Oregon's Deadliest Shooting – Umpqua Community College

0:02 October first of twenty fifteen, at the Umpquah Community College campus near Roseberg in Oregon, Christopher open fire inside Room fifteen of Snyder Hall. This tragic incident marked the forty fifth time that year. Those living in the US and others watching from the world at large were left to mourn yet another school shooting on US soil. Hi, Kennessey, Hi, Caitlin, Hi. Creepy people, helloo, and the waving continues.

0:46 We're back in our normal zone, recording zone. Everything here is normal. We still have trees behind us, but they're not real. Yeah. I was like, what, we got a lot of common it's on our background for the last couple episodes. Oh that's true. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. You guys liked it. It's very p and W. Yeah, we do what we can. It's fitting because this is. P and W hans and homicides, where we shut about drue crime, the paranormal, and most importantly the Pacific Northwest, arguably I think pretty important is kind of key to the whole thing. It's kind of important. Uh huh uh huh.

1:27 And it's the PNW. If you're nasty and as I was like, oh god, we're saying it. I did it. Okay, I can do it too. We can rely on each other, Okay, all right, just kind of take that roal shell pells. And also sometimes do you know what else starts with tea? Oh? Clever cigo taro, which we do in every episode for a little deeper insight into our topic. That's try. We do tongues and tar in every episode. I mean normally, I don't think every episode requires Tom's, but when in Rome, I don't know.

2:09 I feel like, especially yours sometimes would require toms because I get very upset. Yeah, I hear like, hmm, indigestion. Maybe it's fitting. I don't know. Yeah, it's true crime today. You saw it on the slapper. On the slip Actually we probably cut that part out, but yeah, well, you know, we don't know what Tailor does. Talan's version. Who could say? You know what else starts at the tea? Taylan? Oh, I love that Tailan's version. Yeah, oh it's so close too, I know. Oh my god, which speaking of Tailan, we should say just real quickly. I don't know if you guys saw the hand, did you guys see the fucking avatar ghost that we have it was episode. Duh, I know it was on news episode.

3:00 I don't know the number off the top of my head. Yeah, okay, yeah, two o one. There was some freakin' activity and we caught it. Taylor caught it. She saw it, and we're gonna talk for about it. We'll have probably an episode where we have her on we need to and we're going to talk. All about it. Yeah, yeah, because it was really exciting when we found out we caught something. Yeah, and I don't care what anyone says, well that's not true. I'm very interested. But unless you have a better explanation than was that, Charlie couldn't have been.

3:40 It must have been upstairs. I do you have been. I mean, we're just talking about this thing that happened in this office. Seriously, and we have had the infestation to end all infestations. You guys, It's like something out of a horror movie. Oh no, I feel like at this point in the movie you'd be telling these people like, oh girl, you in danger, but like nothing that was like such a big red flag that you'd immediately move. Not yet, so stay tuned for that. Wait, you have to wait until the locusts get in that's bro.

4:20 We have had and I kid you not, Okay, it's that time of year and we've started putting out stuff because ants are gonna they're coming in, okay, And they have been on a very small scale, and it's been manageable and we've gotten rid of them, and hopefully we have used almost everything on God's green Earth I could think of to just get stay away ee wee. But we have had, I kid you not. One day Chris found or more accurately, I found and instructed cue like over a dozen spiders and there had been at least three a day after that, for like a full week, and it made me kill one today today, Yes, and there was a bee in here. Ah, there was a bee in here earlier today, and I was like, okay, did it get your bonnet? No?

5:20 Isn't a thing in your bonnet? Yeah? No. So my impressive record of still, you know, having lived twenty nine glorious years on earth without being stunned stung remains like, what do you mean you are stunning? It's done, it's done, it's done. Yeah, rough times here Remember that wasp ness that like appeared in front of your house? Dude? I just I really want just things that like shouldn't be in or around my house to just you know, just go be where you should be. Go be okay elsewhere any Who's all? I don't even know. I don't even know where we left off.

6:08 But I don't either, because you guys probably didn't hear it, but we were talking about the ghost hand thing and how we're gonna have tailor on and then we heard like a bang. Yes somewhere. Oh my god, thank god you at least remember that. Yeah, I don't remember what you were saying, but. Oh, I started to say. I hope that it's not It's not that I don't care or that I will accept no other explanation, but somebody needs to produce a better explanation than just like the term camera artifacts, right, yeah, especially if they cannot adequately explain to me, like a four year old, what a camera artifact is. I mean, I know what they are, and that I don't I don't know, I don't know.

6:57 Well, well, we'll go into it though, we'll talk about it in depth in an episode because it's crazy. But if you want to give us your opinion on what it is like, please feel free. Would love to hear it, but it better be good. Yeah, you can watch the video or we made it reel about it. You see it there, Yeah in stigreem. Yeah. Okay, well that seems like we've kind of stole that out as long as we can. So should we do this? Let's do it. I am prepared. It's so cute you think that. Christopher Sean Harper Mercer was born July twenty sixth, nineteen eighty nine, in Torrance, California, to parents Ian, an Englishman, and Laurel, an African American woman. Notably, quite a bit of reporting would state or speculate that he had actually been born abroad across the pond in the UK. I haven't found anything that actually substantiates that, so I think that that's just kind of what happened in the media circus after the fact of the thing we're going to talk about. At any rate, the couple would separate prior to his birth, and though they had custody arrangements in place, they were not enacted through much of his early life. It seems so Dad had visitation

8:28 and or partial custody, but it doesn't seem like that really happened. It's unclear exactly why that is, Okay, fast forward. By twenty thirteen, he'd lived nearly his whole life with his mother, Laurel, and when they moved to Oregon, he would see even less of his father in the years immediately following their move, which was only a couple of years. Based on these facts alone, his early life might have seemed slightly sad, perhaps even a little fraut. You know, children of parents that have separated or you know, of divorce sometimes have a tough time. But he wasn't even born when they separated, So this is the only thing he's ever known, right, Yeah, not to take away from that, but still must be tough though.

9:17 It's like, yes, you have a single mother trying to raise you. It's got to be hard, yeah, But it was an entirely devoid of the tender moments that you know, one kind of hopes every child experiences growing up. His mother would write online that Christopher, as well as herself, had been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome. She claimed he wasn't a and this is a quote babbling idiot, and stated that she'd read aloud to him as a newborn from Donald Trump's The Art of the Deal. Wow. Personally would have probably stuck with something more like Baby Einstein type material, but I'm not going to come for her parenting at this wish she was reading to him like, I mean, it's something I kind of thought, like, hey, you know, I mean there are times when he has, you know, proven to be more or less problematic throughout his existence, and I feel like back then, a lot of people just thought, oh, you know, he's kind of a kooky guy. Oh billionaires, am I right?

10:22 If they only knew? Yeah, oh boy, many would describe Christopher as quiet, even as a bit of a loaner. There's not exactly a shortage of people willing to comment on the details of his youth. But that's kind of the overwhelming theme, is like quiet kid kind of seemed like a loner, right, And. All these people commenting since he was a loaner, clearly weren't really like his friends or. Right, probably not the closest people to him, but you know, people who saw him potentially fairly frequently, a lot of neighbors and like people that he went to school with. So you know, I said, there were a lot of people willing to comment on the details of his youth, but I mean that was aside from the United States Military.

11:11 They didn't really want to comment. Oh okay, Christopher had enlisted in the Army and entered basic training at Fort Jackson in South Carolina in two thousand and eight, only to be discharged just a month later. Yikes. Yeah, yeah, And I was like, listen, I certainly never been involved even on frankly a cursory level with the military in any way. But to me, that was like, oof, Okay, that seems like kind of a red flag. It sounds like you just like maybe didn't pass your physical or something like. You could could be that certainly. Yeah. Yeah. The circumstances were, and even now remained to a lesser degree, kind of shrouded in mystery. There's not a lot that like conclusively says, but we'll get to that, Okay. Through the course of a larger investigation, it would come to light it was suspected that a suicide attempt was the cause of his discharge. No. Yeah, the Army would decline to discuss the details.

12:20 Well, okay, that's fair. If it was like a that's like something medical, you know, you can't really discuss that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. Enough, right, But still his fascination with guns would remain a constant. He and his mother owned numerous guns, and target practice was a popular bonding activity in their household. Did they use Trump's book to target practice? I don't think so. That's not the impression that I got. What might be a little less clear is when exactly Christopher began engaging in social media and various forums like four chan that proudly touch a lot of racist and in sell ideologies nice as well as those that glorify mass shooters. This, no doubt seems like an all too predictable, deadly recipe at this point.

13:15 Social media is no good man. I mean social media in and of itself, but like when you go to the darkest corners of the Internet. So true, we'll talk a little teensy bit more about But later statements made by his mother would indicate, though she did not state it outright, that again this goes back to his military service. Can we I mean training? Yeah? Yeah, military, mom, I. Don't know if you really served anything. Yeah, I mean you're in basic, so I think at that point it's obviously still just training if you even made it that far. Well, he was in basic Yeah, that a potentially staged suicide attempt by Christopher had led to his swift discharge, And I feel like the fact that their speculation around it being staged is kind of an interesting component. Not a lot of information about that.

14:16 It's unclear whether he truly intended to take his own life in the vague incident described during an interview with law enforcement. His mother would also recall receiving a phone call from a hospital around the time of his discharge from the military, not from the hospital. Though The Wall Street Journal did reach out to the Army, they declined to comment or discuss any details. Obviously we already mentioned this is their citing constraints due to privacy regulations. I mean, that's kind of a It would be a shame if the US government did something that compromised our service members private information, wouldn't it.

14:57 Oh, they would never do that. Any who's a we are going to take It's a real sharp left. It's a real sharp left. I look to my right. Yeah, there's not a great way to transition, So here it is, Okay. October first of twenty fifteen, at the Umpquah Community College campus near Roseberg in Oregon, Christopher open fire inside Room fifteen of Snyder Hall. This tragic incident marked the forty fifth time that year. Those living in the US and others watching from the world at large were left to mourn yet another school shooting on US soil.

15:42 It was also the nine hundred and ninety fourth mass gun attack in the US in that three year period following Obama's reelection. Holy shit. At the time, it appears that the perpetrator was enrolled in the introductory position class, where he shot a number of victims. Survivors would later state that a number of the victims were questioned about their religious beliefs prior to being shot. Ooh like oh, like the Columbine. Yes, and it's definitely something that's come up in relation to his case. Obviously, he's somebody that I've already mentioned, has you know, been involved in discussions online that glorify mass shooters, Yeah, specifically the perpetrators of Columbine and several other really horrific shootings.

16:34 God. Also, this is something in particular that seems kind of unusual for a shooter that billed himself as not being aligned with organized religion, like even a little bit like he was. Actually there was a lot of speculation that his crimes may have been sort of an anti religious I don't know how else to put it, but like almost like an anti religious hate crime. Okay, bizarre in this case, though, their responses hardly seemed to matter to the shooter in the end, as so many in the room that fateful day were ultimately systematically gunned down, it really didn't seem to matter what the answer was. In the aftermath, a statement provided by law enforcement indicated that as the shooting progressed, there was less engagement between the shooter and his victims, and he shot randomly and appeared to be trying to kill as many people as possible.

17:36 Throughout the ordeal, horrified students and staff reacted in nearly every imaginable possible way, some seemingly stunned into silence as they hoped to honestly just avoid the shooter's erratic gaze, and he was frequently described by survivors as being very erratic. It's an un understandable reaction in the face of this type of I mean, really almost unfathomable violence. It's just horrifying. It's just not something that most people have experienced firsthand. No, I mean, it's certainly becoming more commonplace, unfortunately.

18:19 But that's like, I don't want to hear the word erratic in like with someone holding a gun, you know. Actually holding multiple guns. Oh fuck dude. Yeah. Others were spurned into various forms of action. At least one survivor described pretending to be dead as the shooter swept in their direction. Another would tell investigators they desperately smeared a neighboring victim's blood on themselves in order to avoid detection as a potential survivor amongst the group. Which is I mean this person to have I mean, to be able to react in that way in this circumstance is I mean, it's horrific. And I'm sure you know, to them, it's like this is absolutely survival mode. The trauma that I'm sure all of these people really now experience in hindsight.

19:23 But to look back on that, and I mean that just the guilt that people surely have to feel. It's such a common thing to have survivor's guilt, and I can't even really put in towards I mean, it's not something that I've experienced, so I just it's heartbreaking. You use a deceased person blood so that you can live like that is so sad. Yeah, that one really blew me away. Tracy Hugh recalled shooter entering the classroom and hurting everyone into the center of the room. She was huddled with the others on the ground as Serena Moore attempted to climb out of her wheelchair, though she was instructed to get back into it.

20:16 The gunman shot her as she attempted to do so. Though Serena sadly died that day, she was not alone beyond her horrified fellow classmates that looked on her service dog remained quietly at her side. Her dog, named Bullet, survived the shooting. What the fuck. A good puppy. I know, Whome's a good boy, and we are going to get to some things that are going to seem like insane. But I promised you at the beginning, before you even got here today, I was like, this is so horrific. But it's like two sides of a coin and they are it's like so dark, and there's still so much silver lining like an equal measure. They're fucking better be.

21:15 I don't know why, Like I guess I don't need to like analyze why fucking murderers doing what they're doing, but just like to have someone struggling in a wheelchair to get back in to do what you told them to do and then to do that, oh my god, Like yeah. Like why am I even wondering why. He's doing what he's doing because it's all just fucking awful. No, it is, it is, it is, And I feel like the thing is is that you know, when you know survivors and then law enforcement they're echoing that you know, he was so erratic, that just really drives it home. It really does, like you can get like a better sense of what was happening.

21:57 I mean, and it's really a mind fuck because, like you said, it's like she was doing what you said to do and then but I mean he, I mean, it was clear that he was there to kill as many people as possible. And it's never going to really make sense. Like you can understand aspects, but I mean you're never gonna wrap your head completely around it, and I don't want to. Of course, by now, everyone on campus in Snyder Hall, as well as some neighboring areas, they were all aware that there was an active shooter in their midst That makes up a small ish section of the overall campus, though, and an active shooter can move quickly. Yeah all over Most present at the time fled to safety or attempted to shelter in place, however they could. Tracy Hugh, despite her desperation to survive the ordeal she was a MoMA three, accepted the risk, as she whispered to another survivor, he's only one person. We just got to do something about it, or we're all just going to die. Little did she know another brave soul, already adopting much the same mindset, was hard at work trying to ensure the survival of as many people as possible, and also at great personal risk to himself. As he

23:30 moved against others fleeing, he seemed at once aware and yet preternaturally determined to continue directly toward the shooter, terrified and pained screams and the gunfire. Originally from Randleman, North Carolina, Chris Mintz had just started college courses recently and was himself a student at UCC as well as a ten year Army vet. Oh wow, okay, so he's got some skill, right, I mean, skill is the tip of the iceberg. I'm he had been in an adjacent classroom of Snyder Hall when suddenly there was yelling when they heard gunfire. He held the door for his fellow classmates to flee to safety.

24:23 As he and numerous others fled along the open air breezeway toward the library, he and another student collided. He was knocked to the ground in the panic struggle to safety that surrounded him. So the person that's literally holding the door open for everybody gets like knocked over, And I'm sure that person felt terrible. But you know, shit, I knock into inanimate objects and people constantly. And you're not well. You could be in a state of panic constantly. But it's fair to assume that's not unusual either. But it's a different it's a different h it's sort of a more of a generalized anxiety. It was then that a nearby counselor indicated that the gunman's whereabouts weren't precisely known and those in the library were likely unaware.

25:15 Christ didn't hesitate. He quickly volunteered to warn them and do whatever he could to see them to safety. He ran to the library, quickly alerting everyone to get to the other side of campus as quickly as possible, making his way through the book aisles, pulling alarms and pushing through to the emergency exits. At this point, he'd already proven himself a pretty heroic figure to many that day, but he continued back towards Snyder Hall. Wow, remember to breathe. At some point, amidst the chaos unfolding, a FedEx driver captured an image of the shooter. The point of view is only slightly obscured as he peers out of the classroom to see law enforcement approaching the building, and it is, of course, knowing the context, it's one of the most chilling images I think I've ever seen.

26:11 Wow, how did he get that? I mean, he must have been in the parking lot when all of this started happening. Holy shit, that's scary too, Like, yeahn did he see me take this picture? Is he about to come out and shoot me? Well, and you could be somebody who's on campus making a delivery and this could still I mean, the pervasiveness of mass shootings makes it so that you could literally be anyone anywhere, which is great. Yeah, I mean that's the most horrifying part of it is if you're afraid to, you know, get on an airplane. You know, you can take less flights if that, if you so choose. This feels almost unavoidable in a way, which I can't say how much I hate that. Yeah. I don't know if you know this about me, but I don't like mass shootings, you know what, same sise girl. Yeah, it's crazy. I know it's like kind of a hot take. I feel like these days actually, but I'm not a fan, especially ones at schools. I think there's just something about it the way we were raised.

27:28 Yeah, because we were raised having to do the drills and all that, and so it's just like really deeply in like an ingrained fear for us, I think being so young and having to know about that well. And I mean when we were in high school, we did have a bomb threat that you know, was called in for our school and that was really scary. I mean even just the idea that there's been a threat is it's in a way, I mean it's on a totally different scale, of course, but I mean that's very traumatizing as a young person. Yeah, because you have no idea what's happening, Like you're just told to get down and be quiet, right right, basically, and yeah.

28:16 The first hand accounts of multiple survivors, including Chrismins and Tracy Hugh, provide additional details and insight to the remainder of the ordeal. Each of them would recall from their own perspective how when Christmins identified the room the shooter was in, he would open the classroom door and attempt to intervene to their dismay. He was shot as he screamed, and I promise you I am not making this up. I have a six year old son. His birthday is today. That is the saddest thing you've ever said to me.

29:00 At some point, amidst all of the disjointed violence and chaos, the shooter addressed student Matthew Downing, saying today is your lucky day. You are not going to die today. You need to give this envelope to the cops when they get here. It has my manifesto inside of it. Jesus Christ's gonna be fucking cares, before handing him a flash drive with the described contents. I mean, it's good that this person is supposedly hopefully getting out safe. That's not what I meant by that. No, exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's just nobody cares about your fucking manifesto. We never have and we never will.

29:45 I did locate a copy of it, and you'll note that I have not opted to include any passages. It's not waste our fucking time. Yeah, we're going to talk broad strokes, general themes, and that's all all I can really bear, to be honest, Downing's actions afterwards are just some a bit confusing, and I'll be the last person to say that it's not a valid response to be like, why, but why why they do debt? However, I think we all understand that trauma often causes sufferers to behave in what could be perceived as strange or completely illogical, maybe even irrational ways.

30:33 I don't think that's a new concept. When he fled the classroom, doubting let what he'd been given by the shooter loose, he like kind of dropped it. Not long after, another student reportedly found the discarded Manila envelope lying next to his parked car. That student picked it up, later handing it over when asked about it by a detective. I think it's hard to say what you might do in the moment moment until you're inhabiting that moment, right, you don't know what's in there? No, I mean, you know what he's telling you, it is, drop. It and run away as far away from that thing as possible. I feel like that actually is a more appropriate response than a lot of people gave it credit for. There could be ambacs in there, I mean that was kind of in that era. I mean, who fucking knows, we're so fucked up? Well yeah, yeah.

31:25 Oh my god. Maybe it's my stance alone, but I think there's a pretty good chance that after being released by someone you thought was almost certainly going to kill you mirror seconds before that, you might drop anything he'd given you when you were fleeing, just as if it was radioactive, right, especially because he's like erratic and yeah, so you're like, I'm the fuck attic here, just get out. Yeah. It was shortly after the shooter fired on the man who had fought so hard to protect everyone around him that Tracy said she heard what she believed was law enforcement engaging the shooter with gunfire.

32:10 Oh. The corner would later determine his death to be a suicide, just as many of the mass shooters that inspired the young man. Yeah, well does that say I just don't. I just don't. I did, I don't, you know, And I'm okay living in that ignorance to a degree, like. Just kill your fucking self that that's what you're going to do anyway in the end. Yeah. Yeah. Tracy Hugh recalled hearing a fellow survivor state he's down, and her recollection was that this was Matthew Downing, who had been designated the survivor that said this. He said, everybody get up. So I think this this guy kid, I don't know how old he is, but I mean he's fully in fight or flight, quite literally, I think.

33:20 But I don't think he needs any defense for anything that he's done. He's done nothing wrong. I just I just saw, you know, the way that certain articles were worded and things that it was like there was almost an assignment of like some sort of blame, and I was like, I am just not here for that. No. At about that same time, Chris Mintz recalled a friend coming out of the classroom to kneel beside him. It was clear that, as anyone would be, she was incredibly traumatized as she cried and tried to pray with him.

34:05 In that moment, all he could say was, it's my son's birthday. Please call my son's mom and tell her I can't pick him up from school today. I swear to God, if you make me fucking cry, I know. It truly seemed that no one could recall a single instance where this man had paused for even a moment of self pity or concern for his own wellbeing. He was immediately and without exception. I didn't come across any but if there are out there, no, without exception, Harold did a hero on that horrific day. Yes he was an army veteran, but he was acting as a civilian and he was unarmed. In stark con trust. The rambling racist, which is ironic coming from yeah racist manifesto left by the shooter detailed his complaints as a virgin with no friends, also penned by the gunman, his Satanic views, along with the proclamation that success in hell is assured. Hm, what exactly that means? I couldn't tell you what is success in hell assuming that you believe it exists?

35:38 Right, because a real Satanist doesn't really believe that, So what are you actually, so. Are you maybe just a little man boy baby who's confused nobody wants him? Like I want to feel bad obviously. No, No, I don't. I know, I know, but like. You want to feel let me, let me finish. I want to feel bad, like for someone who doesn't have like friends and things. You need people in. Your life to you know, you're human, that's what you need. But kind of maybe look at yourself and be like, well, why don't I have it? Like why doesn't anyone want to hang out with me? Maybe because I'm fucking racist, an asshole.

36:20 The lack of introspection in any capacity that could be construed as healthy is astounding. Yeah, it's like it's everyone else's fault. That's why you want to go and murder everyone. It's everyone else's fault that you're a shithead. Listen, I'm not the problem, literally, everyone else's. Yeah. Douglas County Sheriff's Office investigators wrote more than one hundred reports following the shooting out the college. Records pertaining to the investigation indicate over one hundred and fifty people were interviewed and more than three hundred pieces of evidence were collected by the thirteen law enforcement agencies involved. Wow. They determined that the shooter fired more than forty rounds in the course of the attack, and he had been wearing metal plated body armor geez, which to me says, I don't want to be stopped until I'm ready to end this, yeah, which is just.

37:33 Like looking for a shootout. And then he kills himself, so they all do, and I just, oh my god. Well, you have to think too, even if you're not gonna kill yourself. If you are, you're shooting by cops. Yeah, exactly, you have forced them to do this. Either way, you're gonna get shot by somebody, like I mean, unless you I have so rarely wished for someone to die at the hands of the police. But yeah, you know, if the shoe fits rock that shit, Cinderella. I mean, I remember this, and I remember seeing pictures of a lot of these people.

38:20 I don't remember it. I'm sure when it happened, I saw things. But I I will go ahead and I'm going to air drop you some pictures. What you looking at currently. I'm looking at a very blurry bush. Ah, yes, that's the foot, That's what we're looking it, right, Oh, cute cool bush. Okay, let's move on. Do you see the man in the doorway. I see the man in the doorway. Yeah, it's his face, so thankfully. I mean, yeah, it's it's kind of a side profile. Luckily that the placement of that is really impeccable. But I assume that you can see is I guess that would be considered the foreground. It looks like who I'm assuming is someone in law enforcement running towards the building as the man standing in the doorway is peering outward.

39:19 I was going to say, it looks like there's a guy riding a bike on the edge, but I guess he. Just looks like he's riding a bike, doesn't he Maybe he's run holding probably holding something. Yes, I believe that is based on context from other photos. I believe he is holding a very large rifle. Shit. Yeah, oh yeah, Okay, Wow. This is the FedEx driver's photo. Very close. I mean, it's possible zoomed in, but I mean, even if you're zoomed in, you are. Like if his face was showing, you could see like details of his face. Yeah, you can see he's wearing glasses. You can see his pants, his cargo, fucking pants. Or whatever he's wearing.

40:03 Like they love a cargo pant, don't they. Which is rude because they're very functional, Yeah, and stylish. I found some better pictures of Christmins. Uh, not a ton, I know, I saw more. I probably didn't think to download all of them, which is probably not the end of the world, because how many pictures of a Chris that's not my husband can I possibly Christmas? Oh? Okay, hello, I know listen, I feel like I could picture myself being saved by somebody less attractive. Okay, So we left off at the body armor. They determined between the firearms on his person, as well as those later recovered from the home that he and his mother shared just outside Roseberg in Winchester, that he owned or had access to, over a dozen guns.

41:02 That's too many, feels like kind of a lot. That's about a dozen too many. Might it? I would say arguably for a household of two, it's at least ten too many guns. I'm trying to be reasonable here. I have complicated feelings on guns. Okay, I go back and forth. Leave me alone about it. I think a lot of Americans do, and I feel, well, that's not going away. That's that's not changing here we are. They determined that he'd brought six of those guns onto the campus, and two of them were used during the killings in Snyder Hall. A nine millimeter glock pistol Model nineteen and a forty caliber tourist pistol Model T twenty four.

41:53 All of that is nonsense to me. I have seen a nine millimeter or a glock before, but beyond that. It's it's forty Caliber's pretty big though, right. That's my understanding. Yeah, yeah, I don't know a lot about guns. Sounds big. I believe that's correct in either case. And this is not technically in my notes, and I've already expressed that, you know, he was at one point firing with both guns. That is just uh, it's just a visual that will not leave me anytime soon.

42:36 Erradically like, oh god, it's so scary. Yeah, it's like a video game. Well, I was just gonna say, do you know, I mean, how many movies have you seen about like The Wild West where they're firing with two pistols And I can't, I simply can't. Oregon State Police detectives interviewed Laurel Harper, but the content of their conversations would not be publicly released until September twenty seventeen. Once released, it was revealed that her son had been prescribed medication. Not entirely clear on what medication that was, just based on my research.

43:21 It's possible that that is findable information. I don't know how much that matters at this point, because it was seemingly to no effect or at minimums certainly not the desired effect. Clearly, she described him as being born angry. Oh well, that's not fair. I don't know. I mean, some people are angrier than others at the start. I don't think that. I don't think anyone's born angry. I think when you deal with a child, to me, this reads as almost someone who has like maybe oppositional defiance disorder, where I mean they're just very combative and I'm not trying to diagnose them.

44:10 I certainly don't have enough information or the clinical background to do to do that doctor yet, you know, I mean, yeah, I've I have friends that have been asking me for yours. Are you a doctor yet? Like no, no, No, it's just sad. It kind of just makes me think of like a baby who maybe has like gas or something like what. Do they call call like baby? Like? That doesn't mean they're born angry. They're just you know, they're adjusting to the world. They're in pain, they're little babies. They don't know what's happening. And then you read them Donald Trump, and then what happens. I mean, then they certainly become more dussy. No, I mean I was a callaguy baby, and I think I've probably shared previously stories that you know, my mom said things like, as the first time Catholic mother, I did briefly entertain the thought that you might be possessed God as you would projectile vomit across the room. And I was like, that sounds rough, I know.

45:13 But you know, you know, shoot a school. So your mom did something right. Not not that it's the mom's fault. I don't think it's. Yeah, I think there are things in your upbringing that can contribute. I'm not ready to assign blame to a parent specifically. Yeah, it's really neither here nor there, because here we are and these things have happened. Law enforcement also learned that prior to his last violent act, she was aware that he enjoyed watching horrific videos of killings on the Internet. I feel like that was not to make excuses for either him or for her. I feel like there was an era of the you kind of mid ats where there were a lot of teenage and early twenties boys that were like.

46:08 It's so cool, it's like grand theft, and I love watching people getting beheaded on the Internet, and I don't like any of them. Yeah, someone made me watch the Columbine like security camera Yet that was fun. Thanks for that, so that I don't want to watch it. Yeah, scarred for life, it's fine pretty much. Yeah. No, as someone who's seen even brief excerpts of it, that's Those aren't things that you can erase from your memory. They sure aren't. Nope. Additionally, though, it seems they were able to document eventually that each of the guns they recovered, whether from his person on the campus or from his home, all of the weapons had been purchased legally. Because their home was reportedly so disordered, his mother could not confidently determine what guns he had taken from the home when he carried out the deadly attack.

47:22 Just have guns everywhere? I feel like that's a. I think potentially, if you cannot identify what guns are missing that may or may not point to a problem. I don't think I'm really going out on a limb there. Someone should at least one person should be able to you know, was she single, she was the only one living there with her son. It was okay, so yeah, listen that I wouldn't say this is exactly a point in her favor, but to be fair, investigators in fact even missed a weapon in their initial sweep of the home, as it had reportedly been stored inside a safe beneath the shooter's bed. I feel like we're not checking underneath the bed.

48:08 Maybe it was like so dirty under there that you couldn't see it was hidden by like dust bunnies. I've looked at a lot a lot of photos that were taken during the sweep of their home, and I can at once acknowledge that it's possible that you could miss something. I do think when you are trying to recover evidence from the home of you know, mass shooter, I do. I don't know, you kind of had one job, like move the bed. Yeah, under the bed is like where people hide things, you know, I mean historically, like even money, which I feel like, you know, still all told between their home, his vehicle, and the UCC campus.

49:07 They seized over a dozen guns, a large cash of various ammunition, as well as accessories. It was much later that additional alarming footage and records pertaining to his many gun purchases would emerge, because ultimately he was the owner of most of these guns, overwhelmingly most of these guns. I mean, I would be concerned if the mom was the owner and didn't know correct the guns. Yes, you know what I mean. It's not that they weren't already aware though, of his massive stash of guns. They certainly understood that he owned a lot of guns. But more so, it's it's that it's chilling to witness him handling and purchasing various weapons in the lead up to the shooting. Investigators had also seized what was dubbed a last shopping day list. It had been recovered from his vehicle on nineteen ninety seven Honda CRV. It was also learned that their search of the apartment yielded what was described as mental health paperwork, but had been found inside a filing cabinet. Additionally revealed was his purchase of a nine millimeter glock pistol Model

50:38 G nineteen out of fred Meyer in Roseberg on January fourteenth, twenty fifteen, in addition to a Taurus pistol model twenty four to seven purchased from the Mid Oregon Armory in Roseberg on April second, twenty thirteen. Neither of the firearms owned by his mother were used to carry out the attack on campus, so they recovered over a dozen guns. Reportedly she owned two of those guns WOW that were recovered. Overall. A video surfaced that showed him apparently pawning one weapon and purchasing another on September twenty ninth, twenty fifteen, just days before the shooting. WOW investigators also released the receipt showing his purchase of a thirty eight high point handgun, and chillingly, though it was in his possession at the time of the attack on campus, he did not fire it in the classroom. So he literally went out and bought a weapon two days before the shooting and he didn't even use it.

51:57 I mean, thank god. I mean, there was no shortage of weapons at his disposal, obviously. It's just so I think it just goes back to that erratic behavior pattern. And feels like it wasn't planned. Super well, like, I'm glad. I mean it isn't really planned well where he used all of his guns. I mean, it's so clearly premeditated, but like erratically premeditated, so disordered. Yeah, so I think for now that's probably enough of the unsavory details related to the investigation's findings.

52:39 It's probably fair to say that, although it wasn't intentional, leaving you on a cliffhanger regarding a certain hero in this story might be considered a bit cruel and unusual. I would say she did comment about this. His efforts, no doubt, ensured the safety and survival countless others, But what of his own. Chrismin's like many others, had been rushed to receive emergency care that was desperately needed. He'd been You're not even gonna believe this. He had been shot in the back, abdomen and hands. Oh wow, both of his legs were broken as well. What okay, Now I had to put this in when I just randomly came across this. Okay, both of his legs were broken as well, And despite the speculation of his MMA subreddit buddies, it did not appear these injuries in particular had been sustained, and I quote, from the weight of his gargantuan balls.

53:52 Looks like such a dude b friend thing. It was like in such a like, in such a sweet way. Wasn't like in the gross dude bro way. Despite seemingly insurmountable odds, Chris survived the ordeal. He lived. He lived, He lived to tell his own tale. I remember seeing pictures of this man and it's been obviously years and when I was researching this and I'm like, you fucking lived. You made me think he died. I didn't not make you think he died. I mean, you were shot seven times. I had two broken legs. How did he break his legs gargantuan balls just struggling under the weight of his swimple? I love. There were a lot of really I mean people asked the same thing in that particular Reddit thread, and there was someone that purported to be related to him was like, he's okay.

55:08 I mean, he's super not okay, but like he's gonna be okay wow. In the thread, and people were like, how do you break those lakes? And they were like there were a lot of commenters that were like, that'll happen when your body is pierced by bullets. Like, is that what it was? It's a little bit unclear if it was directly related to like a bullet like a gunshot wound, or if it may have been related to a fall which was precipitated by a separate gunshot wound. Like I kind of pictured him jumping off of something and doing like the superhero like like a backflip or and then like, you're not actually a superhero super regularly, right, Yeah, you're like, oh shit, but he is actually a superhero superhero.

56:05 Like I'm not trying to simp, but I mean spirk. Also, have you guys seen him? He's not about, like, you know, love a guy named Chris though too? Am I right? Find out if he is single? He's got a lumberjack vibe he does? Oh my god, I didn't even I should. Have known, which I've recently become addicted to Instagram. I know, shocking because I'm chronically offline. I found the hashtag lumber snack and I'll never go back. Is it all just pictures of Christman's I mean I should be Chris Miles.

56:51 Yeah, nice hashtag, you guys? Oh boy? Okay, So the boy that lived, I am. I mean, he is fully a miles but I'm like on a roller coaster right now. I'm like, I'm so glad, so I'm setting and so good at the same time. I know, I was like, does this not explain the literal nausea that I've experienced today? I feel like I'd have done that alone. I think, Yeah, I mean, it really is. Shortly after surgery news trickled out he was expected to make a full recovery, though it would certainly be along road, as he would literally have to learn how to walk again.

57:39 Oh wow, is legs. We're broken that badly? You're apparently that's bad. Yeah, yeah, a lot of venturies. I guess they don't know, like the extent you would have to break your legs to have to learn how to walk again, But I imagine it's pretty bad. Great, No, I mean not in everything here sucks except it like he lived. Yeah, huh okay. I don't know what he's made of, but it seems honestly almost reasonable to speculate that it might not be from this planet. It's gargantuine balls. He's just made of gargantuine balls.

58:20 That's it. As someone who cares so little about Actually no. You know what's funny though, is because the thing is is like, vaginas are tougher than balls, right, So he's clearly made of. The toughest, finest pussy alone. God please edit carefully, my friends. Okay. Also, like many of the Reddit commenters in this same thread, I too wish him free drinks forever, seriously, in perpetuity. His family immediately recognized there would be pretty significant medical bills related to his recovery. When they set up a GoFundMe to accept donations. It received over six hundred and fifty thousand dollars by the end of that first day.

59:19 The first day, Wow, as it should. He's a fucking hero. He was released from the hospital on October seventh. By October seventeenth, just ten days later, reporting indicated the total of donations had risen to over eight hundred thousand dollars. In twenty sixteen, Chris was a Citizen Honors awardee, being recognized for a single active heroism by the Congressional Medal of Honor Society. Wow, which I think probably is a pretty big deal. I'm sure it meant a lot to him.

1:00:01 Whatever feelings were so gross. I think it's important that storytelling doesn't just focus on the doom and gloom or the gruesome details. I felt really good to share parts of the story that feel like the silver lining in the face of tragedy. Yeah, because there's not always that there. Yeah, like there's really not. However, I also think that I'd be incredibly remiss if I didn't end on another equally important note. On October first, twenty fifteen, Christopher Sean Harper Mercer, whose name was intentionally redacted from many statements provided by law enforcement about his truly hideous, an unforgivably violent crime, left nine victims dead in his wake. Eight if the victims died at the campus, while the ninth was sadly declared at the Mercy Medical Center following the deadly shooting. He also died that day of a self inflicted gunshot wound. His awful mental health may have played a part in him perpetrating this tragedy. He, however, does not belong listed amongst the victims. It almost seems trite to say that there were also numerous other victims left wounded and otherwise traumatized. The victims who died that day ranged in age from eighteen to sixty seven. Wow,

1:01:38 and included students as well as staff. And I'm really sorry if I don't pronounce. He's right. I don't even know that. I would assume that local news coverage necessarily was able to get in touch with people that were able to verify pronunciation. So I'm just going to do my best and know that we don't take those things slightly. Their names are Laurence Levine, Lucero alcras Quinn, Glenn Cooper, lucas Ibel, Jason Dale Johnson, Trevin Taylor, On Spach, Rebecca Ann Carnes, Kim Saltmarsh Beats, and Serena don Moore, who all died in the shooting among the wounded. And it's possible that there are a great deal more. These are those that were published that I could find. Christopher Mintz, Julie Woodward, Amber McMurtry, Tracy Hugh, Anastagia Boylan Tenaya, Laverne Rand McGowan, and Cheyenne Fitzgerald. Y'all go and make me lose an eyelash. Oh yeah, you just made it worse too, did I?

1:03:06 Yeah? Oh? Is it bad? It's falling? Fuck it up it's flying off enough of the ship. Please edit this out. Well, we'll come back with fresh eyelashes for Darryl after we maybe eat some food. I think it's very poetic that you cried off your lashes during this episode. Oh stop make me look beautiful at all times. That is a direct command. Okay, cover your eyes. Okay, should we go to Tarot, Yeah, yeah, let's go fix your lashes, have a snack, dry our eyes. I feel like I'm a robot because I'm not crying, but I'm like bawling in turn.

1:03:48 But like I mean, I did the dumb thing, which was as I have known for years, is to to like let yourself feel the feelings and then and then this happens. Oh man, Okay, well I'm gonna pee in silently cry in the bathroom by myself. Okay, I'll see you at Tero. Holy Rock. It's aggressive, she says. Oh, it's it of swords and reverse.

1:04:29 Oh the cat die. It a little critter underneath it, hiding in the shadow. Oh, it's like hiding in the shadows like I'm sure a lot of people were trying to fucking hide from this hawk in the sky. That's kind of eerie imagery. I'm just gonna say that dry in terms of like I'm I try. I was just going to say, very evocative imagery. Yeah. It is interesting though, because like, okay, first let me get this out of my brain before I forget. So cactus is like pokey crappy like the story Folks and jasses.

1:05:10 But then there's like a flower at the top of this cactus. So that's like the silver lining you were talking about, like the pretty I know some of the good things that were in the story. Yeah, which, honestly, the good things are just that the guy who was shot seven times lived, right, But that's like a really good I mean great, but also like what it took to get us to a good thing. Yeah, and the dog lives and satisfy is to like have that dog live, and it's like sole purpose for living is now gone. I know what that broke my heart?

1:05:52 Oh it reminds me of like the dogs who like lay on their owner's grave. Yes, yes, yes, okay, So terro terro is I think traditionally supposed to cheer us up. So here we go, okay, aid of sorts. Our keywords are entrapment, self, undoing, fear, helplessness, bondage, denial, and deception, all of it. Yeah. That feels about the bondage. I mean I think you, I think you have to think of it in the context of being just bound to this.

1:06:40 Situation or like the entrapment kind of or like the self entrapment. Yeah. In many decks, the aid of swords shows a person bound and blindfolded, ringed by a prison of sorts. Wow, you should have gone to prison well, because swords represent thoughts and beliefs. Wow, this card says you've created your own prison with your ideas and only you can free yourself. What was I saying earlier about look at yourself and why you don't have any friends?

1:07:20 And maybe I mean in the context of this particular person and this case, the part that really kind of grabs me is only you can free yourself. Oh and he shot himself too, Yeah yeah, but he also could have freed himself away before that. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. Famously, at least famously in my household, there's a saying life's all about choices. That was a choice, A couple of them, A few, I would say, a series of choices feels accurate. To break through the barrier you've built, you must change the way you see and do things. Sometimes this means rejecting social norms or going against the status quo. You also need to get focused and get moving. Perhaps you have your head in the clouds, said was somewhere. The reverse eight warns you to get your affairs in order or the situation could worsen, which I feel like, in the most opposite of ways, applies to both the perpetrator and then also at the same time, I feel like it applies to the hero of the day. Yeah, because it's

1:08:53 sort of like he sprang into action because it's like, I don't want this to go worse. Oh yeah, really approaching this like I mean like a one man in at least that initial response, like a one man military response. And obviously we have, you know, we've expressed complicated feelings about guns, the military, law enforcement, a whole host of things. Really, but I mean, there's no two ways about it. This is someone who did an incredibly heroic thing. Okay, I'm going to get to the rest here. In a reading about money, this card says you may not be dealing forthrightly with a financial problem or probably any problem forever and ever. Amen. If you've been putting off paying your taxes, for example, Okay, well now I feel personally targeted.

1:09:55 Okay, come on, I get this. Every tax season we pull this fucking card. We're busy, just did those last year? Where to god we did those like a month ago? Or settling a legal matter, take care of it promptly to avoid more trouble. Sometimes this eight indicates bad advice or deception four chan, anyone I was going. To say, the bad advice is probably all the forums. Yes, yeah. If the reading is about your job, the reverse eight tells you to stop playing the victim. You may feel persecuted, trapped, or limited in your work, but you must take responsibility for where you're at and do something about it. No one was him six with me. I mean, that's not technically his desired profession, as I understand it, But I do think sometimes, you know, with the bullets, we can kind of take the overarching lessons and apply them where they feel applicable.

1:11:00 Wait read it again? Am I dumb? Did I like not even hear you? Right? No? No, no, no, you heard it. You just interpreted. You just interpreted, You applied it where it was needed. Okay, let me hear it again, just in case. If the reading is about your job, the reverse eight tells you to stop playing the victim. Stop playing the victim. Okay, yeah, yeah, so I mean it's all just about in general. Yes, in a reading about love, you may feel tied to a person, perhaps because you're afraid to be alone or unwilling to support yourself. I feel like his mom. I mean, not love obviously in a well we don't know, but I mean hopefully not a romantic way, but in a romantic sense per se, but family love.

1:11:46 Take this and apply it to whoever in the story. You feel like this card can mean you're not facing up to what's really going on personally. I think this applies to more than one person. If you've been listening to someone else's advice, the time has come to listen to your inner guidance, which I feel like applies to very few people in this story. Okay, extra excerpt, and I will say this is Franklin D. Roosevelt from his first inaugural address. Friend of the Pod, friend of the pot, former friend of the Pod. Well, I don't know. I mean, we have complicated.

1:12:28 Feelings about all the presidents. Okay, it's just it is what it is. Honestly, I think we need to just take a page out of the Tennis book and just start calling them listeners of the pod. Okay, yeah, famously listener of the pod. The only thing we have to fear is fear. It's so damn it's kind of like true. And you even in the sense that obviously, like these people were scared, right, but they were scared of a like scared man, you know, like he was like fear. Yes, racist, Like that's what I think. All those people are just a very small person, yeah, a very small person. But I also my initial interpretation of this immediately upon reading this, I just got I got Chris, I think so too. Yeah, for sure, He's like, the only thing that I'm afraid of is being so afraid that I will not act. And I mean, this is an incredible situation. This is I mean, I mean truly a situation that most people hopefully are never put in.

1:13:39 That's the hope, that's the hope that you should go your entire life and never be faced with a situation like this. We live in one of the arguably wealthiest countries in the world, and there is there's no reason that anyone in the world, and wealth should have nothing to do with that. I feel sort of guilty for conflating that, like, oh, we're one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Why is this happening here? Because ultimately that has it should have no impact. That these are just situations that in modern civilized society anywhere on the face of God's green Earth at this point, that that people should have this just should not this should not be so common, right, Well.

1:14:30 I feel like the thing is is that we don't live in a fucking civilized society, right is it civilized? Look at it? Like, are we? I mean, the rest of the world is living in a civilized society to some degree. I don't know if anybody is honestly like yeah, I mean, God, I feel like you really have to wonder. It's all just a bunch of animals living on animal instinct at this point. And I mean I feel like that maybe has never changed. And maybe that's the part where we're sort of maybe we're fooling ourselves, but we do. Okay, I take that back, because obviously some of us are civilized, and some of us save other people's lives in you know, the face of danger and risk our own right. Those those are the civilized people fighting against the uncivilized I mean, people who want to shoot everybody.

1:15:22 What the fuck? It's a tough one to really feel like you have the right thing to say. I don't. I mean to be fair. I don't know that we've ever made such a proclamation. Is we have all the you know, the right things to say, We have all the best words. We famously have all the wrong words and. Nothing to say. Yeah. As podcasters, we famously have a lot of very nonverbal interactions. Wow, should we go to the little book? It's a piut brown squirrel? Piu pi u t e. Yeah, hyut piut. That would be my interpretation as a okay, piute brown squirrel. Y'all imprisonless? Wow, imprisonless, prisonless.

1:16:17 It's this imprisonment, powerlessness, trapped, self imposed restrictions and limitations, negative thoughts, so pretty much the same. Yeah. It had started as a simple foraging trip. The sun was high and the ground was hot. The dry air felt good on the squirrel's fur as she surfaced from the tunnel, but she was in quite a predicament. Careless, a moment too long, gnawing on a meaty route had exposed her to the hawk. Oh it is a hawk. I knew it. M Oh, this is ooh. I'm like have chills all over my body. Okay, great, because I knew, just like looking at the card what was happening. She'd made a mad dash for the nearest altar. Practically and paling herself on the cactus's needles, she dove into its dubious protection. Pinned down, the raptor circled, knowing her exact position. If she bolted, it would reach her before she could disappear. Into the nearest tunnel, she searched for escape routes in the open sand surrounding her.

1:17:25 Lack of thought had trapped her here. Maybe she could think her way out. Let me think of Tracy. Wow, okay, you did say raptor. Correct. Yeah, they're talking about the hawk. Uh huh is that something in the. I just feel like the significance of like think about like military because this is X. I mean wow, if you can call it that ex military as the perpetrator and also a true veteran that you know again, I'm I mean, god, I don't want to sound like I'm just fawning over but fonn this is like the person that's proved to be the hero quite literally and actually a veteran, someone who has you know, served terms like raptor hawk. These are like they're incorporated into the nomenclature of the United States military, Like.

1:18:29 I thought you were thinking of like a raptor as like a literal dynostoric kind of. I mean, we. Don't know, but like in the movies, they're kind of like erratic and like. Fast, and I mean that's where my head first went because I kind of listen, even though I am a super adorable and obviously still a relatable young woman of a mere twenty nine, I do remember Jurassic Park, and that is of course first and foremost, like. The eyes, like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I don't think I've showed you a picture of the perpetrator, have I? I sent you some other photos related to this. You showed me the one where his face wasn't showing. Yeah, okay, so that's I mean, technically you have seen a picture of him.

1:19:21 But okay, gosh, this is just so crazy though, Like someone is literally hiding like in the shadows, being hunted and afraid to run out because they'll be like exposed. It's just crazy. I mean so like it works both literally and metaphorically. I'm going to air drop you. This was screenshotted from last from the past. His MySpace moist space sounded like you're about to say moist space, moist moisty. O, my space is so moist.

1:20:04 Oh okay, I know this now seeing the seeing his photo, I remember this. Yeah, I don't know why, like just that one in the red shirt, the photo in the red shirt, Like I remember. That phot No, I mean that was used in a lot of the coverage about about this case. He was also very big supporter of the IRA, which. I see that what is that Irish Republican Army. Yeah, it's fun. That is a whole less can of worms to uh. I'd prefer not to comment on the IRA as a significantly Irish person of listen that it may not be popular amongst some Irish folks, but I think it's hard to argue that the IRA is not a terrorist organization.

1:21:06 Huh. They're responsible for a lot of the car bombings during the troubles. I mean, ultimately, as far as I know, all of all of the bombings in in Ireland during that period. Is that where the Irish car bomb comes from? Yes, let's fucked up. Yes, yes see I didn't know that, Okay. I just thought it was a fun drink. Yeah, no it is. It's a very it's a very fun drink. I just did a shit ton of them and got really sedate on Saan Potric's day. Yeah, you know most people do. Yeah, when in Dublin. We should rename it, rename it something better, petition to rename the Irish carbomb.

1:21:48 Honestly, I will say the Irish car bomb as a cocktail is to the human body what an actual Irish car bomb is to the human body. We have a TikTok of us doing them. I think we should probably include it, honestly. Okay, we did it really wrong, Like it was like we knew we were doing it wrong. So but it was just funny. I mean, they weren't. They weren't. I can't remember what we did wrong, but they weren't like. Oh we put they were the wrong out of order or no. But it was like the wrong kind of glass.

1:22:29 And I think we did a whole beer instead of you're supposed to do like half a beer. Most people don't do a half or like people. I think it's like a third of a beer. Yeah, people don't do that. We poured whole beers, but we were being funny. Yeah, have a creepiest day. See you next Tuesday. I can't say anything else because we said a lot of things off Mike. That guns are bad. Okay, it's been quite the day. Okay, he didn't really die, right, continuing, Okay, were you faking out? I wouldn't say it was faking.

1:23:13 I feel like if you bought the performance, Like, wasn't it real to you? It was alive, bitch, Cutie Petuti is alive, bitch, bitch. Okay, but I need, I need. I didn't say he was alive. I didn't say he was alive. God damn it. Maybe he just survived long enough so that he didn't die onn Sin's birthday. I hate all of you right now. I hate you. I hear you. You hate every fiber of my being. And that's fair, that's honestly, I'll say that's fair. Okay. I was going to marry him, Okay, I mean, if I wasn't already married to it Chris, that would be you know okay, okay, real okay. Back to the episode, Real talk though,