragraph and you're like, but I have questions.

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This is where we need like an accompanied, what's that called?

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Like a company podcast.

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Oh, like a companion podcast.

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Like a companion podcast where we have like a lawyer, like a cop or someone come on

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and explain how this would happen.

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Yeah.

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Any cops or lawyers interested in wanting to be our companion, you will get no money.

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It just seems like, oh my god, if another could say committed a crime and they came and searched my storage unit.

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Yeah.

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I would feel extremely violated.

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Yeah. I mean, and you wouldn't necessarily be entirely wrong.

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But, you know, they're going to do what they got to do.

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They dug and sifted through snow and held vigils that blurred one winter into the next.

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Cadaver dogs alerted twice in the Simpson Springs area, but snow and wind wiped away what little scent existed.

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But for all the movement, no one could shake the feeling that the case had frozen in place.

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Stuck between what investigators suspected and what they could prove.

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Detectives later said they believed Susan's body had been moved multiple times.

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Oh.

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Yeah.

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Oh, God.

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Speaking of chills, like just to bury someone anyway that you've murdered is just like so gross.

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But even saying buried, that's a presumption.

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Yeah.

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You don't know.

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Right.

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I guess I'm saying like doing whatever they're doing with disposing of the body or wherever they're writing it.

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Yeah.

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Is so gross anyway that moving it or raising it.

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Is this such a desecration like disrespect?

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It is.

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Yeah.

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No rest.

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Like she's already gone.

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Let her have some peace.

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Mm-hmm.

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Wow.

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Detectives kept surveillance on Josh's house for weeks.

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They collected trash, watched his comings and goings, and noted how he start his car, sit for long stretches, then drive aimlessly.

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Hmm.

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I don't know.

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I mean, it's odd, but nothing necessarily criminal about it, right?

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Is that what he was like used to doing when he would like pretend to go to work or something?

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You know what?

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Honestly, it's a fair point.

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It's just his routine.

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Yeah.

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On more than one occasion, he circled the great Salt Lake's Western Rim.

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Miles of open desert that could hide almost anything.

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Through it all, Josh maintained a routine that unnerved even his friends, as did his referring to Susan in the past tense so shortly after her disappearance.

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God, come on.

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Mm-hmm.

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You're not even a good liar.

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Not even close.

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I mean, we've kind of established that in part one.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Can't even pretend a little bit here.

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Come on.

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Yeah.

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Like, I can't even give you an A for effort for like what a day.

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He kind of pretended to be.

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Maybe a little concerned.

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It honestly, it doesn't sound like he was very convincing to hardly anyone.

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Yeah.

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Like pretty much from the start.

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Like anybody that actually got a glimpse, they really just didn't believe him.

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Like his story was unbelievable.

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His demeanor was suspicious.

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Everything about this just wreaked of like, what the fuck?

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I wonder if like he felt like he was going to get caught or if he was just walking around like thinking he was.

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Going to get away with it or whatever.

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I mean, I still don't know either way, but I'm just like I'm wondering where his head.

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Yeah.

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I want to know where his head was that as gross as that sounds.

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I'm just curious.

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Yeah.

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I'm not sure that we're really going to get a solid answer on that.

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Right.

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I'm going to give you like, there are some things that we know and that are documented that maybe makes you feel like you get a little bit of a glimpse for better for worse.

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This is why I wanted like, I'm going to be a criminal investigator because I'm like, I want to know what the murder is thinking.

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You say that, but obviously I didn't do it.

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No, I mean, it's like the curiosity gets the better of you for sure.

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As the weeks blood into months, frustration hardened into anger.

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Online forums accused police of moving too slowly.

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Others dissected every 911 call in interview transcript as if the truth might appear by sheer force of attention.

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Church members brought meals to Josh for a while until his demeanor drove them away.

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One neighbor recalled, he'd talk about camping again.

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Like that wasn't the weirdest thing in the world.

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It was like he thought if he said it enough, we'd all start believing him.

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Like, is he talking about that same camping trip or like future camping trips?

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Or he's just like always talking about camping?

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Yeah, I mean, my understanding is that he was referencing the infamous camping.

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And they were just like, dude, why are you like harping on this?

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And it just made them so uncomfortable that they stopped doing the nice, you know, church person thing of like bringing him in his funs meals.

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Damn.

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Yeah, but my understanding is that it was like he was trying to like,

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re-sement with everybody that he was speaking with.

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Like this is like kind of the series of events and trying to kind of cement his alibi.

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So to speak.

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Yes.

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How awkward. God, how awkward to be the people that he was talking about that way.

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Seriously, like, dude, just fuck off.

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Co-workers said Josh had made comments about how to kill someone, dispose of the body and not get caught.

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At the time, he'd said he would hide a body in a mineshaft in the west desert of Utah, believing law enforcement was extremely unlikely to search an unstable mind.

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Who is he saying this to?

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He's talking to just people about it. His co-workers.

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What the fuck?

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Not super safe for work.

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I got to say.

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I thought it was awkward before that was this before or after.

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This is before this predates Susan's disappearance.

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He's at least smart enough to not talk about it after, but I mean just barely.

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By summer 2010, the searches had slowed, though not the obsession.

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Detectives combed mineshafts near Eli Nevada, volunteers organized fundraisers.

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Each time, bones surfaced in the desert, hopes layered and died again.

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Oh, shit. Did they find other people?

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Yeah. They definitely found other bodies.

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Oh my God.

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It's hard to know how to feel or what to say about that because it's like if she had an idea they wouldn't have found those other people maybe.

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But Jesus.

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Yeah. I mean, it's great that they were able to find something that maybe they didn't even know they should be looking for.

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Yeah.

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So it's like maybe that's in a way sort of a silver lining, but how disappointing to be going out and looking for this woman and finding literally everything but her.

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I guess you answered my question too if they searched Nevada.

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They did.

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They did.

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In March 2010, Josh packed up what was left of his Utah life and drove north to Washington with Charlie and Braden to settle back into his hometown of Puyola.

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No.

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Get out of here. You stink.

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Yeah.

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Not the kids. Not the kids.

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The move felt like retreat, but he claimed he needed family support. He moved in with his father, Steve Powell.

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The same man who'd once written love songs to Susan.

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The children had told their maternal grandparents all about grandpa's weird songs about mommy.

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I forgot about him.

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Mm-hmm.

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Ew.

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Mm-hmm.

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So this was his dad.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That is just like, God, what is their obsession with this one woman? Yeah.

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Back in Puyola, Josh reinvented himself as a single father.

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He blogged about parenting and posted photos of the boys at playgrounds.

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Every image looked staged.

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Two small boys smiling because someone told them to.

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By late 2011, Josh's veneer of cooperation was cracking. His sister Jennifer warned authorities, believing he was on a slow march towards something terrible.

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That's when she agreed to wear a wire.

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So technically before 2011, because January 22nd, 2010, Jennifer and her husband visited her father's house.

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So 2010, she wears the wire. 2011 is really when the custody thing starts to heat up.

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It's like this kind of period of time where things are just, it's so hard to map it on a timeline.

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Because when you say his veneer was cracking, it's like what veneer and, uh-huh.

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Also, it's literally like the cracks were in the surface from the start. It's right. Yeah.

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Anyway, they were January 22nd, 2010, Jennifer and her husband visited her father's house.

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There she attempted to confront her brother and ask some burning questions.

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So you remember how there were over 40 documented inconsistencies and his story within like the first week of Susan's disappearance.

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Yeah. That explains this next part because Josh told her there's a recording of him saying this.

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Josh said his attorney had advised that he not talk about specifics.

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Because he can't keep the details straight.

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Right. Okay.

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And also it like in general, even if you are, you know, actually someone that the public presumes is potentially innocent.

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Like you just shouldn't be talking about the details of the case with people that you like don't trust or more importantly, probably anyone outside your legal team realistic.

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Right. Yeah. Cause anything can be taken like out of contact. Yeah.

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And you're feeding the prosecution essentially. He has a lot of very specific things even taken out of context or in context looks suspicious.

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But yeah. Steve interrupted their conversation and turned on Jennifer.

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It got ugly with her father levying threats against her and the couple left.

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He was literally like swearing at her screaming at her. He threatened her life.

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Once safely back in her car, Jennifer may have been slightly shaken emotionally from the conflict.

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But her conviction was firm as ever that Josh had something to do with Susan's disappearance.

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So they have it on recording that he was like yelling at her and stuff.

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Geez. That's like the thing that makes me really nervous too is even if they're listening to you wearing a wire like they could come in and theoretically save you.

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If that person, you know, doesn't kill you or hurt you, you know, before they get there.

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Yeah. I don't know that this was a situation where law enforcement was like on standby.

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Yeah. They were just recording it. Right. Yeah. So her safety.

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It's even more dangerous. Yeah. Holy shit.

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The recording didn't yield a confession, but it gave investigators another glimpse into the family's twisted orbit and confirmed that fear now guide.

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Every conversation. If the recording was any indication, it wouldn't be long before the search for Susan was competing with something darker.

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The unraveling of the Powell family itself. A father-in-law obsessed, a husband growing stranger by the day and two little boys caught in the pull of a story that should have ended differently.

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In 2011, brought Steve Powell's arrest for voyeurism and possession of child pornography charges. No.

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That's it. The search of Steve Powell's home uncovered thousands of photos and journals fixated on Susan.

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Some were taken through windows. Others were close-ups, clearly snapped without her knowledge or consent.

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Were there like sleeping pictures of them?

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No, they were primarily photos that appeared to have been captured like when she was out in public places.

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Like I think some of them were probably taken in the parking lot of her workplace, things like that.

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Oh, that's right. You did kind of say that.

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Yeah.

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Which I don't know. They're both creepy. Like if he was like sneak and picks at home. But for some reason I was thinking it was like a home thing.

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Like he was following her around in her life too. And did they live with him?

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They did at one point. Yeah. Before they moved to Utah.

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Yeah.

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Oh.

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The discovery confirmed what Susan had confided years earlier that she'd about watched even from miles away.

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When news broke that he had hundreds of images of Susan, the public outrage reignited the case.

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The discovery functioned like a mirror every suspicion about Josh reflected through his father's obsessions exposing the family's toxic center manipulation, masquerading as devotion.

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The revelations also deepen the psychological portrait of Josh's upbringing, one shaped by dysfunction surveillance and sexual boundary violations.

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Investigators began to reframe Josh not merely as a suspect, but as a product of his father's warped moral universe.

229
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:49,000
Washington child welfare officials removed the boys from Josh's custody following Steve's arrest, citing the homes sexualized environment and Josh's unresolved status as a person of interest, granting temporary custody to Susan's parents.

230
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,000
Steve had also been a person of interest in Susan's case.

231
00:17:54,000 --> 00:18:03,000
Josh's psychological evaluations described him as narcissistic, emotionally immature and potentially violent, if cornered.

232
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:10,000
He attended mandated parenting classes and began building a paper trail of compliance.

233
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,000
So he's being a good, a good low boy.

234
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:24,000
He's doing his version of that. His sister Jennifer Graves would prove an invaluable witness in the case against her father.

235
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:30,000
She testified that her father used to capture photographs of two young girls in the neighborhood.

236
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:42,000
Outside of the courtroom, she spoke to reporters stating, "More than ever, I'm convinced that the boys shouldn't be with Josh and they certainly never should have been with my dad."

237
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:52,000
She was glad that her family had cut ties with her father long ago for the sake of their own children and that now Susan and Josh's would be removed.

238
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:58,000
Oh my gosh, so even his kids knew what was going on.

239
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,000
Well, it's funny you should say that.

240
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:11,000
She has also voiced suspicions about what Josh might have known about, you know, the child pornography.

241
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:20,000
I mean, she really didn't believe in giving either of these men the benefit of the doubt and why should she?

242
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:27,000
It was around this time that child welfare agents started documenting Josh's volatility in court records.

243
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:38,000
He interrupted supervised visits to berate staff, insisted the children were brainwashed, and refused to answer direct questions about Susan.

244
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:47,000
The coxist meanwhile moved to permanently terminate his parental rights, believing it was safest for Charlie and Braden to remain in their care.

245
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,000
For a moment, it seemed the system might protect them.

246
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:57,000
Until February 5, 2012, when it didn't.

247
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:03,000
Sunday, February 5, 2012 was a gray day in Graham, Washington.

248
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:09,000
The boys were playing happily as the time of their supervised visit with their father approached.

249
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,000
And they honestly didn't really want to go.

250
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,000
I can't blame them.

251
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:19,000
Judy Cox, Susan's mother coax them to proceed with their visit as planned.

252
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:32,000
Case worker Elizabeth, who was supervising the boys visit, pulled into Josh Powell's driveway at 8119, 189th Street Court East just before noon.

253
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,000
Which street court, what are we doing here, people?

254
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,000
I got, I was like, huh?

255
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,000
Couldn't decide we, but we did both.

256
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,000
Street Court East for fuck's sake.

257
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:50,000
Hardly the most upsetting part of this, but one hour, two boys and a father underscrutiny.

258
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:57,000
When she stepped from her car, Charlie and Braden sprinted ahead, excited to see their dad.

259
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:03,000
Because of course, by the time they get there and they actually see their dad, I'm sure they are excited to see him.

260
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,000
Yeah.

261
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,000
Josh smiled, ushered them inside, and then slammed the door.

262
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,000
With all the supervisors?

263
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,000
In Elizabeth's face.

264
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,000
Oh shit.

265
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,000
Elizabeth's knock met silence.

266
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:22,000
Elizabeth frantically dialed 911, the call coming in at 208PM according to the call logs.

267
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:28,000
She desperately tried to explain the details and the severity of the circumstances to the dispatcher.

268
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:39,000
In one of the most frustrating 911 calls I've ever listened to, the dispatcher's voice stayed maddeningly calm, clearly not grasping the seriousness of the situation.

269
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,000
Here's an excerpt from the tail end of the call.

270
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,000
Elizabeth, okay, how long will it be?

271
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,000
She's asking how long before officers will be there.

272
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,000
911 operator.

273
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,000
I don't know, ma'am.

274
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:57,000
They have to respond to emergency life threatening situations first.

275
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,000
The first available deputy will respond.

276
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,000
Elizabeth said, this could be life threatening.

277
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:09,000
He went to court on Wednesday and he didn't bring his kids back.

278
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,000
And this is really, I'm afraid for their lives.

279
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,000
911 operator.

280
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,000
Okay.

281
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,000
Has he threatened the lives of the children previously?

282
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,000
Elizabeth, I have no idea.

283
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,000
911 operator.

284
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,000
All right, well, we'll have the first available deputy contact you.

285
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,000
Elizabeth, thank you.

286
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,000
911 operator.

287
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,000
Bye.

288
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,000
There are a handful of minutes back and forth.

289
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:49,000
She's trying to explain who she is, why she is, where she is, who she is interacting with and in relation to what the situation is.

290
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:59,000
And this dispatcher just for the life of her could not understand what was going on apparently.

291
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:07,000
And it kind of felt like watching clips of Clinton saying it depends on what you think is is.

292
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,000
Wow.

293
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:22,000
I just like, I guess I assumed that if someone is supervising a visit from a parent who is like that where they've kind of established like he might be violent, didn't they?

294
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,000
I mean, yeah, it's well established.

295
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,000
I don't.

296
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,000
I can't have your kids.

297
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,000
The dispatcher doesn't necessarily have that context.

298
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,000
Right.

299
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:43,000
I was tempted to read the entirety of the transcript because it is literally like it will just make you want to bang your head against the wall until it leads.

300
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,000
Well, right.

301
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,000
That's kind of what I'm getting at.

302
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:55,000
As I assumed that there was some sort of direct line, I guess, to like the police, you know where there's not that explain the situation.

303
00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:00,000
Because the situation kind of already I think the situation actually isn't that complicated.

304
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,000
I think this is a real failure.

305
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,000
It's just crazy because like they're supervised for a reason, then they can't even get help.

306
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,000
Like that's nuts to me.

307
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,000
Yeah.

308
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,000
That does not make me feel safe.

309
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,000
Yeah.

310
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,000
And not that I need to feel safe.

311
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,000
That doesn't make me feel like any kid is safe anywhere, even a supervised visit.

312
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,000
That's insane.

313
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,000
Yeah, I would argue.

314
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,000
Yeah, that's a that's a little insane.

315
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,000
What is the point?

316
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:33,000
Here's the thing Elizabeth, the case worker, her full legal name is out there in association with this case.

317
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:44,000
And I think you'll see later, there are a lot of people that are going to have a lot of strong feelings about how all of this shit went down.

318
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:52,000
And I'll be honest with you, I'm not super familiar with what all of the protocols would be for somebody in her position.

319
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,000
But what the fuck was she supposed to do?

320
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,000
I don't think she did anything wrong.

321
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:02,000
She's very she's children to this supervised visit.

322
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,000
And you know, they're excited.

323
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,000
Now they see their dad in front of them and they go running in the door.

324
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:15,000
And she did the right thing. She immediately like called 911 when she's like, I've been knocking.

325
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:20,000
I'm not hearing him like coming back to the door like what is happening?

326
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,000
Yeah, that is not the person that I feel like.

327
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,000
And I don't you know, it's not like I want to lay the blame at any one person's feet.

328
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,000
If you had to decide person that like this wasn't their best day.

329
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,000
This wasn't their best moment was the dispatcher.

330
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:43,000
And truth be told, I'm not sure that anything that that person did made that big of a difference.

331
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:49,000
But it's yeah, a frustrating layer of just what the fuck?

332
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:59,000
I guess it's like it's hard to even know what to do because like not not all parents that need supervised visits are like criminals with murder investigations going on.

333
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,000
But holy shit.

334
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,000
Yeah.

335
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,000
I need just like a life alert button, you know, like some sort of button like hey, yeah.

336
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,000
Yeah.

337
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:14,000
Even that I don't think would have made a difference. Unfortunately.

338
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,000
Elizabeth's concern for the boys was well founded.

339
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:23,000
She'd begun to smell gasoline emanating from the house while on the call with the dispatcher.

340
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:31,000
By 1216, the dispatcher was notified that two units from the sheriff's office were being sent to respond to the call.

341
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,000
By then, it was already too late.

342
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,000
Just a moment prior at 1215 PM, the home had erupted.

343
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:45,000
The explosion flattening the structure and setting neighboring pines a light by 1229 PM.

344
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:52,000
The first unit had arrived at the scene, though by then the home was already completely engulfed in flames.

345
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,000
Holy shit.

346
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,000
He blew up his fucking house.

347
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:01,000
The massive explosion of the home had blown the roof clean off sending debris flying.

348
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:09,000
The inferno burned hot enough to melt siding and send plumes of black smoke curling over the quiet cold assack in Graham Washington.

349
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,000
A community just a few miles from where Josh grew up.

350
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,000
And this is important because with an explosion, obviously there's a lot of sound.

351
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,000
There's a lot of debris.

352
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:26,000
A lot of confusion, but Pierce County investigators ruled out any gunfire.

353
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:34,000
Investigators would later find a five gallon gas can in the center of the home where the bodies were also discovered.

354
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:44,000
They also recovered a hatchet near the entryway that had apparently been used to attack the boys before Josh ignited the fuel.

355
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:50,000
Both Charlie and Braden had suffered what were described as chop injuries.

356
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:59,000
For all three, their official cause of death was carbon monoxide poisoning, though Josh's death was classified as a suicide.

357
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,000
So they weren't even passed away when he lit them on fire.

358
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,000
No.

359
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,000
Oh my god.

360
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:11,000
He took an axe to the head and neck of his boys.

361
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,000
How could you do that?

362
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,000
It was obviously like planned if you had a bunch of gasoline in the house.

363
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,000
And you're not just walking with a hatchet.

364
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:26,000
And we have a lot of information about things that happened.

365
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:33,000
Things that came to light that show this was truly premeditated.

366
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:38,000
And he knew how to get them in there quick and like shut the door and do it quick before.

367
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,000
I mean, she's probably lucky that he didn't let her in.

368
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,000
I know. I was thinking that too.

369
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,000
Because I'm sure he would have honestly killed all four of them.

370
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,000
Public fury erupted.

371
00:28:52,000 --> 00:29:01,000
Commentators dissected the failures of communication between Utah investigators, Washington child services staff and the courts.

372
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,000
Chuck Cox, Susan's father later said.

373
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:13,000
The system, quote, gave Josh Powell every benefit of the doubt until there was nothing left to doubt.

374
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:21,000
Literally, the fire that tore through Josh Powell's rental home just south of his hometown wasn't just a tragedy.

375
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,000
It was a final act of violence.

376
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,000
But the story didn't end there in the aftermath.

377
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,000
Chilling digital breadcrumbs began to surface.

378
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:39,000
It sent emails in the minutes before the explosion, instructions about his utilities, his bank accounts and the remnants of his life.

379
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,000
Moments before the flames, his attorney received a final message.

380
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,000
I'm sorry.

381
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,000
Goodbye.

382
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:51,000
He'd even donated some of the voice toys and games to Goodwill days earlier.

383
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,000
But seems weird to me.

384
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:04,000
It's very weird, but it's all very clear that it's part of like it's all part of a premeditated plan.

385
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,000
Yeah, but like, why would he even go through the trouble of that?

386
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,000
I don't know.

387
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,000
Like he's going to explode the house.

388
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,000
Like, why do you need to get rid of things?

389
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:19,000
Why do you care that much about other kids having these toys that, but you're going to kill your children?

390
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,000
Yeah.

391
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:28,000
It's probably it's one of several like it's it's one of many things that are just it's so confusing.

392
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,000
It's so confusing.

393
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:48,000
How how is that important enough to take the time out of your day to go and make this donation, but yet you attack your own children with a hatchet and literally let them die in a house fire caused by an explosion.

394
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,000
I was so creepy to me for some reason.

395
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,000
Yeah.

396
00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:00,000
Detective said one voicemail obtained by family and ABC news captured his parting words.

397
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,000
I'm sorry to every one I've heard.

398
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,000
Goodbye.

399
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:09,000
There was no mention of Susan, not one word.

400
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,000
Wow.

401
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:18,000
Within weeks, Washington's Department of Social and Health Services launched an internal review.

402
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,000
The findings were blunt.

403
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:26,000
Risk assessment guidelines hadn't accounted for domestic violence related homicide indicators.

404
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,000
Control, isolation, obsession.

405
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,000
Law makers responded quickly.

406
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:43,000
The aftermath, tightened visitation protocols requiring thorough danger assessments and safe facility visits when a parent is under active investigation for violent crime.

407
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:57,000
There's no official Charlie and Braden act like we see a lot of times in kind of the response and the aftermath of these cases, but this case is what spurred a lot of these changes.

408
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:04,000
It's frustrating in a way, though, because it feels like there should be something that's like in their name specifically.

409
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,000
You know what I mean?

410
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,000
Yeah.

411
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,000
Because clearly, I mean, they died for it, you know?

412
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,000
Yeah.

413
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:19,000
In Utah, West Valley City Police reclassified Susan's case from missing person to probable homicide.

414
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,000
They publicly acknowledged what everyone already knew.

415
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,000
She hadn't walked away.

416
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:37,000
Just over a year after Josh died by suicide after killing their sons, his brother Michael Powell died by suicide when he jumped from a multi-story parking structure in Minnesota.

417
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,000
Jesus.

418
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,000
Themes and the fam.

419
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:52,000
Law enforcement released a statement later in 2013 related to Susan's case closure, indicating that he had been heavily investigated and they believed had intimate involvement.

420
00:32:52,000 --> 00:33:02,000
Many believe he helped Josh either when initially disposing of Susan's body or when he moved it at some point.

421
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,000
The brother did?

422
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,000
Yes.

423
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,000
That's what they believe.

424
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,000
Shit.

425
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:11,000
There's a lot of suspicion still surrounding essentially all of the Powell men.

426
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:20,000
People believe that either his father and or his brother had involvement in in Susan's disappearance.

427
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,000
What the fuck did this guy do to his kids?

428
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,000
Holy shit.

429
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:34,000
While lawsuits unfolded, Steven Powell was convicted in Pierce County of voyeurism and later for possession of child pornography.

430
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:41,000
They actually tried to overturn his conviction and that was briefly successful and then it was reinstated.

431
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,000
Thank gosh.

432
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,000
Thank gosh, Josh.

433
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,000
Why would they do that in the first place?

434
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,000
That's upsetting.

435
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:58,000
I didn't pull at that thread either because there is still so much more and I can't believe I'm saying that at this point.

436
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:03,000
He served multiple state prison terms and was released in July 2017.

437
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:11,000
And this is probably the most compelling evidence that there might in fact be a God.

438
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,000
Less than a year later in July 2018, he died from a heart related illness.

439
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,000
I was going to say so like he fucking got out.

440
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,000
That's upsetting.

441
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,000
It is upsetting.

442
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,000
Fuck.

443
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,000
Yeah.

444
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:32,000
I mean, it's just a little, you know, a little child, the porn and light stalking and that's fine.

445
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,000
Yeah.

446
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:45,000
Well, and I mean, the thing that like I also kind of struggled with in talking about like his case specifically is that like child pornography is also not really.

447
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:56,000
It is in most states, still the correct like legal nomenclature, but this is child sex abuse material.

448
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,000
It's not pornography.

449
00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,000
That is true.

450
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,000
Yeah.

451
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:05,000
So I hate saying that, but I guess I just didn't really know another term for it.

452
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:12,000
So yeah, thank you for saying that because I guess yeah, I don't want porn pornography is not a bad word.

453
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:21,000
Right. Well, and like there is such a difference between like consenting adults and what what this is.

454
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,000
You're blowing my mind, Caitlin.

455
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,000
I love you.

456
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,000
I kind of ate me a little bit today.

457
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,000
Why?

458
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,000
Why?

459
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,000
No, I love you.

460
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,000
It's just really awful.

461
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,000
It's awful, but you know what?

462
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,000
And what if you fuckers requested this?

463
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,000
You creepy fucks.

464
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,000
What we're learning.

465
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,000
And I feel like it's it's a really important story.

466
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:53,000
These are a lot of patterns and themes that we've talked about before, but the more that we talk about them.

467
00:35:53,000 --> 00:36:07,000
The more that like we can try to help the people that are potentially falling prey to them and the more that we can try to bring awareness and provide resources to people.

468
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,000
So that things like this don't happen.

469
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:20,000
Jennifer Graves wrote a memoir, a light in dark places trying to salvage meaning from the wreckage of her family name.

470
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:28,000
She's literally lost her father and her two brothers and her two nephews.

471
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,000
Sister-in-law, right?

472
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,000
Two?

473
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:42,000
Yeah, I'm just thinking about it like in terms of like her direct like family line, but like to her like the loss of Susan was like really devastating too.

474
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:54,000
And I feel like it can't be overstated that like she wasn't one of those people that's like an apologist for the bad behavior of her, you know, male relatives.

475
00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:07,000
And like that takes a lot, especially having grown up in the type of environment that I'm imagining that her, you know, that the powell children, you know, did.

476
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:14,000
Yeah, look how I mean look at the other two turned out like she could have easily turned out a piece of shit too, but she didn't.

477
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,000
Yeah.

478
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:24,000
You don't have to turn out like that you have a choice, maybe go to therapy that might help. Yeah, I mean never hurts.

479
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,000
Except that one time there is that one case that was real bad.

480
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,000
Oh Jesus.

481
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,000
Yeah, that's scary too. God, thanks Caitlin.

482
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:41,000
Her voice joins a growing chorus of survivors teaching how control escalates to catastrophe.

483
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:48,000
Psychologists later cited the Powell case as a textbook example of coercive control.

484
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:54,000
The slow corrosion of autonomy that you often ends in lethal violence.

485
00:37:54,000 --> 00:38:02,000
Chuck and Judy Cox transformed their grief into advocacy through the Susan Cox Powell Foundation.

486
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:18,000
They fund programs addressing intimate partner homicide risk and missing persons awareness. They speak often about early intervention warning signs, isolation, financial control, threats, mass, this jokes.

487
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:26,000
But if somebody is making jokes about hurting you, hurting your family, your children, it's not a joke.

488
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:34,000
Or even just like subtle jokes about like misogyny. Yeah. Getting the kitchen to make me a sandwich.

489
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:41,000
But like I sometimes catch myself saying that, but that's like actually not very funny. No, you know, exactly.

490
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,000
And that could be like threatening in such a subtle way.

491
00:38:45,000 --> 00:39:14,000
Well, and I think that's something that we have to really like be careful as women. Like even if we think we're making a joke where we're like sort of reclaiming this, you know, phrase or whatever, it's like we have to be really careful and be intentional about the things that we say because sometimes you don't know how people are going to interpret and internalize certain turns of phrase and you just can't know.

492
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:43,000
The deaths of Charlie and Braden Powell didn't just devastate a family. They exposed a catastrophic failure of oversight. Susan's parents, Chuck and Judy Cox filed a civil lawsuit against the Washington State Department of Social and Health Services, DSHS arguing that the agencies negligence in granting Joshua unsupervised access had cost the boys their lives.

493
00:39:43,000 --> 00:40:08,000
This is like more than 10 years after Susan disappeared this next part in July 2019, appears County jury agreed jurors found DSHS negligent and awarded the Cox family 98.5 million dollars for the pain and suffering of seven year old Charlie and five year old Braden.

494
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:29,000
Don't hold it too excited just that's like crazy. That's a crazy. Yeah, it's funny. You should say that. But weeks later judge Stanley Rumba reduce the verdict by two thirds to about 32.8 million calling the original award shocking to the conscience of the court.

495
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:45,000
Even so he admitted the facts were quote bound to bestur passion in the hearts and minds of any rational person attorney Ted Buck representing the Cox's said the legal team would consult with the family to decide the next steps.

496
00:40:45,000 --> 00:41:05,000
Those steps came in April 2020. Oh, quite the timing. Fuck how how the well anything done took a long ass time. Those steps came in April 2020 when the Washington Court of Appeals reinstated the full 98.5 million dollar verdict,

497
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:17,000
writing that there was substantial evidence supporting a significant award of non economic damages based on the horrific and brutal deaths of the two boys.

498
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:31,000
The ruling gave the Cox family long delayed vindication. Their long time attorney Ann Bremner called the opinion beautifully written adding simply it's been a long time.

499
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:41,000
Yeah, it took until like April 2023 for the decision to come back. So this is like 15 years that Susan has been gone.

500
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:51,000
At that point like over a decade since the boys have gone. Wow. That's also like really fucked up not that it's about the money.

501
00:41:51,000 --> 00:42:09,000
It's about them like winning the thing but like and then just to like not even take the money away or whatever give them a lesser amount but to like make them go through that for a year and then I for again to like what?

502
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:24,000
Like that's what just give them the 98 million and go move on. You already said it. Yeah, it takes back. These like I can't believe they were allowed to take back. These I mean I'm glad they got it in the end and yeah in the end it was like no take backs.

503
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:37,000
Today the West Valley city police evidence room still houses boxes labeled power case among them a single compact disc of family photos labeled in Susan's handwriting.

504
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:49,000
On the cover sheet doodle parts around her son's initials every anniversary investigators revisit leads. They no longer expect to find Susan alive.

505
00:42:49,000 --> 00:43:00,000
But they want to find her period. The search continues in intervals quiet methodical more about honoring a promise than expecting a miracle.

506
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:16,000
And to this day Susan. Susan Cox pal. I hate to even refer to her like with the last name Powell to be honest but yeah but that's like her kids last names it is I don't think she would be offended.

507
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:29,000
No, I don't mean I don't know her but. She has never been recovered. So it is a presumed homicide but I think you know everything given everything that we know about the case and everything that's happened.

508
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:46,000
In the aftermath since her disappearance it feels pretty safe to assume that Susan likely died that night in December 2009 and it's horrifying to think about what her boys heard what they saw.

509
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:54,000
Yeah and then to think about what happened to them just not even a handful of years later they were five and seven years old.

510
00:43:54,000 --> 00:44:10,000
I go by what the one little kid said in the beginning like mommy was in the trunk and like yeah you don't put people in the trunk that are usually alive or yeah and you don't leave mommy at the campsite when everybody else leaves.

511
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:19,000
Like people are not in the trunk for any good reason you know like no either either passed away back there or there someone wants them to be.

512
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:39,000
If you are someone you know feels trapped in a relationship that doesn't feel safe help is out there you can call or text the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-safe or visit the hotline.org.

513
00:44:39,000 --> 00:45:01,000
Shoe-flay. So here we are for Terra part two part and do where are we feeling left I feel like it's kind of bunching up on the other yeah okay that's so funny okay oh we're getting all types of new cards.

514
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:20,000
Okay so this one is really cool this looks like the seven of cups and it shows a dragonfly and there's like that's a lily pad down at the bottom but it's yeah so it shows the lily pad and then it shows the dragonfly reflected in the water.

515
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:28,000
Okay so we drew that in the reverse as well which is really interesting tell us what kind of dragonfly it is from the P&W deck.

516
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:48,000
This is a Pacific fork tale damsel fly. Oh damsel in distress. Okay so keywords in our P&W book are dreams imagination fantasy day dreaming illusions choices in decision.

517
00:45:48,000 --> 00:46:11,000
Who illusion is like kind of a good one for this yeah like the illusion of being a nice LDS family and you a lot of illusions really but you know I was thinking too like living on what did they live on Sarah Sarah circle Sarah circle like it sounds so nice and like hold some

518
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:40,000
it does it wasn't it was an illusion down here it's dark and quiet oh the water flows smoothly along its winding currents and the sediment and lily leaves corp collaborate to cast the muddy floor and shade but if you look up you might catch a glimpse of light and color the image will be distorted dream like a flash of lapis lazuli

519
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:56,000
astrowing diamond flicker time to rapid wing beats a ripple of deep black that catches the sun like opal well that's kind of weird because we were literally just talking about the tailors

520
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,000
and the

521
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:16,000
sun with opal light yeah there's actually some other like iconography that in both of the terrors kind of have related to our offline conversations that's kind of very weird I'm not going to get into it yeah it was offline but it was an offline conversation

522
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:38,000
clearly you'll have to approach pursue leave behind the safe familiarity of the underwater blade and vault into the light the sunlight will stun you into momentary blindness and the muffled murmur of the water will give way to a roar of crashing and burbling

523
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:56,000
but regaining your bearings you can see the damselfly clearly free from refractions up close it looks only a little like you expected but it's no less spectacular wow why do I feel like she's like in the water somewhere

524
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:07,000
yeah that was kind of my first thought I mean it's so hard because it's like so much desert and shit around the right right yeah like maybe they weren't maybe he was trying to like throw them off

525
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:24,000
he did spend a lot of time driving around you know the lake right Salt Lake area so oh no I don't know I mean it God I mean obviously we don't know but you're totally right I forgot that you said that about the

526
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:46,000
late keywords are possibilities potential imagination fantasy and we drew this in the reverse I love that other keyword on the the little interpretation book about the illusion and I feel like that adds so much it does the reverse seven can mean either you're in a

527
00:48:46,000 --> 00:49:01,000
new fog about your future or conversely you're finally gaining clarity about your direction in life perhaps dreams you held in the past no longer interest you and you're replacing them with new goals was she plant did you

528
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:14,000
mentioned she was planning to leave him or was she just writing about I mean I I have to assume that the thought had potentially entered her mind but I at least did not

529
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:28,000
really come across anything concrete that was saying she had a plan in place to leave but it seemed like she was more in a defensive position at this stage it was about protecting yeah you know herself

530
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:41,000
their financial assets right you know that we're primarily due to what she had provided and then you know obviously protecting their children that protective like crab

531
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:52,000
and then you know that's the thing we were talking about in the first arrow in a reading about money deception is a possibility someone else may be unreliable

532
00:49:52,000 --> 00:50:06,000
ding ding ding ding ding ding or you may be deceiving yourself or both two things can be true two things can be true if the reading is about your job your ideas and projects may not bear fruit

533
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:23,000
and then it yeah partly because you lack the incentive and focus to move them along perhaps you feel lazy or uninspired you'd rather dream them work listen to it the shoe fits Cinderella in a reading about love the reverse

534
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:33,000
seven can indicate lack of commitment or indecision in a romantic affair you may want to keep your options open indefinitely or you may

535
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:45,000
be able to get a relationship all out of proportion refusing to see the true that's like the the dad who was obsessed the step done no it was her father in law that's what I

536
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:53,000
mean that's my brain just like can't it's I'm so grossed out by it's really gross yeah really that would be worse no

537
00:50:53,000 --> 00:51:06,000
no honestly they're all bad it's all bad there's no scenario where someone who's in a father type figure in your life becomes obsessed with you it is literally like stalking you

538
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:14,000
and stealing their personal items and like taking photos of you yeah that's so gross like he was so delusional

539
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:28,000
there's no there's just no way that's not like the creepiest thing like it is it's terrible I hate it all right well was that it yeah wait okay so we got sevens on both

540
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:35,000
tariffs right yeah you're right what does that mean though when we pulled two sevens I want to know what that mean I don't know

541
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:44,000
what does it mean you guys I mean I guess we could just look at numerism right or is that the right word numerology numerology

542
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:55,000
yeah numerism what I mean numerism new words okay I don't know I don't know what bearing I feel like this maybe has but in numerology the number seven

543
00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:07,000
symbolizes intellectualism spirituality and intuition it represents the secret of truth and knowledge a person who is often introspective and a

544
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:23,000
deep thinker okay I think I think I think I'm seeing it now it's definitely not Josh yeah I feel like this is this is Susan yeah those associated with the number seven are drawn to philosophy and a deeper

545
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:35,000
understanding of the world but their introspective nature can also lead to emotional detachment or loneliness says highly intelligent logical and curious

546
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:49,000
interesting a very like deeply spiritual nature seeking deeper meaning well yeah she was part of like this religion she's got to be very spiritual yeah

547
00:52:49,000 --> 00:53:03,000
also her being so intuitive to kind of like write things down and make like a little paper trail of like if I disappear you know might not be an accident like that's very intuitive of her

548
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:17,000
I was just going to say so I looked at this a little bit deeper and I just think this is kind of an interesting perspective from like numerology it says analytical and intellectual

549
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:31,000
sevens are deep thinkers a logical problem solvers who enjoy research and investigation oh they don't take things at face value and need facts and personal experience to form their beliefs highly

550
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:46,000
perceptive and insightful wise with a deep understanding of human nature okay in connection with religion I just found this just as I'm like scrolling just for some numerology

551
00:53:46,000 --> 00:54:07,000
insight it says the number seven holds significant meaning across many different cultures and belief systems so if we're looking at it from like a Christian biblical sense it says it symbolizes divine perfection and completeness e.g. the seven days of creation

552
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:30,000
creation that is really interesting oh boy sorry that ruined it with that I went the right I went the ring on you guys my bad I know I went all summer up on your asses that's triggering for me have a creepy ass day see you next Thursday

553
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:37,000
oh boy

554
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:47,000
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