June 18, 2026

Loni Kai Okaruru: Washington County's Unsolved Hate Crime

Loni Kai Okaruru: Washington County's Unsolved Hate Crime
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In honor of Pride Month, we're resharing this very important unsolved murder. 🌈 We'll see you next Thursday!

Loni Kai was a vibrant, friendly, well-liked young woman. She has also graced the 5 of Hearts in a cold case deck of cards. Loni was born Lorenzo Okoruru in the Mariana islands, but by 2001 she was living in the Hillsboro/Aloha area of Oregon with some of her extended family that lovingly supported her whole heartedly. This one hits close to home, quite literally. On August 26th as she tried to make her way home in the early morning hours after a fun night out on the town the unthinkable would happen. Across the country, tragedy would strike again just a few days later and though she’s not been forgotten by those that loved her, Loni’s case made very little progress. All these years later Loni’s family still have no answers and have yet to see justice done for the heinous crime.

We may not have solved the case but we have to believe that it’s never too late. If you have any information about this case, please reach out to the Washington County Sheriff’s Office at (503) 846-2500 or call Crime Stoppers Oregon (503) 823-4357.

In loving memory of Kate Wallinga, the host of Ignorance was Bliss. We were so lucky to have her unique perspective as a forensic psychologist.

Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Spreaker, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts. Sources

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Today we're going to talk about Lonnie Kai, who was

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born Lorenzo Okaruru. She was born biologically male, but knew

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from a very young age that she was not a boy.

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On August twenty six of two thousand and one, when

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her untimely and brutal passing occurred, her legal name was

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still technically her dead name. I do think the same

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can probably be said for a lot of victims of

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violence in this particular corner of the Alphabet mafia. That

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just kind of breaks my heart a little bit, knowing

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how the rest.

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Of this story goes. Hi Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi, creepy people.

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Also Hi to me, Hi, Hi, Kate Wallinga. Yes, oh

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nailed Christal.

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We have Kate Wilinga joining us today from Ignorance was Bliss.

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That's me. Hello, that's yay. Thank you for letting me

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come play.

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Thanks for coming to play. We're very very excited to

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have you. I would love it if you'll tell people

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a little bit about your show and a little bit

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about your incredibly interesting background.

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Sure, I'm a forensic psychologist by trade, and so you know,

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have hung out with serial killers knowingly and on purpose.

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That was the thing that has happened, and forensic psychology

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is not as fun or sexy in the moment is

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people think it is because it's a lot of waiting.

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It's a lot of like if you've ever done jury

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duty or anything to do with the court system, you

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understand that it's hurry up and wait. And I did

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a lot of that, and it's a lot of writing

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and it's a lot of whatever. But it's also talking

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to people. And I loved it. It was it was

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where my heart was. And then in twenty four and

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I broke my back. Terrible idea, don't do that, not RNDO,

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no zero zero stars. Absolutely, And so I spent how

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about four years moping like I'm like, when I set

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my mind to something, I do it. You know what

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I'm saying. And so I decided I was going to

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feel sorry for myself and I did it in all

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caps for four years. And I have four children and

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my I have been married for a thousand years, and

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my father moved in with us, and I reached a

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point where I was like, I don't have a life

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of my own anymore. Like as soon as you know,

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it's daylight, as soon as somebody crossed it's the threshold

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of my bedroom door. I'm fair game for people. And

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so on New Year's Day of twenty eighteen, I went

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up to my husband and depending on who is telling

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the story, I either gently tapped him on the shoulder

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or right the shirt color and full of them in

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real close and said I'm going to start a podcast,

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and being a smart man, his answer was okay, yes, dear,

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do you need anything for me? And I'm like, I

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need you to leave me alone, because I just I

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needed a hobby that made me feel relevant and smart

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and competence again, and also forced them to not talk

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to me yes for a while, Like that was really important,

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and so I initially it was going to be a

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like true crime adjacent deal. I was going to explain

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to people what forensic psychology was and what it wasn't.

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I figured twenty episodes and i'd be done. I have

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recently released I think it was episode four hundred and

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fifty eight.

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Wow, could a little while.

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It's been five it's five years now, a million downloads,

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so it seems like it's doing pretty well, you know.

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And after about maybe six months or a year, I decided,

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for various reasons that I didn't only want to do

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true crime.

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Sure, that's fair.

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Both because I sort of surprising. The first, the first

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crossover I ever did with Somebody was not planned. I

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was literally sitting on my couch texting with somebody and

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she was like, why don't we got record right now?

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Oh?

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I love that, Okay, and I the first couple of

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my episodes are very scripted, narrative and crimey and focused,

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and that's not me, Like, none of that is me.

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I'm not very focused or narrative or controlled. And after

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each of those first early episodes, I was tired when

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I was done, And after this first collaboration, I was

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pumped up. I was like, this is fun. And so

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I started talking to other true crime creators and then

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from there it branched out to you know what, I

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don't want to only do crime. I want to talk

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to other podcasters I admire, which then became authors and

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actors and kind of anybody. Like I tell people I

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have a pod slut like Ultimate, and I.

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Wanted to talk to all different kinds of people, and.

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So I walk in with it every time, like I

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don't know what we're going to talk about, because I

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just I feel like if I can help somebody understand

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what it is like to be a podcaster or a parent,

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or to have anxiety or like one guy that's been

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on my show more than once is calling me from

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a contraband cell phone in a maximum security prison in Mississippi,

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and he talks about the murder he committed, and he

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talks about what he's doing behind bars now. And I

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feel like, if I can make any of that understandable,

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it's not that much bigger of elite for you to

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understand how violent crimes or serial murder happens. And so

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there are times that I forget that, Like, right, normal

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people don't know about this stuff. So right, my job

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is to make normal people think. I love that, especially

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if I can make them a little bit uncomfortable at

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the time.

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Right, Yeah, bring it.

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On, Yeah absolutely, I mean that's a little bit, I mean,

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on a very different I would say scale maybe is

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a good way to describe it.

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I mean, that's a little bit of what we do,

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at least with each other.

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Make each other uncomfortable.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Because when we started our show, I wanted to cover

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true crime, and for Cassie it was absolutely non negotiable

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that she wouldn't cover true crime, and she would absolutely

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cover the paranormal, and we basically cover each other's no

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no topics.

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There you go.

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Yeah, very good. Well, we're very excited to have you

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with us today. And Cassie's probably going to be really

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mad at me, but I'd like to think that I

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came through with a case that is a little bit.

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Unique, and unfortunately for her it is quite dark.

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It's fine, I'm here.

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You didn't need to sleep tonight, right like that wasn't

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a thing? Okay, no, no.

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Over rated, all right, I'm just going to get into

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it like I'm as ready as i'll ever be.

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I know it's not going to get any easier. I'm sorry.

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Today we're going to talk about Lonnie Kai, who was

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born Lorenzo Okaruru on the Mariana Islands. She was born

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biologically male, but knew from a very young age that

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she was not a boy. On August twenty sixth of

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two thousand and one, when her untimely and brutal passing occurred,

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her legal name was still technically her dead name. Sadly,

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I do think the same can probably be said for

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a lot of victims of violence in this particular corner

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of the Alphabet mafia. It's a marginalized community, and I

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think a lot of times some of those things are

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maybe not as formal, and that just kind of breaks

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my heart a little bit knowing how the rest of

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this story goes. I know, but let's talk a little

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bit more about Lonnie's background before we get into this

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too deeply. And I break Cassie's heart because she seemed

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to be a remarkable individual by the assessment of basically

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everyone around her. As I mentioned, Lonnie was born on

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an island. Specifically, she was born on Saipan, which is

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part of the Northern Mariana Islands, and that's a commonwealth

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of the United States. I was like, I need to

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know a little bit more about this. I don't really

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know anything about the Marianna Islands, So I.

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Was gonna say, I don't even know where they're at.

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I don't know the trench right like that.

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Yes, exactly, So it's in the Western Pacific Ocean according

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to Britannica. So thank you for being such a good source.

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Oh yeah, I think digging in as much as possible

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to the background of someone like Lonnie really helps to

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inform us of her struggles and it gives her memory

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greater depth. All that being said, while living in Saipan,

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Lonnie embraced her true identity in life. Those closest to

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her and I found this a little bit surprising, but

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in fact everyone around her were quite accepting. Greg Miles,

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who was her uncle, was quoted by the souther Earn

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Poverty Law Center Intelligence report following her murder. He said

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that there was an open mindedness towards gender identity surrounding

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Lonnie and her community that was actually quite common in

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many of the South Pacific islands.

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And I was just like, I thank Christ, you know,

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like I love that fucking love that for you, Lonnie.

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And it's just it's just a thing, you know. It's

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just a yeah, okay, they don't care. Yeah, you know,

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it's not not don't care in a so shut up way.

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It's a I don't care, go ahead and live your life, do.

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You Yes, yeah, exactly.

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It's very like free flowing and we just accept people

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as they are, and it's like you're not doing any

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harm to anyone, and we don't so we just don't

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take issue with it. And I'm just like, wow, I wonder.

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What that's like, weird concept.

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I know, I'm moving, are we She's like, well, I'm

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going to follow you, So where are we going? Really,

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it seems that it is understood that some individuals are

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born in the wrong body.

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Again, just wild. Where do we got to go to

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get some of that? Oh? The South Pacific.

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According to him, this never presented an issue for Lonnie's

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family either. Greg said that many of the children in

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the extended family referred to Lonnie as Auntie, which really

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warms my heart. I'm just like, it's so precious. And

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Auntie is like, definitely culturally, I mean, certainly not exclusive

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to the South Pacific, but I mean that's a term

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of endearment for a beloved relative, and you know, implies

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a female gender identity.

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And I just thought that was really sweet.

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That is sweet, and I mention it really just because

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I think that all too often people that find themselves

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in Lonnie's shoes don't have such a tremendously supportive village

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surrounding them. In nineteen ninety seven, Lonnie moved from the

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Mariana Islands to the mainland of the United States. She

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spent time in Seattle and Pullman in Washington State before

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moving on to Eugene, eventually settling into an area just

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outside of Portland, Oregon, known as Aloa.

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Okay, just in his side.

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But whenever we hear people talking about Aloa, they're always

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referring to it as Aloha. And I thought, you know,

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I heard a couple of different news stories and like

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even other podcasts where they were talking about, you know,

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the thoughts where she was living at the time, and

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I was like, oh, you guys are talking about Lonnie.

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I'm going to forgive you.

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But Aloha, I know, I mean it's spelled just like

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a loha.

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I know it is locals, Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah, I mean the town i'm I'm in Salem, Massachusetts,

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and the town next to us is spelled p e

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A b O d y, right, and everybody pronounces it. Yeah,

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like Rocky and Bowl, mister Peabody, it's it's PbD bbd.

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Oh that pew.

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The Pbdessex Museum is here, the kids go to PBDPBDS

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right over the border. Like you can't, Like, I've lived

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here long enough that I can't not say it that way.

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And so now when I hear Rocky and Bulwinkle, I'm like,

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what if they said is that you know, but nobody

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looks it up. And so this is big in the

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news at the moment because of the Ana Walsh case

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and some of her effects. So not remains, but but

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some of the the the items were retrieved from the

229
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:15.759
PbD transfer station. And I can tell right away when

230
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:18.240
when I hear a podcast or a newscast start talking

231
00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:20.639
about it, and I'm like, oh, here it comes, and

232
00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:23.000
here it comes here. All you have to do is

233
00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:26.679
listen to a local newscast. First five seconds, go for it.

234
00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:28.080
Give it a try.

235
00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.000
No, it's peabody. Okay, that's where it is.

236
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:34.080
That's a tough one too, because like you look at

237
00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:36.679
it and you're like, yeah, I can say that it's

238
00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:38.080
a peabody.

239
00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:43.879
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I wasn't aware that that's how

240
00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:45.879
I mean. And now I'm like, I'm going to be

241
00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:49.320
doing the same thing every time I hear any of

242
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:50.159
the updates and.

243
00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.360
Peavity it's p pabty.

244
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:54.200
Yeah.

245
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.320
I figured somehow you live in Massachusetts.

246
00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:58.399
That was going to come up.

247
00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:01.960
And Cass might be really mad at me for this case,

248
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.159
but she's not going to be mad at me for

249
00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.679
long because she's going to be super excited to talk

250
00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.639
to you about your house in Salem, Massachusetts.

251
00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:17.080
Yes, Oh is it home to indeed? Oh are you

252
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:19.440
coming back on the show? Are you talking about it today?

253
00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:20.559
When are we doing this?

254
00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:22.639
I'm excited both, you know.

255
00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:25.360
She's like, it's your show, so you tell me.

256
00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:31.320
Yeah, I guess we should let Caitlin finish first.

257
00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:39.600
I guess so Aloa not Aloha. It's about ten miles

258
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.480
west of the city of Portland. This part of town

259
00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:46.360
has actually been developing really rapidly in the last two

260
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.159
decades in particular. But I would say in you know,

261
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.600
the early two thousand's, two thousand and one specifically, you

262
00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:55.440
can kind of think of this as sort of a

263
00:15:55.480 --> 00:16:00.679
bedroom community, certainly less so these days than was back then.

264
00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:03.240
Dating back to two thousand and one, I think it

265
00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:08.120
was definitely considered a relatively safe and a pretty quiet

266
00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:10.279
suburban area.

267
00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:11.919
Yeah you think, I think.

268
00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:12.080
So.

269
00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:15.279
I haven't given you much more than just a looa,

270
00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.720
but you're going to be able to triangulate this real quick.

271
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:20.039
She's so uncomfortable.

272
00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:23.639
Well, I just remember being like what middle school age then,

273
00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.360
and we just walked around the town, like, you know,

274
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.720
there wasn't anything creepy that happened that I am aware

275
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:30.519
of anyway.

276
00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:35.440
Well, there were definitely some things, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah,

277
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:37.519
there are definitely some things. But I mean it's the

278
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:42.000
type of area where a lot of times up until

279
00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:45.720
probably we were about high school age, at a certain point,

280
00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:49.320
then you know, you start driving. But it was very

281
00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:53.039
normal to just see kids walking like, you know, a

282
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:57.240
mile two miles to the nearest, you know, from one

283
00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:00.840
campus to another, or walk into the grocery store. Everybody

284
00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:03.399
hangs out in the deli department at fred Meer's.

285
00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:07.480
Oh yeah, I was never invited.

286
00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.920
You just got to show up. It's a bit of

287
00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:15.720
a walk for you.

288
00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:17.599
It's a long walk. Yeah.

289
00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:23.640
But there in Aloa, Lonnie worked as an assembly and

290
00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:28.839
quality control specialist for a short time, which sounds like

291
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:33.319
a job I could absolutely not do at all. Cassie

292
00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:33.960
backed me up here.

293
00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:37.359
I just think of Elf when he's testing out the

294
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:39.000
jack in the box thing.

295
00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:44.759
Yeah, a pot as well be that. I don't know.

296
00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:47.839
That just sounds like a job I'm not equipped for.

297
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:52.519
Co Workers recalled that she was a mild mannered and

298
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:57.240
incredibly warm person. So if you are hoping that it

299
00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.960
would be less heartbreaking because she was secretly a day

300
00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:05.079
I have bad news on that front. Martin, who was

301
00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:08.559
her cousin's husband, said she was quite gifted at making

302
00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:13.000
others laugh when they were feeling down. Now, Lonnie was

303
00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:17.480
temporarily unemployed in August of two thousand and one. She

304
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:22.400
lived in Hillsboro, actually a small section of neighborhood that

305
00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:28.319
locals know as Readville, with some of her extended family

306
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:34.240
at the time along Southwest Cornelia's pass road. Everybody pause,

307
00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:38.079
and I realized that I'm the only one along with

308
00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:40.039
Kate that can see Cassie's face.

309
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:42.160
But just we're going to pause for reaction.

310
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:44.880
She's I mean, I know exactly where it's at.

311
00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:50.079
Yeah, her discomfort is grown just for contact who lives

312
00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:52.759
here is highly uncomfortable right now.

313
00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:54.839
Yeah.

314
00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:59.240
On Saturday, August twenty fifth, Lonnie left home just before

315
00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:04.200
midnight where a pair of designer and you guys legend

316
00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:11.079
acid washed jeans, oh yeah, and a gray sweatshirt, white

317
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:19.279
sneakers with her fingernails painted green. All I know, hashtag goals.

318
00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.079
She was five nine and about one hundred and thirty pounds,

319
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.759
which I am five foot and I don't think I could.

320
00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:27.279
Say that today.

321
00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:35.759
So weait is just a number, she said, yes, Yeah,

322
00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.000
her long hair was naturally dark but was tinted red

323
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:43.000
at the time. It actually was really pretty oh cute.

324
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:45.880
The weather at this time of year is fairly warm,

325
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.279
but can actually cool down fairly significantly in the evening hours,

326
00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.079
so it's not unusual for someone to be wearing shorts

327
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:58.039
or other summary attire during the day and then change

328
00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:00.839
into jeans to go out for or a late dinner

329
00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:04.640
or for a movie or whatever. So I don't know

330
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:07.359
what Lonnie had worn earlier in the day, but I

331
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.720
just felt like I wanted to add that for context,

332
00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:12.400
because at the end of August, in a lot of

333
00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:15.359
places you would not be caught dead in like a

334
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:20.119
sweatshirt and jeans, So it's a lot cooler here if

335
00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:26.000
you haven't visited. Yeah, on a weekend evening like this,

336
00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:33.640
Lonnie usually frequented bars along southwest to Walleton Valley Highway

337
00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:37.319
or TV Highway as it's known in the area.

338
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.160
I was like, wait, I don't even know what that is.

339
00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:41.319
It's too long.

340
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.640
To walatana.

341
00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:47.599
The GPS can never say it right either.

342
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:50.680
Yeah, that's a tough one to and then if you

343
00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:54.240
have to spell it out for somebody on customer service

344
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.720
like calls or something. It's unclear what her exact plans

345
00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:02.119
were on this evening or precisely where she was the

346
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:05.680
entire evening, but we do have some information about her

347
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:10.680
whereabouts on this of course, the evening in question, she

348
00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.440
was spotted at the Golden Fountain Lounge on Southwest Canyon

349
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:18.359
Road in Beaverton at one point, though reportedly she didn't

350
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:23.160
stay long. It's kind of unclear exactly how long she

351
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:27.319
was there, which is interesting because I do think we

352
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:32.599
have a pretty clear timeline of other little sections, little

353
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:37.240
chunks of her whereabouts for that evening. So struck me

354
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:42.079
as odd, but I'm not exactly sure why that is.

355
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:43.759
You know, maybe she.

356
00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.319
Just falls off CCTV footage and they lose her for

357
00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:47.799
a little bit.

358
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:51.759
I'm not sure. Hm, I know, I don't like it.

359
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:56.680
She walked along TV Highway in the direction of Murray Boulevard,

360
00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:01.519
headed towards a seven to eleven near the intersection, which

361
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:04.200
I can actually picture this seven eleven.

362
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:07.680
There's been a little road work done in that area,

363
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:09.200
so it might look a little different, but.

364
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.240
Yeah, yeah, I think in general, it's like I can

365
00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:15.039
very clearly picture it.

366
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:17.400
And it's just really eerie.

367
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:21.400
How much of this case I'm able to clearly visualize.

368
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:27.359
It's inside that seven eleven. She is seen on surveillance

369
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:32.839
cameras having a conversation with another woman at two ten am,

370
00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:38.240
So at this point it's probably been about two hours

371
00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:42.240
since she's left home. It's not a huge chunk of time,

372
00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:47.000
especially considering that's like not exactly a short walk from

373
00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:49.880
down that end of Canyon Road all the way up.

374
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:55.640
Lonnie apparently visited this seven eleven often, so this wasn't

375
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.759
really unusual. It's just kind of more a part of

376
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:04.319
the timeline. At approximately three point thirty am, near TV

377
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:08.440
Highway and one hundred and forty First Avenue, she flagged

378
00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:11.000
down two police officers that were driving by.

379
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:13.200
Normally, this might.

380
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:16.400
Be where you'd suspect that this is where things began

381
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:17.000
to go wrong.

382
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:19.519
I feel like a.

383
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.400
Lot of cases we've talked about that's kind of where

384
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.599
things go sideways. Yeah, we're certainly hearing about it in

385
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:32.200
the news, but not so. She had, however, flagged them down,

386
00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:35.160
and it was simply to ask them for a ride.

387
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:43.200
And I'm like, wait, so she flags down police officers

388
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:52.039
for a ride and somehow she still ends up not surviving.

389
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.960
This is obviously the knight that she's killed. How does

390
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.839
that happen? Oh my goodness, did they give her a ride?

391
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:01.519
They did not.

392
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.839
I was gonna say, how why not?

393
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:08.079
Well, I just won't. Cops won't.

394
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.920
Yeah, and I understand that that tends to be a

395
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:18.400
common practice. In this case, it's kind of a it's like, God,

396
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:21.559
damn it, it's just a shit situation.

397
00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:24.920
The way I've had often, there's a lot of times

398
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.119
where people who end up victims of any sort of

399
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:33.799
crime have had interactions with cops. And if cops perhaps

400
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:41.160
focused on community support rather than perceived power and enforcement

401
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:51.359
and you know, keeping people alive rather than not, that'd

402
00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:52.160
be pretty cool.

403
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:54.039
Yeah.

404
00:24:54.559 --> 00:25:01.039
Unfortunately, in this particular case, there was just a literal

405
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:03.759
misunderstanding and the nature of it.

406
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.119
And Cassie, you're going to be able to tell right

407
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:07.559
away because.

408
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:14.119
The language barrier. Oh, there's some confusion there. And I'm

409
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:17.200
just I'm gonna all get through this next part and

410
00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:22.279
I'll you'll understand. I'm just like, this just kills me.

411
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:24.160
It absolutely kills me.

412
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:25.680
So.

413
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:31.119
Officer Brandon Herring had difficulty understanding some of the conversation.

414
00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:35.920
Apparently because of Lonnie's accent, they believed that Lonnie wished

415
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:39.599
to be driven all the way to the nearby town

416
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:47.480
of Cornelius rather than literally just right down the road

417
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:53.599
on Cornelius Pass Road. So they thought, you know, okay, well,

418
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:56.960
we're going to offer to call a cab, or we

419
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.279
can call a friend or a relative for you. They

420
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:01.920
just were not going to be able to take her

421
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:05.559
the roughly ten miles northwest of where she had flagged

422
00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:08.559
them down. It's a little bit longer, and it's outside

423
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:10.799
of the area that they should be patrolling.

424
00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:14.759
And I'm like, god, damn it.

425
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:20.440
I mean, but realistically, like in most jurisdictions, yeah, police

426
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:22.319
won't give you a ride ten feet down the rudd.

427
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:24.880
It's I mean, that is true, and there are.

428
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:31.440
Certain justifications for that, Yeah, which I.

429
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:32.000
We have feelings about.

430
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.440
I've had I've worked close I've worked in the criminal

431
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.359
lostices system. I've worked closely with cops, and I understand

432
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:43.519
that they are hampered by rules. Yeah, so maybe that's

433
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:47.160
changed the rules. But we're looking at twenty one years ago,

434
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:50.839
so twenty three years ago almost, So okay, all right,

435
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:53.920
we were things were things are real different, but I.

436
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:58.799
Would think, yeah, and Lonnie just didn't want to spend

437
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:01.279
money on a cab. And then, of course, you know,

438
00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:03.720
it's three thirty in the morning, and she doesn't want

439
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:06.160
them to call somebody and you know, wake them up

440
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:08.960
at that early morning hour. She's like, I don't want

441
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.599
to disturb anyone else at this time of the morning,

442
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:16.960
which I mean, very sweet that she didn't want to

443
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.680
do that. But at the same time, I'm sure that

444
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:23.319
nearly anyone in her life would be happy to come

445
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:23.839
and pick her.

446
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:25.720
Up to make sure that she made it home safely.

447
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:29.079
So that's one of those tough ones where you know,

448
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:32.920
you feel a little bit heartbroken for what could have been.

449
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:38.200
I guess yeah, And I'm sure everyone that she knew

450
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:40.400
would agree that they would go pick her ups. She

451
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.319
sounded like she was very beloved.

452
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:47.400
Yeah, if they had realized that she was referring to

453
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:50.759
Cornelia's pass road, that was a very short drive from

454
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:54.039
where they stood, and I'm guessing that that night would

455
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:58.599
have ended very differently. It sounds like, specifically, just the

456
00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:02.559
length of the drive that they assumed she wanted them

457
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:06.599
to take her was kind of the deal breaker. I mean,

458
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:08.960
for those of you that aren't locals. Right around this

459
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:12.920
stretch of road is where Hillsboro and Beaverton roughly meet.

460
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:16.039
Just a handful of years ago, I worked at a

461
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:18.640
business that was situated just a couple of blocks down

462
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:24.599
from this very corner, and Cornelius is a bit of

463
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:28.279
a track. I mean, it's a minimum of ten miles

464
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:33.960
and sadly, it's the last known location where Lonnie was

465
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:40.960
seen alive. It's like, I kind of it's a tough

466
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:44.400
one because I'm like, it's not that they necessarily did

467
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:47.039
anything wrong, but it's like they don't always have the

468
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.759
best tools to deal with this stuff. It's just like, fuck,

469
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:50.519
it sucks.

470
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:56.680
It fucking sucks, and you know they probably feel fucking terrible.

471
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:02.119
I hope so, frankly, honestly, yeah, that's not vitriol against cops.

472
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:04.400
That's I hope that you had the humanity within you

473
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:09.319
to feel bad. Yeah, you know, you know I feel

474
00:29:09.319 --> 00:29:14.799
bad when you know, if I learned sometimes that like

475
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:19.880
oh I just missed an accident, yeah, or exactly see

476
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:21.839
an accident happen or something, and I feel bad, like

477
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:26.319
I wish I could have I'm sort of geared to help,

478
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.319
probably really at times but there's times where it's like

479
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:31.839
there's nothing I could do it on the other side

480
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.440
of the highway, or I learned that the accident happened

481
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:38.359
right after I went by, or whatever, where it's like, oh,

482
00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:40.960
I wish I could have you know. And so it's

483
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:43.799
just that those it's those near misses that are the worst.

484
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.880
Yeah, I have chills right now.

485
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:51.200
There's no way that either of you guys could have

486
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:55.200
known this. But we literally just had that experience last night.

487
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:59.559
Oh it was on the other side of the freeway

488
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:04.799
because we saw a police vehicle come up behind us,

489
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:11.759
and holy shit, were they hauling ass. And the cop

490
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:14.359
finally got to a point where he stopped and he's

491
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:16.920
on the left hand side of the freeway and I

492
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:20.759
mean a very major freeway and he gets out and

493
00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:24.960
he hopped the median and I couldn't really clearly see

494
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:27.599
what had happened on the other side, but I'm like, oh, man,

495
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:32.720
it's like that you just feel for whoever, like he's

496
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:34.599
rushing to try to help.

497
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:39.480
Oh, just had a feeling of dread after that.

498
00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:44.480
Well, you're so sensitive too, you probably picked up on

499
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:47.880
someone's energy while you're passing by.

500
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:50.799
Something for sure.

501
00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:52.720
Ye a sponge.

502
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:55.440
I mean, I even feel bad when there is an

503
00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:01.640
accident and it seems contained, and I feel guilty passing by, right,

504
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:05.039
I don't feel guilty about anything ever. Guilty is nothing

505
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:09.839
anybody I wish I could help into any But like so,

506
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:12.359
I have driven out there. I've been in Hillsboro and

507
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:16.839
Beerton and in your is nearby. I don't I don't

508
00:31:16.839 --> 00:31:18.680
have permission to use their name, but a close friend

509
00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:21.000
of mine lives in Hillsboro, and so I've spent some

510
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:26.759
time there, and I don't know where we're I do,

511
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.279
I think, I mean, and there's a there's a faux

512
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:33.960
restaurant that's amazing, that's right down that area, right, I don't.

513
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:35.519
What type of restaurant. I didn't.

514
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:37.400
It's called Folking.

515
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:43.839
Yeah, it's really popular.

516
00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:47.279
It's really good. It should be. And so anyway, but

517
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:49.799
out here, you know, so, I mean, Route ninety comes

518
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:52.880
all the way out here as well, and so we

519
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:54.799
have the same kind of thing. And I feel bad

520
00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:58.039
when the accident seems like it's contained, and you know,

521
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.519
a backs up traffic for some some space, you know,

522
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:07.480
quarter mile whatever, and then there's this span where the

523
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:12.720
cars stopped by the accident are just stuck. Yeah, and

524
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:15.799
you get past the next exit and you see other

525
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:18.960
cars coming and they don't know. Oh, I know, And

526
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:21.720
I just wish I had some sort of like how

527
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:25.279
can I work or something like pull off? Now, go

528
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:28.759
use the bathroom, get a drink, for the love of God,

529
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.799
like you have a terrible time, just go around, you know,

530
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:32.799
but there's nothing you can do.

531
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:36.039
So yeah, no, that's true. It's a kind of a

532
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:42.519
helpless feeling. It's awful. On Sunday, August twenty sixth, her

533
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:46.279
body was discovered in what was described as an overgrown

534
00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:51.000
field by a teenage girl who was out jogging.

535
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.559
Oh no, this is why you don't jog.

536
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:58.680
I mean, it's one of many reasons not to jog.

537
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:02.079
I would argue, I could produce a list, I mean

538
00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:06.119
as long as I am tall, which she isn't saying much.

539
00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:08.640
But you know, there's a lot of reasons.

540
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:11.720
But yeah, that's the poor kid.

541
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:12.319
I know.

542
00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:16.599
I mean, she was like sixteen years old. Who is

543
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:19.039
going out this early in the morning on a Sunday

544
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:22.119
to jog a teenager keeping.

545
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:22.920
Up track team.

546
00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:28.920
I must have been. It's the only explanation Lonnie's body

547
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:32.519
was left there following the horrific attack that took her life.

548
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:37.000
For context, this is about four miles south of Hillsboro

549
00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:41.119
on a stretch of Southwest Farmington Road that remains to

550
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:46.559
this day actually fairly rural still almost a farmland type

551
00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:49.119
area near Rudbridge Road.

552
00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:52.720
Gotcha, that's like right by the high school too, right?

553
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:55.200
Or is it a little bit further away. No, it's

554
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:55.880
very close.

555
00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:59.960
It's I mean, for Hillsboro kids, it's basically walking distance

556
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:05.279
to the high school from there. Yeah, her body was

557
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:16.400
left hidden just beyond the tree line. Lonnie was beaten

558
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:21.079
really severely. Her cause of death was blunt force trauma

559
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.760
to the head and face, likely inflicted with a blunt

560
00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:29.159
instrument of some kind. They suspect maybe a jack or

561
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:33.599
a tire iron, which is just horrific because it's kind

562
00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:35.559
of a weapon of opportunity.

563
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:36.480
I would think.

564
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:41.280
This was another topic that her uncle, Greg Miles, spoke

565
00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:45.239
to the intelligence report about, stating that some of her

566
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:52.159
fingertips had been cut off what and that her face

567
00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:55.519
had been virtually smashed and were.

568
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:58.400
They trying to like hide the identity or something?

569
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:01.239
You know, It's it seems like that might have.

570
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:05.679
Well, he definitely felt like it was a crime that

571
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:11.960
had definitely been committed in a rage, and there definitely

572
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:16.639
was sort of some speculation that the removal of some

573
00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:20.400
of Lonnie's fingertips by her killer could have been either

574
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:24.599
an expression of rage, but also some suspected it may

575
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:26.760
have also been an effort to.

576
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:29.920
Thwart her identification.

577
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:32.119
Yeah, but if you just remove some of them, I

578
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:35.679
guess it doesn't really that doesn't really make sense. I

579
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:36.039
don't know.

580
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:40.559
Ugh, Yeah, I mean, I'm not really sure what to

581
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:41.000
make of that.

582
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:42.960
Was there a sexual element to it?

583
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.840
There was not, and that was something.

584
00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:52.320
That's what I wonder is did they disc because there

585
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:57.679
could be a sexual element to crime without sex happening.

586
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:00.840
Yeah, absolutely, And in.

587
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:05.239
Which case you may opt not to get involved with

588
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.079
the genitalia in any way, you know, the genital region,

589
00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:10.239
the chest reasion, you may opt not to do that.

590
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:12.519
But if it's rage, if it was I thought I

591
00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:16.840
was picking a girl up, you know, and this isn't

592
00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:20.760
a girl with that kind of attitude, And now what

593
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:24.000
do you attack to remove someone's identity? If you're going

594
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:30.320
to leave the gentally intact, you know, then maybe it

595
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:34.559
wasn't so much the finger prints as the fingernails.

596
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.519
And you know, that's an interesting point because I thought,

597
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:41.719
you know, with the painted nails, I mean, that doesn't

598
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.159
seem like much of a stretch, but it's it is

599
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:48.400
kind of odd because again it's not necessarily all of

600
00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:49.360
the fingertips.

601
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:52.159
But to me, that kind of makes sense.

602
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:56.320
You know, It's just it feels like, you know, removing

603
00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:01.239
aspects of somebody's identity, including removing aspects of someone's femininity.

604
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:08.360
Yeah, and ultimately, I think if nothing else, this really

605
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:13.480
comes down to a level of sort of devaluing someone

606
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:22.320
and it's I mean, what I would think of as desecration, and.

607
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:28.000
I mean, that's just it's heartbreaking. How old is she

608
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:29.639
twenty eight.

609
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.400
So she's a little bit older than I am then

610
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.840
and because I was twenty four, I turned twenty four

611
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:43.800
in two thousand and one. And that's that's a that's

612
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:49.000
a time where we still used words like transvestite and

613
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:54.360
cross streussure, but it was no longer a pejorative, like

614
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:57.239
it wasn't name calling as much. So it was like

615
00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:00.119
it was it was sort of on the scene, but

616
00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:04.159
the idea of being fully transgender was not something that

617
00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:10.199
was super common, and it was still diagnosed civilism mental illness.

618
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:19.280
Oh was it a So? I graduated with my doctorate

619
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:24.559
in two thousand and five and a classmate of mine

620
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:32.159
did her dissertation on gender identity disorder as it was

621
00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:37.480
called then, Oh wow, And I mean, to her credit,

622
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:41.960
it was about how, hey, let's not call this a disorder.

623
00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:44.519
She's like, we don't.

624
00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:47.599
She's like, maybe we could not. And it is no longer.

625
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:52.960
You know, since then, the manual with which we diagnosed

626
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:56.679
people has been updated and that's been taken out. But

627
00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:02.159
you know, it was pretty heavily pasthologized.

628
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:02.679
You know.

629
00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:09.960
In Massachusetts, I worked in a locked state psychiatric hospital,

630
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.320
which is sort of long term stay sort of things.

631
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:17.880
And one of my patients whom I can't name, but

632
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:25.639
she was the first person in Massachusetts to my knowledge,

633
00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:32.239
who had spent time incarcerated in both men in women's

634
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:37.760
facilities because she was interesting assigned mail at birth, and

635
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:43.679
so after the first crimes that she committed, she was

636
00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:48.639
sort of automatically placed in a men's prison. And to

637
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:52.039
their credit, first of all, sexual assault is not as

638
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:54.679
common in prison as people think it is. But secondly,

639
00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:58.960
to their credit, they did acknowledge her safety risks and

640
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:02.360
keep her in solitary. But the flip side to solitary,

641
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:03.880
is it solitary.

642
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:07.840
Right exactly? That takes on someone's mental health.

643
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:10.159
It's so it's sort of a do you want to

644
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:11.679
go crazy or do you want to die? Like those

645
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:13.960
were sort of choices that you're given. There's is not

646
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:18.079
an entirely great set of choices. But so the second

647
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:21.719
time or a subsequent time, I can't say second time,

648
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:24.360
but a subsequent time that she was arrested, she was

649
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:29.519
placed in a women's facility, and that was considered at

650
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:34.079
the time. So this would have been three two thousand

651
00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:37.840
and four, was before I graduated. I was doing an internship,

652
00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:41.320
and at the time it was considered pretty progressive to

653
00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:44.840
place it, like sit with me for a second, to

654
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:49.199
place a woman in a woman's prism right right, Yeah.

655
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:54.920
But she also then ended up in the psychiatric hospital

656
00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:00.320
because life had not been kind to her. You had

657
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:08.639
some legitimate mental illnesses, as you know, to do it. Yeah,

658
00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:11.320
and then it was just a matter of like, so

659
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:16.039
the hospitals are mixed gender here and they try to

660
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:21.159
put usually it's two people pull room, same sex, but

661
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:24.119
they will try to put people in solo rooms if

662
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:27.519
there's any sort of risk of either're acting out or

663
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:29.320
being acted out of Han and so she had a

664
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:29.920
solo room.

665
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:34.440
And I think that's I mean, it's a tough situation

666
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:37.559
because of course, you know a lot of those facilities.

667
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:44.039
I mean, if you're nearing capacity or already ad or

668
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:47.199
over capacity some of those things, that it can be

669
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:51.599
so difficult to accommodate and make sure that that it

670
00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:54.159
has to be I mean, it just has to be.

671
00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:01.320
Oh back to the the fingers.

672
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:05.480
The fingers, Okay.

673
00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:09.679
Yeah, but obviously it didn't pan out. If they were

674
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:13.159
trying to thwart identification, that was not going to work.

675
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:17.199
But obviously it's just a very brutal act.

676
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:21.000
I mean, regardless of why you're doing that, that is

677
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:25.000
just an act of brutality against another human that I

678
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:29.079
would hope that none of us can understand, I mean

679
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:30.320
in a million.

680
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.480
Years, except maybe the psychologist.

681
00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:39.039
Understand maybe has based on what we know Ye's different, right, sure,

682
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:41.400
well based on what me know that But that's part

683
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:43.679
of why I like I My job would often be

684
00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:48.719
to sit down and ask somebody, like I've had conversations

685
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:52.639
that evolve things like, literally, why did you try and

686
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:56.079
remove the fingerstips like, and you have to ask those

687
00:42:56.199 --> 00:42:57.599
questions with a fairly.

688
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:02.360
Straight face, acts like I am not saying the words

689
00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:05.079
that I am about to say, but I'm going to

690
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:08.039
ask you how many times did you hit it with

691
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.559
the tire iron like? And you have to you have

692
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:16.159
to sort of check your own morality at the door,

693
00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:21.440
m And I'm going to enter you your world, and

694
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:24.760
I'm going to ask you questions and I'm going to

695
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:26.920
do my best to understand. And now the trick is

696
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:29.960
you you do your best to understand the person, but

697
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.840
then you pick your own morality back up as you

698
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:36.000
leave the room again, of course, get back into your

699
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.599
own head because I think it's I know it's possible.

700
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:44.920
I've watched colleagues break because they they it starts to

701
00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:46.199
make too much sense.

702
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:49.960
To them, right, I mean, it's breaking down who they are.

703
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.599
And that's that's the thing you have to sort of consciously.

704
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:56.719
I'm going to check my logic and check my rationality

705
00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:58.159
at the door, and I'm going to come in and

706
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:00.119
I'm going to enter your world. But then when let

707
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.360
me leave, your world stays here and I'm going home.

708
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:11.400
Yeah, goodbye forever, Well until tomorrow yeah or yeah, Oh.

709
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:13.199
My goodness, what'd I say every time I leave here?

710
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:14.599
Goodbye forever.

711
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:19.639
Till next week? You know what I mean?

712
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:23.760
That side of things I think is so interesting and

713
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:28.639
really thinking about how you approach those things. And my

714
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:35.079
partner does interrogation as part of his career field, and

715
00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:40.360
I have learned a lot from him in that regard.

716
00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:46.920
I know that I don't ever want to play poker

717
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:52.159
for money with either of you. Not a chance in hell,

718
00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:59.159
not a snowflakes chance in hell. I don't stand a chance.

719
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:03.559
I'm just like way too transparent and I'm an oversharer.

720
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:06.440
It's I can't help myself.

721
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:10.079
This is one that I I'm curious what you make

722
00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:14.960
of this. Oddly, it was said that Lonnie didn't have

723
00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:19.400
broken fingernails, so it didn't seem like she had much

724
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:24.360
of an opportunity to put up a fight, So it's

725
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:29.039
a little bit unclear and without actually pulling up necessarily

726
00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:30.960
like an autopsy report.

727
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:33.559
And to be honest, I you know.

728
00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:37.480
I as much as the details of it are so

729
00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:41.320
interesting for many of us, you know that are interested

730
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:44.559
in true crime, and you know we care about these cases.

731
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:47.679
For a menagerie of reasons.

732
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:50.679
I was like, I just don't know if I have

733
00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:53.159
it in me to get into the nitty gritty of

734
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:54.960
like fingertip.

735
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:56.800
Can you quantify that for me?

736
00:45:57.639 --> 00:46:04.840
But I'm curious from your perspective if somebody has.

737
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:07.559
Removed part of.

738
00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:11.199
The fingertip or the entirety of a fingertip, but not

739
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:13.639
on every finger.

740
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:18.239
So let's god, this is terrible. That's for argument's sake.

741
00:46:18.679 --> 00:46:21.719
It's probably done postwartem would be my guess.

742
00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:23.960
Well, I mean I would think so, you know.

743
00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:26.239
And that if somebody's coming at you with a tire

744
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:29.119
iron and it's funny that it's a tire, it's not funny.

745
00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:29.840
Nothing's funny.

746
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.719
Yeah, yeah, huorious, it's not funny.

747
00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:37.599
Ha ha. So on December twenty sixth, twenty twenty two,

748
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:42.360
happens to be my husband's birthday, and which we don't

749
00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:45.480
celebrate in December because the twenty six is a crappy

750
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:48.199
time to have a birthday frankly, but you know, still,

751
00:46:48.199 --> 00:46:50.280
we had we had dinner, red cupcakes. That was great,

752
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:55.320
and I was about to head upstairs to go to

753
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:58.320
bed to the evening and I, by the way, I

754
00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:01.480
am deaf mostly I hear about what twenty five percent

755
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:05.000
of what normal people hear. And so I'm just sort

756
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:09.239
of doing my hang and you know, good, I head

757
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:11.199
an upstairs and my husband stops and he's like, can

758
00:47:11.239 --> 00:47:11.719
you hear that?

759
00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:14.440
And I'm like, what do you think?

760
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.639
What are you saying? He's like, he said, then he said,

761
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:21.639
I think someone just hit the house. Which you have

762
00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:25.599
to understand that my house is it's away from the

763
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:28.960
street a little bit, but it's up on a little hill,

764
00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:34.119
so nobody's going to hit the house with like, what

765
00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:39.679
do you But I'm like, I don't know. But as

766
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.440
I said, like, I'm geared towards like getting involved and

767
00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:45.280
stepping in, and so I just walked out on my

768
00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:47.880
front porch and he's like, what are you doing? You know?

769
00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:50.199
But I'm like, if you think something's going on, And

770
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:54.320
what's going on is across the street one over there's

771
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:57.119
a house that we had been referring to as the

772
00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:00.719
meth House, which you know, Salem's not a super methy

773
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:06.159
place like in general, but this one house has had

774
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:08.559
a lot of turnover in the past year, and so

775
00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:11.039
we've started referring to it as the meth house. Although

776
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:17.559
it turns out we were probably accurate. And so this

777
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:22.039
young gentleman is screaming. He's standing outside and he's screaming

778
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:25.880
at the occupants of the house, and he's holding.

779
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:27.719
A tire iron. Oh my god.

780
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:33.960
And I'm like, and I just I my question, which

781
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:40.599
often will de escalate things. One would hope, you know,

782
00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:42.800
you don't do the hey, what's going on? That kind

783
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:44.280
of thing, because that can be kind of aggressive, and

784
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.119
stead I was like, hey, are you safe?

785
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:48.239
Oh?

786
00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:51.119
Are you safe? Do you know? Is there something that

787
00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:53.440
I can help you with right now? Are you safe?

788
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:57.079
And and he did come down for a second. He

789
00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:01.519
sort of lowered the weapon and he he started sort

790
00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:03.719
of ranting to me about they have my they have

791
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:08.840
my stuff in the house, and and I was like, okay, okay,

792
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:13.280
I can't like, you can't go in my house. And

793
00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:16.880
I don't like, are you but are you safe? Do

794
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:19.079
you need me to call anybody? That's what I can

795
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:22.639
do for you right now? Call anything? And he was

796
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:24.880
like no, I'll just get at myself. And he turns

797
00:49:24.920 --> 00:49:27.880
around and he like bolts up their front steps with

798
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:31.039
the tire iron and breaks the plate glass window. Oh

799
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:33.880
my gosh, that was pretty much my reaction. And so

800
00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:38.440
by by through the process of this. As soon as

801
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:40.079
he turns around and says, no, I'm gonna you know,

802
00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:41.960
I'm gonna get at myself. I get on the phone

803
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:46.760
and I'm calling nine one one. So I'm the caller

804
00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:50.159
on nine one one while he's breaking the glass.

805
00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:51.840
Oh my goodness.

806
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:55.199
And so I can tell you that the tire iron

807
00:49:55.320 --> 00:50:00.960
is suddenly a lot longer of an instrument. The thing

808
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:05.159
about it is that it's narrow and right, you know,

809
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.239
especially if you're sort of holding the hook end in

810
00:50:09.400 --> 00:50:12.039
swinging with the other one. It'd be easy to hit

811
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:15.440
somebody and kill them. You know, you knock them out

812
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:20.119
before and they're not you know, it's done. It's not

813
00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:24.119
like like like a physical assault or like a baseball

814
00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:26.880
vat or something. You get your hands up and now

815
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:28.440
the fingernails can break.

816
00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:30.920
That makes a lot of sense.

817
00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:33.480
You know, a tireron, you can you can hit somebody

818
00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:37.440
and kind of skip the hand part altogether, you know,

819
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:39.800
and just go directly to the you know, the tire iron.

820
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:42.599
It's connected to the headbone. I think that's how the

821
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:46.000
song goes, right, like, that's that's how it goes. And

822
00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:50.639
like the removal of fingertips or the removal of any

823
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:54.920
body part at all generally is not something that is

824
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:59.920
done on a living victim once in a great while.

825
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:04.519
Aile Sylvia li Likens is an example of a torture

826
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:08.760
case that that wish she lived for an extended amount

827
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:13.920
of time with various tortures to her body. But by

828
00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:22.639
and large, that kind of disfigurement and and dehumanization happens

829
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:27.840
after the death. No, and and frankly I hope.

830
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:30.679
I mean, yeah, I think we all do.

831
00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:35.280
You know? And so because I look after I'm dead,

832
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:41.280
I don't care right like anymore, Like I I reserve

833
00:51:41.320 --> 00:51:46.280
the right to haunt your dreams and if I have to,

834
00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:51.639
But that you know, when once once you're beyond feeling,

835
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:56.000
of course, usually that's when that's when you know it's

836
00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:58.920
a it's sort of a panicked, sloppy clean up kind

837
00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:02.199
of my mindset to do those sorts of things.

838
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:06.400
Yeah, I have a question. I don't know if you're

839
00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:09.119
going to get into it. Did were the fingers tips

840
00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:11.039
there or did they take them?

841
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:17.320
You know, that's another I'm not sure. It's unclear. It

842
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:22.800
does sound like she was killed in one place and

843
00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:25.039
her body was discovered in another.

844
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:27.199
Right that would make sense, Okay.

845
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:31.239
The thing that it's like and it's I'm I feel

846
00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:35.480
like this is probably just to be able to convey

847
00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:39.880
the question that I have about the fingertips, like in

848
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:43.639
light of the full picture of the forensic evidence at

849
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:47.599
least that without doing a FOIA request of some sort

850
00:52:47.719 --> 00:52:52.280
that you know I have. It's almost like the way

851
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:54.239
I would have to word it, it's like it's too

852
00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:59.840
graphic and I don't want to sensationalize in that way

853
00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:08.239
with this case. But I'm very curious about in the

854
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:16.800
instance where they've removed maybe some of the fingertips, and.

855
00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:19.679
I'm thinking.

856
00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:25.760
It's so hard not knowing exactly like how much of

857
00:53:25.800 --> 00:53:29.239
the fingertip did they actually like you were saying, you know,

858
00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:32.119
they cut off the entire finger, you know, up to

859
00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:37.599
kind of that first knuckle basically, and they've taken the nails.

860
00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:38.000
Like.

861
00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:44.039
What is the what is the what's the purpose otherwise?

862
00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:47.639
Like I mean, it's not thwarting the identification unless you

863
00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:50.480
take all of them. So I mean, is that just

864
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:52.400
about mutilation?

865
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:57.440
Like I mean, it could be as simple as oh shit,

866
00:53:57.559 --> 00:53:59.280
this is harder than I thought it was going to be.

867
00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:05.960
Way like that happens a lot where people do they

868
00:54:05.960 --> 00:54:09.039
commit a crime, they think I'm going to obliterate this

869
00:54:09.079 --> 00:54:13.920
person's identity and get away, and this usually that's an

870
00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:18.679
indication that there's a connection between victim and perpetrator, because

871
00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:21.760
otherwise why do you care? Right right? Like, I don't

872
00:54:21.800 --> 00:54:24.039
care if I've killed a stranger. I don't care if

873
00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:25.719
you figure out who they are, because there's no connection

874
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:28.360
between us. But if I kill somebody, I know I've

875
00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:31.760
got you know, on a Walsh case, right like, there's

876
00:54:32.679 --> 00:54:36.119
motivation to try and obscure the identity and the location

877
00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:39.599
because there's a clear connection between on A Walls and

878
00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:45.840
Bryan Walsh as a parallel, and so that that would

879
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:48.119
make me wonder, like, why do you need to remove

880
00:54:48.159 --> 00:54:51.440
this person's identity? Are they a stand in for somebody

881
00:54:52.519 --> 00:54:57.760
in your life? That's a possibility, and now you're mad

882
00:54:57.760 --> 00:55:01.639
at them for not actually being that stand in or

883
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:07.119
do you know them? And you're trying to make sure

884
00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:10.360
that you have time to get away. And the thing

885
00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:14.280
about that is that sometimes people in the process of

886
00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:19.480
trying to hide their crime trying to like, look, I

887
00:55:19.480 --> 00:55:21.639
don't want to say this in a positive way, but

888
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:23.360
I don't know how else to say it is that

889
00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:24.960
dismemberment is work.

890
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:28.119
I mean, but it is, though, do you know, like

891
00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:29.800
it's work and it takes time.

892
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:32.480
And if you're saying that she was last seen alive

893
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:36.440
at three point thirty approximately in the morning, yeah, then

894
00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:41.360
was found at six am around that time, that's not

895
00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:44.760
a ton of time. You know. It takes time to

896
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:51.119
pick someone up, It takes time to beat them to death,

897
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:57.079
it takes time to try and obscure their identity, then

898
00:55:57.159 --> 00:56:01.000
it takes time to move the body, and you know,

899
00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:02.960
sun is starting to come up, You're starting to really

900
00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:06.840
panic because you definitely don't want to be seen in daylight.

901
00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:08.840
You don want your car to be seen, and so

902
00:56:11.599 --> 00:56:12.039
you quit.

903
00:56:12.920 --> 00:56:15.199
And that makes a lot of sense for me.

904
00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:19.039
It's just been really bothersome because it's like this feels

905
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:24.760
very incomplete, and I think maybe that's a particularly for

906
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:27.880
someone who's I mean, I'm very interested in this, but

907
00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:32.239
I'm obviously not an expert, and just coming from a

908
00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:36.239
layman's perspective, you know, you do kind of think like, well,

909
00:56:36.760 --> 00:56:38.800
they're going to do it this way or they're going

910
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.320
to do that, and it's like, well, they probably thought

911
00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:43.480
they were going to do it this way or you

912
00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:49.320
know whatever, but the reality of it, and so I mean,

913
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:52.239
it's just an interesting thing to keep in mind that

914
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:55.719
It's like the reality of the situation is that it

915
00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:56.280
takes time.

916
00:56:56.519 --> 00:57:00.559
I mean, thank god it does, thank God for real.

917
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:04.760
And I mean, and this is I am unabashedly against

918
00:57:04.840 --> 00:57:07.840
gun ownership because guns don't take time.

919
00:57:08.599 --> 00:57:11.480
Right, you can do you can wreak.

920
00:57:11.320 --> 00:57:16.960
Incredible havoc really fast with that and other methods. You

921
00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:19.679
can kill people with all kinds of things, but they

922
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:22.320
take longer. Another thing that I was just thinking of

923
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:25.599
is if if she was transported from one place to another,

924
00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:31.239
I would need to know, like were the fingertips cut

925
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:36.599
cleanly or where they may be broken off by slamming

926
00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:37.320
them in the trunk.

927
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:40.280
And that's a great question.

928
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:43.079
I mean, it's one of those things where it almost

929
00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:43.719
am like.

930
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:49.960
I again, hope that, honestly hope that because the more

931
00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:56.239
extreme the behavior, whether the victim is still alive or

932
00:57:56.239 --> 00:58:00.239
post mortem, the more extreme the behavior. Is this just

933
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:04.320
removing body parts implies a really disordered mind. And right,

934
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:05.760
that's scary.

935
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:11.639
It is scary, Oh god, man.

936
00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:15.719
I mean, we graduated in two thousand and seven from

937
00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:19.159
a high school that. I mean, for all intents and purposes,

938
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:25.199
it's not actual walking distance from this spot. But I remember,

939
00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:30.000
I mean really vaguely, but I remember hearing about this case.

940
00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:34.239
So did they ever find the perpetrator?

941
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:36.360
What do you think?

942
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:38.159
It's not sounding good?

943
00:58:38.679 --> 00:58:41.079
No, No, I wish.

944
00:58:41.199 --> 00:58:44.920
I mean, it's one of those cases because especially, like

945
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:49.119
you say, some of these details really inform us as

946
00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:52.280
far as like, Wow, this is someone that we should

947
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:57.159
be extremely fearful of, Like as a community, we should

948
00:58:57.159 --> 00:59:10.320
be very invested in finding this perpetrator. That's horrifying. Still,

949
00:59:10.360 --> 00:59:14.079
there was little evidence available at the scene. What that

950
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:16.920
told investigators at the time was that she had been

951
00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:21.159
murdered elsewhere and her body was only disposed of afterward

952
00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:24.320
where it had been found. Her time of death was

953
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:27.440
estimated to be somewhere between the hours of three point

954
00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:31.719
thirty and five am. This window leaves just about a

955
00:59:31.880 --> 00:59:35.840
ninety minute period after she interacted with the police officers

956
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:41.000
on TV Highway, during which she was brutally attacked and murdered.

957
00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:44.119
Her body was moved, I mean, all of the things

958
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:49.079
that you mentioned. It's the location where her body was

959
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:53.000
found was approximately nine miles away from where the police

960
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:58.119
had encountered her. This also gave them another very important

961
00:59:58.159 --> 01:00:00.960
piece of the puzzle, because there there was literally no

962
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:04.880
way that she could have traveled that far on foot

963
01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:05.639
in that time.

964
01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:08.840
She just couldn't.

965
01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:13.679
I mean, maybe an Olympic sprinter, I dot it. No, Well,

966
01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:18.400
she wasn't headed that direction, was she. No, that wasn't

967
01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:20.679
her goal to get over in that area.

968
01:00:21.400 --> 01:00:25.360
No, I mean this is all like such a if

969
01:00:25.360 --> 01:00:30.440
you think about it, like a small circle of geographic locations.

970
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:35.639
But no, I mean it's not really. It's certainly way

971
01:00:35.679 --> 01:00:40.559
overshooting where she lived at the time. Sexual assault and

972
01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:45.719
robbery were both ruled unlikely motives fairly early on. The

973
01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:49.599
medical examiner did not produce any findings indicating that there

974
01:00:49.599 --> 01:00:54.599
were signs of recent sexual activity. There was also still

975
01:00:54.719 --> 01:01:00.480
cash on her person when the body was discovered. Sadly,

976
01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:04.360
this final fatal act was not the only instance in

977
01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:10.239
which Lonnie had encountered violence or bigotry. She had actually

978
01:01:10.320 --> 01:01:14.159
endured two other assaults since moving to the Portland area,

979
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:20.079
neither of which were reported to law enforcement. Her family

980
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:24.719
stated that she just honestly didn't believe anything would or

981
01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:32.159
could be done. Washington County Sheriff's detective Mike O'Connell has

982
01:01:32.199 --> 01:01:35.400
long speculated that her gender identity may have played a

983
01:01:35.480 --> 01:01:40.199
role in her death, as it had with another previous

984
01:01:40.760 --> 01:01:47.599
to put it extremely mildly, a bad date encounter, she

985
01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:50.039
had been forced out of her dates vehicle after he

986
01:01:50.119 --> 01:01:56.480
realized her biological or anatomical gender. This is literally exactly

987
01:01:56.679 --> 01:02:04.199
what you mentioned, this exact example, Kate, And in any case,

988
01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:08.679
official statements released by law enforcement authorities indicate that they

989
01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:12.360
believe this to be the case, that she was specifically

990
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:18.199
targeted because of her gender identity. So kind of makes

991
01:02:18.199 --> 01:02:23.599
me lean towards that the fingers were you know, like

992
01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:26.679
you said, more than likely post mortem, but that they

993
01:02:26.719 --> 01:02:29.320
were taken intentionally.

994
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:33.880
I don't have a lot to go on in a case.

995
01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:39.000
Where there's not an instance of sexual assault, and like,

996
01:02:39.039 --> 01:02:40.960
I don't know what else they would be basing that on,

997
01:02:41.199 --> 01:02:43.119
but seems reasonable.

998
01:02:44.719 --> 01:02:47.639
I think were they just basing it off of her

999
01:02:47.800 --> 01:02:51.920
past encounters? I mean in that I suppose could be,

1000
01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:55.679
or maybe they know something else that well I didn't

1001
01:02:55.679 --> 01:02:58.480
get put out. Yeah, of course we know that in

1002
01:02:58.599 --> 01:03:02.320
so many cases that happens, they have to hold certain

1003
01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:07.000
details back because only one person's going to know those details,

1004
01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:12.920
but because obviously this was all probably starting to appear

1005
01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:15.039
that it might shape up nice.

1006
01:03:14.760 --> 01:03:24.880
And neat somehow, now I have bad news. So Lonnie's

1007
01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:28.079
case would sadly take a backseat to other world news

1008
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:33.519
as world events rapidly change the landscape not only for Americans,

1009
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:36.719
but in some sense kind of for people all over

1010
01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:40.360
the world. A public rally to raise awareness of the

1011
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:43.920
crime committed by Lonnie's killer was scheduled to take place

1012
01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:49.760
a few weeks following her murder. The notice was published

1013
01:03:49.800 --> 01:03:55.280
in the Am edition of newspapers on Tuesday, September eleventh

1014
01:03:55.440 --> 01:03:57.920
of two thousand and one.

1015
01:03:58.199 --> 01:04:01.599
Sit Yeah.

1016
01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:05.079
Her memorial service was held in October, before the crime

1017
01:04:05.119 --> 01:04:10.679
would end up fading into relative obscurity. Basic Rights Oregon

1018
01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:15.480
and other LGBTQ organizations have made efforts to keep Lonnie's

1019
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:18.639
story alive in the hopes that the pursuit of justice

1020
01:04:18.920 --> 01:04:24.480
would not prove fruitless. Roe Thorpe, the executive director of

1021
01:04:24.559 --> 01:04:28.239
Basic Rights Oregon, said in two thousand and two that

1022
01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:34.960
prejudice against the trans population dehumanizes. In two thousand and three,

1023
01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:39.719
Basic Rights Oregon introduced SB one thousand to the Oregon

1024
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:44.119
State Senate hoping to add gender identity under hate crime laws,

1025
01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:49.239
specifically citing Lonnie's case, with the further hope of possibly

1026
01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:52.920
getting the case additional coverage and or funding through local

1027
01:04:52.960 --> 01:04:55.840
police or I mean, how maybe if they could swing

1028
01:04:55.880 --> 01:05:01.119
it even the FBI. The bill was killed in committee

1029
01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:08.320
by Karen Menis Manass. I know you're shocked. She's a Republican,

1030
01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:16.199
just you know, the party that callously disregards and blatantly

1031
01:05:16.719 --> 01:05:18.239
victimizes minorities.

1032
01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:22.000
It's fine. In two thousand and.

1033
01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:25.159
Five, she would also oppose civil unions for same sex

1034
01:05:25.239 --> 01:05:28.639
couples because it's not enough to allow them to be

1035
01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:31.199
beaten or murdered, but they shouldn't be allowed to have

1036
01:05:31.239 --> 01:05:37.480
the same privileges as the rest of Oregon's god fearing couples. Ultimately,

1037
01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:40.679
s B one thousand would be passed, but it would

1038
01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:45.599
be missing critical protections that were considered critical can I

1039
01:05:45.639 --> 01:05:49.960
say again critical to the bill. Although some hailed it

1040
01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:53.920
as a success, this failure seemed to mean that Lonnie's case,

1041
01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:59.119
and potentially countless others like it, would remain labeled as

1042
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:01.480
bias based crime.

1043
01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:07.000
Really, I had no idea that that wouldn't be a

1044
01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:07.639
hate crime.

1045
01:06:08.760 --> 01:06:09.960
Yeah.

1046
01:06:10.679 --> 01:06:15.280
Wow, so it could not technically be labeled a hate crime,

1047
01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:19.800
which meant that far fewer people would ever even hear

1048
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:24.039
about the case. It's a confusing topic that I've kind

1049
01:06:24.039 --> 01:06:25.760
of done my best to give you, guys, like the

1050
01:06:25.800 --> 01:06:31.599
bullet points, because it's a lot of it's a lot

1051
01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:36.280
of back and forth in the legislature and different aspects

1052
01:06:36.280 --> 01:06:40.400
of our government that I have a very cursory understanding of.

1053
01:06:41.440 --> 01:06:44.239
I'm like, I have a podcast and a master's degree,

1054
01:06:44.840 --> 01:06:50.360
and I feel stupid. Since then Governor Kate Brown are

1055
01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:56.880
currently exiting. Governor signed House Bill thirty forty one, which

1056
01:06:56.920 --> 01:07:02.599
clarified existing anti discrimination protection by adding gender identity to

1057
01:07:02.719 --> 01:07:06.599
all Oregon laws that use sexual orientation in the text

1058
01:07:06.679 --> 01:07:12.039
of the law, which they are sometimes different things, guys.

1059
01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:16.599
This legislation expanded on the work of the Attorney General's

1060
01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:21.239
Hate Crimes Task Force via Senate Bill five seven seven,

1061
01:07:21.679 --> 01:07:25.639
which created a protected class for gender identity and Oregon

1062
01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:31.400
in does anyone want to guess what year? Twenty twenty two,

1063
01:07:32.480 --> 01:07:34.760
twenty nineteen, not a lot better?

1064
01:07:35.079 --> 01:07:36.760
Wow, that took a while.

1065
01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:38.320
Yeah, took a minute.

1066
01:07:40.039 --> 01:07:44.000
But of course, bigotry in nearly any form hasn't really

1067
01:07:44.039 --> 01:07:49.039
gone anywhere. Detective O'Connell received a call back in two

1068
01:07:49.039 --> 01:07:53.239
thousand and nine questioning why he was wasting so much

1069
01:07:53.280 --> 01:08:00.639
time on this case, and he was disgusted. And though

1070
01:08:00.679 --> 01:08:05.239
members of the Washington County Sheriff's Department made statements to

1071
01:08:05.239 --> 01:08:09.320
the press over the next several years, law enforcement was

1072
01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:13.239
unable to develop any new leads, and without much evidence

1073
01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:17.560
to go on, it hasn't been easy. As I wrote

1074
01:08:17.560 --> 01:08:21.279
my notes, I'm stunned to learn that Lnnie was believed

1075
01:08:21.279 --> 01:08:24.479
to be the first fatality victim of a hate crime

1076
01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:29.479
in Washington County. Her case is included in the playing

1077
01:08:29.520 --> 01:08:34.239
cards distributed to local jails or prisons, and she is

1078
01:08:34.279 --> 01:08:41.039
the five of Hearts. Another thing worth noting is that

1079
01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:44.079
I have not been able to verify whether there is

1080
01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:47.560
still a four thousand dollars reward for information leading to

1081
01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:51.600
the arrest of her killer. But if you have information,

1082
01:08:52.239 --> 01:08:56.760
please reach out to law enforcement. Obviously we'll include that

1083
01:08:56.840 --> 01:09:01.560
in the show notes. Keep that in mind as I

1084
01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:04.920
share this next part of the case. I actually reached

1085
01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:10.159
out to a media representative for Washington County for the

1086
01:09:10.159 --> 01:09:14.560
Sheriff's Department, as well as crime stoppers who had previously

1087
01:09:14.600 --> 01:09:18.960
offered reward money, and neither of them were able to

1088
01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:21.560
get back to me as far as whether or not

1089
01:09:21.560 --> 01:09:27.039
there's still a reward. In two thousand and two, investigators

1090
01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:30.079
revealed that two men had been seen near the crime

1091
01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:34.479
scene near Farmington Road. They'd been driving a small to

1092
01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:39.399
mid size suv. A man driving east on Farmington Road

1093
01:09:39.439 --> 01:09:42.159
past the vehicle as it was backing up the dirt

1094
01:09:42.239 --> 01:09:47.600
road that Lonnie was found on. One of the men

1095
01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:50.520
was in the vehicle and one was weaving animatedly in

1096
01:09:50.560 --> 01:09:51.039
the glare of.

1097
01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:52.239
The headlights of the vehicle.

1098
01:09:53.359 --> 01:09:56.800
These two individuals are believed to have been disposing of

1099
01:09:56.880 --> 01:10:02.359
Lonnie's body. An informant offered a tip to law enforcement

1100
01:10:02.439 --> 01:10:07.880
and exchanged in exchange for a reduced sentence. This led

1101
01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:10.880
them to a vehicle they believed to be used to

1102
01:10:11.199 --> 01:10:16.479
dispose of Lannie's body. However, this turned out to be

1103
01:10:16.520 --> 01:10:22.119
a dead end. And that's literally it, that is all.

1104
01:10:22.520 --> 01:10:24.159
She wrote.

1105
01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:28.239
Wow, well that's disappointing.

1106
01:10:31.079 --> 01:10:33.319
Oh god, Okay, I hate it when I make myself

1107
01:10:33.319 --> 01:10:41.239
feel things. I'm a fucking monster. It's just the the

1108
01:10:41.279 --> 01:10:46.680
part about like having somebody call the detective it's working

1109
01:10:46.720 --> 01:10:49.960
on a cold case and say like why are you

1110
01:10:50.039 --> 01:10:51.720
wasting type?

1111
01:10:52.640 --> 01:10:54.560
I know that's gross, Like why would you go out

1112
01:10:54.600 --> 01:10:56.560
of your way to even say that?

1113
01:10:57.560 --> 01:11:00.680
Like Jesus Christ, don't you have to buy grocery? Reason ship?

1114
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:02.720
Like where are you finding the time?

1115
01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:03.000
You know?

1116
01:11:03.319 --> 01:11:07.920
Like do you think it was possibly the murderer? I mean,

1117
01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:13.760
who knows. I don't know. I think sometimes people want attention.

1118
01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:17.880
And whether it's because they actually commit that crime or

1119
01:11:18.079 --> 01:11:23.479
they're just fucking hot garbage sauce trash people, I don't know.

1120
01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:35.640
But oh god, it makes me really said, I don't

1121
01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:37.359
always cry when we record.

1122
01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:40.479
This isn't actually coming.

1123
01:11:40.319 --> 01:11:42.039
Back, so it's fun.

1124
01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:43.399
She doesn't know any better.

1125
01:11:44.119 --> 01:11:46.439
I know, it's fun.

1126
01:11:47.239 --> 01:11:51.279
Oh yeah, she's like one out of one times that

1127
01:11:51.319 --> 01:11:53.520
I recorded with them, she was crying.

1128
01:11:53.560 --> 01:11:58.760
So make sure it happened again. It's good.

1129
01:11:59.239 --> 01:12:04.079
Oh good, I've just had a precedent. Okay.

1130
01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:08.640
Oh, so, I mean there's this is a really tough

1131
01:12:08.640 --> 01:12:12.359
one to transition. But we usually do our little tarot

1132
01:12:12.399 --> 01:12:16.800
reading and sometimes sometimes we get like a message that

1133
01:12:17.159 --> 01:12:20.279
is a little bit hopeful about you know, a case

1134
01:12:20.319 --> 01:12:22.039
like this it's unsolved or.

1135
01:12:23.560 --> 01:12:25.439
We'll see I'll tell you what we got.

1136
01:12:25.800 --> 01:12:33.760
Yeah, Well, are you ready for the tarot. All right,

1137
01:12:34.079 --> 01:12:40.960
so we just want a little deeper insight into Lonnie's story.

1138
01:12:42.359 --> 01:12:43.840
Do you want to cut the cards or do you

1139
01:12:43.880 --> 01:12:45.319
want me to do it? You're like, what are you?

1140
01:12:45.399 --> 01:12:47.840
What do you feel like? I think she feels like

1141
01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:48.880
she wants to do it.

1142
01:12:49.359 --> 01:12:50.279
Okay, I'll do it.

1143
01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:53.239
You're just so like connected.

1144
01:12:53.319 --> 01:12:57.439
I feel like we got that card like three times already.

1145
01:12:58.600 --> 01:12:59.520
What is happening?

1146
01:13:00.199 --> 01:13:05.079
Yeah, it's the King of Pentacles in reverse.

1147
01:13:06.199 --> 01:13:10.359
Holy shit, this is actually I didn't think this was

1148
01:13:10.640 --> 01:13:11.279
going to work.

1149
01:13:12.399 --> 01:13:13.600
I didn't think it made sense.

1150
01:13:13.880 --> 01:13:15.920
It works. Every time you think it's not gonna work.

1151
01:13:16.159 --> 01:13:17.479
The universe knows what's up.

1152
01:13:18.159 --> 01:13:24.159
Holy fucking shit. Okay, all right, so can you see it?

1153
01:13:25.840 --> 01:13:27.479
Yes, kind of yes.

1154
01:13:27.960 --> 01:13:31.680
So we drew the King of Pentacles and this deck

1155
01:13:31.800 --> 01:13:35.760
is actually specifically one that I was gifted this Christmas.

1156
01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:38.760
It's the Pacific Northwest tarot deck.

1157
01:13:38.920 --> 01:13:40.039
So it's all perfect.

1158
01:13:40.399 --> 01:13:45.800
Yeah, it's like native plans and animals and okay, so

1159
01:13:45.840 --> 01:13:54.119
our keywords are security, material, success, pragmatism, stability, strength, and

1160
01:13:54.199 --> 01:13:58.199
worldly power. And I think this makes a lot of

1161
01:13:58.239 --> 01:14:01.159
sense when we talk about the description of the card.

1162
01:14:02.199 --> 01:14:03.760
Just wait for it. Okay.

1163
01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:07.800
In many decks This king sits on a throne and

1164
01:14:07.840 --> 01:14:12.920
wears rich garments and a crown. Sometimes he appears with

1165
01:14:13.039 --> 01:14:19.840
a bull h symbol of strength, virility, and tenacity.

1166
01:14:21.479 --> 01:14:22.159
I'm thinking like.

1167
01:14:22.479 --> 01:14:26.920
Bowl like strength, virility. Let's just that it's too weird.

1168
01:14:29.399 --> 01:14:33.079
In a reading, he may represent an actual person, in

1169
01:14:33.119 --> 01:14:37.560
which case he's usually a mature man who exercises worldly

1170
01:14:37.640 --> 01:14:42.199
power and authority. We do it in the reverse. The

1171
01:14:42.279 --> 01:14:47.800
King of Pentacles in reverse indicates sluggishness, delays, and or

1172
01:14:47.880 --> 01:14:55.359
obstacles to material success. Sometimes it shows low energy or insecurity.

1173
01:14:55.479 --> 01:14:57.600
You feel stuck, but you don't have the drive to

1174
01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:01.159
get you out of your rut. If the card represents

1175
01:15:01.199 --> 01:15:07.279
an actual person, he may be mercenary, course, dull, witted,

1176
01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:08.840
or even corrupt.

1177
01:15:09.760 --> 01:15:13.079
Huh sounds kind of like the person who might have

1178
01:15:13.159 --> 01:15:18.600
done it or the system. Yeah, that too, It could

1179
01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:21.319
be a lot of dull things.

1180
01:15:22.079 --> 01:15:26.119
Well, I mean mercenary, jesus, I mean that's a what

1181
01:15:26.159 --> 01:15:26.760
does that mean?

1182
01:15:27.079 --> 01:15:29.439
That's dark wanting stuff?

1183
01:15:30.039 --> 01:15:34.520
Oh okay, Well, and I think of mercenary as.

1184
01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:39.239
Like a mercenary in like the militant sense too.

1185
01:15:39.840 --> 01:15:42.199
Yeah, yeah, will need to hurt you for stuff.

1186
01:15:42.319 --> 01:15:49.760
Yeah, I mean I don't like that and course, my god.

1187
01:15:50.439 --> 01:15:53.800
I mean, which would fit well with the concept of

1188
01:15:54.520 --> 01:16:02.600
someone willing to assault based on perceived at endy, Yeah,

1189
01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:05.720
you're not who I thought you were in a literal

1190
01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:08.960
biological sense, and so I'm going to be eating death

1191
01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:13.279
with a tire iron that's pretty coarse, you know. Opting

1192
01:16:13.439 --> 01:16:18.560
not to take the cash kind of all that says

1193
01:16:18.600 --> 01:16:21.159
to me is that the cash may have been blood stained.

1194
01:16:22.680 --> 01:16:24.399
I mean, that's a really valid point.

1195
01:16:25.159 --> 01:16:28.119
And so you don't want to want to back into

1196
01:16:28.119 --> 01:16:32.800
the seven to eleven, right and have them be like, hey, dude,

1197
01:16:32.840 --> 01:16:36.159
I can't help but notice that you're paying with money

1198
01:16:36.239 --> 01:16:43.560
that's actively bloody. Sup with that? So you know, beatings

1199
01:16:43.600 --> 01:16:46.039
like usually if you're if you're going to rob somebody.

1200
01:16:45.720 --> 01:16:48.800
You do that first, right, that's.

1201
01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:51.760
And then you you beat them, so it doesn't sound

1202
01:16:51.800 --> 01:16:54.720
like robbery was the motive, and then they're not going

1203
01:16:54.760 --> 01:16:57.960
to take the money afterwards because it probably wasn't in

1204
01:16:58.000 --> 01:16:59.560
the best condition.

1205
01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:01.079
That's contaminated.

1206
01:17:01.279 --> 01:17:07.359
Yeah, well, I hate all of that. What happens helpful

1207
01:17:07.479 --> 01:17:09.439
message that you were well.

1208
01:17:09.279 --> 01:17:15.000
But that's what say the car does kind of reflect. Yeah,

1209
01:17:15.560 --> 01:17:18.439
I think more the reverse side, you know, the reverse

1210
01:17:18.479 --> 01:17:22.119
side more sort of toward. What kind of mindset do

1211
01:17:22.199 --> 01:17:24.119
you need to do something like this is you need

1212
01:17:24.159 --> 01:17:27.760
to be pretty coarse and dehumanizing and you know, mercenary,

1213
01:17:27.800 --> 01:17:33.239
maybe not wanting the cash, but wanting something and willing

1214
01:17:33.279 --> 01:17:37.960
to hurt to get it. That's not that's not far

1215
01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:39.960
out of the league from what you've been talking about.

1216
01:17:40.960 --> 01:17:43.560
Oh my gosh, that I mean, that was so well put.

1217
01:17:43.920 --> 01:17:46.319
I honestly have.

1218
01:17:49.960 --> 01:17:52.079
Today perfect.

1219
01:17:52.239 --> 01:17:55.319
Yeah it was entirely not perfect, but it was.

1220
01:17:55.600 --> 01:18:02.680
Yeah, imperfection is perfect. Yeah. All right, Well, thanks for

1221
01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:03.079
coming on.

1222
01:18:03.159 --> 01:18:03.800
It was so fun.

1223
01:18:03.800 --> 01:18:06.000
I can wait for you to come back.

1224
01:18:06.159 --> 01:18:08.039
Yeah.

1225
01:18:08.399 --> 01:18:10.680
So, for all of you that are listening, if you

1226
01:18:10.720 --> 01:18:13.920
have any true crime or paranormal stories that you want

1227
01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:18.119
us to share, maybe with the whole Pacific Northwest.

1228
01:18:17.720 --> 01:18:20.119
Yes, we would love to read them on the pod.

1229
01:18:20.800 --> 01:18:23.119
Yes we will read them out.

1230
01:18:22.960 --> 01:18:26.119
Loud, not just in our heads.

1231
01:18:26.279 --> 01:18:30.560
Yes, they don't have to be from the Pacific Northwest.

1232
01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:34.840
If you would like to share, email us at PNW

1233
01:18:35.239 --> 01:18:39.760
hauntsand Homicides at gmail dot com. It's all spelled out,

1234
01:18:39.880 --> 01:18:44.319
no special characters, super duper EASYPC.

1235
01:18:44.520 --> 01:18:48.560
Follow us on Instagram and Facebook. Same thing as the

1236
01:18:48.640 --> 01:18:52.640
email at P ANDW. Hanson homicides all spelled out, no

1237
01:18:52.760 --> 01:18:56.880
special characters. Please also rate and review us on whatever

1238
01:18:56.960 --> 01:19:00.079
platform you're listening to, and check out our stories on

1239
01:19:00.119 --> 01:19:05.800
social media because our mein game is hot. Agreed and

1240
01:19:05.880 --> 01:19:09.159
if you agree like Caitlin, you can also find us

1241
01:19:09.199 --> 01:19:12.199
on Patreon and support the show bitchin.

1242
01:19:14.800 --> 01:19:17.640
I had surgery yesterday, which I get it stupid that

1243
01:19:17.720 --> 01:19:20.560
I'm sitting at my desk now, but it's not like

1244
01:19:20.600 --> 01:19:23.159
it's a high maintenance kind of like I'm just sitting here.

1245
01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:27.439
Might as well do something fun instead of moping, which

1246
01:19:27.479 --> 01:19:29.119
I did all day, you know, like like you said

1247
01:19:29.159 --> 01:19:32.720
good at them, and so yesterday I'm literally sitting in

1248
01:19:32.760 --> 01:19:37.279
the waiting room at the at the hospital. I'm already

1249
01:19:37.319 --> 01:19:40.479
they've already given like they literally hand out atavan and

1250
01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:41.399
she walk in the door.

1251
01:19:43.079 --> 01:19:43.560
Where is this?

1252
01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:47.560
I'm like, this is a great idea, Like you just

1253
01:19:47.840 --> 01:19:51.520
double fish in them, you know. So, and apparently a

1254
01:19:51.600 --> 01:19:54.119
thing that I do when I have adavanas I invite

1255
01:19:54.159 --> 01:19:59.880
people on my show. So it's like sitting in the way,

1256
01:20:00.199 --> 01:20:02.800
I'm a little bit stone inviting people on my podcast.

1257
01:20:02.840 --> 01:20:05.680
And I was like, technology is wonderful. Nature is returning

1258
01:20:05.720 --> 01:20:07.079
to the normal.

1259
01:20:06.880 --> 01:20:13.039
You know, did anyone say yes, absolutely, go Oh my goodness. Okay,

1260
01:20:13.039 --> 01:20:15.159
well stay tuned for that because we are gonna have

1261
01:20:15.199 --> 01:20:17.920
some really interesting guests coming up on your.

1262
01:20:17.840 --> 01:20:21.439
Show for me as well.

1263
01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:24.880
Really no kidding.

1264
01:20:25.079 --> 01:20:28.600
Hey, listen, sometimes good things come out of a weird

1265
01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:29.760
medical trip.

1266
01:20:30.399 --> 01:20:35.119
Apparently, no one give any of that to Caitlin. She's

1267
01:20:35.199 --> 01:20:35.800
done enough.