Nightmare After Christmas - The Oldest Unsolved Kidnapping in Tacoma History

0:00 From that point on, a nightmarish scenario unfolded as the intruder strode into the home, trailing the frightened little Charles Mattson. Once he had made his entrance into the living room, he shouted, "Don't you kids try anything? Because I have a bulletproof vest on." As he demanded money, which is like, "Okay, but they don't have guns." This is their packin'. Yeah. Hi, Cassie. Hi, Caitlyn.

0:42 Hi, creepy people. Hello! But if you're new to our creepy corner of the world, this is PNW, Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, spooky things, paranormal, weird stuff, witchy stuff, kind of whatever really floats our boat in the moment. But from the Pacific Northwest, that's kind of the caveat, I guess. It's the vibe. I don't know. Yeah, that's the vibe. We're all about the vibes today. Do you know what else floats our boat and vibes are other parts? Oh boy.

1:23 I didn't know where I was going with that. But I knew that I was going to say we do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little deeper insight into our topic. That's true. It is a long one. And it's pretty sad. So long. That's your vibe. I know. I'm really, I've caught a vibe recently. Only my bridal era is over. I'm just really back in like the sad. Sad. I'm in my feelings and they are sad. Great. Yeah.

2:04 So that's something to like forward do. We can drink about it. Yeah, we're going to drink about it. Okay. Announcements? PNW. Fest? Yeah. True crime fest northwest. Thank you. I like that it rhymes. That helps me remember it. So that's Friday, August 30th, Saturday, the 31st and Sunday, September. So 3 whole days? You have to be there for three whole days. Yeah. It's actually kind of half days on Friday and Sunday, but yeah. Woo, half day. It's like school. Yeah. Yeah.

2:44 We're going to half day. Much funner than school. I'm not complaining about being there. Because we haven't done a lot of festival. We came off a year of like full of festivals and then this year. Yeah. We hit like everything. And then this year, I mean, I guess we kind of had like this other festival that we were sort of supposed to go to. I was just comparing my wedding to a festival. Oh, okay. I was like, what? Did we go to one and I can't remember what it was. No, it just, no, if anything like planning for the wedding and everything was like, I feel like it was the same level of work as when we did like, I don't know, I think we did like four or five festivals the year before.

3:34 It was the event of the year. Yeah. Woo. It was. It was so fun. We'll talk about it later. Yeah. We'll talk about it eventually. I'm like, I'm ready to be done with you. You're over. I'm so over you. Now I wish I could go back and spend a little more time there, but it goes by quick. Everyone says it and I'm like, okay, we go to, but it does. Yeah. But come see us at True Crime Fest northwest. It's going to be here in Portland. There's lots of great stuff going on at it. There's a ton of different speakers. Yeah, I'm excited and it looks like they're planning to do a drag bingo on Sunday.

4:19 Oh, what? So drag bingo. What is that? I don't know, man, but I'm in you. Like drag queen bingo? Yeah, I think so. No shit. Yeah. Because I got really excited when you said drag and I was like, that can't be what she means. And I was like, no, but like, is it though? Oh, that's what she means. So excited. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we have a discount code still. We do. In the notes, I think. Yeah, we'll put it in the notes. I think it's HAUNTS10. Don't quote me on that. It'll be in the notes. Find it in the notes. Show notes. Go to the notes. Episode description. Yeah. Then there's actually a self-defense class.

5:01 It looks like on the Friday night too. I'm going to do that so bad. All programming is free. So for that. So that's a really awesome opportunity. I really want to take, I think I've said it before. I want to take self-defense like regularly because you have to keep up on it. Yeah, I heard for sure. You like forget what to do. Yeah. Well, I think now that I'm no longer planning the festival of the year, AKA my wedding, I think I probably, I could totally take up Krav Maga, right? Like what else am I doing besides working full time this podcast, which is another full time job in like feeding and clothing and bathing myself. Right.

5:42 I just feel like it's time. Yeah. Enough excuses. I know. It'll turn do it. Yeah, just work. Yeah. You just got to work. Now, nobody wants to work anymore. Any who's all, I think that's all we really have for announcements. I just want to make sure we said something about that. It's at the time of recording this, just a couple of weeks around the corner. So it's real. It's coming. It's going to happen. It's going to come and go so fast. And before you know it, we'll be like, where did it go? Exactly. All right. Well, I think we've drugged this out pretty much as long as we can. Yeah.

6:22 We should probably get into it. Okay. All right. The Mattson Family Home in the Point Defines Park District of Tacoma was far from Meager at a sprawling 6,400 square feet. It's a pretty big house. That is a huge house. It's a real big house. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to clean that house. No. No. It was located at 4605 North Verde Street having been built in the mid 1920s in what I must assume was a pretty well-to-do neighborhood. I actually don't need to assume if you live in a community where they are building.

7:07 That's like a manor. Yeah. That's huge. It's not the only one. Yeah. From the back of the home, their properties, Lawn, led to what sounds like almost like a park or like a community space that only Leslie Knope, could dare to dream up. Oh, sounds pretty cool. I don't get the reference. Oh my God. I mean, I know it's parks and rec. Yeah. Because Leslie Knope, is like the just most effervescent public servant and she works in the parks department, but she goes on to run for office and she's just all about doing all the things for Pawnee.

7:51 Oh, it's adorable. So sweet. It's adorable. She also has a massive crush on Joe Biden. It's real weird. It's real weird. I don't know. I mean, did it, did it not? He didn't age- Sorry, let's keep going. Moving a lot. Moving a lot. Moving a lot. And I know we're not supposed to say spirit animal anymore, but if yours is a fictional white lady, is that still allowed? Just asking for a friend. I don't know. Someone tell us if you don't like it. Yeah. I feel it. I mean, it's probably fine. And I feel like it's fine. I think the majority of our audience would be like, why aren't you supposed to say that?

8:33 I think our audience knows exactly why you're not supposed to say spirit animal. Okay, maybe half. Yeah. If our audience wouldn't have to. It's half sees maybe. Source material described it as a path led down to a steep 300 foot terrace embankment to a picnic ground and swimming pool railroad tracks, rust in way, and then the waterfront crowded with docks and boat houses. So, pretty fancy. I'm concerned about the railroad tracks being right in the middle of a park. I don't know if it's in the middle of the park. I'm not totally clear on that piece of the layout, but I mean, they're at the center of all the industry and all the happenings and the goings-ons and such.

9:22 Yeah. The patriarch of the family was a well-known man in the local area as a respected physician. Daddy's a doctor. Dr. Daddy. Dr. Daddy. Oh. [laughs] Though he graduated from medical school at the University of Pennsylvania, he had played football at the University of Washington for three years in the early 1900s. And there are picks. So we know that did happen. Ooh. Like old school football picks. Yeah. Cute. Old-timey football uniforms with leather helmets. So they have leather helmets? I don't think at least not in the pictures, but they look like they're wearing the woleist, scratchiest clothing.

10:12 And I'm like, I wouldn't wear that even if I wasn't sportsing. But if you have long johns on under. Oh, God. I can't. I can't. This dude is checking boxes like he was preparing for his old-timey Tinder profile though. Ooh. Yeah. He's kind of a catch. Did you make one for him? Because I want to see it. I did. Can we do that? I think we should mock one up. I think that'd be great. A tailored if you also have free time. Yeah. I think that'd be so funny. Daddy, doctor. Doctor, daddy. His Tinder profile. Okay. Uh, buh buh buh.

10:52 Are there pictures of him holding a fish? Oh, my God. I don't think so. I know. I know. I mean, honestly, how will he ever find love on Tinder without? No one's going to swipe whatever way you swipe. Yeah, which, you know, the swiping. I literally don't know which way it is. I don't know. I don't know. That's okay. That's fine. I probably will never need to know. Yeah. The internet is a dangerous place. Their live Christmas tree and outdoor light display was reported to have been recognized by the Tacoma Garden Club.

11:32 But I'd wager. It would take some serious digging to find any reporting on that topic because I couldn't find it. Oh, so they weren't on the, like, PNW lights, Christmas lights. I know. Apple. No. Dang it. Yeah. No, they weren't still doing their whole thing with the Christmas tree in the light show when that was established in the mid 2000s, I believe. But obviously, I haven't made it a habit to simply bring you all the wandering diatribe's about idyllic families. Come.

12:12 Univis. Clearly something not too idyllic is probably about to happen. Come. You knew this. And if that's what you were thinking, you'd be right. Because you knew this. I don't want to be right. No. What you couldn't have known is that it would happen just days after Christmas. Oh, you're a bitch. I know. You didn't save this one for Christmas. I was simply the worst. I mean, it's crazy how many crimes are committed right around Christmas. So. Yeah. No, I was just like, I think I got some other stuff.

12:55 I just, I felt like I needed to talk about this case. And I think we'll get to why I felt like I identified with this so readily. It's funny that you should mention that though, because I said in my notes, next sentence, I might have saved this for that time of year had I come across it at a different time. But alas, here we are. As we record this at least, it's Christmas in July. It is no longer July. We intended to record this in July. Missed it. Overshot it by a few days. It's fine. Christmas in August. Yeah. Cheesy. Sure. Maybe. But surely by now, we all know that finding some way to present a bit of levity, if not hope, in these cases is what I strive for.

13:42 You're welcome. Thank you. Please, sir. I want some more. And so it was that on Sunday, December 27, 1936, at roughly 8.45 pm, that the youngest of the three Mattson children, Charles, was enjoying popcorn and root beer in his living room with his brother, William Jr. Billy, age 16, his sister, Muriel, age 14, and her friend from Seattle, Virginia Chatsfield, age 15.

14:22 Oh, big city. I know. Virginia Chatsfield. Chatsfield. Chatsfield. I'm sorry, Chatsfield. That's a name. Yeah. I can't think of what I want to put the name. Like a news reporter. Yeah. Yeah. Chatsfield. She could be a podcaster. She really could be. Oh, wait. It's 1936. Oh, well. As they did so, a masked man armed with a handgun entered their living room. I guess he decided the holidays were officially over.

15:02 After thoroughly terrorizing the children, that same man would simply pick Charles up and vanish into the night. What? But not before leaving a ransom note stating his $28,000 demand. She's an odd number, but whatever. Right. You can like round up to 30 or 25. Yeah. I don't like it. No. It's comfortable with, but that's fine. It's, you know, it's his demand. Maybe 20 eighths is lucky number. I, you know, maybe who knows? I don't think it is. It's lucky number. But the virus of nothing more than his youngest child, safe return, Dr. William W. Mattson, would make every attempt to pay that ransom, but to no avail.

15:54 I'll save you the suspense from this moment forward. This is the oldest unsolved kidnapping case in Tacoma's history. Holy shit, it's unsolved. Yep. Yikes. On the surface, surely this seems like another case of a kid from a wealthy family gone missing and you're not wrong. It takes me back to the Weyerhaeuser case episodes, though there's a notable difference. While I didn't examine side by side the account statements of the two households, the Mattson were surely no match compared to the monetary wealth of the Weyerhaeuser's.

16:38 The Weyerhaeusers were like titans of industry. This is a wealthy family, but we're talking about, you know, a single, generation of wealth, essentially. I think it should go without saying, but I'll say it out loud. Every missing person, particularly a child, deserves to be found, regardless of their race, religion, and of course, societal status or their financial means. In some instances, even if you did have bottomless pockets, even that can't bring a loved one back, but it sure doesn't hurt.

17:27 The night the Charles was kidnapped or kidnaped, as was often reported in the papers at this time. Oh, miss like they misspell it. They misspell it. It's kidnapped. Wow. How did I do? I hate hers. Who is the editor? Honestly, I think that was just the comments felling back that I think we looked at this when we did cover the Weyerhaeuser case because it came up and it was whole board. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Very strange. I don't know. I don't know. I just fell back then. Yeah, it's just old timey. Just old timey stuff. I don't know, like, go to a dictionary to check the spelling too. Right? Like, you couldn't just Google it or like, it's true. Obviously, there was an auto correct.

18:07 They did not have a Google machine. No. Honestly, one of these days, I'm going to spiral down that etymological rabbit hole, with eye digress. You said a big word. Yep. It's a word word. Word of the day. Sure. That night, the Mattson children had been alone in the family home. Dr. Mattson and his wife, Hazel, had been attending a social function. While they waited, the children could hear someone knocking quite insistently on the French doors at the back of their home that led out to their terrace. So this person came in, like, into their backyard and came to the rear entrance of the home.

18:54 It was Charles that volunteered to investigate further. When he returned at a running pace, he told the others that he had spotted a man wearing a mask. What was he doing out in their courtyard at this hour, you ask? Well, according to the eyewitness accounts that night, he'd been pounding on their door, which is already just a bit too much. But he'd also demanded entry to the home. That's going to be a no for me, dog. Right? That's what Charles said. Good. Yeah, he was like, oh, thanks, though. Lastly, he'd been described as muttering incoherently, which is literally never how I want to describe anyone within close proximity to my home.

19:44 Even if Charles had been born at night, it wasn't last night. So clearly, he refused to allow the man entry. But it turned out that he didn't exactly need permission, as he broke the glass panes of the door with his gun, simply reaching inside to turn the latch himself. And he'd begs the question, like, if that was such an easy option, why are you bothering, giving the inhabitants of the home a heads up by knocking before making entry? Right. Like, well, you said he, like, terrorized them for a while, so maybe that was just part of his. Well, that's once he was inside the home. Yeah, but maybe that was like part of it.

20:25 I can't just wanted to like scare them. I don't know. Honestly, I was reading this going like, does anybody else think this sounds like kind of some Florida man shit? Like, what's happening? I wish, because that would mean he'd probably get caught. Yeah. From that point on, a nightmarish scenario unfolded as the intruder strode into the home, trailing the frightened little Charles Mattson. Once he had made his entrance into the living room, he shouted, "Don't you kids try anything? Because I have a bulletproof vest on as he demanded money." Which is like, okay, but they don't have guns.

21:06 Because they're packin'. Yeah. The aggressive intruder searched Billy's pockets. That's the older brother. Good luck, bro. He's a 1930s teenager. If you expected him to have more than a nickel, then I guess you're even dumber than I assume you look. Which isn't saying much. I assume you look very stupid. What kind of mask was he wearing, do you know? I'm not sure. I'm assuming it was some sort of like, probably similar to what you are picturing. I was picturing a Richard Nixon mask. So, perhaps not that then. I don't know why. Like a ski mask or like a, do they have those back then?

21:51 Yeah. I mean, they might have been made of a different material, but yeah, I mean, they certainly had things like that back then. Or they could fashion them. Yeah. I mean, it was very common for them to just take some other, you know, garment or remnant of fabric into my face. It's got some holes in it. Like your ghost for Halloween. Oh, don't ruin that. I know. I'm sorry. The intruder demanded money and then searched Billy's pockets, finding nothing because he's a literal child. He muttered, "A home such as this should be good for some money."

22:34 "Woke up." And Billy replied that they did not keep money in the house. It was then that the intruder snatched little Charlie, stating, "I want you to come with me. You're your father's favorite, so you're worth more money." How does he know that? Interesting question. Not a lot of interesting answers in that there are no answers to that question. Making shit up. I mean, maybe. I mean, maybe he'd been casing the house family, whatever. Who knows? We see the youngest. Charlie was the youngest.

23:14 Some people like the youngest the best. Yeah, the youngest is usually the favorite. I mean, I find them to be the most annoying, but I might be biased. I agree. The oldest. Any who? We're both older sisters of a younger brother. I mean, they get less annoying as they get older. They do. That is true. That is true. For my brother, anyway. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. But I just feel like that's such a gross thing to say, period. Like, your, his favorite, your worth more money, but also dude, like, his siblings are standing right there. Yeah. Like awkward.

23:56 But then, I guess that was the least of their problems at this point. Right. Like, I'm going to look past that. Trying to see the big picture about like my younger brother is literally being kidnapped before my eyes. I cannot imagine. Yeah. No, thank you. He told the children not to call the police or he'd come back and shoot them. Seems like pretty standard fare for a bad guy. And this dude was obviously a bad guy. I mean, yeah, the man, he, yeah, nice guy. It was the whole thing. Yeah. A lot of kids equals bad guy.

24:38 Yeah. Voted YTA, 10 out of 10 times by the Reddit community, for sure. I know what that means. Yeah. I get the reference. Yeah. I've been listening to a lot of AITA stories recently and they've tried it our brain space. Only because Caitlyn has talked about it. I haven't like gone looking. Should we tell like my mom what it means? I don't think she knows. Oh, yeah. What's it mean? So she knows exactly what it means, but she's like, you know, I want to do you know. - Yeah. - Yes, yeah. - You, you, you challenge. - YTA is you're the asshole.

25:20 There's, I think, let's see, I'm thinking of a couple of other ones that I've heard thrown around. E-S-H, everyone sucks here. - Oh, I've never heard that one. - So I've heard that one? - Yeah, it's a fun one. And then NTA is not the asshole. Those are kind of the main ones. Those are the ones you need. - You need to know. - Like, those are your kind of core. - Yeah. - There you go, Mom. - Yeah. - Welcome. - Actually, Reddit would probably be like split in a surprising turn, because Reddit is just wild. But whatever. - I never, it's, it's, I don't like it. - People have so many opinions. - They do. - Yeah.

26:01 - I only like to go find a spooky thing and then like read the comments. - Yeah, she's like, "Aaaah!" - I'm gonna hurry out. - It's very specific what I look for on Reddit. (laughing) As the man fled, the children watched him flee across the backyard and down the steep embankment toward commencement bay. No small feat with a reportedly 70 pound child. A terrified kid in tow. - I was gonna say how, like, how is he holding this kid? - I don't like throw him over his shoulder. - Oh, God. - Like, Jesus. First of all, I'm not running until a cardiologist or a gangster is holding a gun to my head.

26:42 (laughing) And even then, it's really gonna depend on how I feel. Also, not carrying a small, potentially screaming human while I do so. The running is hard enough. - I wonder if he said something though about like, "Hey, don't struggle," 'cause. - How? - Yeah. - Yeah. - If he told me not to like call a cop, or he'd shoot them, I wonder what he said to the kid. - Yeah, the littlest. - Either way though. Like, of course, he's gonna be hysterically crying. I don't know, I'm just saying, that's a special kind of hell to each their own, I suppose. He's got his eyes on the prize, $28,000.

27:25 I'm thinking about now and I'm like, okay. Obviously inflation, but that wouldn't even pay off my student loan. So like, am I really going down this road? - No, well, he probably didn't have student loans. Doesn't seem like the student type. - Yeah. - That's fair. William phoned the police. At first, it was unclear whether that was junior or senior, but additional research revealed that it was reportedly billy, so the brother that made the call. - So he didn't listen, good. - Yeah. - No, he was like, I do not follow instructions. - Good. - Yeah, I told him. - Age boy for once.

28:06 - Yeah, I know, right? (laughing) - Teenage rebellion for the win. - Yeah. - For the W-1. - Based on the various descriptions gathered from the three young traumatized witnesses, the following picture emerged of the intruder. He was a man clad in a blue zipper jacket and a light colored checkered cap. Some sources said white while another said tan. - With hairy hands. - hairy hands? - Yeah. - They had zippers back then? - Yeah. Cassie has really, like, her mind is fully blown. (laughing) - That is not where I saw it.

28:47 - She was going through my head at one time. (laughing) - I just didn't think that would be the thing that you would focus on. You're like zippers and hairy hands. - I was stuck on the zippers and then you had said hairy hands and that through me, but I was like still on the zippers. Did you, like, I feel like maybe I put those two, like, descriptors too close together 'cause I feel like as I'm writing it and then as I'm reading it again, I'm just picturing his hairy hand, getting like caught in the zipper. Is that just me? - Ah, am I the weirdo? - Probably. - We should start a new, like, am I the asshole, but am I the weirdo? - Am I the weirdo? - Is that a reddit?

29:28 - Yeah, should we start it? - I don't think so. Am I the weirdo? - I like it. - I like it. - I like it. - It's hours now. - It's probably already. - I'm writing this down. - I feel like someone has come up with it. - I don't think so. I don't think anybody's ever, I've never seen that. I don't know. - Then I will check in it with jeez. - Yeah, you are. - Okay, but first they had zippers back then. - Yeah. - 1936. - Why do I feel like we've glued the-- - 14 before, like, when zippers has-- - Do I need to look it up? - Yeah, just look it up, sorry. - I just find, my brain won't go anywhere else. - Until I know.

30:08 - No, it's fine. We're only three pages in to nine. (laughing) It's fine. The zipper was invented technically in 1917, but it wasn't until 1923 that the name was first used. An American company called BF Goodrich Company used Sundback's design on boots and coined the term zipper. - Okay. - Uh-oh. Goodrich came up with a name based on the noise a zipper makes when you use it. - It's the onomatopoeia. - onomatopoeia, yeah. - Okay.

30:49 This is so weird to me. I feel like this is me and other things that's gonna throw you off. Maybe not, maybe I'm the weirdo. Am I the weirdo? The white rag he had dawned over his face, slipped down at some point during their encounter, revealing a full beard, high cheekbones, a dimpled chin and a dark complexion. Sworthy was the word used repeatedly in FBI statements and the man spoke with an accent later described as Southern European. So I'm guessing these kids were far more polite than many others of their time. That or they simply couldn't quite place the man is like, clearly he was Italian, clearly Spanish or Greek, neatly they weren't sure what his ethnicity was.

31:39 - I'm not kind of hard sometimes. - It is and I feel like it's incredibly, if they didn't actually specifically identify an ethnicity, I feel like that was like maybe a very, well certainly a very good thing because obviously this is a point in history when it's like, oh we hate the eye, you know what I mean? Like anybody that they identify as being a threat then that whole community comes under fire. So I'm thinking like, I don't know that these kids were aware of that or like maybe it was just out of politeness that they like they don't know so they're not, you know, I have no idea, but I don't know, maybe they just didn't want to send the public at large after an entire unsuspecting ethnic community which is maybe something that people could learn from still today.

32:34 - Yeah. - Perhaps but probably won't sometimes in some situations which will remain nameless. - Okay. - I'm thrown off by how they knew he had a dimpled chin if he had a whole beard. - Oh, 'cause I think even with like facial, like if he had a stubble, like if he had like the butt chin, you know, I was thinking like a full beard, he can't say that. - Well maybe he does, but maybe it was just stubble. I don't know, like that's still a full beard 'cause beard if like describes like where? - Full beard. - Yeah, no, I think they were just describing the location of the facial. - It wasn't like a goat.

33:14 - Yeah. - That's a goat's ear for short. (laughing) - You shouldn't, no, you need to say goat's ear because goat means something else. - No, yes. - Not if you're clearly referencing beards. - I'm just saying people get confused and some things mean other things and maybe, you know. - Everyone knows what I mean. - Just saying that when we're talking about the greatest one of all time. - Yeah, no, that's not what I'm talking about 'cause he's clearly not. - No. - If he can't even grow a beard, it covers dimpled chin. (laughing) - Oh man. Okay, also like, I know I'm recently married, but does this dude sound vaguely hot?

33:54 Kind of a little. I'm gonna be honest, I think it's fine. Okay, we can be honest, right? 'Cause this guy, hot or not, at the time, is super dead by now, but I'm gonna be honest. It kind of sounds like the FBI had a crush on them too. Which is like, ew, FBI, be better. I'm a simple, I'm a person, okay. You're an entire organization. Do better. - Yeah. - Do better. We all know the beard, the weakness for beards, but. - Yeah, I don't really, that's not really a thing for me. - It was more that swarthy. - I don't know, something about that. Like if you say swarthy, I'm like, do you mean sexy?

34:35 I wonder if it maybe had more of a negative connotation about that. - I think it did. - Yeah, I think it did. 'Cause now we've just turned everything bad boy to sexy. - Yeah, I'm like, oh my god, it's so hot. - Yeah. (laughing) - We've got something we're really excited to share with you guys. Let's hear a few words from our new pod besties. - Do you love true crime and travel? Having traveled the world so low the last couple of years and being obsessed with true crime? I found myself researching others who took the same vacations, but never made it home. The Last Trip is a true crime podcast covering missing and murdered people that were living their best lives on vacation.

35:19 I'm your host, Jamie Beebe. And each week I'll bring you on the last trip, taking a deep dive into vacation culture and travel spots, tips on staying alive while traveling, and ultimately recreating someone's last days and paradise. What led to their last trip? What are the hard facts? What is the final outcome? And could you be next? David Smedin was a 24-year-old college student from Utah, attending Mandarin classes in Beijing when he mysteriously disappeared while hiking Tiger Leaping Gorge. Chinese authorities said he drowned in the gorge and US authorities agreed, although his body was never found and his parents didn't believe that. Seven years later, out of the blue, they got a phone call from a former US official who had evidence David is still alive.

36:06 This case sounds like a Hollywood movie, but evidence doesn't lie. So where is David Smedin? Famous rugby player and celebrity ex-factor contestant, Levi Davis, went missing in Barcelona last year while on a backpacking trip through Europe. Just days before he vanished, he posted a 15-minute video to his Instagram account saying his life was in danger and people were after him. After he disappeared, several theories emerged, but what really happened to Levi Davis? Join me, Jamie Beebe, co-host of the popular True Crime series, Strictly Stalking, as I embark on a brand new adventure combining True Crime and Travel. Listen to The Last Trip wherever you get your podcast.

36:48 Check them out, creepy people. You can find their info in our show notes. Any hosel back to the story. Within minutes, the police were at the Mattson Family Home, followed by Dr. Mattson and his wife Ruth returning from their social function. Thankfully, detectives were able to collect a good description from the children who had seen the kidnappers mask slip. The FBI then generated a drawing of the kidnapper that would be distributed far and wide on posters in newspapers, as well as the law enforcement bulletin produced by, say, magency of the FBI.

37:31 They were like, we're so good, we make all the stress. (laughs) (sighs) - They had the FBI back then? - Yeah. - I'm like, yeah, I'm already talking about that. (laughs) - Like, I already talked about how they were just good. - God, God, like you don't even listen to me. Anyways, try not to. (laughs) - Thank you. - The Tacoma Police Department worked quickly, searching that nearby area for Charles, as well as his assailant. They believed the man to be roughly middle aged in his mid-30s to early 40s, standing about five-seven, weighing roughly 145 pounds.

38:15 The man, if quickly discovered, would presumably still be accompanied by his victim standing at just four-six. - No. - Barely, barely. Oh, barely dollar that in this kid. (laughs) So basically within a margin of error compared to my own height, I say, in my notes. We're different, but James is. - Little Charles had been seen wearing a gray sweater, blue knicker bockers and house slippers. And you guys, if you're not totally sure what knicker bockers are, they're really a sight to behold. - No. - Wikipedia says they're a form of baggy need breaches, particularly popular in the early 20th century United States.

39:02 But honestly, if it weren't for the fact that most of the ones that I saw looked like they were made out of straight burlap sacks, I'd have to swear they were something smuggled off the set of a production of Aladdin. (laughs) All of the pictures, you're like, why would you make Aladdin pants out of like wool? Like something scratchier than wool. What scratchier than wool? Like burlap sacks. - Yeah. - They look like they're, oh my God. It's so cute and old-timey, but they look so uncomfortable. - Yeah. - So hot, so itchy. - You're very focused on the clothes in this episode. - I mean, I just was like, I don't know, that I fully understand what knicker bockers are.

39:47 I understand they're like pants, but then I was like, all right, we gotta look further into this, 'cause obviously that's gonna be the weird thing that Cassie and I focus on. (laughs) - We were talking about the football clothes being scratchy. - Everything was so fucking scratchy. - But now I get like why they wore long johns under everything because they-- - Now I get why everybody looked fucking miserable in every picture they ever took. They were hot and itchy. - Entire, 'cause they're wearing like 50 pounds of clothing. Police were quickly able to piece together that the kidnappers most likely escape route was getaway car on Rustin Avenue, which also suggested he may have had an accomplice.

40:31 - Oh. - And though they were certainly near enough to a body of water that might have otherwise aided in the kidnappers escape, it was unlikely that he had utilized a boat. As it turns out that on that particular Sunday night, it had been one of the lowest tides to occur all of that year. - Did he use an inner tube? (laughs) (laughs) - I don't think he would have been able to get away quickly in an inner tube. Have we not learned that? - He didn't talk to a DB-tuber. He didn't rig a pulley system. - Oh my God. - I think, yeah, no. (laughs) - I had to.

41:13 Of course, the search would not prove fruitful in any case, but that didn't mean they had nothing to go on. The note recovered by detectives written by the kidnapper that had been left in the home proved interesting, if not necessarily particularly helpful to their case. It appeared to have been written on a child's toy typewriter, which I had no fucking idea existed, but it makes sense, given the time, listen, do me a favor. If anyone has one of these little curiosities just sitting around collecting dust, let me know. I will send you a prepaid shipping label 'cause I won't sit. - Who uses typewriters anyway?

41:54 - No one does. It's a kid's typewriter, though. - Taylor Swift lyric. (screams) That is so cute. - I like you used it for the worst thing ever. - Yeah, kidnap a kid. - What a dick. - Yeah, I mean, he is garbage, but toy typewriter adorable. And I want one. I want one. - It would be perfect for your size. - It really would. The note had been typed up in a reportedly odd color ink, not sure what color, but since it was probably dictated from a kid's typewriter, I feel like that probably checks out. At a glance, it seemed a little wandering and disjointed, but in truth, the in-depth analysis of the letter revealed that it was fairly well written.

42:39 And to the point, like most of my AP comp assignments, clearly I have since diverged ever so slightly from Ms. Cole's typical coursework. - I was gonna say, that makes one of us. - Yeah. - I don't think mine were coherent at all. - Yeah. - I'm not being given college credit as a motivating factor for this podcast, but I am still driven by the one to five scale rating system. - Five stars, people. Five stars. - We're in a son apple spot-a-by, or anywhere you listen to podcasts. - Exactly. - I was like, how do I find myself here? I was like the most bizarre of tangents, but here we are.

43:21 The demands of the kidnapper or neighbor. - I don't like it. I really hate it when they say kidnapper. - Stop it. - We're stated clearly in the note, the price is $28,000. $10,000 in fives and tens. $18,000 in fifties and hundreds. Old bills, please, D. That's how it's spelled. - Please. - Please D. P-L-E-A-S-D. Could be a typo? - I was wondering if he had- - The typewriter made a bunch of typos and had to keep ripping it out and restarting.

44:02 - Yeah, he's like nah, ain't nobody got time for that. Old bills, please, no new ones. Put ad in Seattle Times, personal column, read, mabel. What's your new address, Tim? Put this ad times no other paper. If no answer from you within week, price goes up, Goes up, Gos up, g-o-s, Gos up, double, and double that each week after. Don't fail. And I won't. The boy is safe.

44:44 Tim. - So his name is Tim. - Allegedly. - He's brought it twice. - He's, yeah. I mean, I don't know how likely it is that his real name is Tim, but it's weird. - Yeah. It's riddled with spelling and grammatical errors, whereas my writing only contains careless typos. So you can see why it'd be perturbed. - I thought you said it was coherent. I feel like you're relying on those. - I mean, kind of, like the point of it was there, but it's really hard to read without getting distracted by the grammatical and spelling errors. - Yeah. - Yeah. - That's upsetting, you know, aside from the whole thing of the life of a child hanging in the balance.

45:27 Priorities may be spelled correctly, and people will take your ransom note seriously. But honestly, they took it seriously regardless. - Yeah. - Whoa. A few things to keep in mind regarding this case before we make our way to the conclusion. The ransom note appeared to not only be old, but dirty and lacking in specifics, leading investigators to believe it may have been drafted to use in a future kidnapping of convenience. - Oh, so you didn't type it up there. - Kidnappings were real popular. - I was thinking he typed up that thing there, like on their toy typewriter.

46:11 - Oh, like why would you, I think he used his own kids typewriter. - Oh God. - Yeah. Though there was a theory that the kidnapper may have originally intended to abduct John Franklin, the young son of George G Franklin, Jr., and wife Margaret, who had been the current residents of Hadaway Hall at the time, which happened to be the former residents of John Philip Weyerhaeuser Senior. - No shit. - Yeah. - What? - In fact, there were multiple break-in attempts by a man matching the kidnappers description that lent credence to this theory.

47:01 One of the two encounters also bore a striking resemblance to the Lindbergh baby case, as a latter had been used in an effort to enter the young child's bedroom. In the second, the intruder appeared in a banner, far more bold, firing a weapon as they fled. - Wow. - Both incidents were kept secret from the public, and the Franklin family left for an unscheduled sojourn to California shortly after. They're like, okay, bye forever. - God damn dude.

47:41 - Yeah. - So it's possible that even though I'm sure they themselves were maybe quite wealthy, they may have been mistaken for members of the Weyerhaeuser family. - Wow. - Wild. - That is intense. Like that could be-- - Wild. - Not that I wanted to happen to another family, but like that could have happened to their family again. Like, yeah. (gasps) - Well, Senior was, I believe the grandpa, so I don't know that any of the Weyerhaeuser children would have been living in that home at that time. - Yeah. - But I mean, yeah, I'm just fucking wild.

48:23 The parallels. Like, I mean, these cases happened so close together to wild. - Weird. Speaking of crazy. Actually, this is like the most same thing that Congress has done, probably, so. J.K., Congress passed the Federal Kidnapping Act, also known as the Lindbergh Law, on June 17th, 1932, making Interstate Kidnapping a Federal felony under the jurisdiction of the FBI. The law was in direct response to what appeared to be an increasingly profitable and popular racket that of kidnapping for ransom, particularly that of the Lindbergh baby, which is not a case that ends well, either.

49:15 Until the kidnapping of Charles Mattson, there have been no major kidnappings involving the FBI since the kidnapping of none other than George H. Weyerhaeuser in Tacoma, also in fucking Tacoma. On May 24th, 1935, this was not that long after. - Yeah, well. - We're talking like May 1935, and then December 1936. - I can't remember, did those people get caught? - Sure did. - They did, okay, it's the only one.

49:56 - What would you want to do it again if they got caught? - Well, I mean, it's different people. It's different people, it's not the, I mean. - Yeah, but we know. - But we know, there could be some crossover, but we're not sure. - Yeah. - Oh. - The intrigue. - Woo! - But it's like, I mean, that made it a very, very serious crime. It's also funny to me too, because until Charles was kidnapped, there had been no major kidnappings involving the FBI since George, and it's like, yeah, there was like six months ago, man. - Yeah. - It's like, wait, is that right? - No, there was like 18 months ago. - Still. - J.K. - 18 months. - I'll tip my, she can, man.

50:38 - I can, man. - I just feel like that isn't really saying much. It's not that long of a period of time in between, but it is, it's like, that is what kind of earmarks this case as like the next like super high profile crime in that era involving kidnapping and ransom. So, but in any case, once the FBI was notified of the abduction, they determined that the federal kidnapping act had likely been violated. And immediately sent nine agents to Tacoma to assist the police in the hunt for the kidnapper, who was declared public enemy number one.

51:19 - Oh, not in a good way. - No. - Which feels like an understatement when considering that within a week, FBI director, John Edgar Hoover, dispatched roughly 40 agents to Tacoma. And it's like, what? There was like, he sends like 50 people within like a week. So he's like, okay, we're gonna send like nine and then we'll send like 40 more. - That you could bet you do it. - Yeah. Jesus Christ. Along with the assistant director, Harold Nathan, to take charge of the investigation.

52:01 Notably, Inspector Earl J. Connolly, who had successfully directed the warehouse or case, roughly 18 months earlier was sent from bureau headquarters to support the investigation. - Shit, dude, he's probably like, again. All the same, journalists were all but foaming at the mouth to get the next bit of coverage pertaining to the case, just as had been true in the warehouse or case. Sadly, those shadowing his every move made it very difficult for Dr. Mattson to negotiate with the kidnapper. However, just days after Christmas on Monday, December 28th, 1936, an advertisement appeared in the classified section of the Seattle Times, which read, "Mable, please give us your address and."

52:56 Although the Mattson's denied knowledge of the ad, a special delivery letter arrived at the Mattson home Tuesday morning, which said that anyone could deliver the ransom money as long as the courier was alone and driving a Ford automobile. Further instruction said, "Agnore all messages delivered to you unless they are written in the same letters and the same ink as this. Tim." - Was there a lot of cars besides Ford's back then? - I don't really think so. - Or did it just mean it had to be in a car? - I'm not really sure. - Interesting. - In this case, the authorities agreed to back off until such a time that the safer turn of Charles could be secured, but still the media persisted, attempting to report every last detail.

53:48 By January, dropping temperatures combined with increased snowfall in the area had the FBI concerned that the kidnapper might hold Charles indefinitely for fear of being easily tracked on account of the fresh flurries falling to the ground. Still, even as the weather cleared on Wednesday, January 6, their fears could not be aswaged as the kidnapper still remained eerily silent. - Silent night. - Yeah. Unholy night. - Unholy night for certain. The following day was the 11th day of Charles' captivity, and the family had no idea whether he might already be dead, or in fact remained alive and unharmed.

54:38 The news media continued to madly spiral, indeed essentially stalking the grief-stricken family. - Jesus. - Worried for the young Charles, while the authorities continued their non-interventionist strategy, very popular in America, in the 1930s and up to a certain point in the '40s as well. - So the '40 people were just sitting up there, chilling? - I mean, they just were trying not to step on too many toes. They were there and they were trying to investigate, and I mean, they were really, they were trying to do everything that they can, but I think at that point, we don't have the same level of experience and data and expertise that we do now about these types of scenarios.

55:28 So they're like, well, I don't know, maybe if we just back off, like everything will be fine. - It's hard to know what to do. It's kind of like literally if someone is holding a hostage at gunpoint right there, you can't shoot at them, like what do you do? - I mean, you can, sometimes they do. That's supposed to, right? - I mean, it really depends, it's very situational, but yeah, by and large, yeah, they're not gonna fire on someone who, but I don't know, I don't, it's like you can't project someone. - No, you don't, I mean, and even if they don't see it coming, this could be something where it's like a twitch or a jerk once they're impacted by, listen, I'm gonna spiral, I'm gonna go into a very dark place.

56:16 Darker than is already standard for all up in here. I'll, I'll, I'll pull you out. - You can't. - No, I'm like the unicorn in. - We're fun. - What is that, the never ending story? - I'm nursing it. - Oh my God. Okay, anyways, we have to move on. - We have to move on. - Sorry. - A fifth classified ad was run by the Mattson family in the Seattle Times on Friday, January 8, which read, "Mabel, we are still waiting. All arrangements have been carried out in accordance with instructions contained in notes received.

56:57 Be certain to give me information so I may guard against imposter and hijackers and be more specific in your instructions." Ann. On Sunday, January 10th, and the following Monday, the same ad appeared with the addition of one sentence. "In view of laps of time, "also desire, new proof my son is alive and well." Ann. However, though the family remained unaware, sadly it was already too late for Charles. A rabbit hunter by the name of Gordon Morrow would later discover his body on January 11th, 1937, just a few short miles from his family's home in a Snohomish County field.

57:54 Gordon had stumbled across the body of a young boy in a state of undress lying in the snow. He immediately ran home, alerting his father, Charles Morrow, to his horrific finding. Once he had inspected the scene, Charles sent his son to a gas station about a half mile away to reach the Snohomish County Sheriff by phone to inform him of the gruesome discovery. Now remember, not everybody has a phone in their home at this point. - Wow. - A lot of people, maybe, and certainly in a wealthy community, you know, not everybody.

58:36 That poor kid, he was being run ragged. - Yeah. The area where the body was discovered was just about a half mile from Pacific Highway or 99 as literally everyone refers to it to my knowledge. It had been left amongst a growth of older saplings because there were both tire tracks and footprints found at the scene in the fresh snow. The investigators believed that the boy's body had been left there either late Sunday night or early Monday morning, having been killed elsewhere. Gordon Morrow thought the body was probably left about 9 p.m. on Sunday when his bulldog Nick started barking excitedly and running from door to door trying to get out of the house.

59:28 - Oh. (laughing) He's like, "Someone needs my help!" "Someone, something is afloat!" - "Listen, your dog!" - "I know, I know." - I mean, it wouldn't have changed things. - No, it wouldn't. - But I'm saying like they know something is going on. - Yeah. - Yeah. The young boy's body was kept in an ambulance at the crime scene until it was identified as Charles by Paul H. "Siva, I'm gonna guess on the pronunciation." He was a close family friend. And James Gowdy, a relative of the Mattsons.

1:00:10 A preliminary examination of the remains conducted by Snohomish County Corner, which, wow, we're guessing on the pronunciation here a little bit, stole, shallochome, and King County Corner, Auto H Middlestedt, was able to determine that the boy's likely cause of death was blunt trauma to his head with a heavy instrument. The report further detailed the condition of Charles' body. Stating that the bruises on the body indicated he had been handled roughly, which I think we could have told you that from as soon as he was taken from the home.

1:00:55 And marks on the wrists showed his hands had been bound tightly with rope. They thought Charles had died no later than Thursday, and possibly only a short time after his abduction. Abrajians, grease marks, and dirt on the skin indicated the frozen body had been hauled around in the trunk of an automobile. - What the fuck is the point? - I thought you wanted money. - I mean, sometimes they think they can still get money, and a lot of times they use the ransom as a guise because what they really want to do is take a child.

1:01:37 - It seems like it. - Yeah. On Monday night, at the FBI's direction, pathologist performed a formal autopsy at the Buckley King funeral home in Tacoma, which revealed that in addition to the massive head injuries, Charles had also sustained a stab wound in the back with a long-bladed knife. - Cheers. - Below freezing temperatures had prevailed in the region for nearly a week, keeping the body from decomposing and making it impossible to determine the time of death. But blue clay on the boy's face and hands indicated the body had probably been hidden on a riverbank or near mud flats.

1:02:27 During a press conference on Tuesday, Paul Siva, that's the family friend who acted as a spokesman for the family, told reporters that the weary kidnapper had communicated at least three times with Dr. Matzen by mail and telephone. But as days passed, his communications were confusing and conflicting, and Dr. Mattson was unable to get clear instructions on how to deliver the ransom. In early January, Dr. Mattson attempted a rendezvous at a secret location on Beacon Hill in Seattle. But there had been a snow-related traffic accident nearby, attracting the attention of several passers-by, and kidnapper apparently fearing a trap failed to appear and the negotiations ended abruptly.

1:03:23 No. On January 14, the funeral for Charles H. Mattson was held at the Buckley King funeral church. The 25-minute service conducted by Reverend Harold B. Long, pastor of the Emanuel Presbyterian Church, was attended by family and some 200 friends, after which the body was interred in a crypt at the Tacoma mausoleum. - About 200 people? - Over well over 200 people. - That's crazy. - Included among the scores of floral tributes was a large arrangement of roses and gardenias from FBI director J. Edgar Hoover.

1:04:13 - Oh. - Still a dick. - Meanwhile, both local police and FBI agents were still working to collect any information or evidence and pursuing any lead they could find. They tracked down the usual suspects, such as numerous known criminals, questioning scores of possible suspects, they even looked for stolen cars or potential hideouts and literally any other clue. While search parties had found a number of items that appeared promising that were then collected and analyzed by the FBI, it all seemed to lead precisely nowhere.

1:04:55 By January of 1937, the story was no longer front page news and the leads began to slowly dry up. Among the items discovered were a stolen, blood-stained automobile, a kitchen knife, as well as a shack where a number of clothing items both boys and men's clothing, some of them bloody, were found. It was believed that any of these items may have been used by the kidnapper, but still nothing more materialized. - It seems like they literally found all of the things, but the guy who did it.

1:05:35 - Yep. We can talk about it after when you're done. - On Saturday, January 16th, 1937, Dr. Mattson issued his first written statement about the kidnapping, which was both published in newspapers and broadcast on the radio. First, he thanked the public for its support and praised law enforcement or their tireless efforts. Then, Dr. Mattson commented on the behavior of the news media. True enough, I did have to beg the press to lay off and it was trying at times to carry on under an overly, under an overly, average news service.

1:06:24 But they did withdraw when I requested them to and continue to cooperate with me in every way. And for this, I am thankful. - Wow. - Yes, some other people, we'll talk about it in the Patreon mini-sode. There are some other people with other opinions. And not just me. (sniffing) Although law enforcement authorities make every effort, the kidnapping and murder of Charles Mattson has never been solved and remains an open case at the federal bureau of investigation. As of 1961, over 25,000 suspects have been investigated and eliminated according to the final page of the piece entitled, protecting the innocent.

1:07:17 Law enforcement's sacred task. By none other than J. Edgar Hoover, housed in the Notre Dame. - Notre Dame. - Notre Dame. - I like Dame. Notre Dame, law review. - 25,000? Is that normal? I'm gonna go with no. - A lot of people. - When it's presumably a stranger abduction, you have a much larger pool. Wow. So for anybody that finds themselves obsessed with the JonBen��t Ramsey case, I mean, I get it, but also like, uh, lurrr.

1:08:01 I mean, we know who did it. I have theories, but we're not gonna get into that. All I'm saying is pineapple kills people. - What? - Pineapple is a major aspect of that case. - I don't remember that part. - Oh my God. - Yep. - Nope. - It's all last thing. - Been a while. - Maybe we'll have to talk about that. I'd be okay with that. - Yeah. I've never really, I've never really thought about covering JonBen��t. - I don't know where it's at. Colorado, I believe. - Oh. - Yeah. - Technically in our jurisdiction. - No.

1:08:41 - Our jurisdiction. (laughs) - Yeah, I mean, I'm just reading so much of J. Edgar Hoover's stuff here that I think I got a little woo. - Did you love it? - Ugh, it was the best thing you ever heard. - He's kind of the worst. I mean, he definitely like tried to do right by this family, but I mean, he's that sour. He had his assistants and plumber. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. Any who's all, should we get to some tarot? - Yeah, let's do tarot. - Let's get, I'm happy to do tarot. - She's like, okay, bye. - Okay, bye. - Bye. (laughs) - I know, that was so sad. - I know. - The poor, I know.

1:09:22 - The poor family. - The youngest child too. Can you imagine? And then they have a friend there. - Yeah, I would just think that. - They have a friend there that witnesses that like, holy shit, is she your BFF forever? - I don't know. - I don't know. - I'm a bonded, we've talked about it. - We talked about it. - You don't have to stay together, but. Or does that just like become this thing that like, is so huge, your relationship just cannot bridge that divide? Oh. (sighs) And I actually have in the Patreon mini-sau, there is something so incredibly tragic about this case that predates even Charles's birth.

1:10:06 And I don't wanna give too much away, but holy fucking shit, when will people stop fucking with the Mattsons? I can't, I can't. This poor family. - I wish they would never fuck with them. - Yeah, like, zero fucking about with the Mattson family. Shhh, stop it. So so sad. (whimsical music) (Cards shuffling) (Cards shuffling) - So three of wands in the reverse? - Yeah. - Red-tailed hawk adult.

1:10:49 - Yeah. - It's specifying it's an adult. - Okay, I think we've gotten this one before and we've read about the hawk. - Oh, 'cause we've got, the two of wands is a red-tailed hawk, a fledgling. - Oh. - That's not an adult. - I assume that's not an adult. (laughs) - A fledgling, is that like an adolescent? Like a baby? Just a little baby. - It's not close. - Oh, check. - I can't know when I'll, oh well. All right, we're gonna keep it moving. Our keywords for the three of wands are creativity and skill, self-expression, growth, competence and manifestation.

1:11:30 - It's interesting. - Okay. - Now is the time to show the world what you can do. You've worked hard to develop your talents and have confidence in your abilities. You, I really hate this in the application of like a kidnapper. - It is reverse, so I'm curious about the reverse interpretation of this. - Oh, okay. - You feel passionately about what you do and believe you can inspire others, express yourself. - Hmm, okay. - We've definitely gotten this before. I think we have the same like reaction. It's like, ooh. - Yeah, itki. - Okay. - Ooh.

1:12:11 - Okay, there's an extra excerpt before the reverse interpretation. It says, hidden alliances, work to move you into your authentic vocation, as soon as you begin to commit to it. - Hmm. - I get automatically reminds me of what you said about how there might have been like a getaway driver, like other people might have been involved. And he stayed like hidden, like he had a mask. - Ooh, I hate that. - Obviously like this part is putting like a positive spin on it, but we know we're gonna relate it to this story and it's not. - Yeah. - Okay.

1:12:52 - You still have work to do before you go public with your ideas. - Oh no. Like maybe your generic poorly written demand letter isn't ideal. - I needed work. - Definitely. - Perhaps you could benefit from honing your skills. - Honing your kiddo tie-freader skills. - Oh no, I hate that. Some areas of an undertaking still need clarification. Oh my God, they literally asked for clarification in the instructions from, yeah. And it's resolved. - Cookie. - Or you may need to win the support and blessing of others in order to advance.

1:13:36 - Okay, I'm gonna read the bullet points and then I might wanna draw in their card. - In a question about money, this card can mean the financial support you need isn't there at this time. - What? (laughs) - You might have to work extra hard for a while to make ends meet. Be prudent in spending. - Oh gosh. - In a reading about work, the reverse three suggests you're not ready yet to market your project slash ideas. You feel passionately about what you're doing, but you still have to convince other people to get on board. - Yeah. - For artistic people, this card advises, don't give up your day job yet.

1:14:20 - Well, yeah, don't kidnap people. - Yeah, don't do that professionally or otherwise, ideally. - I should say kidnap and murder because it was not. - Yeah. - It just reminds me of something that you're trying to do that isn't going right, basically. - Yeah, stop trying to make that happen. - Ooh, a hawk. He was maybe watching the place. - Oh yeah, that's a really good connection. This one also has birds. - Interesting. - Yeah. - Oh, it's a two of cups. Oh, that's like the really happy card. - It is, it was in reverse. - Okay.

1:15:01 - Okay. Oh no, oh, this makes sense though, I think. Oh. Okay, two of cups, keywords are partnership, harmony, creative exchange and cooperation. In many decks, the two of cups shows a man and woman holding chalices as if toasting each other. The card represents joining forces with someone either romantically or in a creative slash spiritual endeavor. - The card keeps coming up when we're talking about your wedding. - Yeah, that's true. Ooh. You share a common dream, interest or passion and can work together to bring it into being.

1:15:44 We kept getting it in the upright. I feel like as opposed to now we're doing it in the reverse. Both of these cards are in reverse. - It just makes me think that he did how to have like a partner. - Yeah. - I think that seems like maybe a fair assumption. I don't know. - I don't know, I mean, I don't have all of the evidence, but yeah, but I think it makes sense. And the fact that the investigator is believed that based on the fact that it looks like he fled to a car, you know, right around the corner essentially. - And the tarot is saying it. So like it must be true. - Yeah, so I mean, the backs, am I right? Mutual respect and equality exists between you.

1:16:27 All right, so our reversed interpretation. When the two of cups appears reversed, it suggests disharmony and a lack of cooperation. I'm picturing two kidnappers just kind of bickering. Like the guys from home alone or something. - Yeah. - You know, just like real dumb. - It just seems like it because of all of the miscommunication with the ransom and stuff. Maybe one of them did want to hurt the child and one of them didn't. And I mean, you see that a lot where just kind of they're not aligned.

1:17:08 They're both interested in collecting ransom or a reward, but they don't have the same values in terms of like, I don't want to hurt the kid. And the other guys like, I don't really care. - Yeah, so maybe just like don't do crime. - Yeah, so just like don't. - So just maybe don't. - Oof. - Okay. - It may mean a partnership takes a while to get going or that you run into obstacles. In some cases, it indicates dwindling affection, inequality or a lack of supportiveness in a relationship. In a reading about money, the reverse two can signify an uneven investment of resources.

1:17:52 It can also represent complications or a delay in receiving money. - Wow, okay, yes. - Especially from a joint venture, trust, divorce settlement or legacy or ransom. - That's a little, yeah, that feels kind of on the nose. - Wow. - If the reading is about your job, this card may mean you don't feel a business partner is pulling his or her weight or you don't get the support you desire. It can also point to a lack of cooperation in your workplace. In a reading about love, the reverse two sometimes represents a secret liaison or it may point to a period of disharmony or cooling affection.

1:18:35 Perhaps there's a lack of balance or equality in a relationship. - All of that sounds great. - Yeah, I think so. And I feel like the kind of the takeaway from both of those cards now kind of makes a little bit more. It feels like that hits. - Okay, I was thinking like what if he is someone who migrated over here but with no paperwork or something, that's why they couldn't find him. - Oh. - Because he had no record. - Maybe. - I feel like that's back then. - Yeah. - It was easier to get into the country without anyone knowing. - That's true. Yeah, there's a lot more tomfoolery that could be afloat.

1:19:15 And it's this travel here. So interesting. I think I solved it. - Solved it. You're welcome. - The hawk hopped off the ledge idly, unperturbed that their motion was more falling than taking flight. Oh my God. That's like kind of funny. 'Cause it's like he's just like fumbling through this thing, like knocking on the door and then deciding to break it. - Well, and then not to mention too, like they talked about that really steep embankment at the back end of their property. - It reminds me like Princess Bride where they just like rolled in the hills. - Little bit, right? I mean, oof, I don't know. That's kind of, it's interesting.

1:19:56 The visual aspect of that is. - It also reminds me of myself getting out of the car 'cause I'm like really bad at getting out of the car. I just kind of like fall out. - I'm really bad at getting out. - I don't know why it's so hard. - Mostly bad, but like sometimes the car, I don't know. They smoothly extend their wings into the turbulence, calmly feeling for the familiar support of the air. Catching it in their feathers, they directed the momentum of their fall into an upward curve. On a rising wind, they circled higher until they could see the curvature of the horizon and the world laid out before them.

1:20:38 - Oh wow. - Once stepping from solidarity into the sky had been daunting and dangerous. Now the hawk knew that the risk was not in taking the leap, it was in staying still. - Oh, that's very interesting. - Yeah. 'Cause that like it, like ransom, you can't just sit there. - Well, yeah. - You have to do something. - Yeah. - Yeah. It reminds me of like all the FBI agents there too, like trying not to get in the way too much, but it's not wanting to like sit there and do nothing. - Yeah. - Like the push and pull of the situation.

1:21:21 - That's interesting. - And like the risk too of, you know, this bird leaping into the air and trying to fly, it's like the risk of doing something and risking this child's life. - Yeah. Wow, I hadn't really thought about it from, I guess that perspective, that's interesting. - That's what I'm here for. - Yeah, this is a rough one. - Yeah. - Sorry. - I don't know why I'm apologizing. I didn't do this. - She did it. - I do worse. - No. - Yeah, I do worse. - I'm not true at all. - I don't know if it's debatable. - No. - Debate a bone. Do you have anything else?

1:22:02 - No, I have some other notes that I'm gonna, we'll go through and we'll do our little mini-sode for Patreon, but. - Okay, other than that. No, we have like so many mini-sodes to catch up on too. So, Patreon, we're coming. - Good time. - It's gonna be on the Patreon. - We did just do a Patreon bonus. We released one on, I think it was Friday, but I posted it. - That sounds right. - That was yesterday. Oh my God, it's Saturday. - Oh, what is happening? - Oh, seriously. - You know, back on Friday when I posted that. - Well, and when did that episode come out? 'Cause I was like, oh, that's like a little while back. - It was, it was the targeted terror the hornstein family.

1:22:44 It's night. - Ooh. - It was a bonus about that. So, another fun case that I have covered. - But the bonus, what it's not as terrifying at the original. - No, I've been trying to find, do a little bit of like kind of a deep dive and sometimes you just come across like an article that talks about a case or like someone involved in it from a totally different angle than everything else that you're reading or a very specific point in the timeline or I don't know, something that just doesn't always fit neatly. - Yeah. - And sometimes I'm like, I'm not gonna make this a two-parter, especially because it's like, this is like 1.125 parts, really, if you, you know, if you add it all up, but yeah, there's a lot of, I'm super excited for you to hear this mini-side because I think there's some synchronicity stuff that's gonna like kind of, - Oh.

1:23:47 - And then knock your sacks off, baby. - All right, well let's do it. - Show it. - Let's go do that. - All right, should we say goodbye to the people? - Yeah, okay. - Say goodbye to the regular creepy. - Where are our manners? (laughing) - Have a creepy ass day. See you next Tuesday. - See you next Tuesday. - Please don't ask for a ransom, I guess. Like a, it's like a, it's like a, - Falling down a hill, yelling for $28,000. Come see us instead. - Wait, wait, I, I, I, I, I've been come like, watch us listen to us, be normal person, don't be an asshole. - I was like, are you not fighting, kid, that's normal. - No, no, no, what I meant.

1:24:30 - Listen to creepy stuff, don't be the creepy stuff. - That's true. - Yes. - Okay. - Am I the weird one? (laughing) - I really do think that's our news, yeah. - We're gonna go ahead and reddit. (upbeat music) - Kind of, yeah, it was like, - Not a, okay. - Toyota. - Yeah. - Do you bring a Mitsubishi? (laughing) - A Mitsubishi. - I was gonna say that so funny, 'cause I wanted to say that, but I knew like my mouth couldn't get the word out. - I was like, God damn it, I was so close. - I didn't even wanna see the intent that word. - Mitsubishi. - Mitsubishi.

1:25:10 - You're wrong. - I did. - I did wanna see, yeah. I know I feel like if you say it with an Italian flair, it's all wrong, but be fun. - It's all wrong, not right at all. - No. - Don't cancel me, please. - Listen, if saying Mitsubishi that way is wrong, I don't wanna be right. - If you win anything, it's like a vowel, like an eye or something. - I wanna give it the flourish. (pnwhauntsandhomicides.com)