Loni Kai Okaruru: Washington County's Unsolved Hate Crime

0:00 Today we're going to talk about Lonnie Kai, who was born Lorenzo Okaruru. She was born biologically male, but knew from a very young age that she was not a boy. On August twenty six of two thousand and one, when her untimely and brutal passing occurred, her legal name was still technically her dead name. I do think the same can probably be said for a lot of victims of violence in this particular corner of the Alphabet mafia. That just kind of breaks my heart a little bit, knowing how the rest. Of this story goes. Hi Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi, creepy people.

0:43 Also Hi to me, Hi, Hi, Kate Wallinga. Yes, oh nailed Christal. We have Kate Wilinga joining us today from Ignorance was Bliss. That's me. Hello, that's yay. Thank you for letting me come play. Thanks for coming to play. We're very very excited to have you. I would love it if you'll tell people a little bit about your show and a little bit about your incredibly interesting background. Sure, I'm a forensic psychologist by trade, and so you know, have hung out with serial killers knowingly and on purpose.

1:27 That was the thing that has happened, and forensic psychology is not as fun or sexy in the moment is people think it is because it's a lot of waiting. It's a lot of like if you've ever done jury duty or anything to do with the court system, you understand that it's hurry up and wait. And I did a lot of that, and it's a lot of writing and it's a lot of whatever. But it's also talking to people. And I loved it. It was it was where my heart was. And then in twenty four and I broke my back. Terrible idea, don't do that, not RNDO, no zero zero stars. Absolutely, And so I spent how about four years moping like I'm like, when I set my mind to something, I do it. You know what I'm saying. And so I decided I was going to feel sorry for myself and I did it in all caps for four years. And I have four children and my I have been married for a thousand years, and my father moved in with us, and I reached a point where I was like, I don't have a life of my own anymore. Like as soon as you know, it's daylight, as soon as somebody crossed it's the threshold of my bedroom door. I'm fair game for people. And so on New Year's Day of twenty eighteen, I went up to my husband and depending on who is telling the story, I either gently tapped him on the shoulder

2:58 or right the shirt color and full of them in real close and said I'm going to start a podcast, and being a smart man, his answer was okay, yes, dear, do you need anything for me? And I'm like, I need you to leave me alone, because I just I needed a hobby that made me feel relevant and smart and competence again, and also forced them to not talk to me yes for a while, Like that was really important, and so I initially it was going to be a like true crime adjacent deal. I was going to explain to people what forensic psychology was and what it wasn't. I figured twenty episodes and i'd be done. I have recently released I think it was episode four hundred and fifty eight.

3:47 Wow, could a little while. It's been five it's five years now, a million downloads, so it seems like it's doing pretty well, you know. And after about maybe six months or a year, I decided, for various reasons that I didn't only want to do true crime. Sure, that's fair. Both because I sort of surprising. The first, the first crossover I ever did with Somebody was not planned. I was literally sitting on my couch texting with somebody and she was like, why don't we got record right now? Oh? I love that, Okay, and I the first couple of my episodes are very scripted, narrative and crimey and focused, and that's not me, Like, none of that is me.

4:37 I'm not very focused or narrative or controlled. And after each of those first early episodes, I was tired when I was done, And after this first collaboration, I was pumped up. I was like, this is fun. And so I started talking to other true crime creators and then from there it branched out to you know what, I don't want to only do crime. I want to talk to other podcasters I admire, which then became authors and actors and kind of anybody. Like I tell people I have a pod slut like Ultimate, and I. Wanted to talk to all different kinds of people, and.

5:18 So I walk in with it every time, like I don't know what we're going to talk about, because I just I feel like if I can help somebody understand what it is like to be a podcaster or a parent, or to have anxiety or like one guy that's been on my show more than once is calling me from a contraband cell phone in a maximum security prison in Mississippi, and he talks about the murder he committed, and he talks about what he's doing behind bars now. And I feel like, if I can make any of that understandable, it's not that much bigger of elite for you to understand how violent crimes or serial murder happens. And so there are times that I forget that, Like, right, normal people don't know about this stuff. So right, my job is to make normal people think. I love that, especially if I can make them a little bit uncomfortable at the time.

6:11 Right, Yeah, bring it. On, Yeah absolutely, I mean that's a little bit, I mean, on a very different I would say scale maybe is a good way to describe it. I mean, that's a little bit of what we do, at least with each other. Make each other uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when we started our show, I wanted to cover true crime, and for Cassie it was absolutely non negotiable that she wouldn't cover true crime, and she would absolutely cover the paranormal, and we basically cover each other's no no topics.

6:52 There you go. Yeah, very good. Well, we're very excited to have you with us today. And Cassie's probably going to be really mad at me, but I'd like to think that I came through with a case that is a little bit. Unique, and unfortunately for her it is quite dark. It's fine, I'm here. You didn't need to sleep tonight, right like that wasn't a thing? Okay, no, no. Over rated, all right, I'm just going to get into it like I'm as ready as i'll ever be. I know it's not going to get any easier. I'm sorry. Today we're going to talk about Lonnie Kai, who was born Lorenzo Okaruru on the Mariana Islands. She was born biologically male, but knew from a very young age that she was not a boy. On August twenty sixth of two thousand and one, when her untimely and brutal passing occurred, her legal name was still technically her dead name. Sadly, I do think the same can probably be said for a lot of victims of violence in this particular corner of the Alphabet mafia. It's a marginalized community, and I think a lot of times some of those things are maybe not as formal, and that just kind of breaks

8:25 my heart a little bit knowing how the rest of this story goes. I know, but let's talk a little bit more about Lonnie's background before we get into this too deeply. And I break Cassie's heart because she seemed to be a remarkable individual by the assessment of basically everyone around her. As I mentioned, Lonnie was born on an island. Specifically, she was born on Saipan, which is part of the Northern Mariana Islands, and that's a commonwealth of the United States. I was like, I need to know a little bit more about this. I don't really know anything about the Marianna Islands, So I.

9:10 Was gonna say, I don't even know where they're at. I don't know the trench right like that. Yes, exactly, So it's in the Western Pacific Ocean according to Britannica. So thank you for being such a good source. Oh yeah, I think digging in as much as possible to the background of someone like Lonnie really helps to inform us of her struggles and it gives her memory greater depth. All that being said, while living in Saipan, Lonnie embraced her true identity in life. Those closest to her and I found this a little bit surprising, but in fact everyone around her were quite accepting. Greg Miles, who was her uncle, was quoted by the souther Earn Poverty Law Center Intelligence report following her murder. He said that there was an open mindedness towards gender identity surrounding Lonnie and her community that was actually quite common in many of the South Pacific islands.

10:18 And I was just like, I thank Christ, you know, like I love that fucking love that for you, Lonnie. And it's just it's just a thing, you know. It's just a yeah, okay, they don't care. Yeah, you know, it's not not don't care in a so shut up way. It's a I don't care, go ahead and live your life, do. You Yes, yeah, exactly. It's very like free flowing and we just accept people as they are, and it's like you're not doing any harm to anyone, and we don't so we just don't take issue with it. And I'm just like, wow, I wonder.

10:59 What that's like, weird concept. I know, I'm moving, are we She's like, well, I'm going to follow you, So where are we going? Really, it seems that it is understood that some individuals are born in the wrong body. Again, just wild. Where do we got to go to get some of that? Oh? The South Pacific. According to him, this never presented an issue for Lonnie's family either. Greg said that many of the children in the extended family referred to Lonnie as Auntie, which really warms my heart. I'm just like, it's so precious. And Auntie is like, definitely culturally, I mean, certainly not exclusive to the South Pacific, but I mean that's a term of endearment for a beloved relative, and you know, implies a female gender identity.

12:00 And I just thought that was really sweet. That is sweet, and I mention it really just because I think that all too often people that find themselves in Lonnie's shoes don't have such a tremendously supportive village surrounding them. In nineteen ninety seven, Lonnie moved from the Mariana Islands to the mainland of the United States. She spent time in Seattle and Pullman in Washington State before moving on to Eugene, eventually settling into an area just outside of Portland, Oregon, known as Aloa.

12:41 Okay, just in his side. But whenever we hear people talking about Aloa, they're always referring to it as Aloha. And I thought, you know, I heard a couple of different news stories and like even other podcasts where they were talking about, you know, the thoughts where she was living at the time, and I was like, oh, you guys are talking about Lonnie. I'm going to forgive you. But Aloha, I know, I mean it's spelled just like a loha. I know it is locals, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean the town i'm I'm in Salem, Massachusetts, and the town next to us is spelled p e A b O d y, right, and everybody pronounces it. Yeah, like Rocky and Bowl, mister Peabody, it's it's PbD bbd.

13:37 Oh that pew. The Pbdessex Museum is here, the kids go to PBDPBDS right over the border. Like you can't, Like, I've lived here long enough that I can't not say it that way. And so now when I hear Rocky and Bulwinkle, I'm like, what if they said is that you know, but nobody looks it up. And so this is big in the news at the moment because of the Ana Walsh case and some of her effects. So not remains, but but some of the the the items were retrieved from the PbD transfer station. And I can tell right away when when I hear a podcast or a newscast start talking about it, and I'm like, oh, here it comes, and here it comes here. All you have to do is listen to a local newscast. First five seconds, go for it.

14:26 Give it a try. No, it's peabody. Okay, that's where it is. That's a tough one too, because like you look at it and you're like, yeah, I can say that it's a peabody. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I wasn't aware that that's how I mean. And now I'm like, I'm going to be doing the same thing every time I hear any of the updates and. Peavity it's p pabty. Yeah. I figured somehow you live in Massachusetts. That was going to come up. And Cass might be really mad at me for this case, but she's not going to be mad at me for long because she's going to be super excited to talk to you about your house in Salem, Massachusetts.

15:12 Yes, Oh is it home to indeed? Oh are you coming back on the show? Are you talking about it today? When are we doing this? I'm excited both, you know. She's like, it's your show, so you tell me. Yeah, I guess we should let Caitlin finish first. I guess so Aloa not Aloha. It's about ten miles west of the city of Portland. This part of town has actually been developing really rapidly in the last two decades in particular. But I would say in you know, the early two thousand's, two thousand and one specifically, you can kind of think of this as sort of a bedroom community, certainly less so these days than was back then.

16:01 Dating back to two thousand and one, I think it was definitely considered a relatively safe and a pretty quiet suburban area. Yeah you think, I think. So. I haven't given you much more than just a looa, but you're going to be able to triangulate this real quick. She's so uncomfortable. Well, I just remember being like what middle school age then, and we just walked around the town, like, you know, there wasn't anything creepy that happened that I am aware of anyway. Well, there were definitely some things, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, there are definitely some things. But I mean it's the type of area where a lot of times up until probably we were about high school age, at a certain point, then you know, you start driving. But it was very normal to just see kids walking like, you know, a mile two miles to the nearest, you know, from one campus to another, or walk into the grocery store. Everybody hangs out in the deli department at fred Meer's.

17:03 Oh yeah, I was never invited. You just got to show up. It's a bit of a walk for you. It's a long walk. Yeah. But there in Aloa, Lonnie worked as an assembly and quality control specialist for a short time, which sounds like a job I could absolutely not do at all. Cassie backed me up here. I just think of Elf when he's testing out the jack in the box thing. Yeah, a pot as well be that. I don't know.

17:45 That just sounds like a job I'm not equipped for. Co Workers recalled that she was a mild mannered and incredibly warm person. So if you are hoping that it would be less heartbreaking because she was secretly a day I have bad news on that front. Martin, who was her cousin's husband, said she was quite gifted at making others laugh when they were feeling down. Now, Lonnie was temporarily unemployed in August of two thousand and one. She lived in Hillsboro, actually a small section of neighborhood that locals know as Readville, with some of her extended family at the time along Southwest Cornelia's pass road. Everybody pause, and I realized that I'm the only one along with Kate that can see Cassie's face.

18:40 But just we're going to pause for reaction. She's I mean, I know exactly where it's at. Yeah, her discomfort is grown just for contact who lives here is highly uncomfortable right now. Yeah. On Saturday, August twenty fifth, Lonnie left home just before midnight where a pair of designer and you guys legend acid washed jeans, oh yeah, and a gray sweatshirt, white sneakers with her fingernails painted green. All I know, hashtag goals.

19:20 She was five nine and about one hundred and thirty pounds, which I am five foot and I don't think I could. Say that today. So weait is just a number, she said, yes, Yeah, her long hair was naturally dark but was tinted red at the time. It actually was really pretty oh cute. The weather at this time of year is fairly warm, but can actually cool down fairly significantly in the evening hours, so it's not unusual for someone to be wearing shorts or other summary attire during the day and then change into jeans to go out for or a late dinner or for a movie or whatever. So I don't know what Lonnie had worn earlier in the day, but I just felt like I wanted to add that for context, because at the end of August, in a lot of places you would not be caught dead in like a sweatshirt and jeans, So it's a lot cooler here if you haven't visited. Yeah, on a weekend evening like this, Lonnie usually frequented bars along southwest to Walleton Valley Highway or TV Highway as it's known in the area.

20:38 I was like, wait, I don't even know what that is. It's too long. To walatana. The GPS can never say it right either. Yeah, that's a tough one to and then if you have to spell it out for somebody on customer service like calls or something. It's unclear what her exact plans were on this evening or precisely where she was the entire evening, but we do have some information about her whereabouts on this of course, the evening in question, she was spotted at the Golden Fountain Lounge on Southwest Canyon Road in Beaverton at one point, though reportedly she didn't stay long. It's kind of unclear exactly how long she was there, which is interesting because I do think we have a pretty clear timeline of other little sections, little chunks of her whereabouts for that evening. So struck me as odd, but I'm not exactly sure why that is.

21:42 You know, maybe she. Just falls off CCTV footage and they lose her for a little bit. I'm not sure. Hm, I know, I don't like it. She walked along TV Highway in the direction of Murray Boulevard, headed towards a seven to eleven near the intersection, which I can actually picture this seven eleven. There's been a little road work done in that area, so it might look a little different, but. Yeah, yeah, I think in general, it's like I can very clearly picture it. And it's just really eerie. How much of this case I'm able to clearly visualize. It's inside that seven eleven. She is seen on surveillance cameras having a conversation with another woman at two ten am, So at this point it's probably been about two hours since she's left home. It's not a huge chunk of time, especially considering that's like not exactly a short walk from down that end of Canyon Road all the way up.

22:51 Lonnie apparently visited this seven eleven often, so this wasn't really unusual. It's just kind of more a part of the timeline. At approximately three point thirty am, near TV Highway and one hundred and forty First Avenue, she flagged down two police officers that were driving by. Normally, this might. Be where you'd suspect that this is where things began to go wrong. I feel like a. Lot of cases we've talked about that's kind of where things go sideways. Yeah, we're certainly hearing about it in the news, but not so. She had, however, flagged them down, and it was simply to ask them for a ride.

23:37 And I'm like, wait, so she flags down police officers for a ride and somehow she still ends up not surviving. This is obviously the knight that she's killed. How does that happen? Oh my goodness, did they give her a ride? They did not. I was gonna say, how why not? Well, I just won't. Cops won't. Yeah, and I understand that that tends to be a common practice. In this case, it's kind of a it's like, God, damn it, it's just a shit situation.

24:21 The way I've had often, there's a lot of times where people who end up victims of any sort of crime have had interactions with cops. And if cops perhaps focused on community support rather than perceived power and enforcement and you know, keeping people alive rather than not, that'd be pretty cool. Yeah. Unfortunately, in this particular case, there was just a literal misunderstanding and the nature of it.

25:03 And Cassie, you're going to be able to tell right away because. The language barrier. Oh, there's some confusion there. And I'm just I'm gonna all get through this next part and I'll you'll understand. I'm just like, this just kills me. It absolutely kills me. So. Officer Brandon Herring had difficulty understanding some of the conversation. Apparently because of Lonnie's accent, they believed that Lonnie wished to be driven all the way to the nearby town of Cornelius rather than literally just right down the road on Cornelius Pass Road. So they thought, you know, okay, well, we're going to offer to call a cab, or we can call a friend or a relative for you. They just were not going to be able to take her the roughly ten miles northwest of where she had flagged them down. It's a little bit longer, and it's outside of the area that they should be patrolling.

26:11 And I'm like, god, damn it. I mean, but realistically, like in most jurisdictions, yeah, police won't give you a ride ten feet down the rudd. It's I mean, that is true, and there are. Certain justifications for that, Yeah, which I. We have feelings about. I've had I've worked close I've worked in the criminal lostices system. I've worked closely with cops, and I understand that they are hampered by rules. Yeah, so maybe that's changed the rules. But we're looking at twenty one years ago, so twenty three years ago almost, So okay, all right, we were things were things are real different, but I.

26:53 Would think, yeah, and Lonnie just didn't want to spend money on a cab. And then, of course, you know, it's three thirty in the morning, and she doesn't want them to call somebody and you know, wake them up at that early morning hour. She's like, I don't want to disturb anyone else at this time of the morning, which I mean, very sweet that she didn't want to do that. But at the same time, I'm sure that nearly anyone in her life would be happy to come and pick her. Up to make sure that she made it home safely. So that's one of those tough ones where you know, you feel a little bit heartbroken for what could have been. I guess yeah, And I'm sure everyone that she knew would agree that they would go pick her ups. She sounded like she was very beloved.

27:43 Yeah, if they had realized that she was referring to Cornelia's pass road, that was a very short drive from where they stood, and I'm guessing that that night would have ended very differently. It sounds like, specifically, just the length of the drive that they assumed she wanted them to take her was kind of the deal breaker. I mean, for those of you that aren't locals. Right around this stretch of road is where Hillsboro and Beaverton roughly meet. Just a handful of years ago, I worked at a business that was situated just a couple of blocks down from this very corner, and Cornelius is a bit of a track. I mean, it's a minimum of ten miles and sadly, it's the last known location where Lonnie was seen alive. It's like, I kind of it's a tough one because I'm like, it's not that they necessarily did anything wrong, but it's like they don't always have the best tools to deal with this stuff. It's just like, fuck, it sucks.

28:51 It fucking sucks, and you know they probably feel fucking terrible. I hope so, frankly, honestly, yeah, that's not vitriol against cops. That's I hope that you had the humanity within you to feel bad. Yeah, you know, you know I feel bad when you know, if I learned sometimes that like oh I just missed an accident, yeah, or exactly see an accident happen or something, and I feel bad, like I wish I could have I'm sort of geared to help, probably really at times but there's times where it's like there's nothing I could do it on the other side of the highway, or I learned that the accident happened right after I went by, or whatever, where it's like, oh, I wish I could have you know. And so it's just that those it's those near misses that are the worst.

29:44 Yeah, I have chills right now. There's no way that either of you guys could have known this. But we literally just had that experience last night. Oh it was on the other side of the freeway because we saw a police vehicle come up behind us, and holy shit, were they hauling ass. And the cop finally got to a point where he stopped and he's on the left hand side of the freeway and I mean a very major freeway and he gets out and he hopped the median and I couldn't really clearly see what had happened on the other side, but I'm like, oh, man, it's like that you just feel for whoever, like he's rushing to try to help.

30:35 Oh, just had a feeling of dread after that. Well, you're so sensitive too, you probably picked up on someone's energy while you're passing by. Something for sure. Ye a sponge. I mean, I even feel bad when there is an accident and it seems contained, and I feel guilty passing by, right, I don't feel guilty about anything ever. Guilty is nothing anybody I wish I could help into any But like so, I have driven out there. I've been in Hillsboro and Beerton and in your is nearby. I don't I don't have permission to use their name, but a close friend of mine lives in Hillsboro, and so I've spent some time there, and I don't know where we're I do, I think, I mean, and there's a there's a faux restaurant that's amazing, that's right down that area, right, I don't.

31:34 What type of restaurant. I didn't. It's called Folking. Yeah, it's really popular. It's really good. It should be. And so anyway, but out here, you know, so, I mean, Route ninety comes all the way out here as well, and so we have the same kind of thing. And I feel bad when the accident seems like it's contained, and you know, a backs up traffic for some some space, you know, quarter mile whatever, and then there's this span where the cars stopped by the accident are just stuck. Yeah, and you get past the next exit and you see other cars coming and they don't know. Oh, I know, And I just wish I had some sort of like how can I work or something like pull off? Now, go use the bathroom, get a drink, for the love of God, like you have a terrible time, just go around, you know, but there's nothing you can do.

32:32 So yeah, no, that's true. It's a kind of a helpless feeling. It's awful. On Sunday, August twenty sixth, her body was discovered in what was described as an overgrown field by a teenage girl who was out jogging. Oh no, this is why you don't jog. I mean, it's one of many reasons not to jog. I would argue, I could produce a list, I mean as long as I am tall, which she isn't saying much. But you know, there's a lot of reasons. But yeah, that's the poor kid. I know. I mean, she was like sixteen years old. Who is going out this early in the morning on a Sunday to jog a teenager keeping.

33:21 Up track team. I must have been. It's the only explanation Lonnie's body was left there following the horrific attack that took her life. For context, this is about four miles south of Hillsboro on a stretch of Southwest Farmington Road that remains to this day actually fairly rural still almost a farmland type area near Rudbridge Road. Gotcha, that's like right by the high school too, right? Or is it a little bit further away. No, it's very close. It's I mean, for Hillsboro kids, it's basically walking distance to the high school from there. Yeah, her body was left hidden just beyond the tree line. Lonnie was beaten really severely. Her cause of death was blunt force trauma to the head and face, likely inflicted with a blunt instrument of some kind. They suspect maybe a jack or a tire iron, which is just horrific because it's kind of a weapon of opportunity.

34:35 I would think. This was another topic that her uncle, Greg Miles, spoke to the intelligence report about, stating that some of her fingertips had been cut off what and that her face had been virtually smashed and were. They trying to like hide the identity or something? You know, It's it seems like that might have. Well, he definitely felt like it was a crime that had definitely been committed in a rage, and there definitely was sort of some speculation that the removal of some of Lonnie's fingertips by her killer could have been either an expression of rage, but also some suspected it may have also been an effort to.

35:28 Thwart her identification. Yeah, but if you just remove some of them, I guess it doesn't really that doesn't really make sense. I don't know. Ugh, Yeah, I mean, I'm not really sure what to make of that. Was there a sexual element to it? There was not, and that was something. That's what I wonder is did they disc because there could be a sexual element to crime without sex happening. Yeah, absolutely, And in. Which case you may opt not to get involved with the genitalia in any way, you know, the genital region, the chest reasion, you may opt not to do that.

36:10 But if it's rage, if it was I thought I was picking a girl up, you know, and this isn't a girl with that kind of attitude, And now what do you attack to remove someone's identity? If you're going to leave the gentally intact, you know, then maybe it wasn't so much the finger prints as the fingernails. And you know, that's an interesting point because I thought, you know, with the painted nails, I mean, that doesn't seem like much of a stretch, but it's it is kind of odd because again it's not necessarily all of the fingertips. But to me, that kind of makes sense.

36:53 You know, It's just it feels like, you know, removing aspects of somebody's identity, including removing aspects of someone's femininity. Yeah, and ultimately, I think if nothing else, this really comes down to a level of sort of devaluing someone and it's I mean, what I would think of as desecration, and. I mean, that's just it's heartbreaking. How old is she twenty eight. So she's a little bit older than I am then and because I was twenty four, I turned twenty four in two thousand and one. And that's that's a that's a time where we still used words like transvestite and cross streussure, but it was no longer a pejorative, like it wasn't name calling as much. So it was like it was it was sort of on the scene, but the idea of being fully transgender was not something that was super common, and it was still diagnosed civilism mental illness.

38:10 Oh was it a So? I graduated with my doctorate in two thousand and five and a classmate of mine did her dissertation on gender identity disorder as it was called then, Oh wow, And I mean, to her credit, it was about how, hey, let's not call this a disorder. She's like, we don't. She's like, maybe we could not. And it is no longer. You know, since then, the manual with which we diagnosed people has been updated and that's been taken out. But you know, it was pretty heavily pasthologized.

39:02 You know. In Massachusetts, I worked in a locked state psychiatric hospital, which is sort of long term stay sort of things. And one of my patients whom I can't name, but she was the first person in Massachusetts to my knowledge, who had spent time incarcerated in both men in women's facilities because she was interesting assigned mail at birth, and so after the first crimes that she committed, she was sort of automatically placed in a men's prison. And to their credit, first of all, sexual assault is not as common in prison as people think it is. But secondly, to their credit, they did acknowledge her safety risks and keep her in solitary. But the flip side to solitary, is it solitary.

40:03 Right exactly? That takes on someone's mental health. It's so it's sort of a do you want to go crazy or do you want to die? Like those were sort of choices that you're given. There's is not an entirely great set of choices. But so the second time or a subsequent time, I can't say second time, but a subsequent time that she was arrested, she was placed in a women's facility, and that was considered at the time. So this would have been three two thousand and four, was before I graduated. I was doing an internship, and at the time it was considered pretty progressive to place it, like sit with me for a second, to place a woman in a woman's prism right right, Yeah.

40:50 But she also then ended up in the psychiatric hospital because life had not been kind to her. You had some legitimate mental illnesses, as you know, to do it. Yeah, and then it was just a matter of like, so the hospitals are mixed gender here and they try to put usually it's two people pull room, same sex, but they will try to put people in solo rooms if there's any sort of risk of either're acting out or being acted out of Han and so she had a solo room.

41:30 And I think that's I mean, it's a tough situation because of course, you know a lot of those facilities. I mean, if you're nearing capacity or already ad or over capacity some of those things, that it can be so difficult to accommodate and make sure that that it has to be I mean, it just has to be. Oh back to the the fingers. The fingers, Okay. Yeah, but obviously it didn't pan out. If they were trying to thwart identification, that was not going to work.

42:13 But obviously it's just a very brutal act. I mean, regardless of why you're doing that, that is just an act of brutality against another human that I would hope that none of us can understand, I mean in a million. Years, except maybe the psychologist. Understand maybe has based on what we know Ye's different, right, sure, well based on what me know that But that's part of why I like I My job would often be to sit down and ask somebody, like I've had conversations that evolve things like, literally, why did you try and remove the fingerstips like, and you have to ask those questions with a fairly.

42:58 Straight face, acts like I am not saying the words that I am about to say, but I'm going to ask you how many times did you hit it with the tire iron like? And you have to you have to sort of check your own morality at the door, m And I'm going to enter you your world, and I'm going to ask you questions and I'm going to do my best to understand. And now the trick is you you do your best to understand the person, but then you pick your own morality back up as you leave the room again, of course, get back into your own head because I think it's I know it's possible. I've watched colleagues break because they they it starts to make too much sense.

43:45 To them, right, I mean, it's breaking down who they are. And that's that's the thing you have to sort of consciously. I'm going to check my logic and check my rationality at the door, and I'm going to come in and I'm going to enter your world. But then when let me leave, your world stays here and I'm going home. Yeah, goodbye forever, Well until tomorrow yeah or yeah, Oh. My goodness, what'd I say every time I leave here? Goodbye forever. Till next week? You know what I mean? That side of things I think is so interesting and really thinking about how you approach those things. And my partner does interrogation as part of his career field, and I have learned a lot from him in that regard.

44:41 I know that I don't ever want to play poker for money with either of you. Not a chance in hell, not a snowflakes chance in hell. I don't stand a chance. I'm just like way too transparent and I'm an oversharer. It's I can't help myself. This is one that I I'm curious what you make of this. Oddly, it was said that Lonnie didn't have broken fingernails, so it didn't seem like she had much of an opportunity to put up a fight, So it's a little bit unclear and without actually pulling up necessarily like an autopsy report.

45:31 And to be honest, I you know. I as much as the details of it are so interesting for many of us, you know that are interested in true crime, and you know we care about these cases. For a menagerie of reasons. I was like, I just don't know if I have it in me to get into the nitty gritty of like fingertip. Can you quantify that for me? But I'm curious from your perspective if somebody has. Removed part of. The fingertip or the entirety of a fingertip, but not on every finger.

46:14 So let's god, this is terrible. That's for argument's sake. It's probably done postwartem would be my guess. Well, I mean I would think so, you know. And that if somebody's coming at you with a tire iron and it's funny that it's a tire, it's not funny. Nothing's funny. Yeah, yeah, huorious, it's not funny. Ha ha. So on December twenty sixth, twenty twenty two, happens to be my husband's birthday, and which we don't celebrate in December because the twenty six is a crappy time to have a birthday frankly, but you know, still, we had we had dinner, red cupcakes. That was great, and I was about to head upstairs to go to bed to the evening and I, by the way, I am deaf mostly I hear about what twenty five percent of what normal people hear. And so I'm just sort of doing my hang and you know, good, I head an upstairs and my husband stops and he's like, can you hear that?

47:11 And I'm like, what do you think? What are you saying? He's like, he said, then he said, I think someone just hit the house. Which you have to understand that my house is it's away from the street a little bit, but it's up on a little hill, so nobody's going to hit the house with like, what do you But I'm like, I don't know. But as I said, like, I'm geared towards like getting involved and stepping in, and so I just walked out on my front porch and he's like, what are you doing? You know? But I'm like, if you think something's going on, And what's going on is across the street one over there's a house that we had been referring to as the meth House, which you know, Salem's not a super methy place like in general, but this one house has had a lot of turnover in the past year, and so we've started referring to it as the meth house. Although it turns out we were probably accurate. And so this young gentleman is screaming. He's standing outside and he's screaming at the occupants of the house, and he's holding.

48:25 A tire iron. Oh my god. And I'm like, and I just I my question, which often will de escalate things. One would hope, you know, you don't do the hey, what's going on? That kind of thing, because that can be kind of aggressive, and stead I was like, hey, are you safe? Oh? Are you safe? Do you know? Is there something that I can help you with right now? Are you safe? And and he did come down for a second. He sort of lowered the weapon and he he started sort of ranting to me about they have my they have my stuff in the house, and and I was like, okay, okay, I can't like, you can't go in my house. And I don't like, are you but are you safe? Do you need me to call anybody? That's what I can do for you right now? Call anything? And he was like no, I'll just get at myself. And he turns around and he like bolts up their front steps with the tire iron and breaks the plate glass window. Oh my gosh, that was pretty much my reaction. And so by by through the process of this. As soon as he turns around and says, no, I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna get at myself. I get on the phone and I'm calling nine one one. So I'm the caller on nine one one while he's breaking the glass.

49:50 Oh my goodness. And so I can tell you that the tire iron is suddenly a lot longer of an instrument. The thing about it is that it's narrow and right, you know, especially if you're sort of holding the hook end in swinging with the other one. It'd be easy to hit somebody and kill them. You know, you knock them out before and they're not you know, it's done. It's not like like like a physical assault or like a baseball vat or something. You get your hands up and now the fingernails can break. That makes a lot of sense.

50:31 You know, a tireron, you can you can hit somebody and kind of skip the hand part altogether, you know, and just go directly to the you know, the tire iron. It's connected to the headbone. I think that's how the song goes, right, like, that's that's how it goes. And like the removal of fingertips or the removal of any body part at all generally is not something that is done on a living victim once in a great while. Aile Sylvia li Likens is an example of a torture case that that wish she lived for an extended amount of time with various tortures to her body. But by and large, that kind of disfigurement and and dehumanization happens after the death. No, and and frankly I hope.

51:28 I mean, yeah, I think we all do. You know? And so because I look after I'm dead, I don't care right like anymore, Like I I reserve the right to haunt your dreams and if I have to, But that you know, when once once you're beyond feeling, of course, usually that's when that's when you know it's a it's sort of a panicked, sloppy clean up kind of my mindset to do those sorts of things. Yeah, I have a question. I don't know if you're going to get into it. Did were the fingers tips there or did they take them?

52:11 You know, that's another I'm not sure. It's unclear. It does sound like she was killed in one place and her body was discovered in another. Right that would make sense, Okay. The thing that it's like and it's I'm I feel like this is probably just to be able to convey the question that I have about the fingertips, like in light of the full picture of the forensic evidence at least that without doing a FOIA request of some sort that you know I have. It's almost like the way I would have to word it, it's like it's too graphic and I don't want to sensationalize in that way with this case. But I'm very curious about in the instance where they've removed maybe some of the fingertips, and.

53:18 I'm thinking. It's so hard not knowing exactly like how much of the fingertip did they actually like you were saying, you know, they cut off the entire finger, you know, up to kind of that first knuckle basically, and they've taken the nails. Like. What is the what is the what's the purpose otherwise? Like I mean, it's not thwarting the identification unless you take all of them. So I mean, is that just about mutilation? Like I mean, it could be as simple as oh shit, this is harder than I thought it was going to be.

54:00 Way like that happens a lot where people do they commit a crime, they think I'm going to obliterate this person's identity and get away, and this usually that's an indication that there's a connection between victim and perpetrator, because otherwise why do you care? Right right? Like, I don't care if I've killed a stranger. I don't care if you figure out who they are, because there's no connection between us. But if I kill somebody, I know I've got you know, on a Walsh case, right like, there's motivation to try and obscure the identity and the location because there's a clear connection between on A Walls and Bryan Walsh as a parallel, and so that that would make me wonder, like, why do you need to remove this person's identity? Are they a stand in for somebody in your life? That's a possibility, and now you're mad at them for not actually being that stand in or do you know them? And you're trying to make sure that you have time to get away. And the thing about that is that sometimes people in the process of trying to hide their crime trying to like, look, I don't want to say this in a positive way, but I don't know how else to say it is that dismemberment is work.

55:26 I mean, but it is, though, do you know, like it's work and it takes time. And if you're saying that she was last seen alive at three point thirty approximately in the morning, yeah, then was found at six am around that time, that's not a ton of time. You know. It takes time to pick someone up, It takes time to beat them to death, it takes time to try and obscure their identity, then it takes time to move the body, and you know, sun is starting to come up, You're starting to really panic because you definitely don't want to be seen in daylight.

56:06 You don want your car to be seen, and so you quit. And that makes a lot of sense for me. It's just been really bothersome because it's like this feels very incomplete, and I think maybe that's a particularly for someone who's I mean, I'm very interested in this, but I'm obviously not an expert, and just coming from a layman's perspective, you know, you do kind of think like, well, they're going to do it this way or they're going to do that, and it's like, well, they probably thought they were going to do it this way or you know whatever, but the reality of it, and so I mean, it's just an interesting thing to keep in mind that It's like the reality of the situation is that it takes time.

56:56 I mean, thank god it does, thank God for real. And I mean, and this is I am unabashedly against gun ownership because guns don't take time. Right, you can do you can wreak. Incredible havoc really fast with that and other methods. You can kill people with all kinds of things, but they take longer. Another thing that I was just thinking of is if if she was transported from one place to another, I would need to know, like were the fingertips cut cleanly or where they may be broken off by slamming them in the trunk.

57:39 And that's a great question. I mean, it's one of those things where it almost am like. I again, hope that, honestly hope that because the more extreme the behavior, whether the victim is still alive or post mortem, the more extreme the behavior. Is this just removing body parts implies a really disordered mind. And right, that's scary. It is scary, Oh god, man. I mean, we graduated in two thousand and seven from a high school that. I mean, for all intents and purposes, it's not actual walking distance from this spot. But I remember, I mean really vaguely, but I remember hearing about this case.

58:32 So did they ever find the perpetrator? What do you think? It's not sounding good? No, No, I wish. I mean, it's one of those cases because especially, like you say, some of these details really inform us as far as like, Wow, this is someone that we should be extremely fearful of, Like as a community, we should be very invested in finding this perpetrator. That's horrifying. Still, there was little evidence available at the scene. What that told investigators at the time was that she had been murdered elsewhere and her body was only disposed of afterward where it had been found. Her time of death was estimated to be somewhere between the hours of three point thirty and five am. This window leaves just about a ninety minute period after she interacted with the police officers on TV Highway, during which she was brutally attacked and murdered.

59:41 Her body was moved, I mean, all of the things that you mentioned. It's the location where her body was found was approximately nine miles away from where the police had encountered her. This also gave them another very important piece of the puzzle, because there there was literally no way that she could have traveled that far on foot in that time. She just couldn't. I mean, maybe an Olympic sprinter, I dot it. No, Well, she wasn't headed that direction, was she. No, that wasn't her goal to get over in that area.

1:00:21 No, I mean this is all like such a if you think about it, like a small circle of geographic locations. But no, I mean it's not really. It's certainly way overshooting where she lived at the time. Sexual assault and robbery were both ruled unlikely motives fairly early on. The medical examiner did not produce any findings indicating that there were signs of recent sexual activity. There was also still cash on her person when the body was discovered. Sadly, this final fatal act was not the only instance in which Lonnie had encountered violence or bigotry. She had actually endured two other assaults since moving to the Portland area, neither of which were reported to law enforcement. Her family stated that she just honestly didn't believe anything would or could be done. Washington County Sheriff's detective Mike O'Connell has long speculated that her gender identity may have played a role in her death, as it had with another previous to put it extremely mildly, a bad date encounter, she had been forced out of her dates vehicle after he realized her biological or anatomical gender. This is literally exactly

1:01:56 what you mentioned, this exact example, Kate, And in any case, official statements released by law enforcement authorities indicate that they believe this to be the case, that she was specifically targeted because of her gender identity. So kind of makes me lean towards that the fingers were you know, like you said, more than likely post mortem, but that they were taken intentionally. I don't have a lot to go on in a case. Where there's not an instance of sexual assault, and like, I don't know what else they would be basing that on, but seems reasonable.

1:02:44 I think were they just basing it off of her past encounters? I mean in that I suppose could be, or maybe they know something else that well I didn't get put out. Yeah, of course we know that in so many cases that happens, they have to hold certain details back because only one person's going to know those details, but because obviously this was all probably starting to appear that it might shape up nice. And neat somehow, now I have bad news. So Lonnie's case would sadly take a backseat to other world news as world events rapidly change the landscape not only for Americans, but in some sense kind of for people all over the world. A public rally to raise awareness of the crime committed by Lonnie's killer was scheduled to take place a few weeks following her murder. The notice was published in the Am edition of newspapers on Tuesday, September eleventh of two thousand and one.

1:03:58 Sit Yeah. Her memorial service was held in October, before the crime would end up fading into relative obscurity. Basic Rights Oregon and other LGBTQ organizations have made efforts to keep Lonnie's story alive in the hopes that the pursuit of justice would not prove fruitless. Roe Thorpe, the executive director of Basic Rights Oregon, said in two thousand and two that prejudice against the trans population dehumanizes. In two thousand and three, Basic Rights Oregon introduced SB one thousand to the Oregon State Senate hoping to add gender identity under hate crime laws, specifically citing Lonnie's case, with the further hope of possibly getting the case additional coverage and or funding through local police or I mean, how maybe if they could swing it even the FBI. The bill was killed in committee by Karen Menis Manass. I know you're shocked. She's a Republican, just you know, the party that callously disregards and blatantly victimizes minorities.

1:05:19 It's fine. In two thousand and. Five, she would also oppose civil unions for same sex couples because it's not enough to allow them to be beaten or murdered, but they shouldn't be allowed to have the same privileges as the rest of Oregon's god fearing couples. Ultimately, s B one thousand would be passed, but it would be missing critical protections that were considered critical can I say again critical to the bill. Although some hailed it as a success, this failure seemed to mean that Lonnie's case, and potentially countless others like it, would remain labeled as bias based crime.

1:06:02 Really, I had no idea that that wouldn't be a hate crime. Yeah. Wow, so it could not technically be labeled a hate crime, which meant that far fewer people would ever even hear about the case. It's a confusing topic that I've kind of done my best to give you, guys, like the bullet points, because it's a lot of it's a lot of back and forth in the legislature and different aspects of our government that I have a very cursory understanding of. I'm like, I have a podcast and a master's degree, and I feel stupid. Since then Governor Kate Brown are currently exiting. Governor signed House Bill thirty forty one, which clarified existing anti discrimination protection by adding gender identity to all Oregon laws that use sexual orientation in the text of the law, which they are sometimes different things, guys.

1:07:13 This legislation expanded on the work of the Attorney General's Hate Crimes Task Force via Senate Bill five seven seven, which created a protected class for gender identity and Oregon in does anyone want to guess what year? Twenty twenty two, twenty nineteen, not a lot better? Wow, that took a while. Yeah, took a minute. But of course, bigotry in nearly any form hasn't really gone anywhere. Detective O'Connell received a call back in two thousand and nine questioning why he was wasting so much time on this case, and he was disgusted. And though members of the Washington County Sheriff's Department made statements to the press over the next several years, law enforcement was unable to develop any new leads, and without much evidence to go on, it hasn't been easy. As I wrote my notes, I'm stunned to learn that Lnnie was believed to be the first fatality victim of a hate crime in Washington County. Her case is included in the playing cards distributed to local jails or prisons, and she is the five of Hearts. Another thing worth noting is that I have not been able to verify whether there is

1:08:44 still a four thousand dollars reward for information leading to the arrest of her killer. But if you have information, please reach out to law enforcement. Obviously we'll include that in the show notes. Keep that in mind as I share this next part of the case. I actually reached out to a media representative for Washington County for the Sheriff's Department, as well as crime stoppers who had previously offered reward money, and neither of them were able to get back to me as far as whether or not there's still a reward. In two thousand and two, investigators revealed that two men had been seen near the crime scene near Farmington Road. They'd been driving a small to mid size suv. A man driving east on Farmington Road past the vehicle as it was backing up the dirt road that Lonnie was found on. One of the men was in the vehicle and one was weaving animatedly in the glare of.

1:09:51 The headlights of the vehicle. These two individuals are believed to have been disposing of Lonnie's body. An informant offered a tip to law enforcement and exchanged in exchange for a reduced sentence. This led them to a vehicle they believed to be used to dispose of Lannie's body. However, this turned out to be a dead end. And that's literally it, that is all. She wrote. Wow, well that's disappointing.

1:10:31 Oh god, Okay, I hate it when I make myself feel things. I'm a fucking monster. It's just the the part about like having somebody call the detective it's working on a cold case and say like why are you wasting type? I know that's gross, Like why would you go out of your way to even say that? Like Jesus Christ, don't you have to buy grocery? Reason ship? Like where are you finding the time? You know? Like do you think it was possibly the murderer? I mean, who knows. I don't know. I think sometimes people want attention.

1:11:14 And whether it's because they actually commit that crime or they're just fucking hot garbage sauce trash people, I don't know. But oh god, it makes me really said, I don't always cry when we record. This isn't actually coming. Back, so it's fun. She doesn't know any better. I know, it's fun. Oh yeah, she's like one out of one times that I recorded with them, she was crying. So make sure it happened again. It's good.

1:11:59 Oh good, I've just had a precedent. Okay. Oh, so, I mean there's this is a really tough one to transition. But we usually do our little tarot reading and sometimes sometimes we get like a message that is a little bit hopeful about you know, a case like this it's unsolved or. We'll see I'll tell you what we got. Yeah, Well, are you ready for the tarot. All right, so we just want a little deeper insight into Lonnie's story.

1:12:42 Do you want to cut the cards or do you want me to do it? You're like, what are you? What do you feel like? I think she feels like she wants to do it. Okay, I'll do it. You're just so like connected. I feel like we got that card like three times already. What is happening? Yeah, it's the King of Pentacles in reverse. Holy shit, this is actually I didn't think this was going to work. I didn't think it made sense. It works. Every time you think it's not gonna work. The universe knows what's up. Holy fucking shit. Okay, all right, so can you see it?

1:13:25 Yes, kind of yes. So we drew the King of Pentacles and this deck is actually specifically one that I was gifted this Christmas. It's the Pacific Northwest tarot deck. So it's all perfect. Yeah, it's like native plans and animals and okay, so our keywords are security, material, success, pragmatism, stability, strength, and worldly power. And I think this makes a lot of sense when we talk about the description of the card. Just wait for it. Okay. In many decks This king sits on a throne and wears rich garments and a crown. Sometimes he appears with a bull h symbol of strength, virility, and tenacity.

1:14:21 I'm thinking like. Bowl like strength, virility. Let's just that it's too weird. In a reading, he may represent an actual person, in which case he's usually a mature man who exercises worldly power and authority. We do it in the reverse. The King of Pentacles in reverse indicates sluggishness, delays, and or obstacles to material success. Sometimes it shows low energy or insecurity. You feel stuck, but you don't have the drive to get you out of your rut. If the card represents an actual person, he may be mercenary, course, dull, witted, or even corrupt.

1:15:09 Huh sounds kind of like the person who might have done it or the system. Yeah, that too, It could be a lot of dull things. Well, I mean mercenary, jesus, I mean that's a what does that mean? That's dark wanting stuff? Oh okay, Well, and I think of mercenary as. Like a mercenary in like the militant sense too. Yeah, yeah, will need to hurt you for stuff. Yeah, I mean I don't like that and course, my god.

1:15:50 I mean, which would fit well with the concept of someone willing to assault based on perceived at endy, Yeah, you're not who I thought you were in a literal biological sense, and so I'm going to be eating death with a tire iron that's pretty coarse, you know. Opting not to take the cash kind of all that says to me is that the cash may have been blood stained. I mean, that's a really valid point. And so you don't want to want to back into the seven to eleven, right and have them be like, hey, dude, I can't help but notice that you're paying with money that's actively bloody. Sup with that? So you know, beatings like usually if you're if you're going to rob somebody.

1:16:45 You do that first, right, that's. And then you you beat them, so it doesn't sound like robbery was the motive, and then they're not going to take the money afterwards because it probably wasn't in the best condition. That's contaminated. Yeah, well, I hate all of that. What happens helpful message that you were well. But that's what say the car does kind of reflect. Yeah, I think more the reverse side, you know, the reverse side more sort of toward. What kind of mindset do you need to do something like this is you need to be pretty coarse and dehumanizing and you know, mercenary, maybe not wanting the cash, but wanting something and willing to hurt to get it. That's not that's not far out of the league from what you've been talking about.

1:17:40 Oh my gosh, that I mean, that was so well put. I honestly have. Today perfect. Yeah it was entirely not perfect, but it was. Yeah, imperfection is perfect. Yeah. All right, Well, thanks for coming on. It was so fun. I can wait for you to come back. Yeah. So, for all of you that are listening, if you have any true crime or paranormal stories that you want us to share, maybe with the whole Pacific Northwest. Yes, we would love to read them on the pod. Yes we will read them out.

1:18:22 Loud, not just in our heads. Yes, they don't have to be from the Pacific Northwest. If you would like to share, email us at PNW hauntsand Homicides at gmail dot com. It's all spelled out, no special characters, super duper EASYPC. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook. Same thing as the email at P ANDW. Hanson homicides all spelled out, no special characters. Please also rate and review us on whatever platform you're listening to, and check out our stories on social media because our mein game is hot. Agreed and if you agree like Caitlin, you can also find us on Patreon and support the show bitchin.

1:19:14 I had surgery yesterday, which I get it stupid that I'm sitting at my desk now, but it's not like it's a high maintenance kind of like I'm just sitting here. Might as well do something fun instead of moping, which I did all day, you know, like like you said good at them, and so yesterday I'm literally sitting in the waiting room at the at the hospital. I'm already they've already given like they literally hand out atavan and she walk in the door. Where is this? I'm like, this is a great idea, Like you just double fish in them, you know. So, and apparently a thing that I do when I have adavanas I invite people on my show. So it's like sitting in the way, I'm a little bit stone inviting people on my podcast.

1:20:02 And I was like, technology is wonderful. Nature is returning to the normal. You know, did anyone say yes, absolutely, go Oh my goodness. Okay, well stay tuned for that because we are gonna have some really interesting guests coming up on your. Show for me as well. Really no kidding. Hey, listen, sometimes good things come out of a weird medical trip. Apparently, no one give any of that to Caitlin. She's done enough.