June 11, 2026

Deborah "Debe" Atrops: If Anything Happens to Me | Beaverton, Oregon

Deborah "Debe" Atrops: If Anything Happens to Me | Beaverton, Oregon
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In November 1988, Deborah "Debe" Atrops left a hair appointment in Tigard, Oregon and never came home. When she was found — what investigators discovered would haunt Washington County for decades.

Debe was 30 years old. She was a mother to an eight-month-old daughter. She had told a friend: "If anything happens to me, Bob did it."

It would take decades, a new cold case unit, and a trial that raised as many questions as it answered to bring this case into a courtroom.

But the Washington County Sheriff's Office still lists her case as unsolved on their website. The conviction is under appeal. And the forensic evidence at the center of the trial has left observers, legal experts, and at least one investigative reporter wondering whether Washington County may find itself litigating this case again.

Whether justice was served is something you'll have to decide for yourself.

Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Spreaker, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts. Sources
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On December first, nineteen eighty eight, at approximately nine am,

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a city public works employee called Beaverton Police to report

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a suspicious abandoned vehicle at the dead end of Southwest

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Murray Road near Cholsbury Road.

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It's spooky to think of like a missings person car

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being found on a dead end.

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It's just like it. Don't like that vibe.

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I don't like it either. It's not giving good anything vibes.

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Oh, it's giving very dead end vie.

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Very dead yeah, very that. Yeah, I'll like it. A

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little on the nose, you might say, Hi, Cassie, Hi Caitlin,

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Hi creepy people. Oh hellou we. I was like, I'm

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actively forcing my hand down to the table. I'm not waving.

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I'm waving.

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I am still looking at the camera.

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The non existent we'll get back to it.

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If you guys have been missing the videos, it's Cassie's

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fault and we will get back to it.

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We're getting there. We're getting there, Okay. This is PNW

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Hans and Homicides where we chat about true crime, the

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para normal and usually a little bit about my dogs.

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I don't know, whatever's on our mind.

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Anything and everything. We feel like talking about.

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But usually we do have a subject that yeah, truecriber, spooky,

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it's not totally free form. Just to be fair, we

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do a little tarro reading at the end of every

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episode as well for deeper insight into our topic. Inside

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do we get Indeed, this is a really long one,

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so I think I'm gonna just jump into it. This

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is like the longest set of notes that I've had

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in a while, and I feel like there are a

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lot of spots where there's I feel a discussion coming on. Okay,

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I should say, okay, yeah, what if I just have

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nothing to say, I'm just blankly staring at you the

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entire time. Honestly, I would be blown away, and that's

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truly wild behavior. Okay, but okay, also sorry, if you

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guys hear my headphones, I'm creaking.

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Yeah, they're very Uh we're talking about getting new ones.

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Yeah, so join the Patreon, right so we can get

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non creaky headphones. I know, I feel like we really

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liked these at a certain point, but.

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Yeah, we mean they're better. I think there do we

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used to have another set?

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Right? I think we did? Yeah, and they were just

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really hot. Was I feel like my biggest complaint they're

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better than the ones. You know, upgrades need to happen.

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It's been a while since we've done anything now, I

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think because once we got these mike arms for the

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desks and then we got the road caster, I feel

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like we were kind of like, we don't really know anything.

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It's stup a whole studio, man's and everything. We did

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a lot of upgrades, but it's been a minute.

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It's been a minute. And I think headphones on the

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scale of like new computer or roadcast or whatever, to

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like something super small, like a wireless mouse or whatever.

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It's kind of in the middle. It's not like I

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don't think we'll probably spend one thousand dollars on headphones,

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but I hope not. Yeah, I know we easily could.

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I have looked at headphones in recent memory, and definitely

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there are people using headphones that are quite expensive.

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So two thousand of you join our Patreon at a

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dollar tier because we have a dollar tier. There you go,

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you get ad free episode, to get a welcome card

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with a little mini terror reading in it.

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And we can afford one thousand dollars headphones each. I mean,

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that's perfect. That's a it's a worthy goal.

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Yeah, I was going to say, that's a it's a

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like logical purchase, right, absolutely.

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I love that for us and for all of you. Okay,

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remember when I said we were starting just gonna jump

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right into it, and then something happened.

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It was me again, It's my fault, all right.

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Deborah Lee A. Trops was born in June of nineteen

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fifty eight in Florence, Oregon. She went by Debbie according

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to those closest to her. I feel like everybody named

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Deborah goes by Debbie or deb Yeah. Yeah, is your

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name Deborah? Do you go by Debbie? Let us know?

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And most importantly, if you do go by Debbie, how

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do you spell it? Because all of my source material

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shows that, like her nickname, Debbie was spelled d e

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b e. Oh. That's cute. Yeah, I like that.

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That's different.

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I would just assume the normal D e bb y

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yeah or I E yeah.

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I've seen it spelled I guess more ways than I remembered. Well,

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that's cute. I like that. I kind of want it

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to be like the accent e, so it's like debbe

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like babe babe. Yeah. She was described by her stepfather

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Ed Holland and her close friend Darlene Lufkin as warm, ambitious,

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and full of desire for a better life. She was

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the kind of person who made people feel seen, and

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that was something that I felt like was really touching

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about interviews that I saw with her friend Darlene, because

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she was a fairly young single mother in the eighties,

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and you know, she described feeling like it was hard

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for me to maintain like adult friendships because not a

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lot of people want to come and hang out with

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you and your kids. Yeah, and Debbie just you know,

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loved my kids, loved spending time together, and that was like,

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she reminds me of me. Yeah, right, you come and

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hang out with me and my kids all the time. True,

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I do.

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I hang out with everyone's kids kidless.

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But you know, I'm a nanny too, so obviously.

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I have to have love for children.

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Yeah. I think sometimes too, when you don't have your

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own kids, you have maybe some bandwidth that like if

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I were a parent and had my own kids, I

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don't know that I would want to go over to

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somebody else's house and hang out with her, right, I

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don't know. Debbie had married Robert Bob Atrops on June sixth,

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of nineteen eighty seven. Just days after her twenty ninth birthday.

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In March of nineteen eighty eight, the couple had adopted

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a beautiful baby girl named Rihanna. Oh, I know, and

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we're living in Sherwood, Oregon.

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I know where that is where.

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I know everything that I was reading and I watched

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a couple of different I think forty eight Hours or

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and or Dateline. There's like an episode that they talk

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about the case and I kept being like, oh, I

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know where that is. Or I'm like, yeah, no shit,

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your lack you picked the case in the PNW in

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the state living weird. Yeah, I know, never been more

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nerd coded than.

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I wasn't sure if I knew where Florence was, but

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I've heard of it.

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Okay, So Florence is located on the central Oregon coast,

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and I think of the coast, even though like my

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memories of driving through or spending time in Florence aren't

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actually really like of the coast itself. It's more like

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sand dunes, like a lot of people take like ATVs

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and like dirt bikes and stuff like that. Yeah, okay,

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it's between Newport and Cuse Bay.

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That makes sense. Why, I've yeah, definitely heard of it. Yeah.

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Yeah. In late spring of nineteen eighty, Debbie came to

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work crying. She told a coworker that Bob had been

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physically violent toward her. She just rough timing Bobby, Bobby.

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By the time Rihanna was three months old, the marriage

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was falling apart, the couple separating in June of nineteen

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eighty eight. If you're keeping track, they got married in

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June of nineteen eighty seven. Okay, So I was trying

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to think back.

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I was like, what date did she say?

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Yeah, that's sad, that's.

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A very short marriage.

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And then you just have like a few months old baby.

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They literally just adopted a child. Oh good, Bobby, come on, man,

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it's not great timing, I'm gonna say. Debbie and Rihanna

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moved into an apartment in Salem, while Bob stayed in

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the couple's home on Southwest Consulman Road in Sherwood. Oh.

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Sure, make the mom and baby go to an apartment, right.

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I think some of her family kind of lived down

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south in like the Salem area. That's good. Yeah, she

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had she seemed to have like more ties to further

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south in Oregon. Okay, so it seemed like that made sense.

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But yeah, it's like, oh, okay, so you just hang

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out in the house and they'll just move in. Yeah

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it boom, I mean boo for so many reasons. Boo

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bob boo, boo bob boo. Debbie confided in at least

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one friend that shortly before she moved out, Bob had

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choked her. The two were preparing for divorce. After the

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separation was official, Debbie began a romantic relationship with a

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co worker named John Pearson, whom she had met at

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a company picnic in August of nineteen eighty eight. Pearson

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was also separated from his wife. Debbie told friends she

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was worried. She feared Bob had found out about Pearson,

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and that if he had, he might harm her.

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That's so it's fucking scary, Like you can't even just

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live your life. You're not together anymore.

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Yeah, I mean they did have a child together. Yeah,

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so that's kind of a complicating factor. On the evening

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of November twenty ninth, nineteen eighty eight, Debbie A. Drops

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had two things on her schedule. First, a hair appointment

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at a salon called res much else Ooo In Tiger

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to Oregon, second a stop at Bob's home in Sherwood

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to pick up baby Rihanna, who had previously been picked

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up from a babysitter in Newburgh by Bob while Debbie

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was at her appointment. Debbie was expected to arrive at

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Bob's house between seven point thirty and eight pm, but

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Debbie never arrived at Bob's house. No. At nine forty pm,

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Bob called the Tiger Police Department. His words recorded by

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the call with the dispatcher, my wife is running about

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three hours overdue from a hair appointment. I was getting

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a little concerned. He gave Debbie's name, told the dispatcher

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she had been driving a black Honda Accord, and said

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he was calling from Sherwood. This was the first of

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four phone calls that Bob plays the law enforcement regarding

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Debbie that evening. Oh wow, that's a lot of it's

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a lot of calls. Yeah, yeah, and pretty quick too.

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I would say that was something that really drew a

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lot of interest how quickly he got in touch with

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law enforcement.

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I feel like he'd been worried she might have been

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in a car accident or something like that. I would

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probably be worried about I kind of have been like

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three hours, right.

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And obviously this is well before it was commonplace for

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anybody to have his cell phone, right.

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Yeah.

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So in the next call, at ten twenty five pm,

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he told the dispatcher that he had driven the route

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Debbie would have taken and did not locate her vehicle. Wow,

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what searching? The dispatcher tells him, why don't we give

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it another hour and if you haven't heard anything, give

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me a call back. Okay, we're not doing video this time,

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so explain your face just now. It's just I.

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Get it, because it's like the whole you know, twenty

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four hours missing thing.

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It's only been a few hours.

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Not even again you at this point, it's like ten

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twenty five. Yeah, she was supposed to be showing up

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roughly or like seven thirty eight o'clock, so it's been

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like a couple of hours. I get it. But then again,

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it's like what if something, yeah, did happen, and then

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you're like, give it another hour.

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She could be you know, anywhere by then, right, what if.

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She is lying in a ditch, literally on the verge

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of bleeding to death. It is hard because yeah, she's

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an adult. She can, But I think the love of

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concern to me kind of makes sense, because what is

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keeping a mother for two and a half three hours

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just unexpectedly inexplicably not picking up her infant daughter.

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Yeah, that is weird.

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That's unusual to me. That's it gives not good vibes.

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His next two calls were placed at eleven twenty nine

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and eleven thirty four pm.

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Oh okay, off the hook.

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Yeah, well Bet. In the third call, at eleven twenty

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nine pm, he states, Hey, this is Bob A drops again.

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00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:46.159
Have you heard anything or The dispatcher confirms officers have

231
00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.200
checked around, and in turn asks if Bob checked for

232
00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.720
her at the salon Rasmataz. Bob confirms he drove there

233
00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:59.240
but obviously had not located Debbie or her car, and

234
00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:03.720
the dispatcher asks about friends she might have visited. Bob

235
00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:08.200
says no, checked called everyone I can think of. Bob

236
00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:12.039
didn't inform law enforcement that Debbie was currently living in

237
00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:16.919
Salem until the following day, and he reportedly never called

238
00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:21.440
her apartment, so she lives in Salem. He doesn't make

239
00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:24.039
a point of telling law enforcement, By the way, she

240
00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.120
doesn't live here in Sherwood with me she actually lives

241
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:31.279
in Salem because we're separated, right, doesn't come up and

242
00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:34.799
you think you'd call the apartment. She's not supposed to

243
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:36.200
be there at that point in time.

244
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:39.559
But it's logical if you can't find her, like you

245
00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:40.120
call her.

246
00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.440
I mean, couldn't hurt, right, So on the surface that

247
00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.480
seems a bit odd, But she wasn't supposed to be there,

248
00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:51.960
and her stepfather ed Holland had reportedly said he'd been

249
00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:56.519
by her apartment already and she wasn't there. Okay, given

250
00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:00.320
that added context, I'm not sure that those detail ees

251
00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:05.159
feel that significant. Yeah, you know specifically that like, Okay, well,

252
00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.679
why would a call her apartment? I mean, I guess

253
00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.080
it never hurts to just check again, honestly, I still would. Yeah,

254
00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:14.360
but you know, you never know, like what you're going

255
00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:18.879
to do, yea, in kind of a it's a stressful situation, right.

256
00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:21.320
He thought, is you know who? He probably didn't call?

257
00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:25.440
Who? Her new lever ooh Jony boy.

258
00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.320
Yeah, I was like, I can remember his name, Yeah,

259
00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:29.879
but I bet he didn't call him.

260
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.440
You know, No, No, from what I understand, he did not.

261
00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:38.360
On the morning of November thirtieth, nineteen eighty eight, the

262
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:42.519
Washington County Sheriff's Office took an official missing person report.

263
00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:47.759
Debbie's car, a nineteen eighty eight black Honda Accord, was

264
00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:52.639
entered into law enforcement databases. So they're, you know, keeping

265
00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.320
their eyes peeled for that bad boy that's all brand

266
00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:01.320
new car back in. Oh yeah, she's sweet. I had

267
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:05.080
a eighty eight Hondo Cord. Oh nice? Yeah?

268
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:05.600
What color?

269
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.759
It was like chocolate brown? You actually it was a

270
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:16.919
really pretty like shimmery brown. Okay, but unfortunately, uh, the

271
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:22.120
chocolate brown leather interior was an unfortunate choice for a

272
00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:27.320
vehicle that did not have air conditioning. Brown. Yeah, bella

273
00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:32.919
Swan's favorite color. If you get that reference comment below.

274
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:37.000
And you know what, every time, every time I was

275
00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.919
driving around, especially like I remember driving down to Salem ironically,

276
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.679
you know we're talking about, oh yeah, driving back and

277
00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:50.279
forth from Salem in Hillsboro in that car in the summer,

278
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:52.960
it felt like I was in war torn Phoenix.

279
00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:54.879
I can't imagine.

280
00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:01.639
On December first, nineteen eighty eight, at a approximately nine am,

281
00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:06.160
a city public works employee called Beaverton Police to report

282
00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:10.680
a suspicious abandoned vehicle at the dead end of Southwest

283
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.559
Murray Road near Scholesbury Road.

284
00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:15.640
Is it still a dead end?

285
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:16.359
Uh?

286
00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:19.599
No, I feel like I don't.

287
00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:23.240
I don't see there being dead ends on those roads,

288
00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:28.839
not so specifically. They're very built up these days. And

289
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.559
it's kind of the spot, the very specific spot where

290
00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:35.599
they found her car. It's like kind of on the

291
00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:40.640
backside of an apartment complex that was like brand new

292
00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:46.839
at the time. So crazy, Yeah, crazy because I've lived

293
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:50.079
like right in that little stretch of like Tigered and

294
00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:55.839
Beaverton multiple times over the years. But that was unsettling.

295
00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:59.920
It's spooky to think of like a missings person car

296
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:01.720
being found on a dead end.

297
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:04.559
It just like it. Don't like that vibe.

298
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:08.960
I don't like it either. It's not giving good anything vibes. No,

299
00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.519
it's giving very dead end vibe. Very dead Yeah, very yeah.

300
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:15.200
Oh like it a little on the nose, you might say.

301
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:18.319
It was parked at the edge of woods near a

302
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:23.200
construction site. The car had no license plates, the driver's

303
00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:25.880
window was rolled down, and the keys were on the

304
00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:26.720
driver's seat.

305
00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:28.000
Hmmm.

306
00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:32.599
Frost covered the windows, suggesting it had been there overnight

307
00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:37.200
or longer. Witnesses later confirmed it had been parked there

308
00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:43.880
since early November thirtieth, approximately five miles from Bob's Sherwood home,

309
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.200
and no one took it. I mean it was like

310
00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:53.079
basically overnight at some point to like roughly nine am.

311
00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:54.240
Still, I don't know.

312
00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:58.400
Yeah, it was definitely in a spot where there wouldn't

313
00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:00.599
have been a lot of passers by. And you have

314
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:03.279
to remember too that in nineteen eighty eight, that like

315
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.799
particular part of like right there on the border of

316
00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:11.000
essentially Beaverton and Tigered, it was nowhere near as densely

317
00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:12.759
populated as it is now.

318
00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:14.960
That is true, very farmland y.

319
00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:21.079
Yeah. Absolutely. When officers looked in the trunk, they found

320
00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:26.200
deb A Trops, sadly deceased. No no, no, no, well, god,

321
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:26.880
good thing.

322
00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:27.559
No one took it.

323
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.480
Yeah, yeah, that'd be a little upsetting. You steal a car,

324
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:35.160
you get a lot more than new bargain for. I

325
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:37.759
don't know why that. I was not expecting her to

326
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.960
be in the trunk. Trunk, like, I feel like.

327
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.440
That's kind of where a lot of people are found,

328
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.200
but for some reason I wasn't expecting that with this one.

329
00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:49.640
Well that or sometimes you know, they're just finding this

330
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:53.960
person who's missing, they're just locating their abandoned vehicle and

331
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.640
they're not with the vehicle, and then it's like, shit,

332
00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.559
where is this person? That's where I thought it was going. Yeah, yeah,

333
00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.720
very okay, yeah, dead end. I thought it would be

334
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:06.759
kind of you.

335
00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:09.759
You did foreshadow it, and it didn't. I didn't wasn't

336
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:10.200
pick up.

337
00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:12.279
Like I'm not picking up what you're putting down at

338
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:17.359
a tool. Her blue coat and black heels were covered

339
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.960
in mud. Based on the positioning of her body, investigators

340
00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.480
believe she had died elsewhere and then then placed face

341
00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.319
down in the trunk after her death that I don't

342
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.319
know why, but something about being put in the trunk,

343
00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:37.640
specifically face down, really bothers me. I think it just

344
00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:43.200
feels so disrespectful to place this person face down. Yeah,

345
00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:46.200
like you're kind of just yea throw her in there, yeah,

346
00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:49.839
like wherever. It just feels I don't know, it just

347
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:54.240
feels disrespectful. I just can you not mess up? Don't

348
00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:57.480
mess up my face or my hair. I may be deceased,

349
00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:00.400
but like this is how I don't. I don't know,

350
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:06.960
she just got her hair done. I know. Her autopsy

351
00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:12.359
later confirmed Debbie's cause of death as manual strangulation following

352
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.519
a physical assault, though there did not appear to be

353
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:17.519
any signs of a sexual assault.

354
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:20.559
Well, I mean, thank goodness, but still she's dead and

355
00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:21.319
was assaulted.

356
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.920
Investigators noticed something else at the scene. It looked as

357
00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:28.599
though someone had tried to wipe down the hood of

358
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:33.759
the car. There were broad cloth swipes. It looked like

359
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.160
across the surface like somebody had, you know, like with

360
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:40.720
their coat sleeve or whatever.

361
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:43.480
But didn't do a good, good enough job to like

362
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:44.119
I gut.

363
00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:47.720
Yeah, I mean, it just was obvious because it probably

364
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:53.920
started like condensation was forming and oils or any number

365
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.640
of like other substances that may have been present on

366
00:21:58.279 --> 00:22:01.480
whatever material that they used to it. Like, I don't know,

367
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.920
it just is. It's weird. It's a weird thing. I

368
00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:07.960
think they were trying to remove like fingerprints or something.

369
00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:12.920
I think that's yeah, And literally, law enforcement said, it

370
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:16.079
literally just looked as if someone had been maybe trying

371
00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:20.680
to destroy fingerprints. Detective O'Connell and his partner went to

372
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:23.799
Bob's home to tell him they had found his wife's body.

373
00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:28.440
A witness who observed Bob after that notification later said

374
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:33.440
that Bob was very calm, much calmer than I would expect.

375
00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.599
I think it bears repeating to always say you never

376
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:39.720
know how you're going to react. People react in a

377
00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:45.400
myriad of ways. There's no one normal way to react.

378
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:49.160
Some people do go into like a very quiet calm,

379
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.799
what appears calm from the outside, it's kind of more

380
00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.440
of like a shock response. Yeah, I get that. If

381
00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:59.440
people don't react the way you maybe would, it seems odd.

382
00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:04.400
M I'm just putting that out there. There's no one

383
00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:08.319
correct response. Also, keep in mind, at this point they

384
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:12.559
had been separated for several months, right nearly, she'd been

385
00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:15.079
missing for you know, a couple of days.

386
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:17.920
Yeah, so it's like you kind of run through the

387
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.279
horrible scenarios in your head to like kind of prepare,

388
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:22.519
I think for the news because it's.

389
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:23.519
Very much how I am.

390
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.640
Like, I'm very.

391
00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:29.559
Calm in situations, like when I got called that my

392
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:32.400
dog was dying, like I kind of just showed up

393
00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:34.519
and was like, Okay, where is she, Let's get her

394
00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:38.119
in the car. Let's got like it's very calm. Like

395
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:40.680
a fire started in my friend's oven one time, and

396
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:43.279
I was like, guys, there's a fire in the oven.

397
00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:44.160
Like just like.

398
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:50.039
Some people reacted in like very pragmatic ways. So and

399
00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:55.359
I feel like it's really unfair to judge too much

400
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.759
based on just their initial reaction. Sometimes people need a

401
00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:01.559
little bit of time to process.

402
00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:02.079
So don't judge me.

403
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:05.119
Yeah, I mean, I think horrible half a fire thing

404
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.319
a little bit, just a little bit. From the beginning,

405
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:14.119
investigators had no shortage of potential suspects. Debbie's estranged husband,

406
00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:17.319
Bob was one name on a list that also included

407
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:22.319
John Pearson, the coworker slash new boyfriend she had recently

408
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.720
begun singing along with another ex boyfriend. I'm not really

409
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:31.400
sure why they seemed to even go to him as

410
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:34.799
like a potential. I wish there was a little bit

411
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:38.400
more to tell me, like how they connected dots to like, oh,

412
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.440
we should also look at he's maybe a possibility because

413
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.200
I'm like, girl, he's like three Kevin Bacon's back right.

414
00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:47.920
Maybe he had some sort of a record or something.

415
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:53.000
And I didn't believes it interesting that third former flame

416
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.200
was Jeff Friedberg, who had loaned Debbie eight thousand dollars

417
00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.240
to buy her car. I don't know it just even

418
00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:03.599
that it just doesn't make sense, and I just anyways.

419
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.079
Maybe he's like they're thinking he's coming to collect a debt,

420
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:08.920
so that.

421
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.359
That is exactly like, that's one of the avenues that

422
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:14.400
they explored, which felt kind of ridiculous to me, to

423
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.839
be honest. But he was apparently a fairly wealthy man

424
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.079
living in Salem, so I guess they both lived in Salem.

425
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:24.519
He was living in the Salem area, And there was

426
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:29.720
no evidence of any discord related to finances because apparently

427
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:31.880
he was pretty wealthy. Like I said, so.

428
00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:35.000
I'm not going to kill someone for eight thousand dollars.

429
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.480
No, that he loaned her because he cared about her.

430
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.240
And you know, he told investigators that he had been

431
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.960
home all night except to get dinner. And it doesn't

432
00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.720
seem like he faced a super high level of scrutiny

433
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.440
by law enforcement. And if he did, and maybe that

434
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.200
just wasn't made clear to me through my research, it

435
00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:03.200
certainly didn't last because they started looking elsewhere. Can't imagine where. Yeah. Meanwhile,

436
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:07.359
by comparison, Bob didn't have an alibi that could be corroborated.

437
00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:12.200
Uh oh. His phone records confirmed no outgoing calls were

438
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:16.920
placed from his phone. His home phone, a landline is

439
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:20.680
literally connected to your wall, remember that on that night,

440
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:25.440
and we know that he placed calls to several of

441
00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:29.200
her family members and friends. Obviously he made multiple calls

442
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:33.200
to nine one one, so a lot of questions. I'm

443
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.039
going to explain to you what I can. Okay, that's

444
00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:38.599
the best way for me to put that, I think

445
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.559
at this point. One theory says Bob was placing the

446
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:46.359
phone calls while he was elsewhere, possibly killing Debbie and

447
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:51.720
disposing of evidence, while another theory, perhaps more generous to

448
00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:55.720
the defense, would say that he placed the calls at payphones,

449
00:26:56.119 --> 00:27:00.759
which obviously were super readily available in nineteen eighty eight. Ultimately,

450
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.799
we know he placed several calls to law enforcement as

451
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:08.000
well as Debbie's family and friends, but we can't confirm

452
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:12.440
his whereabouts when those calls were placed. For certain, that

453
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:17.119
is very weird, very weird, and there is something else.

454
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:19.720
We'll pull it that threat a little bit more later.

455
00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:26.279
I feel like, based on the information that I have found,

456
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:31.319
and I'm not an expert on really anything, but it's

457
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:36.680
certainly not on like nineteen eighties phone technology, I feel

458
00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:42.440
like nobody really can say they one hundred percent know

459
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:48.119
exactly what happened in that specific instance, there's some weird

460
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.720
stuff with the calls, for sure, some possibilities, I should say.

461
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.759
At the time, he was working for Allied Building Products,

462
00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:02.480
a wholesale distributor of various construction materials, including roofing materials

463
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.160
to projects under construction. Practically just a stones throw away

464
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.599
from where her car was found. Oh shit, meaning he

465
00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:14.720
knew the location, he was familiar with it. It would

466
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:18.359
also come to light that Debbie had feared him. According

467
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:23.839
two close friends of hers, he choked her. Oh I

468
00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:25.000
don't like that.

469
00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:27.960
You said it. In the beginning. I kind of forgot that.

470
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:32.279
You had said that that he choked her. He choked her, Yeah,

471
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:35.279
and then she was strangled. I don't I don't like that.

472
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:37.440
I don't like that. I don't like that. Well, and

473
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:40.839
there's a lot of statistics that have come out over

474
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:43.599
the years that basically like, oh my god, and I'm

475
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:47.720
totally gonna botch it. I don't remember the exact sat.

476
00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:52.119
I want to say that in a domestic violent situation,

477
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:55.200
your partner has choked you, you are like seventy two

478
00:28:55.319 --> 00:29:00.079
percent more likely to be killed by that individual. Oh

479
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:03.680
my god. And it makes sense because that is violent

480
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.000
and it is personal I hate that.

481
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:06.799
I just don't like.

482
00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:07.799
It's really upsetting.

483
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.000
I don't I never liked anyone like touching my throat

484
00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:11.759
or anything like.

485
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:14.200
No, would you. It's not a normal thing to do

486
00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:14.920
touch me.

487
00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:17.000
I don't like it.

488
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.079
Probably don't touch me at all, but definitely don't do that.

489
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:24.119
I mean, under the right circumstances. But you know, WHI

490
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.519
should be comfortable. Yeah.

491
00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:29.599
It would also come to light that Debbie had feared him,

492
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.880
specifically stating if anything happens to me, Bob did it,

493
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:40.000
a hunting statement. In hindsight, the underscored domestic violence attested

494
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.680
to by Debbie's closest confidants.

495
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.480
That's not the first time we've heard that either.

496
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.920
Now, No, it's alarming the number of cases that I

497
00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:55.119
can think back to a very specific moment in time

498
00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:57.839
where the victim has said, if anything happens to me,

499
00:29:58.039 --> 00:30:02.160
this person did it. Bob hired a lawyer a week

500
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:06.000
after Debbie's body was found and declined to take a polygraph.

501
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:07.440
WHI that's a little weird.

502
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.000
It is a little bit weird, But honestly, if you're

503
00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:15.920
the ex husband and they find your estranged wife's body

504
00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:20.119
five miles down the road from your house, and knowing

505
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:23.160
what we know now about polygraphs, like, you shouldn't agree

506
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:25.880
to take one. Nothing really good comes out of it,

507
00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:29.920
because even if you come out looking like you passed,

508
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:35.119
it's not admissible in court typically, So what do you

509
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:38.680
stand to gain that for? Yeah, yeah, it's all part

510
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.640
of at this point in time, it's all part of

511
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:45.039
a psychological game that they're playing with you. Back then

512
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:50.279
that was pretty readily used in courtrooms. So it's just

513
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:53.480
interesting that, Yeah, back then you would decline to take one.

514
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:57.079
Mm hmm, like I feel like declining anything. But maybe

515
00:30:57.079 --> 00:30:58.559
that was from his lawyer's advice.

516
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:00.880
I don't know. Yeah, it's hard to say. I mean

517
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:03.720
that very well could be because he got a lawyer

518
00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:04.240
right away.

519
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:06.839
I mean I definitely don't think that's weird. I feel

520
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:09.039
like that's yeah, you probably need to do that.

521
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:13.160
I think back then that stuff was probably more unusual

522
00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:16.920
than it maybe would be by today's standards. Who's just

523
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:20.000
ahead of his time perhaps. And I want to say,

524
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:23.400
we're going to come back to John Pearson, her boyfriend

525
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.000
at the time, Johnny p just kind of put a

526
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:28.079
pin in him for now, because we are going to

527
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:31.880
talk about him somemorew but we're going to go on different.

528
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:33.799
Nurriction, pinning him up on the wall right now.

529
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:40.720
Law enforcement investigated for months, but limitations of available DNA

530
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:45.000
testing in nineteen eighty eight meant investigators could not connect

531
00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:49.319
Bob or another specific suspect physically to the scene or

532
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:53.799
to Debby's body. By the fall of nineteen ninety, no

533
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:57.559
charges had been filed, and the case went cold. In

534
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.960
the years that followed, Bob remarried. He raised Rihanna, the

535
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:05.200
infant daughter he had shared with Debbie. He built a

536
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:08.759
life in Newburg, Oregon. Though the case was reviewed by

537
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:13.599
several detectives over the years, it remained cold, so Debbie's

538
00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:19.000
family and friends waited. In May twenty twenty one, the

539
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:23.920
Washington County District Attorney's Office Cold Case Unit, formed in

540
00:32:24.039 --> 00:32:28.200
twenty twenty partnered with the Washington County Sheriff's Office to

541
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:33.079
reopen the investigation into Debbie's murder. The investigation was led

542
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:38.559
by Detective Kevin Winfield. Bob's last interview prior to the

543
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:43.920
cold case reopening had been in nineteen ninety. Wow, that

544
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:48.559
would be crazy. When investigators spoke with him again in

545
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:54.599
twenty twenty two, his story had changed. He now said

546
00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:59.039
he had used an MCI card supplied by his employer

547
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:03.279
at the time, out light building products. Okay, so this

548
00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:07.880
is something that's different about history. I'm gonna explain it

549
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:10.319
as best as I possibly can as someone who's not

550
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:15.559
really used this thing. Okay, A detail that had not

551
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:19.839
appeared in thirty two years of prior statements. Okay, so

552
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.200
this is pretty significant that all of a sudden thirty

553
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:27.039
two years later. He If your story is changing thirty

554
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:31.119
two years later, maybe you know your memory is different.

555
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:33.319
I don't know. I can make a case for both

556
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:37.319
sides of what that means. What it should do instead

557
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:41.200
is tell you, uh more about it. In nineteen eighty eight,

558
00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:47.559
using an MCI calling card required inputting approximately sixteen digits

559
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:50.880
of a card number followed by another six to eight

560
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:56.640
digit code. So that was used for essentially making like

561
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:01.599
long distance calls. And remember a lot of were long distance,

562
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:05.200
Like we don't think about that as much anymore, like

563
00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:09.519
other than international calling. Like you can call pretty much

564
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:13.719
anybody anywhere here in the country now and no big deal.

565
00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:14.920
That is true.

566
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:19.679
Yeah, I do remember that because I had a friend

567
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.320
in like Vancouver, yeah, and I got to call her

568
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.159
and it was long distance, long distance from Hillsboro.

569
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:29.159
From the Hillsboro, that's insane, right, Yeah, you don't even

570
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:31.840
think about that anymore. But that's like in our lifetime.

571
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:36.079
I forgot about that. Yep. Remember when you could dial

572
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:38.360
a phone number and there was no such thing as

573
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:38.760
an area.

574
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.519
Oh, I do remember that. And then it's like we

575
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:45.599
got to add three extra dishes. Weize three extra dishes?

576
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:51.239
Oh the upheopal just kidding. I've only heard about it

577
00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:52.599
in legends from my elders.

578
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:55.480
I told you we had one of those style.

579
00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:58.920
Like oh, the rotary farah, Yeah, one of those for

580
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:05.039
a long time. Prosecutor Chris Luhman told a jury, if

581
00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:09.920
you're frantically looking for your wife, why take the time

582
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:13.880
to do that and enter all those numbers. According to

583
00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:17.679
the defense, the long distance calls may not have shown

584
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:22.199
up in his home phone records due to faulty equipment

585
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:26.599
because of the MCI card. I mean that, which makes

586
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:30.280
sense if you have this calling card from your employer,

587
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:35.880
Like long distance calls were not cheap? Yeah, like yeah,

588
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:39.440
I mean maybe initially he wasn't that frantic, so maybe

589
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.519
entering the digits so that he wasn't going to pay

590
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:45.480
a bunch of fees for long distance. Like maybe that

591
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:50.519
makes more sense than the prosecutor's statement would imply. He

592
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:52.920
also used it to call the police though, to like

593
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:56.199
report her missing. It's a great question because that wouldn't

594
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:59.800
have been a long distance call. Right, But that was

595
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:02.760
on his home phone record either, right, So where did

596
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.719
he place that call from? I don't know. The faulty

597
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:11.639
equipment thing is interesting. Not an expert in that arena,

598
00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:16.920
I don't know, hm, But we know he placed all

599
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:17.719
of those calls.

600
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:20.599
The calls not coming from inside.

601
00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:25.199
That yeah, exactly or allegedly are not coming. Yeah, it's

602
00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:29.599
hard to say. The cold case team also pursued two

603
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:35.320
significant new forensic avenues. Debbie's coat as well as soil

604
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:38.159
samples were sent off for additional testing.

605
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:42.519
I love this part. Don't shake your head at me.

606
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:46.559
I'm so fucking angry about this. I could talk about

607
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.159
this case for like a week straight and like until

608
00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:55.639
my eyes bleed. And the Oregon State Police Crime Lab

609
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:59.679
conducted testing of the coat while the FBI lab received

610
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:05.239
and tested the soil samples. The FBI reportedly concluded that

611
00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:08.559
the mud on Debbie's tire did not match the mud

612
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:13.119
where her car was found, but that it was indistinguishable

613
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:18.159
from the mud on Bob's front lawn in color, composition,

614
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:25.559
and texture. Well, shit, okay, your reaction is exactly that's

615
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:28.719
exactly what you would expect to happen. Here's the thing.

616
00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:34.119
That word choice is deliberate and meaningful in forensic science.

617
00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:41.400
There's a crucial distinction between a match and indistinguishable. Oh,

618
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:47.000
it is explicitly not a positive identification of common origin.

619
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:50.440
Well it sounds like one to me, I know, yep,

620
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:51.679
uh huh.

621
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:55.320
It means the analyst could not tell the two samples

622
00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:01.199
apart using available methodology, which is a con considerably weaker

623
00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:05.000
statement than saying they are a match. This is the

624
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:09.639
same dirt they're saying they can't tell them apart, which

625
00:38:09.639 --> 00:38:14.239
means they're a match, not necessarily. I know. We're going

626
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:18.239
to get into why that is so problematic in this case,

627
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:22.599
because here's the thing. Bob's house five miles away from

628
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:26.159
the crime scene. Remember this, okay, because and I'm going

629
00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:30.079
to get into it. I'm gonna explain, because holy shit,

630
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:33.320
this is why we can't have nice things. Okay, all right,

631
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:38.440
The soil being indistinguishable has since been framed as evidence

632
00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:42.760
that Debbie had been to Bob's property that night, contradicting

633
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:46.800
his claim she hadn't been there in roughly ten days.

634
00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:49.599
I think is what he has said that might be

635
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:53.159
a reasonable argument to make, And admittedly I don't have

636
00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:57.760
any expertise in forensic soil analysis, because as we've established,

637
00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:03.119
I am not an expert in really anything, but forensically speaking,

638
00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:08.800
it seems to stop well short of proof that does

639
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:12.760
not prove that she was on his property. Samples were

640
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:20.119
never taken from any of Pearson or Friedberg's properties, nor

641
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:26.239
reportedly anywhere else for that matter, only from Bob's and

642
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:30.360
the crime scene. Bob's home and where Debbie's vehicle was

643
00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:34.519
discovered were only a handful of miles apart. Debbie's vehicle

644
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:37.679
had been on the property many times previously, as it

645
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:43.800
was her previous residence, so I'd argue without comparative samples

646
00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:48.159
from other locations in the same geographic area, the finding

647
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:52.639
is essentially meaningless as proof of origin. You can't, or

648
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:56.920
maybe I should say, you shouldn't. You perhaps shouldn't establish

649
00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:02.920
uniqueness without ruling out alternatives. It's like correlation versus causation.

650
00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:06.280
In my mind, it's scary. At some point a jury

651
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:11.880
will be presented that finding, along with the prosecution's interpretation

652
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:16.079
of it. We took two samples of dirt from five

653
00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:19.159
miles away. These two places. They took the only samples

654
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:21.760
we have, and we're going to tell you that they're

655
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:25.400
indistinguishable from each other. Well, no shit, Sherlock. You took

656
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:28.320
two samples of dirt from essentially the same neighborhood.

657
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:32.119
Yeah, I could see that probably matches, like the neighbor's yard,

658
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:33.199
and like, you know.

659
00:40:33.559 --> 00:40:37.840
Yeah, exactly, And that's kind of what you need a control.

660
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:39.960
You need to go and take it a couple of

661
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:43.679
other samples from the area. I the dirt, take all

662
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:47.880
of the dirt, and it gets actually so much fucking worse.

663
00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:49.679
It's maddening.

664
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:52.559
I'm so excited about the soil samples.

665
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:57.960
I know, ah dirt. The FBI didn't do anything wrong

666
00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:02.239
in that instance. It's all about how this information is,

667
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:06.880
how it's going to be used. Debbie's coat, stored in

668
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:10.840
evidence since nineteen eighty eight, was submitted to the Oregon

669
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:15.400
State Crime Lab for DNA analysis using techniques unavailable in

670
00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:20.039
nineteen eighty eight. The results were complex. The lab ran

671
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:24.119
three separate tests on the coat. The first two essentially

672
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:29.400
ruled Bob out as being a contributor to that DNA sample.

673
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:34.159
Debbie's other x's were excluded as well. The third test,

674
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:39.599
after adjusting the analysis parameters, produced the likelihood ratio of

675
00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:42.559
one thirty two, meaning it was one hundred and thirty

676
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:46.159
two times more likely that the DNA mixture found on

677
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:51.599
the coat included Bob's contribution than that of a random person.

678
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:54.840
Is that a good number or a bad number?

679
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:58.239
That's a really good question, Cassie. I'm going to explain

680
00:41:58.320 --> 00:41:59.519
that to you at length.

681
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:02.119
Okay, good, I'm.

682
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:05.400
Going to actually explain it like a couple of different ways,

683
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:10.280
because it is truly mind boggling, and I'm like going

684
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.199
to be shaken with rage the whole time. That number,

685
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:16.679
according to the crime lab's own internal scale, is one

686
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:20.920
of the weakest the lab could have gotten, notably just

687
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:25.039
slightly above an inconclusive result. Damn it, I was like,

688
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:28.639
one hundred and thirty two. That sounds pretty dang good. No,

689
00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:33.039
one hundred and thirty two. No, it's definitely not that.

690
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:38.199
The methodology and results of the test were contested by

691
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:42.920
the defense throughout the trial, and I keep alluding to

692
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:47.159
a trial or I'm going to explain. I think you

693
00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:49.880
can probably guess whose trial it is.

694
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:50.960
Bobby Boy.

695
00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:56.119
If you're not sure, I'm gonna tell you. So that

696
00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:59.079
was contested by the defense throughout the trial, but the

697
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:04.079
judge allowed the jury to hear that DNA evidence that

698
00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:09.360
barely better than an inconclusive result, DNA evidence that they

699
00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:15.280
finally got after rerunning it for the third time after

700
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:23.400
adjusting the parameters. Interesting, how did they adjust the parameters? Like,

701
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:26.079
aren't parameters parameters? How do you adjust them?

702
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:32.119
Science? How Cassie's brain does not understand science?

703
00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:37.639
Science? Well, this truth be told, Like, this is very complex.

704
00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:42.199
I didn't fully understand at first why the term likelihood

705
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:46.199
ratio was being used in reference to the DNA test result.

706
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:51.639
So I'm going to explain the methodology used as best

707
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:52.320
as I can.

708
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:55.840
Okay, I'm also like, isn't DNA DNA if it's USU,

709
00:43:55.880 --> 00:43:57.480
If it's not, it's not I don't understand.

710
00:43:57.639 --> 00:44:02.159
That's exactly how we have all come to understand DNA

711
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:09.039
evidence that is not this a sample or swab taken

712
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:12.599
from a piece of evidence or crime scene may contain

713
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:17.679
multiple DNA contributions, not just a victim and a suspect,

714
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.920
but in some cases any number of individuals that came

715
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:26.039
into contact with the person, place, or thing in question. Okay,

716
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:28.480
that makes sense because you know you'd be shedding skin

717
00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:33.960
cells constantly. Yes, yes, good girl, you're sciencing. You can

718
00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:36.239
I have a cookie. Yeah, I'm going to give you

719
00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:39.840
a muffin. Actually, I don't want to brag, but I

720
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:41.639
took forensic science in high school.

721
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.840
Yeah, kind of an expert. We watched a lot of

722
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:46.199
CSI in that class.

723
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:50.679
Oh no, No, it was mostly to point out what

724
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:53.599
they what they did wrong. Okay, cool, cool, cool cool? Okay,

725
00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:56.880
I mean excellent ratings.

726
00:44:56.920 --> 00:44:59.719
And you know, one of the biggest funniest things I

727
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:02.519
think I learned is she was like, it makes no

728
00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:04.760
sense for them to have the lights off and to

729
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:06.840
use flashlights to search for evidence.

730
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:11.159
You want as much fucking light as possible. Anyway that

731
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:15.039
might take away from forensis Yes, I mean that's totally true.

732
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:20.559
Interpreting results trying to figure out what DNA belongs to

733
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:25.679
which of potentially numerous DNA contributors, can be incredibly difficult

734
00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:32.880
for lab analysts. That's where probabilistic genotyping comes in. If

735
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:36.480
you already feel like technology might be ruining everything, consider

736
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:37.760
this your trigger warning.

737
00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:39.119
Uh oh.

738
00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:44.239
For samples with multiple contributors, software programs use algorithms to

739
00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:48.559
calculate the likelihood ratio that a random person's DNA was

740
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:56.320
in the sample mixture versus that of a potential suspect. Okay, so, Cassie.

741
00:45:56.320 --> 00:46:01.079
In this case, what that means is you, your sample, your

742
00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:05.559
DNA is being compared to, like, what's the likelihood that

743
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:09.840
it's someone else's literally just any Joshmo. Okay, so it's

744
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:13.760
you versus random random dude or do debt? Got it?

745
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:16.880
The software then provides a number that the lab will

746
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:21.639
typically help law enforcement or the prosecutor to decipher. An

747
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:25.639
LR of one thirty two means there is roughly a

748
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:28.960
one in one hundred and thirty two chance that a

749
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:35.760
completely random person's DNA would fit the mixture just as well. Okay,

750
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:40.039
I don't like those odds. Yeah. If the crime happened

751
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:43.440
in a large city, a one in one thirty two

752
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:49.239
statistic means thousands of other local residents could also match

753
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:55.960
that DNA sample by pure coincidence. But I thought DNA

754
00:46:56.119 --> 00:47:01.840
was specific. I'm so confused. I know I briefly explained

755
00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:05.480
that third result already, but it's complex, so I want

756
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:07.960
to try to spell it out like as clearly as possible.

757
00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:10.800
And I think you can kind of look at it

758
00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:14.519
a couple of different ways. There's like different analogies, and

759
00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:18.480
reading all of the different examples and kind of explanations

760
00:47:18.519 --> 00:47:21.360
really help me to make sense of it, because on

761
00:47:21.400 --> 00:47:25.880
the surface, none of us know offhand what the standards are,

762
00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:30.559
and like when they're applied to a real world situation,

763
00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:35.199
what does that mean? Like how useful is this data? Essentially?

764
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:37.440
So what about a small town? How many people?

765
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:40.639
I mean, it's the same thing. So out of one

766
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:45.159
hundred and thirty two people, right, an LR of one

767
00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:48.159
thirty two means there is roughly a one in one

768
00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:53.199
hundred thirty two chance that a completely random person's DNA

769
00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:56.079
would fit the mixture just as well. So it could

770
00:47:56.119 --> 00:47:59.119
be Bob, or it could be one in one hundred

771
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:02.039
and thirty two somebody. So if you have a room

772
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:05.360
full of ten thousand people, yeah, but they would, but

773
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:10.559
they didn't, right, And that's not that's that doesn't help

774
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:16.119
their case, Damn it that's not good. Okay, here's the

775
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:20.440
other part that's really upsetting. According to the Defense the

776
00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:24.480
DNA that was found on Debbie's coat color was equivalent

777
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:29.199
to six to seven skin cells. Ever heard of transfer

778
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:32.239
DNA where you just touched something and your DNA is

779
00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:36.440
on it? Pretty much? Okay, yeah, I mean it's pretty

780
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.719
much exactly what it sounds like, the skin cells. That's right.

781
00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:41.159
I told you, smart girls.

782
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:42.880
My DNA is all over this place.

783
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:43.760
Yeah, that's right.

784
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:45.159
I better not ever kill you.

785
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:52.039
It occurs during any number of perfectly normal, frequently non

786
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:57.159
violent types of physical contact, for example, shaking hands with someone.

787
00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:01.000
After shaking hands with John, Paul, Susie, or Jan, they

788
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:05.280
might touch something else that then leads to a faint

789
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:09.159
trace of your DNA being left behind.

790
00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:13.280
This is how I become like a germaphobe.

791
00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:14.039
Mm hmm.

792
00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:19.159
Is because I could be We're all cannibals. We're all

793
00:49:19.239 --> 00:49:23.880
cannibals eating each other's skin cells constantly all day long.

794
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:32.760
So a more advanced transfer evaluation might provide greater context

795
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:35.800
or clarify a result like this, But it would be

796
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:39.280
up to a defense team to hire an independent expert

797
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:43.599
to run such testing interpret the results and then hopefully

798
00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:50.519
convincingly explain them. In twenty twenty two, Detective Winfield interviewed

799
00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:55.119
Bob Atrops and uncovered what seemed like significant discrepancies between

800
00:49:55.159 --> 00:49:59.239
his current retelling of events and his nineteen eighty eight

801
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:04.360
to nineteen ninety statements to police. In February twenty twenty three,

802
00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:07.559
the case was presented to a Washington County grand jury.

803
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:11.239
The grand jury indicted Bob on one count of second

804
00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:16.639
deary murder. Wow. On March I don't think there's enough

805
00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:19.719
evidence for that. I'm really glad you're having that reaction,

806
00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:23.119
because I mean, I'm certainly it's not like I'm reading

807
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:27.039
you a complete trial transcript, but I can have all

808
00:50:27.079 --> 00:50:29.760
of the feelings in the world that maybe he did

809
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:32.920
or didn't do it, but did they prove it beyond

810
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:38.119
a reasonable doubt? I think that's suspect. Yeah, and you're

811
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:40.119
going to find out that we're in pretty good company.

812
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:45.039
On March second, twenty twenty three, at five am, a

813
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:49.280
search warrant was served at Bob Atrop's Newburgh home. He

814
00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:54.119
was arrested without incident. To her shock, his daughter Rihanna

815
00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:58.800
now last name Stevens, received a phone call at that

816
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:02.760
same hour telling her what had happened. Holy shit, I

817
00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:09.199
can't even imagine her yeah reaction to that. This is where,

818
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:12.960
remember I said, put a pin in John. This is

819
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:16.000
where we're going to circle back to John Pearson, Johnny

820
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:20.559
P or alternative suspect as he's frequently been referred to.

821
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:26.280
And if you thought that anything that we knew about

822
00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:34.880
Bob was damning, oh no, oh boy. One of the

823
00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:38.719
most legally significant elements of the trial was the defense's

824
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:42.960
argument that Debbie's boyfriend, John Pearson should have been considered

825
00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:48.199
as an alternative suspect. Pearson had been separated from his

826
00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:51.920
own wife at the time of his relationship with Debbie,

827
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:55.119
and the defense pointed to a detail from his nineteen

828
00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:59.719
eighty eight police interview that they argued was suspicious. In

829
00:51:59.800 --> 00:52:04.800
that nineteen eighty eight interview, Pearson gave what investigators described

830
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:09.480
as oddly specific and accurate details about the contents of

831
00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:13.400
Debbie's car and trunk on the day she was murdered,

832
00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:18.079
including the brand of fast food trash found in her vehicle.

833
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:22.280
I mean, if they're spending time together.

834
00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:27.199
Really good point that's gonna get brought up, that's gonna

835
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:29.559
get brought up. People are going to point to that. Okay,

836
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:31.599
trunk's a little weird, Like you spend a lot of

837
00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:32.239
time in the trunk?

838
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:33.320
Do you do in that trunk?

839
00:52:33.559 --> 00:52:39.000
Yep, pretty much exactly. He also accurately described how Debbie's

840
00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:42.239
body would have had to be positioned for it to

841
00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:45.880
fit in the trunk, which I think maybe one could

842
00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:50.800
argue that just based on the limitations of X size

843
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:57.639
space y sized woman perhaps like did they specifically ask

844
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.360
him these things or is he just it's It sounds

845
00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:04.360
like he was very forthcoming about certain things that were

846
00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:05.519
very weird, like.

847
00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:07.880
Why would you I could see if they're trying to

848
00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:10.079
like trap him and ask him, like how do you

849
00:53:10.119 --> 00:53:11.360
think her body would have fit?

850
00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:12.800
Exactly?

851
00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:15.440
And you have to answer because it's police. I could

852
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:15.760
see that.

853
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:19.719
But if he's just saying it willy nilly, that's fucking weird,

854
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:24.320
fucking weird. It sounds like it was definitely more in

855
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:30.719
the fucking weird column. Okay. Defense attorneys argued in court documents,

856
00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:34.679
this is consistent with what police documented when her car

857
00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:40.280
and body were located. So mister nostrodamis of the crime

858
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:47.039
scene prosecutors and original investigators rejected this framing. They noted

859
00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:50.039
that Pearson worked with police to help track down details

860
00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:53.480
about Debbie after her disappearance, and that his knowledge of

861
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:57.559
her car's contents was consistent with being her boyfriend. It's

862
00:53:57.559 --> 00:54:02.119
a tough sell for me in police never seriously considered

863
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:07.320
Pearson as suspect. I think that's debatable. Perhaps, But while

864
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:10.519
we're talking about John Pearson, let's revisit the topic of DNA.

865
00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:15.920
Vaginal swabs taken during Debbie's autopsy returned a result that

866
00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:20.480
forensic analysts said could not exclude John Pearson as a

867
00:54:20.519 --> 00:54:27.519
contributor with a ninety four point six sextillion to one

868
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:31.719
likelihood ratio. That sounds a lot more than one thirty two.

869
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:35.559
But they were boyfriend girlfriend, they've been doing it. My

870
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:39.440
next sentence, as her boyfriend, that wouldn't typically come as

871
00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:43.199
a surprise, though right that forensic evidence is certainly far

872
00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:48.480
more compelling and statistically significant. Here's the rub. He'd told

873
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:51.840
law enforcement he hadn't had sexual contact with Debbie in

874
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:55.880
the seventy two hours prior to her murder. It's important

875
00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:59.199
to note that this type of evidence is equally complex

876
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:03.760
to annaly and interpret accurately, just like I would argue

877
00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:07.079
any other type of forensic evidence, and I'm real sorry,

878
00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:09.280
is gun gel o graphic up in here for a second?

879
00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:12.239
Well, my thinking is pretty graphic right now, Like how

880
00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:13.440
long does it stay in there?

881
00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:16.960
Yep? And that's exactly where we're going. Okay, Yeah, we're

882
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:18.360
gonna get in atomical.

883
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:20.719
I mean I'm curious.

884
00:55:20.920 --> 00:55:26.039
Yeah I was too. According to peer reviewed forensic biology research,

885
00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:31.760
sperm DNA survival timelines differ significantly depending on where exactly

886
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:36.679
a sample is collected. In vaginal swabs, sperm DNA is

887
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:41.639
typically detectable for up to seventy two hours, okay. In

888
00:55:41.719 --> 00:55:47.280
cervical swabs, however, the picture is considerably different. Research has

889
00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:50.599
documented sperm persistence in the cervix for up to ten

890
00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:54.960
days after intercourse, in a notably better state of preservation

891
00:55:55.519 --> 00:55:57.280
than in vaginal samples.

892
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:00.440
They just get all up in there, don't they really do?

893
00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:06.000
A practitioner resource widely used in forensic sexual assault examination,

894
00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:11.840
published by end Violence Against Women International, WHO goes further

895
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.960
noting that the commonly applied seventy two hour rule may

896
00:56:16.039 --> 00:56:22.880
dramatically underestimate evidence persistence, and references cases involving homicide victims,

897
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:29.000
specifically where persistence timelines were significantly extended. But you have

898
00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:31.920
to admit, just on the surface, what most of us

899
00:56:32.119 --> 00:56:37.679
as laymen think or believe we understand about this type

900
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:41.599
of evidence doesn't look good. So as morbid as it

901
00:56:41.679 --> 00:56:44.679
is to ponder, and I don't raise this lightly, the

902
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:51.280
anatomical origin of that particular swab matters enormously a sentence.

903
00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:55.079
I never thought I'd say, a vaginal vault sample and

904
00:56:55.159 --> 00:56:59.599
a cervical sample tell very different stories about when that

905
00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:05.480
sexualual contact may have occurred. Oh, whether that distinction was

906
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:10.639
documented in nineteen eighty eight with the specificity modern forensic

907
00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:14.639
protocol would require is a question that I can't fully answer.

908
00:57:15.519 --> 00:57:21.800
So I wouldn't say that that DNA evidence necessarily establishes guilt,

909
00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:26.039
specifically for John Pearson. What I will say is that's

910
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:27.840
a much more compelling result.

911
00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:35.639
Yeah. Yeah, sextillion sextillion, interesting number, I know, ironically from

912
00:57:35.679 --> 00:57:37.840
the sexual contact Yeah huh.

913
00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:43.360
The trial of Robert Elmer A. Drops began on April first,

914
00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:46.880
April Fool's Day really, twenty twenty.

915
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:50.400
Five last year. Wait, yeah, last year.

916
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:54.559
In Hillsboro, Oregon, at the Washington County Courthouse. It was

917
00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:57.239
the first case to go before a jury since the

918
00:57:57.280 --> 00:58:00.960
county formed its cold case unit in twenty twenty. Two.

919
00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:05.079
Weeks of testimony followed, during which witnesses were asked to

920
00:58:05.119 --> 00:58:08.320
recall events from more than thirty years earlier.

921
00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:10.599
That's hard yep, that's a rough one.

922
00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:17.599
The prosecution, led by senior Deputy district Attorneys Alison Brown

923
00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:22.159
and Chris Luhman, built its case on four pillars. The

924
00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:29.599
DNA evidence from the coat attractive, the mud allegedly matching

925
00:58:29.679 --> 00:58:34.960
Bob Sherwood's property boo indistinguishable.

926
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:34.800
Not a match.

927
00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:41.119
The documented absence of phone records corroborating Bob's alibi honestly

928
00:58:41.119 --> 00:58:44.280
the best evidence probably that they have of him, and

929
00:58:44.360 --> 00:58:50.159
even that seems like there's some question about. And then

930
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:53.480
Debbie's own documented fear that Bob would harm her if

931
00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:58.719
he discovered her relationship with Pearson. Here's something that you

932
00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:02.320
don't see discover a lot. And I get it because

933
00:59:02.440 --> 00:59:06.719
in a way, it feels like sort of defaming the victim.

934
00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:10.440
A lot of people said that Debbie kind of told

935
00:59:10.679 --> 00:59:15.320
tall tales, a lot of really dramatic stories that they

936
00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:21.679
knew were not completely true. So people do that. I

937
00:59:21.719 --> 00:59:25.280
think we should believe victims, and we should believe women.

938
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:31.559
It does call some things about the alleged abuse into question.

939
00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:34.480
For me, okay, a little bit, a little bit, just

940
00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:39.880
saying I wasn't there. The defense, led by attorneys Stephanie Pollen,

941
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:45.719
April Yates, and Janie Piasol, challenged the DNA methodology as

942
00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:49.280
they should, the timeline of events, and the absence of

943
00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:53.599
any direct witness to the crime. They argued the DNA

944
00:59:53.719 --> 00:59:57.440
evidence was unreliable given the number of tests run before

945
00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:03.000
a positive result was obtained fair, and suggested that investigators

946
01:00:03.039 --> 01:00:05.960
had been so focused on Bob from the beginning that

947
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:11.199
they had failed to adequately consider alternative suspects. Seems like

948
01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:14.119
it might also be fair they didn't not look at

949
01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:17.719
anyone else. They just were like not really looking that

950
01:00:17.840 --> 01:00:20.239
hard at anyone else, and didn't do a very good

951
01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:23.239
job of some other stuff, which.

952
01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:25.119
Maybe explains why it went cold for so long.

953
01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:28.039
I mean, could be, could be. I mean, you know,

954
01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:31.760
limitations of like the technology is obviously like there's a

955
01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:35.119
you know, there's an allowance for that in some respect.

956
01:00:35.199 --> 01:00:37.960
But yeah, it's not great. It's not great. It's not great.

957
01:00:39.559 --> 01:00:44.079
There is one final dimension of Pearson's relation to the

958
01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:50.159
case that I haven't addressed yet and it's pretty shocking. Oh.

959
01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:52.440
No, okay.

960
01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:56.880
In August of twenty twenty four, the Washington County Prosecutor

961
01:00:57.039 --> 01:01:02.199
issued a subpoena to Pearson's home in Prineville, Oregon, indicating

962
01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:06.519
his testimony at Bob's trial was required. He did not

963
01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:09.320
respond to that or any of the other multiple attempts

964
01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:14.159
made to contact him. Hmmm. A week before the trial's

965
01:01:14.239 --> 01:01:18.119
original start date of October twenty second, twenty twenty four,

966
01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:23.960
law enforcement in Arizona attempted to serve Pearson with a

967
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:28.159
material witness warrant, which would have compelled him to appear,

968
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:36.599
and with cross jurisdictional cooperation, effectively extradited Pearson from Arizona

969
01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:41.800
to Oregon for the court proceedings. Okay, but John Pearson

970
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:46.280
never testified. Why. I'm so glad you asked? Was he

971
01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:50.280
abducted by aliens? I don't know, Arizona man. Yeah, I mean,

972
01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:54.280
it's listen, anything goes at this point. Clearly it is

973
01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:59.119
a kangaroo court. When the Majave County Sheriff's Office arrived

974
01:01:59.199 --> 01:02:03.159
at an Arizona RV park to attempt to serve him.

975
01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:09.320
Pearson reportedly peeked outside and told officers, I can see

976
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:14.400
you too, as officers announced themselves, what a creep Yes?

977
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:18.320
Is that not so creepy. He then pointed a gun

978
01:02:18.360 --> 01:02:23.599
to his head and fired a single shot. What wait what?

979
01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:29.039
His death delayed the trial by several months, and the

980
01:02:29.079 --> 01:02:33.880
defense's alternative suspect argument went to trial without its most

981
01:02:33.920 --> 01:02:35.159
significant witness.

982
01:02:36.239 --> 01:02:38.559
I mean that says a lot, though, should they did

983
01:02:38.599 --> 01:02:39.360
they present that?

984
01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:44.239
As defense attorney Janice Parisol stated in so many words,

985
01:02:44.920 --> 01:02:48.800
Pearson took his own life to avoid being taken into

986
01:02:48.840 --> 01:02:54.480
custody to testify. That's crazy, not even for him to

987
01:02:54.519 --> 01:02:57.679
be brought to trial, like to be tried just to

988
01:02:57.719 --> 01:03:03.199
testify that hit. That man's guilty definitely doesn't seem like

989
01:03:03.239 --> 01:03:08.480
the actions of someone who doesn't have anything suspect to share,

990
01:03:09.199 --> 01:03:13.000
who kills themselves if they're innocent instead of going to

991
01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:16.519
someone else's trial. Yeah, it's pretty wild stuff.

992
01:03:17.320 --> 01:03:20.480
I mean, maybe he had mental health issues. I don't know,

993
01:03:20.559 --> 01:03:22.760
but it seems wild.

994
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:26.719
That is a detail that only deepened the question surrounding him,

995
01:03:27.280 --> 01:03:32.000
though apparently not for everyone. The jury deliberated for less

996
01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:35.719
than a day in Bob's case, which is pretty quick.

997
01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:42.199
Oh No. On April seventeenth, twenty twenty five, Robert Elmer A.

998
01:03:42.280 --> 01:03:46.639
Trops was found guilty of second degree murder on what

999
01:03:48.360 --> 01:03:53.159
outside the courthouse, Defense attorney Stephanie Polland told OPB we

1000
01:03:53.239 --> 01:03:56.840
are disappointed by the verdict. Robert A. Trops is an

1001
01:03:56.840 --> 01:03:59.800
innocent man. We will be filing an appeal and we

1002
01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:03.199
will continue to fight until he's back home with his family.

1003
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:07.000
I feel like that evidence, the evidence is like.

1004
01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:11.119
It feels generous to call some of the evidence to

1005
01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:12.119
be honest.

1006
01:04:12.400 --> 01:04:16.800
Yeah. Wow. I feel like that's a trial where like.

1007
01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:22.320
They obviously there. You can't say they're guilty because there's

1008
01:04:22.400 --> 01:04:24.920
nothing actually there, but they can.

1009
01:04:25.960 --> 01:04:31.199
On July eighth, twenty twenty five, Robert Elmer Atrops, seventy

1010
01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:34.880
years old and visibly emotional in court, was sentenced to

1011
01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:39.679
life in prison, with the possibility of parole after twenty

1012
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:45.400
five years. Holy shit. Prosecutor Alison Brown addressed the court

1013
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:48.480
he was able to live his life to a degree

1014
01:04:48.840 --> 01:04:53.480
and experience many many things she never had the opportunity

1015
01:04:53.519 --> 01:04:57.000
to experience. Okay, which is true. He actually did it,

1016
01:04:57.079 --> 01:04:58.679
though I'm not I don't know.

1017
01:04:58.840 --> 01:05:02.960
Maybe he did, but like, yeah, there's evidence, Yeah, you

1018
01:05:03.159 --> 01:05:04.239
have to prove it.

1019
01:05:04.599 --> 01:05:07.199
Someone called Kim Kardashian get her on the case.

1020
01:05:07.280 --> 01:05:10.800
Oh god, please, honestly, like, I want that from him

1021
01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:14.079
because I know that's how shit gets done. Actually, right

1022
01:05:13.960 --> 01:05:18.320
he is. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's unfortunate. I

1023
01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:23.599
think it's important to note here that the Atrops's adopted daughter, Rihanna,

1024
01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:28.280
does not believe that Bob is guilty. Obviously, she was

1025
01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:32.320
a literal infant, you know, little more than a fetus,

1026
01:05:32.440 --> 01:05:35.239
one might say, when all of this happened. But she

1027
01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:39.159
grew up with him, she was raised by him. She

1028
01:05:39.320 --> 01:05:42.639
simply does not believe him capable of the heinous crime

1029
01:05:42.760 --> 01:05:46.480
for which he has now been convicted. I'm sure a

1030
01:05:46.519 --> 01:05:50.000
lot of daughters wouldn't want to believe something so awful

1031
01:05:50.119 --> 01:05:54.079
about the man that raised them. Some do, and yeah,

1032
01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:57.679
and there are many, you know, confirmed killers that their

1033
01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:01.760
families have grappled with that, and they say, you know, unfortunately,

1034
01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:06.199
he super duper did that. Equally confident in the opposite

1035
01:06:06.239 --> 01:06:10.360
direction are many people that loved Debbie and fully believe

1036
01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:14.840
justice was done with his conviction. Rihanna Stevens, who was

1037
01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:17.719
only eight months old when Debbie was murdered, and who

1038
01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:20.960
was raised by the man just convicted of that murder,

1039
01:06:21.639 --> 01:06:25.239
addressed the court directly. Her statement was one of the

1040
01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:29.000
most emotional moments in a case full of them. When

1041
01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:32.239
I was eight months old, someone robbed me of getting

1042
01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:34.719
to have a life with my mom there to support

1043
01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:41.239
my every milestone, my first birthday, kindergarten graduation, eighth grade promotion,

1044
01:06:41.800 --> 01:06:45.760
high school graduation, my wedding, the birth of my own children.

1045
01:06:46.639 --> 01:06:50.280
My mom wasn't there for any of that. Thirty six

1046
01:06:50.360 --> 01:06:53.400
years later, I'm being robbed of my father, the man

1047
01:06:53.480 --> 01:06:57.039
that was there for all of those milestones. Oh God.

1048
01:06:57.920 --> 01:07:00.599
She described Bob as the parent who had been present

1049
01:07:00.639 --> 01:07:03.199
for everything. He was the one in the crowd when

1050
01:07:03.239 --> 01:07:06.599
I looked up nervously from the volleyball court. He was

1051
01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:11.639
the one holding my hand when I felt lost. As

1052
01:07:11.719 --> 01:07:16.679
Rihanna spoke, Bob broke down in the courtroom. The defense

1053
01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:21.119
had sought a minimum of ten years before parole at eligibility,

1054
01:07:21.719 --> 01:07:24.960
but the judge imposed twenty five. Wow.

1055
01:07:26.119 --> 01:07:30.480
The judge who sees how much evidence come through his

1056
01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:32.880
courtroom constantly.

1057
01:07:34.159 --> 01:07:38.159
Wow. An appeal has been filed, and as of May

1058
01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:42.840
twenty twenty six remains in its early stages, with no

1059
01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:47.480
decision expected, possibly for at least another year under normal

1060
01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:52.239
Oregon appellate timelines. Damn, because this shit happens, roll slow,

1061
01:07:52.440 --> 01:07:56.960
so slow. I stumbled upon something on the Washington County

1062
01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:00.639
Sheriff's website that got me thinking, maybe I need a

1063
01:08:00.679 --> 01:08:04.559
tenfoil hat. But hear me out. On their Cold Case

1064
01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:10.239
Investigations tab of the website, case number eighty eight DASH

1065
01:08:10.639 --> 01:08:14.880
one three six three zero Deborah A. Trops is still

1066
01:08:14.920 --> 01:08:19.960
listed under again their Cold Case Investigations tap.

1067
01:08:20.319 --> 01:08:21.640
Now I don't disagree with that.

1068
01:08:22.720 --> 01:08:25.159
I mean, there are details in the description of the

1069
01:08:25.199 --> 01:08:27.720
case that appear to be inconsistent with the facts of

1070
01:08:27.760 --> 01:08:31.760
the case reported elsewhere. So we're talking about basic details

1071
01:08:31.800 --> 01:08:34.840
of the timeline. It's possible that the page hasn't been

1072
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:38.800
updated since the arrest or they're just summarizing, you know,

1073
01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:42.279
it was a cold case investigation. I don't know, maybe

1074
01:08:42.319 --> 01:08:45.840
they just haven't updated since the arrest or conviction. But

1075
01:08:46.399 --> 01:08:50.560
potential inaccuracies related to the case are a troubling possibility

1076
01:08:50.600 --> 01:08:53.920
in any scenario for there to be details that maybe

1077
01:08:53.960 --> 01:08:58.680
you are inconsistent or possibly inaccurate. That's upsetting that's official,

1078
01:08:58.840 --> 01:09:02.720
like government law enforce website. It's just weird. It's just

1079
01:09:02.800 --> 01:09:05.359
weird that there's not a lot of information beyond like

1080
01:09:05.399 --> 01:09:08.279
the early stages of the case too. I don't like that.

1081
01:09:08.560 --> 01:09:11.279
It just looks weird to me. Yeah, the agency that

1082
01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:15.159
investigated the case has not closed it out on their

1083
01:09:15.199 --> 01:09:19.279
own public facing website after a conviction, Like, yes, it

1084
01:09:19.399 --> 01:09:22.159
was a cold case investigation, but it just feels a

1085
01:09:22.199 --> 01:09:25.159
little bit out of place, like it's on the same

1086
01:09:25.239 --> 01:09:32.560
page as lonnie Kai's case. Lonnie Kai's case is definitely unsolved. Meanwhile,

1087
01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:37.960
there's an active pending appeal. As opp's forensic reporter covering

1088
01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:41.840
the case suggested in print, the county may find itself

1089
01:09:42.159 --> 01:09:45.840
litigating again. Maybe they only want to update the website once.

1090
01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:50.399
I don't disagree with that. I don't know. I'm just

1091
01:09:50.439 --> 01:09:55.159
saying it's weird. It doesn't imply necessarily that there. It

1092
01:09:55.319 --> 01:09:58.720
just it feels a little it's odd. It's like they

1093
01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:01.359
even think, like you, that they would take the chance

1094
01:10:01.439 --> 01:10:03.960
to be like we solved this one, right, but they

1095
01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:05.199
don't even think that they have.

1096
01:10:05.800 --> 01:10:07.600
That's what it That's how it feels.

1097
01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:11.000
I get that, like maybe that's a little extreme of

1098
01:10:11.039 --> 01:10:15.760
a viewpoint to take. Before we move on to our

1099
01:10:15.840 --> 01:10:17.880
terror reading, I want to share something else and it

1100
01:10:17.960 --> 01:10:21.159
comes directly from OPB's coverage, So I'm going to read

1101
01:10:21.199 --> 01:10:25.640
this basically verbatim. In the final argument jurors heard during

1102
01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:29.239
the trial's closed in April, prosecutors laid out their theory

1103
01:10:29.359 --> 01:10:33.359
about what that forensic evidence meant. We knew that this

1104
01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:36.439
DNA was found on her neck, on her collar, and

1105
01:10:36.880 --> 01:10:40.600
other area of her coat. No one else's was right,

1106
01:10:41.399 --> 01:10:46.560
Senior Deputy District Attorney Alison Brown told jurors they didn't

1107
01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:49.199
actually swab that jacket until a couple of years ago,

1108
01:10:49.439 --> 01:10:52.720
So after thirty five years, there's still the defendant's DNA

1109
01:10:52.800 --> 01:10:56.479
on her jacket. Brown goes on to state, we've got

1110
01:10:56.479 --> 01:10:59.920
evidence of actually having that physical contact with her that's

1111
01:11:00.079 --> 01:11:05.119
directly connected to her murder. How can you say that

1112
01:11:05.119 --> 01:11:09.319
that's a really good point. You have evidence that he

1113
01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:13.000
actually physically contacted the clothing that she was wearing at

1114
01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:15.840
the time that she was murdered. But it's an outer coat,

1115
01:11:15.880 --> 01:11:18.640
it's like a winter coat. Yeah, this is someone that

1116
01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:22.039
she was married to, and if you believe the defense

1117
01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:27.600
or like the DNA experts interpretation of this. It's super inconclusive.

1118
01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:33.239
It's a trace amount of DNA that contradicts what DNA

1119
01:11:33.439 --> 01:11:37.239
analysts from the Oregon State Police Crime Lab who worked

1120
01:11:37.239 --> 01:11:40.840
on the case with Brown testified to just days earlier,

1121
01:11:41.239 --> 01:11:43.960
they told yours there's no way to know when the

1122
01:11:44.079 --> 01:11:46.840
DNA got on the coat, and they said they couldn't

1123
01:11:46.880 --> 01:11:50.920
tell how it got there. Before Brown's closing, no one

1124
01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:53.960
from the lab said they tested Deborah's neck for DNA.

1125
01:11:54.760 --> 01:11:58.840
Seems kind of significant in a manual strangulation case. Yes.

1126
01:12:00.039 --> 01:12:02.960
When opp asked Brown if she was concerned about her

1127
01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:06.800
statements being inconsistent with what analysts from the Oregon Crime

1128
01:12:06.880 --> 01:12:11.920
Lab testified, Brown demurred. The lab's job isn't to advocate

1129
01:12:12.039 --> 01:12:14.960
or to make any conclusion. She said, that's our job

1130
01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:17.159
to do our best to piece it together for the

1131
01:12:17.239 --> 01:12:21.199
jury and make our arguments. One of a Trop's attorneys,

1132
01:12:21.319 --> 01:12:25.359
Jenis Pirosol, said in a statement that DNA being misinterpreted

1133
01:12:25.439 --> 01:12:28.720
in court was what they were worried about all along.

1134
01:12:29.520 --> 01:12:33.479
The state used unreliable DNA evidence. This isn't the DNA

1135
01:12:33.600 --> 01:12:37.159
you see on television. She said. The state just convicted

1136
01:12:37.199 --> 01:12:40.479
an innocent man. It is hard because like it's what

1137
01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:43.560
you see. DNA is like a finger like that.

1138
01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:46.880
Yeah, it's you, and it can't be anybody else because

1139
01:12:46.920 --> 01:12:48.800
it's your specific, unique DNA.

1140
01:12:49.279 --> 01:12:52.439
Yep. Since the start, the DNA evidence and the A

1141
01:12:52.520 --> 01:12:56.560
trops case posed a challenge for both sides. According to

1142
01:12:56.640 --> 01:13:03.079
the Oregon Lab's own internal chart their own standards, the

1143
01:13:03.199 --> 01:13:06.920
DNA results were relatively weak and the finding is based

1144
01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:11.079
on complex statistics, far from how DNA is depicted in

1145
01:13:11.159 --> 01:13:15.520
popular culture. It's the task of both prosecution and defense

1146
01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:19.399
to present a compelling story to the jury, a narrative

1147
01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:22.760
of events that draws on what was presented during the trial.

1148
01:13:23.079 --> 01:13:30.159
Not lies, though bars. What Brown's closing remarks demonstrate is

1149
01:13:30.199 --> 01:13:34.159
that the final words jurors here can stretch the bounds

1150
01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:37.720
of what the evidence shows. And that's totally legal. By

1151
01:13:37.760 --> 01:13:42.359
the way. I hate that that, Uh, there's a different

1152
01:13:42.479 --> 01:13:49.239
threshold for accuracy because those statements aren't evidence, they're an argument.

1153
01:13:50.239 --> 01:13:52.640
I don't like.

1154
01:13:52.680 --> 01:13:57.800
That because they're these people are not experts. They're looking

1155
01:13:57.880 --> 01:14:01.279
to an expert to tell them what is going on,

1156
01:14:02.399 --> 01:14:04.760
not to like make up stories.

1157
01:14:04.560 --> 01:14:10.960
Right, But their closing arguments can essentially make assertions that

1158
01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:14.479
aren't really backed up, and that's totally kosher. I never

1159
01:14:14.520 --> 01:14:15.560
really thought about that.

1160
01:14:16.079 --> 01:14:20.279
Yeah, I think that everyone who is a juror needs

1161
01:14:20.319 --> 01:14:23.239
to take a class unlike what this shit actually means

1162
01:14:23.239 --> 01:14:24.039
and how much it.

1163
01:14:24.319 --> 01:14:28.920
And even if you do, there's a lot that goes

1164
01:14:28.960 --> 01:14:32.439
into a jury trial. And I think, you know, I

1165
01:14:32.600 --> 01:14:38.840
understand why sometimes people elect for a bench trial. Makes sense.

1166
01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:42.319
Do you trust twelve dummies that live in the same

1167
01:14:42.359 --> 01:14:46.760
county as you, No, or a neighboring county, not at all.

1168
01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:50.920
We grew up in Washington County. I have never been

1169
01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:54.840
more ashamed to say that that is crazy. Listen, I

1170
01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:57.439
wasn't there for the whole trial. I haven't seen every

1171
01:14:57.479 --> 01:14:59.800
piece of evidence that was laid out. I haven't heard

1172
01:15:00.039 --> 01:15:03.760
all of the testimony because I physically wasn't there for

1173
01:15:03.800 --> 01:15:06.800
the trial. But I will say, based on all of

1174
01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:09.920
the research that I've done and everything that I've read

1175
01:15:10.119 --> 01:15:15.399
and you know, pieced together, I don't think they proved anything.

1176
01:15:16.199 --> 01:15:20.159
I think the most compelling person in this case is

1177
01:15:20.239 --> 01:15:23.359
John Pearson. I don't think he really.

1178
01:15:23.239 --> 01:15:25.680
Killed himself so he wouldn't have to go to the trial.

1179
01:15:26.720 --> 01:15:30.800
Not his own trial again, not his own trial. Wanted

1180
01:15:30.920 --> 01:15:35.520
so badly not to be extradited to Oregon for somebody

1181
01:15:35.560 --> 01:15:39.039
else's trial. So that's a thing that happened in case,

1182
01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:42.199
you know, everything else that's happening on the world stage

1183
01:15:42.239 --> 01:15:44.119
wasn't already upsetting enough.

1184
01:15:44.479 --> 01:15:47.199
Right, You really got me though in the beginning with

1185
01:15:47.239 --> 01:15:51.239
the whole I know he choked her thing, and he

1186
01:15:51.279 --> 01:15:53.600
may have. Yeah, we don't know. It's a legend.

1187
01:15:53.840 --> 01:15:57.520
Yeah, I mean, it's very possible that it's possible he

1188
01:15:57.640 --> 01:16:01.199
killed her, but like, you have to prove it. You

1189
01:16:01.439 --> 01:16:05.359
have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And we're

1190
01:16:05.399 --> 01:16:09.039
saying a reasonable doubt. We're not saying like you have

1191
01:16:09.119 --> 01:16:13.199
to be able to produce a photo of him killing her,

1192
01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:16.600
Like this is not reasonable to me at all. Doesn't

1193
01:16:16.600 --> 01:16:17.399
seem reasonable.

1194
01:16:18.119 --> 01:16:20.880
Edge hole, and I took friends of five.

1195
01:16:23.960 --> 01:16:28.920
Oh dude, JR. I'm like, listen, it's entirely possible that

1196
01:16:29.119 --> 01:16:32.680
maybe I'm way off base here, but a lot of

1197
01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:37.880
the coverage there's a reason that they give Rihanna such

1198
01:16:37.880 --> 01:16:42.319
a platform. Yeah, I feel so bad. When they first

1199
01:16:42.359 --> 01:16:48.119
introduced her in the piece that I watched, I was like, girl,

1200
01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:51.039
of course you don't want to think your dad did it,

1201
01:16:51.119 --> 01:16:53.319
and you didn't even really like know your mom, you

1202
01:16:53.399 --> 01:16:56.479
know of her, but like, and then the further we

1203
01:16:56.560 --> 01:16:59.039
got in, I was like, listen, girl, I'm sorry about

1204
01:16:59.039 --> 01:17:03.479
those things I said. You might have been right. Oh no.

1205
01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:07.359
I think that's the problem is that it feels like

1206
01:17:07.680 --> 01:17:10.439
I don't know, you don't know, they don't know, and

1207
01:17:10.479 --> 01:17:13.279
now it's pretty far down the line and pretty far

1208
01:17:13.439 --> 01:17:16.560
fucked up for anybody to really be able to know.

1209
01:17:17.199 --> 01:17:20.359
I think sometimes sometimes the case just gets too far

1210
01:17:20.439 --> 01:17:24.520
gone and then it's like, oh great, another great mystery

1211
01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:29.159
of our modern era. Oh boy, just something to think

1212
01:17:29.199 --> 01:17:31.039
about in case you were having a good day.

1213
01:17:32.199 --> 01:17:36.159
I mean I kind of was, yeah.

1214
01:17:35.000 --> 01:17:37.840
Well, I I you know, after this, we'll we'll go

1215
01:17:37.960 --> 01:17:43.159
get some strawberry muffins. Should we do some Terrastsyeah, let's

1216
01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:48.880
do some terror. Wow, I get a shuffle them. I

1217
01:17:48.920 --> 01:17:51.840
haven't been here to shove, I know. I was excited.

1218
01:17:51.920 --> 01:17:57.560
I was like, oh damn, that'd be Rihanna, Bob. If

1219
01:17:57.600 --> 01:18:04.920
you're innocent, Okay, where do we feel Maybe just like

1220
01:18:05.039 --> 01:18:09.119
run your hands and see if anything like I feel

1221
01:18:09.159 --> 01:18:15.800
like hot? Yeah. This one was just really upsetting because

1222
01:18:16.720 --> 01:18:18.880
it's like we know that there are so many cases

1223
01:18:18.920 --> 01:18:21.239
where it's like, wow, that was really bullshit. But this

1224
01:18:21.359 --> 01:18:24.640
is just like such a recent example and it feels

1225
01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:29.640
personal because of you know, proximity and like that's where

1226
01:18:29.680 --> 01:18:32.159
we grew up. And then the fact that it's like, oh,

1227
01:18:32.239 --> 01:18:35.800
this is the first so they start the cold case

1228
01:18:36.239 --> 01:18:40.439
unit in Washington County and then this is the first one.

1229
01:18:41.239 --> 01:18:43.680
This is the first one that goes to trial. Not

1230
01:18:43.720 --> 01:18:48.880
a great start, Like we want them solved, not solve

1231
01:18:49.000 --> 01:18:53.000
them though, And if you can't, then you can't. Then

1232
01:18:53.039 --> 01:18:56.039
they're where they started. Yeah, some cases they're they're not

1233
01:18:56.159 --> 01:18:58.920
there yet. Maybe I don't know, just that dead end.

1234
01:19:01.159 --> 01:19:04.920
I feel like my eyes keep going back to like here, Oh.

1235
01:19:04.720 --> 01:19:06.600
That's interesting because that's where I was looking when your

1236
01:19:06.600 --> 01:19:12.039
hands were up and I was like middle finger, left hand, interesting, okay, oh,

1237
01:19:12.199 --> 01:19:14.479
right hand, wow, hand it is for you right hand?

1238
01:19:14.640 --> 01:19:18.000
Ooh okay, oh it's a tower. I mean that's accurate.

1239
01:19:18.479 --> 01:19:22.039
My face. I'm going to give you the little book Chaos,

1240
01:19:22.079 --> 01:19:23.239
everything falling apart.

1241
01:19:24.600 --> 01:19:25.720
I'm gonna put you down, baby.

1242
01:19:25.920 --> 01:19:30.079
Throw that on the floor. Throw on the ground, on

1243
01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:30.640
the ground.

1244
01:19:31.520 --> 01:19:33.359
It didn't throw the dog on the ground. Don't you

1245
01:19:33.359 --> 01:19:34.640
guys worry.

1246
01:19:34.840 --> 01:19:42.720
It's a Douglas fur oh crisis, destruction, ruined, chaos, collapse, trauma, devastation,

1247
01:19:43.319 --> 01:19:45.159
sudden change.

1248
01:19:45.479 --> 01:19:47.560
Well accurate.

1249
01:19:48.880 --> 01:19:52.680
I mean sometimes it's the accuracy that gets me. Yeah.

1250
01:19:52.800 --> 01:19:53.520
Do you want to read this?

1251
01:19:53.560 --> 01:19:57.800
It's pretty short, sure, okay? From our little interpretation book

1252
01:19:57.800 --> 01:20:01.520
for the PNW deck. Well, it's the Civic Northwest Herrot

1253
01:20:02.319 --> 01:20:07.279
the PNW. If you nask, a spark catches and the

1254
01:20:07.359 --> 01:20:10.840
tender dry forest flares up like a matchhead. A wave

1255
01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:15.640
of heat and fleeing wildlife precedes the spread. Nests, dens

1256
01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:20.239
and russ burn. Millions of homes are engulfed, Millions of lives,

1257
01:20:20.479 --> 01:20:24.119
plant and animal are sacrificed in fire. Nothing will be

1258
01:20:24.119 --> 01:20:28.479
the same after the cataclysm, but destruction doesn't mean conclusion.

1259
01:20:30.760 --> 01:20:34.560
I really like that because it gives me hope for Bob.

1260
01:20:34.640 --> 01:20:40.960
And life returns after a fire in time and maybe

1261
01:20:40.960 --> 01:20:44.920
a lot of time. Yeah, And sometimes a towering giant

1262
01:20:45.039 --> 01:20:49.000
even survives the burn. They carry the scars and twist

1263
01:20:49.039 --> 01:20:53.119
around the damage, but they keep growing. I think this

1264
01:20:53.199 --> 01:20:56.720
is so accurate for like what's happening with I mean,

1265
01:20:56.760 --> 01:20:59.359
he could hopefully he gets out.

1266
01:21:00.479 --> 01:21:02.079
I mean, I don't know.

1267
01:21:02.319 --> 01:21:05.239
There were always these scars from this and burns and

1268
01:21:06.239 --> 01:21:10.359
nothing's going to change the trauma that has happened from

1269
01:21:10.399 --> 01:21:12.279
the murder and the conviction.

1270
01:21:12.479 --> 01:21:17.159
Conviction, Okay. When this card appears, it usually means you've

1271
01:21:17.199 --> 01:21:20.640
ignored or denied something that's rotten and needs to be

1272
01:21:20.720 --> 01:21:21.359
blown apart.

1273
01:21:21.920 --> 01:21:25.159
Oohoo, someone blew apart is rotten head, That's all I'm

1274
01:21:25.199 --> 01:21:25.640
gonna say.

1275
01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:29.600
I mean. Or it could literally be talking about the

1276
01:21:29.800 --> 01:21:32.399
entirety of the justice. Yes, no, I agree with that,

1277
01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:33.640
That's all I'm gonna say.

1278
01:21:33.640 --> 01:21:34.479
So one more literal.

1279
01:21:35.159 --> 01:21:39.560
Yeah, you're probably surprised, but you shouldn't be. You knew

1280
01:21:39.680 --> 01:21:43.520
changes were necessary, but you refuse to take action. Then

1281
01:21:43.600 --> 01:21:47.439
something happens losing a job, the end of a relationship,

1282
01:21:47.600 --> 01:21:51.439
an accident, a financial setback that forces you to face

1283
01:21:51.520 --> 01:21:57.199
a reality big time wrongful conviction. Your life is collapsing

1284
01:21:57.239 --> 01:22:00.640
around you, but that old, worn out structure had to go.

1285
01:22:01.319 --> 01:22:05.279
The tower demands you free yourself from the self created fortress,

1286
01:22:05.319 --> 01:22:08.760
which is really ironic for someone who is just convicted

1287
01:22:09.800 --> 01:22:14.119
in which you've imprisoned yourself. Oh shit. In the wake

1288
01:22:14.199 --> 01:22:17.119
of the chaos, a new order can grow. In a

1289
01:22:17.159 --> 01:22:20.319
reading about money, this card heralds a major change in

1290
01:22:20.359 --> 01:22:24.600
your finances. An unexpected loss or stepback may cause you

1291
01:22:24.680 --> 01:22:27.720
to reassess your attitudes about money when you have to

1292
01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:32.159
write a huge check for your three person defense team,

1293
01:22:32.439 --> 01:22:38.600
oh shit, and perhaps free you from your attachment to wealth, status, possessions,

1294
01:22:38.640 --> 01:22:42.760
and the related responsibilities. If the reading is about your work,

1295
01:22:42.960 --> 01:22:45.880
the tower may represent a sudden job loss or change

1296
01:22:45.880 --> 01:22:49.319
in your workplace. Yes, you're shocked and field of rug's

1297
01:22:49.359 --> 01:22:51.720
been pulled out from under you, But this may be

1298
01:22:51.880 --> 01:22:54.760
exactly what you need to escape the walls that trapped you.

1299
01:22:55.720 --> 01:22:58.640
In a reading about love, this card suggests you need

1300
01:22:58.680 --> 01:23:02.840
to overthrow false site ideas, old habit patterns, and outdated

1301
01:23:02.880 --> 01:23:06.760
ways of relating to a partner. A breakup or major

1302
01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:10.920
change in a relationship is necessary and eminent. With it

1303
01:23:10.960 --> 01:23:13.520
will come more freedom.

1304
01:23:12.880 --> 01:23:16.199
Or like you know, the relationship between like a jury

1305
01:23:16.239 --> 01:23:20.319
and the person giving their clothes the closing statements.

1306
01:23:20.520 --> 01:23:23.359
What are they just lawyers? I don't, Yeah, I mean

1307
01:23:23.479 --> 01:23:26.119
prosecutor prosecutor that's what I was thinking, Which I mean

1308
01:23:26.119 --> 01:23:29.720
they are lawyers. Yeah, that's like the more more specific, yes,

1309
01:23:29.840 --> 01:23:33.800
exactly specific, like giving a specificity of the specification.

1310
01:23:34.279 --> 01:23:36.800
It's like they're putting on a show, like it's just

1311
01:23:36.840 --> 01:23:37.520
like an act.

1312
01:23:37.800 --> 01:23:41.439
There's a lot of showmanship involved in like presenting a

1313
01:23:41.520 --> 01:23:45.680
good legal argument, and I don't like that.

1314
01:23:46.720 --> 01:23:49.039
I don't like that because I mean, the other person

1315
01:23:49.159 --> 01:23:51.760
is isn't it as good of an actor as you are, Like,

1316
01:23:51.920 --> 01:23:53.520
it doesn't matter what the evidence is.

1317
01:23:53.840 --> 01:23:58.399
I mean, I think that that is certainly a career

1318
01:23:58.560 --> 01:24:02.159
where you need to be a good public speaker, a

1319
01:24:02.159 --> 01:24:07.760
good orator, but performer that specific word that you used

1320
01:24:07.920 --> 01:24:12.279
or actor, that is where it turns in the wrong

1321
01:24:12.359 --> 01:24:13.520
direction for me, Like.

1322
01:24:13.600 --> 01:24:18.159
It has nothing to do with the actual thing that's happening. Yeah,

1323
01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:20.079
you're just good at talking out of your ass.

1324
01:24:20.399 --> 01:24:25.520
And I think it's really important that the OPB reporter

1325
01:24:26.399 --> 01:24:30.159
who's followed the case, they ask some very good and

1326
01:24:30.239 --> 01:24:35.199
pointed questions. I will say, fucking shame on the rest

1327
01:24:35.359 --> 01:24:39.319
of the news organizations that like haven't really pointed out

1328
01:24:39.319 --> 01:24:42.920
how problematic this is in the same way. Oh wow,

1329
01:24:43.680 --> 01:24:47.399
they haven't gone in depth. And you know, not all

1330
01:24:47.520 --> 01:24:51.199
stories are covered the same in all outlets. But it's

1331
01:24:51.279 --> 01:24:54.199
troubling to me that if you see coverage of this

1332
01:24:54.840 --> 01:24:59.840
in certain certain other media outlets, your interpretation of it

1333
01:25:00.039 --> 01:25:01.039
may be very different.

1334
01:25:01.640 --> 01:25:05.399
Yeah, like and his DNA was found, he was feeling guilty.

1335
01:25:05.479 --> 01:25:08.640
There you go, case's closed. Boomboo, exactly exactly.

1336
01:25:09.159 --> 01:25:14.239
And it's not because obviously it's not because of just

1337
01:25:14.279 --> 01:25:18.199
the simple fact of a differing viewpoint. It's because there's

1338
01:25:18.279 --> 01:25:20.640
just a lot that's missing if you don't have all

1339
01:25:20.720 --> 01:25:22.800
of the facts, and you don't have some of these

1340
01:25:22.880 --> 01:25:27.880
really important details about how evidence was processed, how it

1341
01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:32.039
was then subsequently presented to a jury. I mean, to me,

1342
01:25:32.159 --> 01:25:34.079
this is just it's dicky, it's upsetting.

1343
01:25:34.199 --> 01:25:39.159
They had to change the analysis parameters for them to

1344
01:25:39.239 --> 01:25:42.439
get anything like yes, that is insane to me.

1345
01:25:43.039 --> 01:25:46.800
Third times, the charms I said, parameters are parameters are parameters?

1346
01:25:46.840 --> 01:25:48.239
Like what the fuck are you changing?

1347
01:25:48.600 --> 01:25:54.199
Yeah, and even adjusting the parameters that is such a

1348
01:25:54.239 --> 01:26:00.560
weak ass result. Yeah, one two. It's not good. It's

1349
01:26:00.560 --> 01:26:04.520
not getting one thirty two on a test No. One

1350
01:26:05.039 --> 01:26:09.560
two compared to And again this is not this doesn't

1351
01:26:09.640 --> 01:26:13.319
prove guilt of the other party, John Pearson. But one

1352
01:26:13.439 --> 01:26:19.520
thirty two versus ninety four point six sextillion, that's nuts.

1353
01:26:19.840 --> 01:26:25.520
So anyways, in conclusion, I hate everything, and see you

1354
01:26:25.560 --> 01:26:26.319
guys next week.

1355
01:26:26.399 --> 01:26:30.039
I guess well, we can actually say our outro together.

1356
01:26:30.319 --> 01:26:33.479
Since we're together, we don't we don't cancel each other's

1357
01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:35.319
audio out over riverside.

1358
01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:41.239
Oh my Gord, have a creepy ass day. We'll see

1359
01:26:41.319 --> 01:26:45.439
you next Thursday. I almost said Tuesday. Well you didn't

1360
01:26:45.680 --> 01:26:50.279
gets me or almost gets me? Every dame sixty percent

1361
01:26:50.279 --> 01:26:54.239
of the time, it worked every day.

1362
01:26:56.199 --> 01:26:59.079
Well, I hope this is we get some good news

1363
01:26:59.119 --> 01:27:04.760
on this someday for Bob and Rihanna and Debbie. She

1364
01:27:04.920 --> 01:27:09.039
deserves to have it solved for real real. Yeah, that's

1365
01:27:09.680 --> 01:27:10.560
oh my god.

1366
01:27:10.960 --> 01:27:13.119
There's so much to this that's like a part that

1367
01:27:13.159 --> 01:27:15.600
I like, hardly even touched on, is that it just

1368
01:27:15.640 --> 01:27:18.600
feels like some people are satisfied with it, but does

1369
01:27:18.600 --> 01:27:22.000
that It just doesn't feel like justice if you don't

1370
01:27:22.079 --> 01:27:25.039
feel like they got the guy and they got him

1371
01:27:25.479 --> 01:27:28.840
the right way, right and maybe he did it. I

1372
01:27:28.880 --> 01:27:33.000
don't know. I don't know. Bob his daughter does. Yeah,

1373
01:27:33.439 --> 01:27:36.800
I don't know, man, I don't like it. Let's just

1374
01:27:36.960 --> 01:27:44.199
like not not subtle for this type of yes, trial conviction.

1375
01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:49.600
It's not good enough. There's unreasonable doubt for reason right right.

1376
01:27:50.079 --> 01:27:52.760
No, Settling is something that you do after you've tried

1377
01:27:52.800 --> 01:27:55.560
on too many pairs. Of g ES. I also said

1378
01:27:55.680 --> 01:27:59.039
unreasonable doubt. And I'm a reasonable, but it was unreasonable

1379
01:27:59.079 --> 01:28:04.239
in this case reasonable And on that note, the puppy's

1380
01:28:04.279 --> 01:28:08.159
bedding my feet, so that's a maybe, that's a wreck.

1381
01:28:08.720 --> 01:28:11.079
Bye bye okay,