Deborah "Debe" Atrops: If Anything Happens to Me | Beaverton, Oregon

0:00 On December first, nineteen eighty eight, at approximately nine am, a city public works employee called Beaverton Police to report a suspicious abandoned vehicle at the dead end of Southwest Murray Road near Cholsbury Road. It's spooky to think of like a missings person car being found on a dead end. It's just like it. Don't like that vibe. I don't like it either. It's not giving good anything vibes. Oh, it's giving very dead end vie. Very dead yeah, very that. Yeah, I'll like it. A little on the nose, you might say, Hi, Cassie, Hi Caitlin, Hi creepy people. Oh hellou we. I was like, I'm actively forcing my hand down to the table. I'm not waving.

0:50 I'm waving. I am still looking at the camera. The non existent we'll get back to it. If you guys have been missing the videos, it's Cassie's fault and we will get back to it. We're getting there. We're getting there, Okay. This is PNW Hans and Homicides where we chat about true crime, the para normal and usually a little bit about my dogs. I don't know, whatever's on our mind. Anything and everything. We feel like talking about. But usually we do have a subject that yeah, truecriber, spooky, it's not totally free form. Just to be fair, we do a little tarro reading at the end of every episode as well for deeper insight into our topic. Inside do we get Indeed, this is a really long one, so I think I'm gonna just jump into it. This is like the longest set of notes that I've had in a while, and I feel like there are a lot of spots where there's I feel a discussion coming on. Okay, I should say, okay, yeah, what if I just have nothing to say, I'm just blankly staring at you the entire time. Honestly, I would be blown away, and that's truly wild behavior. Okay, but okay, also sorry, if you guys hear my headphones, I'm creaking.

2:14 Yeah, they're very Uh we're talking about getting new ones. Yeah, so join the Patreon, right so we can get non creaky headphones. I know, I feel like we really liked these at a certain point, but. Yeah, we mean they're better. I think there do we used to have another set? Right? I think we did? Yeah, and they were just really hot. Was I feel like my biggest complaint they're better than the ones. You know, upgrades need to happen. It's been a while since we've done anything now, I think because once we got these mike arms for the desks and then we got the road caster, I feel like we were kind of like, we don't really know anything.

2:57 It's stup a whole studio, man's and everything. We did a lot of upgrades, but it's been a minute. It's been a minute. And I think headphones on the scale of like new computer or roadcast or whatever, to like something super small, like a wireless mouse or whatever. It's kind of in the middle. It's not like I don't think we'll probably spend one thousand dollars on headphones, but I hope not. Yeah, I know we easily could. I have looked at headphones in recent memory, and definitely there are people using headphones that are quite expensive. So two thousand of you join our Patreon at a dollar tier because we have a dollar tier. There you go, you get ad free episode, to get a welcome card with a little mini terror reading in it.

3:45 And we can afford one thousand dollars headphones each. I mean, that's perfect. That's a it's a worthy goal. Yeah, I was going to say, that's a it's a like logical purchase, right, absolutely. I love that for us and for all of you. Okay, remember when I said we were starting just gonna jump right into it, and then something happened. It was me again, It's my fault, all right. Deborah Lee A. Trops was born in June of nineteen fifty eight in Florence, Oregon. She went by Debbie according to those closest to her. I feel like everybody named Deborah goes by Debbie or deb Yeah. Yeah, is your name Deborah? Do you go by Debbie? Let us know?

4:35 And most importantly, if you do go by Debbie, how do you spell it? Because all of my source material shows that, like her nickname, Debbie was spelled d e b e. Oh. That's cute. Yeah, I like that. That's different. I would just assume the normal D e bb y yeah or I E yeah. I've seen it spelled I guess more ways than I remembered. Well, that's cute. I like that. I kind of want it to be like the accent e, so it's like debbe like babe babe. Yeah. She was described by her stepfather Ed Holland and her close friend Darlene Lufkin as warm, ambitious, and full of desire for a better life. She was the kind of person who made people feel seen, and that was something that I felt like was really touching about interviews that I saw with her friend Darlene, because she was a fairly young single mother in the eighties, and you know, she described feeling like it was hard for me to maintain like adult friendships because not a lot of people want to come and hang out with you and your kids. Yeah, and Debbie just you know, loved my kids, loved spending time together, and that was like, she reminds me of me. Yeah, right, you come and hang out with me and my kids all the time. True,

6:06 I do. I hang out with everyone's kids kidless. But you know, I'm a nanny too, so obviously. I have to have love for children. Yeah. I think sometimes too, when you don't have your own kids, you have maybe some bandwidth that like if I were a parent and had my own kids, I don't know that I would want to go over to somebody else's house and hang out with her, right, I don't know. Debbie had married Robert Bob Atrops on June sixth, of nineteen eighty seven. Just days after her twenty ninth birthday. In March of nineteen eighty eight, the couple had adopted a beautiful baby girl named Rihanna. Oh, I know, and we're living in Sherwood, Oregon.

6:52 I know where that is where. I know everything that I was reading and I watched a couple of different I think forty eight Hours or and or Dateline. There's like an episode that they talk about the case and I kept being like, oh, I know where that is. Or I'm like, yeah, no shit, your lack you picked the case in the PNW in the state living weird. Yeah, I know, never been more nerd coded than. I wasn't sure if I knew where Florence was, but I've heard of it. Okay, So Florence is located on the central Oregon coast, and I think of the coast, even though like my memories of driving through or spending time in Florence aren't actually really like of the coast itself. It's more like sand dunes, like a lot of people take like ATVs and like dirt bikes and stuff like that. Yeah, okay, it's between Newport and Cuse Bay.

7:52 That makes sense. Why, I've yeah, definitely heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. In late spring of nineteen eighty, Debbie came to work crying. She told a coworker that Bob had been physically violent toward her. She just rough timing Bobby, Bobby. By the time Rihanna was three months old, the marriage was falling apart, the couple separating in June of nineteen eighty eight. If you're keeping track, they got married in June of nineteen eighty seven. Okay, So I was trying to think back. I was like, what date did she say? Yeah, that's sad, that's. A very short marriage.

8:33 And then you just have like a few months old baby. They literally just adopted a child. Oh good, Bobby, come on, man, it's not great timing, I'm gonna say. Debbie and Rihanna moved into an apartment in Salem, while Bob stayed in the couple's home on Southwest Consulman Road in Sherwood. Oh. Sure, make the mom and baby go to an apartment, right. I think some of her family kind of lived down south in like the Salem area. That's good. Yeah, she had she seemed to have like more ties to further south in Oregon. Okay, so it seemed like that made sense. But yeah, it's like, oh, okay, so you just hang out in the house and they'll just move in. Yeah it boom, I mean boo for so many reasons. Boo bob boo, boo bob boo. Debbie confided in at least one friend that shortly before she moved out, Bob had choked her. The two were preparing for divorce. After the separation was official, Debbie began a romantic relationship with a co worker named John Pearson, whom she had met at a company picnic in August of nineteen eighty eight. Pearson was also separated from his wife. Debbie told friends she was worried. She feared Bob had found out about Pearson, and that if he had, he might harm her.

9:59 That's so it's fucking scary, Like you can't even just live your life. You're not together anymore. Yeah, I mean they did have a child together. Yeah, so that's kind of a complicating factor. On the evening of November twenty ninth, nineteen eighty eight, Debbie A. Drops had two things on her schedule. First, a hair appointment at a salon called res much else Ooo In Tiger to Oregon, second a stop at Bob's home in Sherwood to pick up baby Rihanna, who had previously been picked up from a babysitter in Newburgh by Bob while Debbie was at her appointment. Debbie was expected to arrive at Bob's house between seven point thirty and eight pm, but Debbie never arrived at Bob's house. No. At nine forty pm, Bob called the Tiger Police Department. His words recorded by the call with the dispatcher, my wife is running about three hours overdue from a hair appointment. I was getting a little concerned. He gave Debbie's name, told the dispatcher she had been driving a black Honda Accord, and said he was calling from Sherwood. This was the first of four phone calls that Bob plays the law enforcement regarding Debbie that evening. Oh wow, that's a lot of it's a lot of calls. Yeah, yeah, and pretty quick too.

11:30 I would say that was something that really drew a lot of interest how quickly he got in touch with law enforcement. I feel like he'd been worried she might have been in a car accident or something like that. I would probably be worried about I kind of have been like three hours, right. And obviously this is well before it was commonplace for anybody to have his cell phone, right. Yeah. So in the next call, at ten twenty five pm, he told the dispatcher that he had driven the route Debbie would have taken and did not locate her vehicle. Wow, what searching? The dispatcher tells him, why don't we give it another hour and if you haven't heard anything, give me a call back. Okay, we're not doing video this time, so explain your face just now. It's just I.

12:21 Get it, because it's like the whole you know, twenty four hours missing thing. It's only been a few hours. Not even again you at this point, it's like ten twenty five. Yeah, she was supposed to be showing up roughly or like seven thirty eight o'clock, so it's been like a couple of hours. I get it. But then again, it's like what if something, yeah, did happen, and then you're like, give it another hour. She could be you know, anywhere by then, right, what if. She is lying in a ditch, literally on the verge of bleeding to death. It is hard because yeah, she's an adult. She can, But I think the love of concern to me kind of makes sense, because what is keeping a mother for two and a half three hours just unexpectedly inexplicably not picking up her infant daughter.

13:16 Yeah, that is weird. That's unusual to me. That's it gives not good vibes. His next two calls were placed at eleven twenty nine and eleven thirty four pm. Oh okay, off the hook. Yeah, well Bet. In the third call, at eleven twenty nine pm, he states, Hey, this is Bob A drops again. Have you heard anything or The dispatcher confirms officers have checked around, and in turn asks if Bob checked for her at the salon Rasmataz. Bob confirms he drove there but obviously had not located Debbie or her car, and the dispatcher asks about friends she might have visited. Bob says no, checked called everyone I can think of. Bob didn't inform law enforcement that Debbie was currently living in Salem until the following day, and he reportedly never called her apartment, so she lives in Salem. He doesn't make a point of telling law enforcement, By the way, she doesn't live here in Sherwood with me she actually lives in Salem because we're separated, right, doesn't come up and you think you'd call the apartment. She's not supposed to be there at that point in time.

14:37 But it's logical if you can't find her, like you call her. I mean, couldn't hurt, right, So on the surface that seems a bit odd, But she wasn't supposed to be there, and her stepfather ed Holland had reportedly said he'd been by her apartment already and she wasn't there. Okay, given that added context, I'm not sure that those detail ees feel that significant. Yeah, you know specifically that like, Okay, well, why would a call her apartment? I mean, I guess it never hurts to just check again, honestly, I still would. Yeah, but you know, you never know, like what you're going to do, yea, in kind of a it's a stressful situation, right.

15:19 He thought, is you know who? He probably didn't call? Who? Her new lever ooh Jony boy. Yeah, I was like, I can remember his name, Yeah, but I bet he didn't call him. You know, No, No, from what I understand, he did not. On the morning of November thirtieth, nineteen eighty eight, the Washington County Sheriff's Office took an official missing person report. Debbie's car, a nineteen eighty eight black Honda Accord, was entered into law enforcement databases. So they're, you know, keeping their eyes peeled for that bad boy that's all brand new car back in. Oh yeah, she's sweet. I had a eighty eight Hondo Cord. Oh nice? Yeah?

16:05 What color? It was like chocolate brown? You actually it was a really pretty like shimmery brown. Okay, but unfortunately, uh, the chocolate brown leather interior was an unfortunate choice for a vehicle that did not have air conditioning. Brown. Yeah, bella Swan's favorite color. If you get that reference comment below. And you know what, every time, every time I was driving around, especially like I remember driving down to Salem ironically, you know we're talking about, oh yeah, driving back and forth from Salem in Hillsboro in that car in the summer, it felt like I was in war torn Phoenix.

16:53 I can't imagine. On December first, nineteen eighty eight, at a approximately nine am, a city public works employee called Beaverton Police to report a suspicious abandoned vehicle at the dead end of Southwest Murray Road near Scholesbury Road. Is it still a dead end? Uh? No, I feel like I don't. I don't see there being dead ends on those roads, not so specifically. They're very built up these days. And it's kind of the spot, the very specific spot where they found her car. It's like kind of on the backside of an apartment complex that was like brand new at the time. So crazy, Yeah, crazy because I've lived like right in that little stretch of like Tigered and Beaverton multiple times over the years. But that was unsettling.

17:56 It's spooky to think of like a missings person car being found on a dead end. It just like it. Don't like that vibe. I don't like it either. It's not giving good anything vibes. No, it's giving very dead end vibe. Very dead Yeah, very yeah. Oh like it a little on the nose, you might say. It was parked at the edge of woods near a construction site. The car had no license plates, the driver's window was rolled down, and the keys were on the driver's seat. Hmmm. Frost covered the windows, suggesting it had been there overnight or longer. Witnesses later confirmed it had been parked there since early November thirtieth, approximately five miles from Bob's Sherwood home, and no one took it. I mean it was like basically overnight at some point to like roughly nine am.

18:53 Still, I don't know. Yeah, it was definitely in a spot where there wouldn't have been a lot of passers by. And you have to remember too that in nineteen eighty eight, that like particular part of like right there on the border of essentially Beaverton and Tigered, it was nowhere near as densely populated as it is now. That is true, very farmland y. Yeah. Absolutely. When officers looked in the trunk, they found deb A Trops, sadly deceased. No no, no, no, well, god, good thing. No one took it. Yeah, yeah, that'd be a little upsetting. You steal a car, you get a lot more than new bargain for. I don't know why that. I was not expecting her to be in the trunk. Trunk, like, I feel like.

19:40 That's kind of where a lot of people are found, but for some reason I wasn't expecting that with this one. Well that or sometimes you know, they're just finding this person who's missing, they're just locating their abandoned vehicle and they're not with the vehicle, and then it's like, shit, where is this person? That's where I thought it was going. Yeah, yeah, very okay, yeah, dead end. I thought it would be kind of you. You did foreshadow it, and it didn't. I didn't wasn't pick up. Like I'm not picking up what you're putting down at a tool. Her blue coat and black heels were covered in mud. Based on the positioning of her body, investigators believe she had died elsewhere and then then placed face down in the trunk after her death that I don't know why, but something about being put in the trunk, specifically face down, really bothers me. I think it just feels so disrespectful to place this person face down. Yeah, like you're kind of just yea throw her in there, yeah, like wherever. It just feels I don't know, it just feels disrespectful. I just can you not mess up? Don't mess up my face or my hair. I may be deceased, but like this is how I don't. I don't know, she just got her hair done. I know. Her autopsy later confirmed Debbie's cause of death as manual strangulation following

21:12 a physical assault, though there did not appear to be any signs of a sexual assault. Well, I mean, thank goodness, but still she's dead and was assaulted. Investigators noticed something else at the scene. It looked as though someone had tried to wipe down the hood of the car. There were broad cloth swipes. It looked like across the surface like somebody had, you know, like with their coat sleeve or whatever. But didn't do a good, good enough job to like I gut. Yeah, I mean, it just was obvious because it probably started like condensation was forming and oils or any number of like other substances that may have been present on whatever material that they used to it. Like, I don't know, it just is. It's weird. It's a weird thing. I think they were trying to remove like fingerprints or something.

22:08 I think that's yeah, And literally, law enforcement said, it literally just looked as if someone had been maybe trying to destroy fingerprints. Detective O'Connell and his partner went to Bob's home to tell him they had found his wife's body. A witness who observed Bob after that notification later said that Bob was very calm, much calmer than I would expect. I think it bears repeating to always say you never know how you're going to react. People react in a myriad of ways. There's no one normal way to react. Some people do go into like a very quiet calm, what appears calm from the outside, it's kind of more of like a shock response. Yeah, I get that. If people don't react the way you maybe would, it seems odd.

23:00 M I'm just putting that out there. There's no one correct response. Also, keep in mind, at this point they had been separated for several months, right nearly, she'd been missing for you know, a couple of days. Yeah, so it's like you kind of run through the horrible scenarios in your head to like kind of prepare, I think for the news because it's. Very much how I am. Like, I'm very. Calm in situations, like when I got called that my dog was dying, like I kind of just showed up and was like, Okay, where is she, Let's get her in the car. Let's got like it's very calm. Like a fire started in my friend's oven one time, and I was like, guys, there's a fire in the oven.

23:43 Like just like. Some people reacted in like very pragmatic ways. So and I feel like it's really unfair to judge too much based on just their initial reaction. Sometimes people need a little bit of time to process. So don't judge me. Yeah, I mean, I think horrible half a fire thing a little bit, just a little bit. From the beginning, investigators had no shortage of potential suspects. Debbie's estranged husband, Bob was one name on a list that also included John Pearson, the coworker slash new boyfriend she had recently begun singing along with another ex boyfriend. I'm not really sure why they seemed to even go to him as like a potential. I wish there was a little bit more to tell me, like how they connected dots to like, oh, we should also look at he's maybe a possibility because I'm like, girl, he's like three Kevin Bacon's back right.

24:45 Maybe he had some sort of a record or something. And I didn't believes it interesting that third former flame was Jeff Friedberg, who had loaned Debbie eight thousand dollars to buy her car. I don't know it just even that it just doesn't make sense, and I just anyways. Maybe he's like they're thinking he's coming to collect a debt, so that. That is exactly like, that's one of the avenues that they explored, which felt kind of ridiculous to me, to be honest. But he was apparently a fairly wealthy man living in Salem, so I guess they both lived in Salem. He was living in the Salem area, And there was no evidence of any discord related to finances because apparently he was pretty wealthy. Like I said, so.

25:32 I'm not going to kill someone for eight thousand dollars. No, that he loaned her because he cared about her. And you know, he told investigators that he had been home all night except to get dinner. And it doesn't seem like he faced a super high level of scrutiny by law enforcement. And if he did, and maybe that just wasn't made clear to me through my research, it certainly didn't last because they started looking elsewhere. Can't imagine where. Yeah. Meanwhile, by comparison, Bob didn't have an alibi that could be corroborated. Uh oh. His phone records confirmed no outgoing calls were placed from his phone. His home phone, a landline is literally connected to your wall, remember that on that night, and we know that he placed calls to several of her family members and friends. Obviously he made multiple calls to nine one one, so a lot of questions. I'm going to explain to you what I can. Okay, that's the best way for me to put that, I think at this point. One theory says Bob was placing the phone calls while he was elsewhere, possibly killing Debbie and disposing of evidence, while another theory, perhaps more generous to the defense, would say that he placed the calls at payphones, which obviously were super readily available in nineteen eighty eight. Ultimately, we know he placed several calls to law enforcement as

27:03 well as Debbie's family and friends, but we can't confirm his whereabouts when those calls were placed. For certain, that is very weird, very weird, and there is something else. We'll pull it that threat a little bit more later. I feel like, based on the information that I have found, and I'm not an expert on really anything, but it's certainly not on like nineteen eighties phone technology, I feel like nobody really can say they one hundred percent know exactly what happened in that specific instance, there's some weird stuff with the calls, for sure, some possibilities, I should say.

27:52 At the time, he was working for Allied Building Products, a wholesale distributor of various construction materials, including roofing materials to projects under construction. Practically just a stones throw away from where her car was found. Oh shit, meaning he knew the location, he was familiar with it. It would also come to light that Debbie had feared him. According two close friends of hers, he choked her. Oh I don't like that. You said it. In the beginning. I kind of forgot that. You had said that that he choked her. He choked her, Yeah, and then she was strangled. I don't I don't like that.

28:35 I don't like that. I don't like that. Well, and there's a lot of statistics that have come out over the years that basically like, oh my god, and I'm totally gonna botch it. I don't remember the exact sat. I want to say that in a domestic violent situation, your partner has choked you, you are like seventy two percent more likely to be killed by that individual. Oh my god. And it makes sense because that is violent and it is personal I hate that. I just don't like. It's really upsetting. I don't I never liked anyone like touching my throat or anything like. No, would you. It's not a normal thing to do touch me.

29:16 I don't like it. Probably don't touch me at all, but definitely don't do that. I mean, under the right circumstances. But you know, WHI should be comfortable. Yeah. It would also come to light that Debbie had feared him, specifically stating if anything happens to me, Bob did it, a hunting statement. In hindsight, the underscored domestic violence attested to by Debbie's closest confidants. That's not the first time we've heard that either. Now, No, it's alarming the number of cases that I can think back to a very specific moment in time where the victim has said, if anything happens to me, this person did it. Bob hired a lawyer a week after Debbie's body was found and declined to take a polygraph.

30:06 WHI that's a little weird. It is a little bit weird, But honestly, if you're the ex husband and they find your estranged wife's body five miles down the road from your house, and knowing what we know now about polygraphs, like, you shouldn't agree to take one. Nothing really good comes out of it, because even if you come out looking like you passed, it's not admissible in court typically, So what do you stand to gain that for? Yeah, yeah, it's all part of at this point in time, it's all part of a psychological game that they're playing with you. Back then that was pretty readily used in courtrooms. So it's just interesting that, Yeah, back then you would decline to take one.

30:53 Mm hmm, like I feel like declining anything. But maybe that was from his lawyer's advice. I don't know. Yeah, it's hard to say. I mean that very well could be because he got a lawyer right away. I mean I definitely don't think that's weird. I feel like that's yeah, you probably need to do that. I think back then that stuff was probably more unusual than it maybe would be by today's standards. Who's just ahead of his time perhaps. And I want to say, we're going to come back to John Pearson, her boyfriend at the time, Johnny p just kind of put a pin in him for now, because we are going to talk about him somemorew but we're going to go on different. Nurriction, pinning him up on the wall right now.

31:35 Law enforcement investigated for months, but limitations of available DNA testing in nineteen eighty eight meant investigators could not connect Bob or another specific suspect physically to the scene or to Debby's body. By the fall of nineteen ninety, no charges had been filed, and the case went cold. In the years that followed, Bob remarried. He raised Rihanna, the infant daughter he had shared with Debbie. He built a life in Newburg, Oregon. Though the case was reviewed by several detectives over the years, it remained cold, so Debbie's family and friends waited. In May twenty twenty one, the Washington County District Attorney's Office Cold Case Unit, formed in twenty twenty partnered with the Washington County Sheriff's Office to reopen the investigation into Debbie's murder. The investigation was led by Detective Kevin Winfield. Bob's last interview prior to the cold case reopening had been in nineteen ninety. Wow, that would be crazy. When investigators spoke with him again in twenty twenty two, his story had changed. He now said he had used an MCI card supplied by his employer at the time, out light building products. Okay, so this is something that's different about history. I'm gonna explain it

33:08 as best as I possibly can as someone who's not really used this thing. Okay, A detail that had not appeared in thirty two years of prior statements. Okay, so this is pretty significant that all of a sudden thirty two years later. He If your story is changing thirty two years later, maybe you know your memory is different. I don't know. I can make a case for both sides of what that means. What it should do instead is tell you, uh more about it. In nineteen eighty eight, using an MCI calling card required inputting approximately sixteen digits of a card number followed by another six to eight digit code. So that was used for essentially making like long distance calls. And remember a lot of were long distance, Like we don't think about that as much anymore, like other than international calling. Like you can call pretty much anybody anywhere here in the country now and no big deal.

34:13 That is true. Yeah, I do remember that because I had a friend in like Vancouver, yeah, and I got to call her and it was long distance, long distance from Hillsboro. From the Hillsboro, that's insane, right, Yeah, you don't even think about that anymore. But that's like in our lifetime. I forgot about that. Yep. Remember when you could dial a phone number and there was no such thing as an area. Oh, I do remember that. And then it's like we got to add three extra dishes. Weize three extra dishes? Oh the upheopal just kidding. I've only heard about it in legends from my elders. I told you we had one of those style.

34:55 Like oh, the rotary farah, Yeah, one of those for a long time. Prosecutor Chris Luhman told a jury, if you're frantically looking for your wife, why take the time to do that and enter all those numbers. According to the defense, the long distance calls may not have shown up in his home phone records due to faulty equipment because of the MCI card. I mean that, which makes sense if you have this calling card from your employer, Like long distance calls were not cheap? Yeah, like yeah, I mean maybe initially he wasn't that frantic, so maybe entering the digits so that he wasn't going to pay a bunch of fees for long distance. Like maybe that makes more sense than the prosecutor's statement would imply. He also used it to call the police though, to like report her missing. It's a great question because that wouldn't have been a long distance call. Right, But that was on his home phone record either, right, So where did he place that call from? I don't know. The faulty equipment thing is interesting. Not an expert in that arena, I don't know, hm, But we know he placed all of those calls.

36:18 The calls not coming from inside. That yeah, exactly or allegedly are not coming. Yeah, it's hard to say. The cold case team also pursued two significant new forensic avenues. Debbie's coat as well as soil samples were sent off for additional testing. I love this part. Don't shake your head at me. I'm so fucking angry about this. I could talk about this case for like a week straight and like until my eyes bleed. And the Oregon State Police Crime Lab conducted testing of the coat while the FBI lab received and tested the soil samples. The FBI reportedly concluded that the mud on Debbie's tire did not match the mud where her car was found, but that it was indistinguishable from the mud on Bob's front lawn in color, composition, and texture. Well, shit, okay, your reaction is exactly that's exactly what you would expect to happen. Here's the thing.

37:29 That word choice is deliberate and meaningful in forensic science. There's a crucial distinction between a match and indistinguishable. Oh, it is explicitly not a positive identification of common origin. Well it sounds like one to me, I know, yep, uh huh. It means the analyst could not tell the two samples apart using available methodology, which is a con considerably weaker statement than saying they are a match. This is the same dirt they're saying they can't tell them apart, which means they're a match, not necessarily. I know. We're going to get into why that is so problematic in this case, because here's the thing. Bob's house five miles away from the crime scene. Remember this, okay, because and I'm going to get into it. I'm gonna explain, because holy shit, this is why we can't have nice things. Okay, all right, The soil being indistinguishable has since been framed as evidence that Debbie had been to Bob's property that night, contradicting his claim she hadn't been there in roughly ten days.

38:46 I think is what he has said that might be a reasonable argument to make, And admittedly I don't have any expertise in forensic soil analysis, because as we've established, I am not an expert in really anything, but forensically speaking, it seems to stop well short of proof that does not prove that she was on his property. Samples were never taken from any of Pearson or Friedberg's properties, nor reportedly anywhere else for that matter, only from Bob's and the crime scene. Bob's home and where Debbie's vehicle was discovered were only a handful of miles apart. Debbie's vehicle had been on the property many times previously, as it was her previous residence, so I'd argue without comparative samples from other locations in the same geographic area, the finding is essentially meaningless as proof of origin. You can't, or maybe I should say, you shouldn't. You perhaps shouldn't establish uniqueness without ruling out alternatives. It's like correlation versus causation.

40:03 In my mind, it's scary. At some point a jury will be presented that finding, along with the prosecution's interpretation of it. We took two samples of dirt from five miles away. These two places. They took the only samples we have, and we're going to tell you that they're indistinguishable from each other. Well, no shit, Sherlock. You took two samples of dirt from essentially the same neighborhood. Yeah, I could see that probably matches, like the neighbor's yard, and like, you know. Yeah, exactly, And that's kind of what you need a control. You need to go and take it a couple of other samples from the area. I the dirt, take all of the dirt, and it gets actually so much fucking worse.

40:48 It's maddening. I'm so excited about the soil samples. I know, ah dirt. The FBI didn't do anything wrong in that instance. It's all about how this information is, how it's going to be used. Debbie's coat, stored in evidence since nineteen eighty eight, was submitted to the Oregon State Crime Lab for DNA analysis using techniques unavailable in nineteen eighty eight. The results were complex. The lab ran three separate tests on the coat. The first two essentially ruled Bob out as being a contributor to that DNA sample.

41:29 Debbie's other x's were excluded as well. The third test, after adjusting the analysis parameters, produced the likelihood ratio of one thirty two, meaning it was one hundred and thirty two times more likely that the DNA mixture found on the coat included Bob's contribution than that of a random person. Is that a good number or a bad number? That's a really good question, Cassie. I'm going to explain that to you at length. Okay, good, I'm. Going to actually explain it like a couple of different ways, because it is truly mind boggling, and I'm like going to be shaken with rage the whole time. That number, according to the crime lab's own internal scale, is one of the weakest the lab could have gotten, notably just slightly above an inconclusive result. Damn it, I was like, one hundred and thirty two. That sounds pretty dang good. No, one hundred and thirty two. No, it's definitely not that.

42:34 The methodology and results of the test were contested by the defense throughout the trial, and I keep alluding to a trial or I'm going to explain. I think you can probably guess whose trial it is. Bobby Boy. If you're not sure, I'm gonna tell you. So that was contested by the defense throughout the trial, but the judge allowed the jury to hear that DNA evidence that barely better than an inconclusive result, DNA evidence that they finally got after rerunning it for the third time after adjusting the parameters. Interesting, how did they adjust the parameters? Like, aren't parameters parameters? How do you adjust them?

43:28 Science? How Cassie's brain does not understand science? Science? Well, this truth be told, Like, this is very complex. I didn't fully understand at first why the term likelihood ratio was being used in reference to the DNA test result. So I'm going to explain the methodology used as best as I can. Okay, I'm also like, isn't DNA DNA if it's USU, If it's not, it's not I don't understand. That's exactly how we have all come to understand DNA evidence that is not this a sample or swab taken from a piece of evidence or crime scene may contain multiple DNA contributions, not just a victim and a suspect, but in some cases any number of individuals that came into contact with the person, place, or thing in question. Okay, that makes sense because you know you'd be shedding skin cells constantly. Yes, yes, good girl, you're sciencing. You can I have a cookie. Yeah, I'm going to give you a muffin. Actually, I don't want to brag, but I took forensic science in high school.

44:42 Yeah, kind of an expert. We watched a lot of CSI in that class. Oh no, No, it was mostly to point out what they what they did wrong. Okay, cool, cool, cool cool? Okay, I mean excellent ratings. And you know, one of the biggest funniest things I think I learned is she was like, it makes no sense for them to have the lights off and to use flashlights to search for evidence. You want as much fucking light as possible. Anyway that might take away from forensis Yes, I mean that's totally true. Interpreting results trying to figure out what DNA belongs to which of potentially numerous DNA contributors, can be incredibly difficult for lab analysts. That's where probabilistic genotyping comes in. If you already feel like technology might be ruining everything, consider this your trigger warning.

45:38 Uh oh. For samples with multiple contributors, software programs use algorithms to calculate the likelihood ratio that a random person's DNA was in the sample mixture versus that of a potential suspect. Okay, so, Cassie. In this case, what that means is you, your sample, your DNA is being compared to, like, what's the likelihood that it's someone else's literally just any Joshmo. Okay, so it's you versus random random dude or do debt? Got it? The software then provides a number that the lab will typically help law enforcement or the prosecutor to decipher. An LR of one thirty two means there is roughly a one in one hundred and thirty two chance that a completely random person's DNA would fit the mixture just as well. Okay, I don't like those odds. Yeah. If the crime happened in a large city, a one in one thirty two statistic means thousands of other local residents could also match that DNA sample by pure coincidence. But I thought DNA was specific. I'm so confused. I know I briefly explained that third result already, but it's complex, so I want to try to spell it out like as clearly as possible.

47:08 And I think you can kind of look at it a couple of different ways. There's like different analogies, and reading all of the different examples and kind of explanations really help me to make sense of it, because on the surface, none of us know offhand what the standards are, and like when they're applied to a real world situation, what does that mean? Like how useful is this data? Essentially? So what about a small town? How many people? I mean, it's the same thing. So out of one hundred and thirty two people, right, an LR of one thirty two means there is roughly a one in one hundred thirty two chance that a completely random person's DNA would fit the mixture just as well. So it could be Bob, or it could be one in one hundred and thirty two somebody. So if you have a room full of ten thousand people, yeah, but they would, but they didn't, right, And that's not that's that doesn't help their case, Damn it that's not good. Okay, here's the other part that's really upsetting. According to the Defense the DNA that was found on Debbie's coat color was equivalent to six to seven skin cells. Ever heard of transfer DNA where you just touched something and your DNA is on it? Pretty much? Okay, yeah, I mean it's pretty much exactly what it sounds like, the skin cells. That's right.

48:39 I told you, smart girls. My DNA is all over this place. Yeah, that's right. I better not ever kill you. It occurs during any number of perfectly normal, frequently non violent types of physical contact, for example, shaking hands with someone. After shaking hands with John, Paul, Susie, or Jan, they might touch something else that then leads to a faint trace of your DNA being left behind. This is how I become like a germaphobe. Mm hmm. Is because I could be We're all cannibals. We're all cannibals eating each other's skin cells constantly all day long.

49:27 So a more advanced transfer evaluation might provide greater context or clarify a result like this, But it would be up to a defense team to hire an independent expert to run such testing interpret the results and then hopefully convincingly explain them. In twenty twenty two, Detective Winfield interviewed Bob Atrops and uncovered what seemed like significant discrepancies between his current retelling of events and his nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety statements to police. In February twenty twenty three, the case was presented to a Washington County grand jury.

50:08 The grand jury indicted Bob on one count of second deary murder. Wow. On March I don't think there's enough evidence for that. I'm really glad you're having that reaction, because I mean, I'm certainly it's not like I'm reading you a complete trial transcript, but I can have all of the feelings in the world that maybe he did or didn't do it, but did they prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? I think that's suspect. Yeah, and you're going to find out that we're in pretty good company. On March second, twenty twenty three, at five am, a search warrant was served at Bob Atrop's Newburgh home. He was arrested without incident. To her shock, his daughter Rihanna now last name Stevens, received a phone call at that same hour telling her what had happened. Holy shit, I can't even imagine her yeah reaction to that. This is where, remember I said, put a pin in John. This is where we're going to circle back to John Pearson, Johnny P or alternative suspect as he's frequently been referred to.

51:22 And if you thought that anything that we knew about Bob was damning, oh no, oh boy. One of the most legally significant elements of the trial was the defense's argument that Debbie's boyfriend, John Pearson should have been considered as an alternative suspect. Pearson had been separated from his own wife at the time of his relationship with Debbie, and the defense pointed to a detail from his nineteen eighty eight police interview that they argued was suspicious. In that nineteen eighty eight interview, Pearson gave what investigators described as oddly specific and accurate details about the contents of Debbie's car and trunk on the day she was murdered, including the brand of fast food trash found in her vehicle.

52:18 I mean, if they're spending time together. Really good point that's gonna get brought up, that's gonna get brought up. People are going to point to that. Okay, trunk's a little weird, Like you spend a lot of time in the trunk? Do you do in that trunk? Yep, pretty much exactly. He also accurately described how Debbie's body would have had to be positioned for it to fit in the trunk, which I think maybe one could argue that just based on the limitations of X size space y sized woman perhaps like did they specifically ask him these things or is he just it's It sounds like he was very forthcoming about certain things that were very weird, like.

53:05 Why would you I could see if they're trying to like trap him and ask him, like how do you think her body would have fit? Exactly? And you have to answer because it's police. I could see that. But if he's just saying it willy nilly, that's fucking weird, fucking weird. It sounds like it was definitely more in the fucking weird column. Okay. Defense attorneys argued in court documents, this is consistent with what police documented when her car and body were located. So mister nostrodamis of the crime scene prosecutors and original investigators rejected this framing. They noted that Pearson worked with police to help track down details about Debbie after her disappearance, and that his knowledge of her car's contents was consistent with being her boyfriend. It's a tough sell for me in police never seriously considered Pearson as suspect. I think that's debatable. Perhaps, But while we're talking about John Pearson, let's revisit the topic of DNA.

54:11 Vaginal swabs taken during Debbie's autopsy returned a result that forensic analysts said could not exclude John Pearson as a contributor with a ninety four point six sextillion to one likelihood ratio. That sounds a lot more than one thirty two. But they were boyfriend girlfriend, they've been doing it. My next sentence, as her boyfriend, that wouldn't typically come as a surprise, though right that forensic evidence is certainly far more compelling and statistically significant. Here's the rub. He'd told law enforcement he hadn't had sexual contact with Debbie in the seventy two hours prior to her murder. It's important to note that this type of evidence is equally complex to annaly and interpret accurately, just like I would argue any other type of forensic evidence, and I'm real sorry, is gun gel o graphic up in here for a second?

55:09 Well, my thinking is pretty graphic right now, Like how long does it stay in there? Yep? And that's exactly where we're going. Okay, Yeah, we're gonna get in atomical. I mean I'm curious. Yeah I was too. According to peer reviewed forensic biology research, sperm DNA survival timelines differ significantly depending on where exactly a sample is collected. In vaginal swabs, sperm DNA is typically detectable for up to seventy two hours, okay. In cervical swabs, however, the picture is considerably different. Research has documented sperm persistence in the cervix for up to ten days after intercourse, in a notably better state of preservation than in vaginal samples.

55:57 They just get all up in there, don't they really do? A practitioner resource widely used in forensic sexual assault examination, published by end Violence Against Women International, WHO goes further noting that the commonly applied seventy two hour rule may dramatically underestimate evidence persistence, and references cases involving homicide victims, specifically where persistence timelines were significantly extended. But you have to admit, just on the surface, what most of us as laymen think or believe we understand about this type of evidence doesn't look good. So as morbid as it is to ponder, and I don't raise this lightly, the anatomical origin of that particular swab matters enormously a sentence.

56:51 I never thought I'd say, a vaginal vault sample and a cervical sample tell very different stories about when that sexualual contact may have occurred. Oh, whether that distinction was documented in nineteen eighty eight with the specificity modern forensic protocol would require is a question that I can't fully answer. So I wouldn't say that that DNA evidence necessarily establishes guilt, specifically for John Pearson. What I will say is that's a much more compelling result. Yeah. Yeah, sextillion sextillion, interesting number, I know, ironically from the sexual contact Yeah huh.

57:38 The trial of Robert Elmer A. Drops began on April first, April Fool's Day really, twenty twenty. Five last year. Wait, yeah, last year. In Hillsboro, Oregon, at the Washington County Courthouse. It was the first case to go before a jury since the county formed its cold case unit in twenty twenty. Two. Weeks of testimony followed, during which witnesses were asked to recall events from more than thirty years earlier. That's hard yep, that's a rough one. The prosecution, led by senior Deputy district Attorneys Alison Brown and Chris Luhman, built its case on four pillars. The DNA evidence from the coat attractive, the mud allegedly matching Bob Sherwood's property boo indistinguishable.

58:33 Not a match. The documented absence of phone records corroborating Bob's alibi honestly the best evidence probably that they have of him, and even that seems like there's some question about. And then Debbie's own documented fear that Bob would harm her if he discovered her relationship with Pearson. Here's something that you don't see discover a lot. And I get it because in a way, it feels like sort of defaming the victim. A lot of people said that Debbie kind of told tall tales, a lot of really dramatic stories that they knew were not completely true. So people do that. I think we should believe victims, and we should believe women.

59:27 It does call some things about the alleged abuse into question. For me, okay, a little bit, a little bit, just saying I wasn't there. The defense, led by attorneys Stephanie Pollen, April Yates, and Janie Piasol, challenged the DNA methodology as they should, the timeline of events, and the absence of any direct witness to the crime. They argued the DNA evidence was unreliable given the number of tests run before a positive result was obtained fair, and suggested that investigators had been so focused on Bob from the beginning that they had failed to adequately consider alternative suspects. Seems like it might also be fair they didn't not look at anyone else. They just were like not really looking that hard at anyone else, and didn't do a very good job of some other stuff, which.

1:00:23 Maybe explains why it went cold for so long. I mean, could be, could be. I mean, you know, limitations of like the technology is obviously like there's a you know, there's an allowance for that in some respect. But yeah, it's not great. It's not great. It's not great. There is one final dimension of Pearson's relation to the case that I haven't addressed yet and it's pretty shocking. Oh. No, okay. In August of twenty twenty four, the Washington County Prosecutor issued a subpoena to Pearson's home in Prineville, Oregon, indicating his testimony at Bob's trial was required. He did not respond to that or any of the other multiple attempts made to contact him. Hmmm. A week before the trial's original start date of October twenty second, twenty twenty four, law enforcement in Arizona attempted to serve Pearson with a material witness warrant, which would have compelled him to appear, and with cross jurisdictional cooperation, effectively extradited Pearson from Arizona to Oregon for the court proceedings. Okay, but John Pearson never testified. Why. I'm so glad you asked? Was he abducted by aliens? I don't know, Arizona man. Yeah, I mean, it's listen, anything goes at this point. Clearly it is

1:01:54 a kangaroo court. When the Majave County Sheriff's Office arrived at an Arizona RV park to attempt to serve him. Pearson reportedly peeked outside and told officers, I can see you too, as officers announced themselves, what a creep Yes? Is that not so creepy. He then pointed a gun to his head and fired a single shot. What wait what? His death delayed the trial by several months, and the defense's alternative suspect argument went to trial without its most significant witness.

1:02:36 I mean that says a lot, though, should they did they present that? As defense attorney Janice Parisol stated in so many words, Pearson took his own life to avoid being taken into custody to testify. That's crazy, not even for him to be brought to trial, like to be tried just to testify that hit. That man's guilty definitely doesn't seem like the actions of someone who doesn't have anything suspect to share, who kills themselves if they're innocent instead of going to someone else's trial. Yeah, it's pretty wild stuff.

1:03:17 I mean, maybe he had mental health issues. I don't know, but it seems wild. That is a detail that only deepened the question surrounding him, though apparently not for everyone. The jury deliberated for less than a day in Bob's case, which is pretty quick. Oh No. On April seventeenth, twenty twenty five, Robert Elmer A. Trops was found guilty of second degree murder on what outside the courthouse, Defense attorney Stephanie Polland told OPB we are disappointed by the verdict. Robert A. Trops is an innocent man. We will be filing an appeal and we will continue to fight until he's back home with his family.

1:04:03 I feel like that evidence, the evidence is like. It feels generous to call some of the evidence to be honest. Yeah. Wow. I feel like that's a trial where like. They obviously there. You can't say they're guilty because there's nothing actually there, but they can. On July eighth, twenty twenty five, Robert Elmer Atrops, seventy years old and visibly emotional in court, was sentenced to life in prison, with the possibility of parole after twenty five years. Holy shit. Prosecutor Alison Brown addressed the court he was able to live his life to a degree and experience many many things she never had the opportunity to experience. Okay, which is true. He actually did it, though I'm not I don't know.

1:04:58 Maybe he did, but like, yeah, there's evidence, Yeah, you have to prove it. Someone called Kim Kardashian get her on the case. Oh god, please, honestly, like, I want that from him because I know that's how shit gets done. Actually, right he is. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's unfortunate. I think it's important to note here that the Atrops's adopted daughter, Rihanna, does not believe that Bob is guilty. Obviously, she was a literal infant, you know, little more than a fetus, one might say, when all of this happened. But she grew up with him, she was raised by him. She simply does not believe him capable of the heinous crime for which he has now been convicted. I'm sure a lot of daughters wouldn't want to believe something so awful about the man that raised them. Some do, and yeah, and there are many, you know, confirmed killers that their families have grappled with that, and they say, you know, unfortunately, he super duper did that. Equally confident in the opposite direction are many people that loved Debbie and fully believe justice was done with his conviction. Rihanna Stevens, who was only eight months old when Debbie was murdered, and who was raised by the man just convicted of that murder, addressed the court directly. Her statement was one of the most emotional moments in a case full of them. When

1:06:29 I was eight months old, someone robbed me of getting to have a life with my mom there to support my every milestone, my first birthday, kindergarten graduation, eighth grade promotion, high school graduation, my wedding, the birth of my own children. My mom wasn't there for any of that. Thirty six years later, I'm being robbed of my father, the man that was there for all of those milestones. Oh God. She described Bob as the parent who had been present for everything. He was the one in the crowd when I looked up nervously from the volleyball court. He was the one holding my hand when I felt lost. As Rihanna spoke, Bob broke down in the courtroom. The defense had sought a minimum of ten years before parole at eligibility, but the judge imposed twenty five. Wow.

1:07:26 The judge who sees how much evidence come through his courtroom constantly. Wow. An appeal has been filed, and as of May twenty twenty six remains in its early stages, with no decision expected, possibly for at least another year under normal Oregon appellate timelines. Damn, because this shit happens, roll slow, so slow. I stumbled upon something on the Washington County Sheriff's website that got me thinking, maybe I need a tenfoil hat. But hear me out. On their Cold Case Investigations tab of the website, case number eighty eight DASH one three six three zero Deborah A. Trops is still listed under again their Cold Case Investigations tap.

1:08:20 Now I don't disagree with that. I mean, there are details in the description of the case that appear to be inconsistent with the facts of the case reported elsewhere. So we're talking about basic details of the timeline. It's possible that the page hasn't been updated since the arrest or they're just summarizing, you know, it was a cold case investigation. I don't know, maybe they just haven't updated since the arrest or conviction. But potential inaccuracies related to the case are a troubling possibility in any scenario for there to be details that maybe you are inconsistent or possibly inaccurate. That's upsetting that's official, like government law enforce website. It's just weird. It's just weird that there's not a lot of information beyond like the early stages of the case too. I don't like that.

1:09:08 It just looks weird to me. Yeah, the agency that investigated the case has not closed it out on their own public facing website after a conviction, Like, yes, it was a cold case investigation, but it just feels a little bit out of place, like it's on the same page as lonnie Kai's case. Lonnie Kai's case is definitely unsolved. Meanwhile, there's an active pending appeal. As opp's forensic reporter covering the case suggested in print, the county may find itself litigating again. Maybe they only want to update the website once. I don't disagree with that. I don't know. I'm just saying it's weird. It doesn't imply necessarily that there. It just it feels a little it's odd. It's like they even think, like you, that they would take the chance to be like we solved this one, right, but they don't even think that they have.

1:10:05 That's what it That's how it feels. I get that, like maybe that's a little extreme of a viewpoint to take. Before we move on to our terror reading, I want to share something else and it comes directly from OPB's coverage, So I'm going to read this basically verbatim. In the final argument jurors heard during the trial's closed in April, prosecutors laid out their theory about what that forensic evidence meant. We knew that this DNA was found on her neck, on her collar, and other area of her coat. No one else's was right, Senior Deputy District Attorney Alison Brown told jurors they didn't actually swab that jacket until a couple of years ago, So after thirty five years, there's still the defendant's DNA on her jacket. Brown goes on to state, we've got evidence of actually having that physical contact with her that's directly connected to her murder. How can you say that that's a really good point. You have evidence that he actually physically contacted the clothing that she was wearing at the time that she was murdered. But it's an outer coat, it's like a winter coat. Yeah, this is someone that she was married to, and if you believe the defense or like the DNA experts interpretation of this. It's super inconclusive.

1:11:27 It's a trace amount of DNA that contradicts what DNA analysts from the Oregon State Police Crime Lab who worked on the case with Brown testified to just days earlier, they told yours there's no way to know when the DNA got on the coat, and they said they couldn't tell how it got there. Before Brown's closing, no one from the lab said they tested Deborah's neck for DNA. Seems kind of significant in a manual strangulation case. Yes. When opp asked Brown if she was concerned about her statements being inconsistent with what analysts from the Oregon Crime Lab testified, Brown demurred. The lab's job isn't to advocate or to make any conclusion. She said, that's our job to do our best to piece it together for the jury and make our arguments. One of a Trop's attorneys, Jenis Pirosol, said in a statement that DNA being misinterpreted in court was what they were worried about all along.

1:12:29 The state used unreliable DNA evidence. This isn't the DNA you see on television. She said. The state just convicted an innocent man. It is hard because like it's what you see. DNA is like a finger like that. Yeah, it's you, and it can't be anybody else because it's your specific, unique DNA. Yep. Since the start, the DNA evidence and the A trops case posed a challenge for both sides. According to the Oregon Lab's own internal chart their own standards, the DNA results were relatively weak and the finding is based on complex statistics, far from how DNA is depicted in popular culture. It's the task of both prosecution and defense to present a compelling story to the jury, a narrative of events that draws on what was presented during the trial.

1:13:23 Not lies, though bars. What Brown's closing remarks demonstrate is that the final words jurors here can stretch the bounds of what the evidence shows. And that's totally legal. By the way. I hate that that, Uh, there's a different threshold for accuracy because those statements aren't evidence, they're an argument. I don't like. That because they're these people are not experts. They're looking to an expert to tell them what is going on, not to like make up stories.

1:14:04 Right, But their closing arguments can essentially make assertions that aren't really backed up, and that's totally kosher. I never really thought about that. Yeah, I think that everyone who is a juror needs to take a class unlike what this shit actually means and how much it. And even if you do, there's a lot that goes into a jury trial. And I think, you know, I understand why sometimes people elect for a bench trial. Makes sense. Do you trust twelve dummies that live in the same county as you, No, or a neighboring county, not at all.

1:14:47 We grew up in Washington County. I have never been more ashamed to say that that is crazy. Listen, I wasn't there for the whole trial. I haven't seen every piece of evidence that was laid out. I haven't heard all of the testimony because I physically wasn't there for the trial. But I will say, based on all of the research that I've done and everything that I've read and you know, pieced together, I don't think they proved anything. I think the most compelling person in this case is John Pearson. I don't think he really. Killed himself so he wouldn't have to go to the trial. Not his own trial again, not his own trial. Wanted so badly not to be extradited to Oregon for somebody else's trial. So that's a thing that happened in case, you know, everything else that's happening on the world stage wasn't already upsetting enough.

1:15:44 Right, You really got me though in the beginning with the whole I know he choked her thing, and he may have. Yeah, we don't know. It's a legend. Yeah, I mean, it's very possible that it's possible he killed her, but like, you have to prove it. You have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And we're saying a reasonable doubt. We're not saying like you have to be able to produce a photo of him killing her, Like this is not reasonable to me at all. Doesn't seem reasonable. Edge hole, and I took friends of five. Oh dude, JR. I'm like, listen, it's entirely possible that maybe I'm way off base here, but a lot of the coverage there's a reason that they give Rihanna such a platform. Yeah, I feel so bad. When they first introduced her in the piece that I watched, I was like, girl, of course you don't want to think your dad did it, and you didn't even really like know your mom, you know of her, but like, and then the further we got in, I was like, listen, girl, I'm sorry about those things I said. You might have been right. Oh no.

1:17:04 I think that's the problem is that it feels like I don't know, you don't know, they don't know, and now it's pretty far down the line and pretty far fucked up for anybody to really be able to know. I think sometimes sometimes the case just gets too far gone and then it's like, oh great, another great mystery of our modern era. Oh boy, just something to think about in case you were having a good day. I mean I kind of was, yeah. Well, I I you know, after this, we'll we'll go get some strawberry muffins. Should we do some Terrastsyeah, let's do some terror. Wow, I get a shuffle them. I haven't been here to shove, I know. I was excited.

1:17:51 I was like, oh damn, that'd be Rihanna, Bob. If you're innocent, Okay, where do we feel Maybe just like run your hands and see if anything like I feel like hot? Yeah. This one was just really upsetting because it's like we know that there are so many cases where it's like, wow, that was really bullshit. But this is just like such a recent example and it feels personal because of you know, proximity and like that's where we grew up. And then the fact that it's like, oh, this is the first so they start the cold case unit in Washington County and then this is the first one.

1:18:41 This is the first one that goes to trial. Not a great start, Like we want them solved, not solve them though, And if you can't, then you can't. Then they're where they started. Yeah, some cases they're they're not there yet. Maybe I don't know, just that dead end. I feel like my eyes keep going back to like here, Oh. That's interesting because that's where I was looking when your hands were up and I was like middle finger, left hand, interesting, okay, oh, right hand, wow, hand it is for you right hand? Ooh okay, oh it's a tower. I mean that's accurate. My face. I'm going to give you the little book Chaos, everything falling apart.

1:19:24 I'm gonna put you down, baby. Throw that on the floor. Throw on the ground, on the ground. It didn't throw the dog on the ground. Don't you guys worry. It's a Douglas fur oh crisis, destruction, ruined, chaos, collapse, trauma, devastation, sudden change. Well accurate. I mean sometimes it's the accuracy that gets me. Yeah. Do you want to read this? It's pretty short, sure, okay? From our little interpretation book for the PNW deck. Well, it's the Civic Northwest Herrot the PNW. If you nask, a spark catches and the tender dry forest flares up like a matchhead. A wave of heat and fleeing wildlife precedes the spread. Nests, dens and russ burn. Millions of homes are engulfed, Millions of lives, plant and animal are sacrificed in fire. Nothing will be the same after the cataclysm, but destruction doesn't mean conclusion.

1:20:30 I really like that because it gives me hope for Bob. And life returns after a fire in time and maybe a lot of time. Yeah, And sometimes a towering giant even survives the burn. They carry the scars and twist around the damage, but they keep growing. I think this is so accurate for like what's happening with I mean, he could hopefully he gets out. I mean, I don't know. There were always these scars from this and burns and nothing's going to change the trauma that has happened from the murder and the conviction.

1:21:12 Conviction, Okay. When this card appears, it usually means you've ignored or denied something that's rotten and needs to be blown apart. Oohoo, someone blew apart is rotten head, That's all I'm gonna say. I mean. Or it could literally be talking about the entirety of the justice. Yes, no, I agree with that, That's all I'm gonna say. So one more literal. Yeah, you're probably surprised, but you shouldn't be. You knew changes were necessary, but you refuse to take action. Then something happens losing a job, the end of a relationship, an accident, a financial setback that forces you to face a reality big time wrongful conviction. Your life is collapsing around you, but that old, worn out structure had to go.

1:22:01 The tower demands you free yourself from the self created fortress, which is really ironic for someone who is just convicted in which you've imprisoned yourself. Oh shit. In the wake of the chaos, a new order can grow. In a reading about money, this card heralds a major change in your finances. An unexpected loss or stepback may cause you to reassess your attitudes about money when you have to write a huge check for your three person defense team, oh shit, and perhaps free you from your attachment to wealth, status, possessions, and the related responsibilities. If the reading is about your work, the tower may represent a sudden job loss or change in your workplace. Yes, you're shocked and field of rug's been pulled out from under you, But this may be exactly what you need to escape the walls that trapped you.

1:22:55 In a reading about love, this card suggests you need to overthrow false site ideas, old habit patterns, and outdated ways of relating to a partner. A breakup or major change in a relationship is necessary and eminent. With it will come more freedom. Or like you know, the relationship between like a jury and the person giving their clothes the closing statements. What are they just lawyers? I don't, Yeah, I mean prosecutor prosecutor that's what I was thinking, Which I mean they are lawyers. Yeah, that's like the more more specific, yes, exactly specific, like giving a specificity of the specification. It's like they're putting on a show, like it's just like an act.

1:23:37 There's a lot of showmanship involved in like presenting a good legal argument, and I don't like that. I don't like that because I mean, the other person is isn't it as good of an actor as you are, Like, it doesn't matter what the evidence is. I mean, I think that that is certainly a career where you need to be a good public speaker, a good orator, but performer that specific word that you used or actor, that is where it turns in the wrong direction for me, Like. It has nothing to do with the actual thing that's happening. Yeah, you're just good at talking out of your ass.

1:24:20 And I think it's really important that the OPB reporter who's followed the case, they ask some very good and pointed questions. I will say, fucking shame on the rest of the news organizations that like haven't really pointed out how problematic this is in the same way. Oh wow, they haven't gone in depth. And you know, not all stories are covered the same in all outlets. But it's troubling to me that if you see coverage of this in certain certain other media outlets, your interpretation of it may be very different.

1:25:01 Yeah, like and his DNA was found, he was feeling guilty. There you go, case's closed. Boomboo, exactly exactly. And it's not because obviously it's not because of just the simple fact of a differing viewpoint. It's because there's just a lot that's missing if you don't have all of the facts, and you don't have some of these really important details about how evidence was processed, how it was then subsequently presented to a jury. I mean, to me, this is just it's dicky, it's upsetting. They had to change the analysis parameters for them to get anything like yes, that is insane to me.

1:25:43 Third times, the charms I said, parameters are parameters are parameters? Like what the fuck are you changing? Yeah, and even adjusting the parameters that is such a weak ass result. Yeah, one two. It's not good. It's not getting one thirty two on a test No. One two compared to And again this is not this doesn't prove guilt of the other party, John Pearson. But one thirty two versus ninety four point six sextillion, that's nuts. So anyways, in conclusion, I hate everything, and see you guys next week.

1:26:26 I guess well, we can actually say our outro together. Since we're together, we don't we don't cancel each other's audio out over riverside. Oh my Gord, have a creepy ass day. We'll see you next Thursday. I almost said Tuesday. Well you didn't gets me or almost gets me? Every dame sixty percent of the time, it worked every day. Well, I hope this is we get some good news on this someday for Bob and Rihanna and Debbie. She deserves to have it solved for real real. Yeah, that's oh my god.

1:27:10 There's so much to this that's like a part that I like, hardly even touched on, is that it just feels like some people are satisfied with it, but does that It just doesn't feel like justice if you don't feel like they got the guy and they got him the right way, right and maybe he did it. I don't know. I don't know. Bob his daughter does. Yeah, I don't know, man, I don't like it. Let's just like not not subtle for this type of yes, trial conviction. It's not good enough. There's unreasonable doubt for reason right right. No, Settling is something that you do after you've tried on too many pairs. Of g ES. I also said unreasonable doubt. And I'm a reasonable, but it was unreasonable in this case reasonable And on that note, the puppy's bedding my feet, so that's a maybe, that's a wreck.

1:28:08 Bye bye okay,