Missing in Wenatchee: The Decker Sisters Case

0:02 The search quickly became one of the largest coordinated manhunts in the region in recent years, and included the US Marshall Service, the FBI, Washington State Patrol, Shelan County Sheriff's Office, and numerous local search and rescue groups. Accustomed to operations in rugged wilderness terrain, these agencies brought together drones, helicopters, canine units, ground teams, and trackers experienced in wilderness navigation. Wow, So I mean they pulled it all out? Hi, Cassie, Hi, Caitlin High creepy people.

0:43 Hello, This is PNW Hanson Homicides where we chat about true crime, the paranormal and other spooky things and creepy shit, all kinds of stuff. We also do a Tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight into our topic. Okay, so jumping into it. Travis Caleb Decker, age thirty two, has been variously described as an active, athletic father and alternately a struggling ex soldier. As his mental health deteriorated, he exhibited increasing signs of instability. Whitney Decker, his ex wife and the mother of their three young daughters, Peyton Evelyn and Olivia grew concerned. They were nine, eight and five at the time. I know this is kind of rough timing after the Powell case, but this one has been on my radar for a while because it is really kind of a fresh case, fresh ish, okay, you know, I think the case is at the point that we have most of the answers that we're likely to ever receive, which is sort of, I'm realizing, in hindsight, a little bit of a foreboding place to start, but it does inform. This case received extensive local coverage, but primarily in waves as major updates occurred from last May to October twenty twenty five.

2:15 That was a couple months ago. Okay, Yeah, so I mean for those of us that live in the region and if you followed it, it probably doesn't feel as fresh. But it is a very recent case. We don't talk about as many cases that are like this recent. It didn't receive the type of sustained coverage that we see in some other cases, you know, like Idaho for Gabby Patito, just you know, kind of some examples of ones that really did get the absolute like not just sustained but like national and international interest and coverage in a case that was quickly revealed as seemingly clear cut, where there is no trial or interrogation footage to televise, and the surviving family of the victims maintained privacy throughout their grief, the narrative and the media coverage itself was stunted and shockingly brief, right because like, what is there really to report on?

3:13 You know? Yeah, it does sort of become like there's there's not really a nice way to put this, but I feel like the intrigue and the mystery is sort of taken out of it, so it just, yeah, it doesn't always hold our attention in the same way. Yeah, like I'm thinking like shock value, you know, clickbait. It's not as clickbaity. Yes. Absolutely. While there aren't any significant or abundant studies of a robust academic makeup to cite, there does appear to be a phenomenon of PNW cases being generally under reported unless they grab national interest early. A case like Decker's, tragic but seemingly straightforward gets pushed out of the national spot.

4:00 I think it's because we're kind of we're like the youngest sibling of the family, like we're the wild West, the territory settled last, and I think a lot of times areas like Dallas, Fort Worth or like New York City, Chicago, those are kind of considered more major hubs than even you know, maybe Seattle, and. We're just the nasty little pnwo over. I don't know. Anyways, There's not a lot out there to cite in terms of research, but there is in terms of like actual like formal life studies. But there is like data that you can look at, and there's obviously anecdotal evidence.

4:45 I just think it's it's really kind of sad how that played out in this case because I expected to be seeing and hearing a lot more about this, so I've been kind of shocked over the last few months to not see that that makes sense. Yeah, well, I'm glad you're telling us about it. Yeah, I'm sorry. A United States military veteran, Travis had previously lived in various parts of the Winatchee Valley region of Washington State. According to information provided through court filings and statements made by his ex wife's attorney, Decker struggled with a combination of unstable housing, unemployment, and mental health challenges in the years following his military service, he seemed to be trying to cope with post traumatic stress symptoms, symptoms that were presenting as severe enough to be raised in discussion regarding custody and visitation for the couple's three young daughters.

5:44 Oh wow, So obviously this person needs hell. Yes, And I think we're all adult enough and see these things and experience them in so many different ways in our own personal experiences. But I think we all can understand that this is a really common problem for a lot of our service members, and that's upsetting on so many levels. The couple had divorced in twenty twenty three after several years of significant marital strain. Associated legal filings reflect negotiations over parenting time and related safety considerations.

6:27 A September twenty twenty four modification petition and related filings requested that overnight time with the girls be restricted and that Travis also be required to undergo. Mental health treatment. Wow, which I think is probably a net positive in some respects. Are they going to get them help finding the mental health treatment or is he just have to go? You know, their heart is kind of unclear to me. I would assume that when it's sort of like part of a court mandate. Yeah, when it's part of a mandate, I would think that there are going to be resources because if it's mandated, they have to be able to measure it, so they have to be able to provide you with resources to say this meets the bar. So I would assume that there's, you know, resources that are being provided to you. I don't have a ton of information about like the details of what that looks like.

7:23 But following the couple's divorce, Travis's visitation rights were governed by a court order that limited and structured his time with the children. On Friday May thirtieth, twenty twenty five, Decker arrived at his ex wife's home in the Wenatchee area to pick up his three daughters for a scheduled visitation. According to the family's attorney, Decker spoke with Whitney for approximately fifteen to twenty minutes at the door, engaging in what appeared to be normal conversation. Nothing in his demeanor stood out as alarming or unusual at the time, nor was there any indication that he had planned anything that could be characterized as out of the ordinary. So just a pretty typical visit. From their interaction, at least, he stated that he intended to drop the girls back off by eight pm that same evening. When eight pm passed without Degger returning the girls, Whitney attempted to contact him by phone, no answer. Subsequent calls also went to voicemail.

8:34 She reportedly tried multiple times over the next hour and grew increasingly concerned. This behavior was described as uncharacteristic for him, even amid their strained co parenting relationship. Court documents would later note that the mother expressed immediate and escalating worry due to his known mental health challenges and recent instability by May thirty first, so the following day, the girls were formally declared missing and Washington State Patrol issued an endangered missing person alert oh Man. According to my research, to issue a Washington State Amber alert, a child under eighteen must be confirmed as abducted, an eminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. Other descriptive information about a potential suspect or vehicle must be available to aid in law enforcement efforts to recover the child. Additionally, the report must be made to law enforcement and investigated before an alert is requested. So you need to have contacted the police essentially to file a missing person's report, and only then can you request an AMBER alert, which in I would say order of operations.

9:56 That probably makes sense. Yeah, it's unclear to me why law enforcement declined to activate an AMBER alert other than willful ignorance given the information at their disposal. It's totally making me think of the Pala case, like are these kids actually in danger? And you're like, well, I don't know, but like this has he threatened them directly? Maybe not, but you know, I think we have a history and it's documented in the courts that there were concerns. Yeah. Yeah, And I would say that anytime there is a custody situation where the parent has like court mandated structure and restrictions placed on their custody agreement, it should be concerning.

10:46 It should cause concern maybe for that child's wellbeing when the parent does not stick to the agreed upon schedule. I would say that alone, to me almost sparks that, like that's concerned learning. Yeah, I get how in allegal sentence maybe that doesn't rise to the bar, but I think in this case it's a little bit of a misfire to say that they didn't meet the criteria. According to public reporting, the case did not meet Washington State's Amber alert criteria at that time, a decision that later drew public scrutiny. As you might imagine, the lack of an Amber alert became one of the early controversies surrounding the case, as many community members and child's safety advocates argued that the combination of a missing parent, three very young children, and known mental health concerns should have triggered the highest level alert system. It seems to be a troubling pattern within the Washington welfare system designed to protect children.

11:53 But don't take my word for it. According to the Washington State Standards recent reporting, as a November twenty twenty five, deaths and critical injuries in Washington's child welfare system are near a record high. Oh why. Forty five children died or nearly died compared to forty nine in the previous year. It's too many. Yeah, And you know, just having you know, talked about the Powell case, I thought, gosh, am I and is it is it my perception that seems like God, what is going on in Washington State?

12:35 Yeah? And it turns out. Like I'm you know, I'm I'm noticing it because I'm talking about it and I'm researching it. But there's there is something of a pattern, and there there is it seems like a little bit of cause for concern because we're having these like kind. Of peak years. Yeah, so wow. On June second, authorities Life located Decker's white pickup truck near the Rock Island Campground, a forested area in Shellan County. The truck was parked near a wooded embankment in an area used by many that frequent that part of the Winnatchee National Forest for outdoor recreation. The father, Travis Decker, himself was not found at the scene, so his vehicles recovered, but he is not present. Tragically, the bodies of the three Decker sisters, Peyton, Evelyn, and Olivia were discovered down a small embankment near the truck, in a densely wooded area not far from the campground. The discovery set off a series of investigative steps, including preservation of the crime scene, immediate autopsies, and the launch of what became a multi agency manhunt for Decker.

13:57 Yeah. Now, yeah, yeah, I know it's frustrating. You know, I actually I had a conversation with Chris about this case, and the frustrating thing is that Amber alert or not. It's a possibility that nothing may have changed the outcome. But it feels better to know that we did everything that we could on the front end. Yeah, so that's kind of tough. It may not be realistic to launch a manhunt for every single missing child in America, but in hindsight, an amber alert doesn't seem like it's asking too much. Autopsy results determined that each child died from suffocation, and all three deaths were ruled homicides. These findings, combined with Decker's disappearance, created a straightforward investigative trajectory. Law enforcement agencies began to build a timeline of his movements from the time the girls were picked up on May thirtieth through period leading up to the discovery of the bodies on June second. According to investigative filings, two bloody handprints were found on the tailgate of Decker's truck. Oh, and this raised a question for me as I was researching, because why were there bloody handprints? Well, if all three girls were strangled.

15:20 Oh, it was like, I have a lot of questions were they whose hand prints? Were they? Right? Childs are adults? Or The truth is that it's likely very difficult to say for certain. Travis may have had an injury that predated the murders, or that even took place at the time of the crime. Additional forensic evidence in the vicinity included plastic bags and zip ties. So are they are presumably his hand prints? Yeah, and it's believed that it is his blood. Okay, that's kind of what I'm like, who else is would it be? But right, yeah, because it doesn't appear that there's blood evidence related to the girls.

16:02 So but that that was a little bit confusing, I think. Right, I'm trying not now, I'm trying not to think about it too hard because I'm like, what, yeah, what what do I want to not know in this moment. Authorities later reported that each child had one or more plastic bags placed over her head and that their wrists had been bound with zip ties. DNA testing conducted by the Washington State Crime Lab found Decker's DNA on said plastic bags and zip ties recovered from the scene. No other adult DNA profiles were identified on these items. These results significantly narrowed investigator's focus reinforcing the conclusion that Decker was the sole perpetrator, because truthfully, if if their father is missing and you're finding his bloody prints on the truck, you know, it's entirely possible that they had been attacked and you know, oh my gosh, what's become of him?

17:08 But unfortunately, Yeah, I was thinking, the only other thing I can think of is like someone held a gun to his head and forced him to do that. But then I feel like they might see like footprints or any other evidence of anybody else being. There, and they're not finding any other adult DNA profiles associated with essentially the items used to kill the girls. That seems very unlikely. So it's not very mysterious, but right, yeah, it's disgusting. Yes. Investigators also found digital forensic evidence indicating that in the days leading up to the killings, Decker conducted multiple online searches related to leaving the United States, relocating to Canada and finding employment across the border.

17:55 Why do you need to kill your kids to do that? Yeah, I don't know if that was a separate, you know, plot altogether, like maybe he planned to try to flee the country with them. Hard to say, and you know, at some point the plan changed. Just leave. Just leave them, just leave, just leave, just leave. These searches raised early questions about premeditation and a possible escape plan. Whether these searches reflected intent or desperation remains technically unclear, perhaps, but their presence in the digital timeline contributed to the prosecutorial logic in the charges that followed immediately following the discovery of the bodies, Travis Decker was charged with three counts of aggravated first degree murder and three counts of first degree kidnapping. In addition, federal authorities filed an unlawful flight to avoid prosecution charge.

18:53 Yeah. Yeah, very specific type of charge. Did they find him yet or this is what he's being charged with? Yeah, this is just his charges. Yeah. These charges were based on the combination of forensic evidence, Decker's disappearance, and the reconstructed timeline of his movements from May thirtieth onward. So, I mean, while we don't know if he really truly had any plan to flee to Canada, that was the fact that he did that Internet search. That's what led to the charge because that's another thing that they can kind of slap on. Yeah. The search quickly became one of the largest coordinated manhunts in the region in recent years, and included the US Marshall Service, the FBI, Washington State Patrol, Shelan County Sheriff's Office, and numerous local search and rescue groups accustomed to operations in rugged wilderness terrain, so a lot of bodies involved in the search. These agencies brought together drones, helicopters, canine units, ground teams, and trackers experienced in wilderness navigation.

20:10 Wow. So I mean they they pulled it all out trying to Yeah. But I think a lot of that had to do with his It wasn't just his military experience. He also had some experience kind of living briefly as like like a survivalist type of situation. Yeah. And he definitely had a lot of outdoor survival like skills and and like I said, you know, some experience to a degree were so he could get away potentially.

20:50 Yeah. Yeah, I think that was the concern very much. Decker was considered exceptionally dangerous for several reasons. Of course, there was his military background and likely familiarity with firearms, though notably none were found at the crime scene. But you know, then his documented wilderness experience and his demonstrated ability to survive and travel in remote outdoor environments, I. Would kind of assume that he just had guns on him, right. I feel like at a certain point that doesn't feel like a huge leap. Yeah, Like, of course they're not at the crime scene. Why would he leave his guns there? Right?

21:31 Yeah, And they weren't used in the commission of this particular crime, so it wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to be found there. But the terrain in which he disappeared includes steep and densely forested areas with rushing creeks and large swaths of roadless wilderness. Throughout the summer of twenty twenty five, teams searched hundreds of miles in the area. The manhunt also so expanded beyond Washington at various points based on tips, including one on July fifth from a camping family in Idaho's Sawtooth National Forest.

22:12 None of these sightings produced confirmed evidence of Decker. The manhunt only extended continuing into September. Despite the enormous search effort, extensive public coverage, and the distribution of Decker's image across news, social media, and law enforcement bulletins. As the case unfolded, community frustration and public discourse about the alert systems intensified. Some lawmakers and child safety advocates questioned whether the endangered Missing Person alert was sufficient and if adjustments to the criteria for AMBER alerts should be made in consideration in situations just such as this, where non custodial pay parents with documented safety concerns failed to return children per established custody agreements.

23:09 Well, I'm glad they're looking at that and are like, yeah, do we need to change this? Yeah, I mean so far, I'm not aware of any major changes. Sure, it'll take a minute. Yeah, the system moves slowly. Yeah, and that's the frustrating part for sure. But that's good to like, that's why it's good to have the story out there so everybody knows, like, hey, if this I don't know if we're going to get a chance to vote on it or whatever. If it stays in the government, Yeah, shenanigans, I have no idea, you guys, but yeah, it's good to know what's going on, like what to look for. It may not be a ballot measure, it may not be a vote. But here's the thing is, in so many ways, even when things don't end up on our ballot, we are voting because we can apply pressure to the representatives that are able to make changes and that are able to enforce a new set of systems. So it may not be voting in terms of like the ballot box, yeah, but like the way that we communicate and the way that we approach our representatives about these situations.

24:17 Once we have an awareness, that's how we vote. Yeah, that's how we vote with things that aren't ballot measures. Tell us, Caitlin, I'm telling you. In mid September twenty twenty five, human remains were found in a remote wooded area south of Leavenworth, less than a mile from where the Decker sisters had themselves been discovered. What The area where the remains were found is characterized by densely forested and steep terrain with very limited accessibility. Initial assessments by investigators led them to believe the remains were. Likely Travis Deckers. Holy shit.

25:00 Subsequent formal procedures, including forensic documentation, transfer of remains, and laboratory testing, were initiated immediately. On September twenty fourth, twenty twenty five, the US Marshall Service publicly announced that DNA analysis had confirmed the human remains discovered near Grindstone Mountain were those of Travis Caleb Decker. Local authorities stated that the remains were significantly decomposed, and that the degree of decomposition limited their ability to establish a definitive cause of cause or manner of death. Shit Because of this, investigators have not determined whether Decker died shortly after the murders in early June or sometime later that summer, or.

25:51 Where's bones, where's temperance, Brennan, Let's get her in here out. It's tough because sometimes the condition of remains, like we just there's just questions we're not going to be able to answer. What we do know is that the US Forest Service closed the entire Enchantments and Ice School Creek area beginning initially Thursday, June fifth. The closure was scheduled to extend to June eighteenth, prohibiting public access both to vehicles and pedestrian foot traffic on trails and roads in the area. By Saturday, June seventh, over five hundred tips had poured into the Shelane County Sheriff's office from the public as more than one hundred law enforcement workers continued the search for Travis Decker. However, by June eighth, it was determined no credible threat could be confirmed in the area, and the closure order was rescinded before federal authorities took over the search the following day, Monday night. So they had intended to close down this area of the National Park for you know, two weeks essentially, and within not even like over the weekend, it was closed.

27:13 Wow, that seems insane to me. There was a murder. Well, and here's the thing is, it's you know, it's a massive area, and they had already been searching for several days at the point that they decided to close it. And once they were able to determine that they're not coming across anything that. Looks like active trails of Travis. I think they were determining, Okay, we don't have to necessarily be super concerned about him still being in the area. And causing harm to someone else. So here's my question, because I came across this as sort of an interesting little fact about the search, and kind of some of those specifics, it really kind of got my wheels turning. Is it more likely that Travis Decker was to ceased the entire time that authorities had been searching that area, or that he evaded them long enough to either remain in the area undetected, or because it was only closed to public access for such a short time. Is it possible that he even returned once public access was restored.

28:26 Yeah, I could see it going any of those ways. Like, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's honestly pretty much impossible to say for now. I think that remains one of the many unanswered questions in the case. It's got it so hard to tell too. I was thinking about like the tips, like, mm, yeah, knows if those people actually you know, because so many people look like other people. Yeah, And I will say that I I don't know that I would characterize him as someone that like, oh, you'd know him if you saw him, you know what I mean. Like there's some people that have like very distinctive, you know, facial features or you know, like a very prominent like tattoo.

29:13 He did have tattoos, but. I don't know that anybody would necessarily like recognize them at a glance. I don't think he's really one of those guys. I will say, some of the various photos that I came across of him over the years, I thought, Wow, this is interesting because this almost doesn't even look like the same person. Hmmm. So to me, I'm thinking, Oh, I guess I wonder what picture. Yeah, they're matching too, that really matters too. Yeah. The murders of the Decker sisters became one of the most widely followed criminal cases in Washington. State that year.

29:54 Literally this year, the case unfolded across Shelan count the Winnatchie Valley, and eventually the High Country Forest Regions south of Levenworth, which really ruins the cute Christmasy, like seriously Bavarian village vibe of Levenworth for me, if you could not, I guess this does kind of have in a way like if if you have that association association with Levenworth, it does kind of have a Christmas y vibe. Which you should because we've talked about during the Christmas yeah season. Crampis the case unfolded across Shelane County, the Winnachie Valley, and eventually the High Country Forest regions south of Levenworth. Where a month's long manhunt came to dominate the regional news cycle. But like literally just our regional news cycle.

30:50 I just there are so many cases where I come across articles from like People magazine or you know, Jessese, like national publications, and there's just not really that. I think so many cases deserve more attention. And it's really hard, it's really hard, but to look at to look at a picture of these three little girls, all under the age of ten, and say there's not enough intrigue in your murder case for people to care for more than you know, a couple of months, and only regionally. Just I don't, yeah that just you know, and I know, like we're all human and we're just we're just following our little monkey brains and the dopamine.

31:46 And but it just really made me sad. Confirmation of Decker's death effectively ended the active criminal proceedings because I mean. Yeah, we're already talked about. It's not mysterious. It was up him, right, Well, like. What you're going to pursue charges against a dead guy? I mean, convict him posthumously? I don't very hollow. Shelan County officials described the case as among the most disturbing acts of violence the region had ever confronted. Although the killings themselves are considered solved, numerous questions remain unanswered, most prominently the exact motive for the murders and the precise circumstances of Decker's own death. While the manhunt phase has closed, portions of the investigative record remain open. Crime scene analysis has continued, and agencies have kept certain files active pending any further developments or recovered evidence.

32:48 To date, no co. Suspects have been identified, and no evidence has been publicly disclosed, suggesting that any other party assisted Decker. Peyton, Evelyn, and Olivia were widely described as bright, warm, and deeply loved members of their community, local schools, neighbors, friends, and extended family participated in vigils, memorials, and community support efforts. A memorial service for the three sisters was held on June twentieth, twenty twenty five. The girl's mother, Whitney, spoke about their individual personalities, their routines, and her hopes for their futures, offering a portrait of children who were expressive, affectionate, and enthusiastic about school and family.

33:41 Life. This memorial became a central moment of shared grief in the Wanagee and loven Worth communities. Multiple community fundraisers and support networks began raising funds in the aftermath, including a GoFundMe campaign, actually multiple intended to the mother and other surviving relatives, because funeral services are very expensive. Just to be able to lay all three of your tiny, precious baby daughters to rest. The expense of that, I mean, talk about rubbing salt in a wound. Yeah, I'm glad that she got help with that, because I cannot even imagine.

34:31 The case of the Decker sisters is one that leaves behind more sorrow than certainty. Although the core facts are tragically established the girl's deaths, the evidence implicating their father, and the later confirmation of his own death in the wilderness, the deeper questions about motive, mental decline, and timeline remain unresolved. In many ways, what lingers is not just the horror of the crimemates self, but the uncomfortable acknowledgment of all the moments where systems meant to protect vulnerable children proved insufficient. As the community continues to grieve, Peyton, Evelyn and Olivia.

35:14 Their story stands as a solemn reminder of the gaps that still exist in child safety protocols, mental health intervention, and crisis response. What survives now are the memories carried by their mother, their extended family, and the Wenatchie and Love and Worth communities who mourned them. The hope, expressed quietly in vigils, fundraisers, and shared grief, is that their lives and the heartbreaking failures that preceded their deaths will push policy awareness and accountability forward in ways that prevent another tragedy like this from unfolding. Which I really hope that's the case, But it feels really hollow to say that right now, because this is something that has happened, you know, so many years.

36:08 After the Powell kits. So what does it take? You know, it's not that any. Of these cases that we talk about that we expect like, oh this one we now, we've salved it. Now no more now, no more children die, right, But it's like, what does it take for a system to have like some form of like fucking muscle memory. Like it feels like we're very much in the exact same place. Well, do you want to do some terror about it. Yeah, maybe we'll get a little bit of a lighter card. I don't know, maybe we'll see I like to get the hopeful cards, you know. Yeah, I'm gonna pull up the pictures too, so I can show you. It's hard to imagine three more adorable children and the entire world.

36:56 I was just thinking, like, I don't fuck me up. I don't want to see the pictures. Actually, yeah, well I did, and you do have to. I mean, okay, I do want to see them. Kaitlyn is at our new tarot table. We've got new lighting on it looks amazing. Her shuffling is divine. The quote on our letter board here is December is whatever. This is almost over. Oh King of Cups in reverse? Oh, Night of Cups in Reverse? My bad, I cannot read.

37:40 They both start with K. It's fine. Is that one the dolphin? I think they look like orchest me, but I think Dolph. Yeah. I think we've had this debate before. Okay, we've had this card a few times. Yeah, okay, let's see. Yeah, okay, So are keywords for the Night of Cups are communication, romance, travel, idealism, and flirtatiousness. Interesting, Yeah, we did get him reverse. Yeah, Okay. When the Night of Cups appears reversed, he may represent insecurity in decision, lack of commitment, and immaturity, especially in relationships.

38:27 Sometimes he represents broken promises or deceit or an offer that's not based in reality. If he stands for an actual person, he's someone to avoid. He's not what he seems. He may not even know himself who he is. Even if his intentions are good, he can't fulfill them. Damn dude. That part specifically is really chilling because we talked about his PTSD and like, what did that do to like rewire his brain, you know, to where he wanted to murder his children? Yeah, Like, I'm sure he didn't start out that way, like wanting to do that.

39:09 You know, I can't imagine. I mean, god, I would hope not. Okay, I'm going to read the extra excerpts and then I'll do the interpretation. The Night of Cups is the Night of the Grail legend. The story of the Grail search is an allegory for seeking truth, beauty, purpose and salvation in life. The Night on a White Horse. Some decks, including the writer Waite Smith and the Thoth Tarot Show, The Night of Cups, riding a white horse, a romantic depiction of love, the fairytale night on a white charger, come to carry you away to a fantasy land.

39:50 So it kind of makes sense this is in reverse. Huh. That makes me think of just kind of like his children, like what he told them that day, Like I like what they thought, you know, and we're gonna have a good day with dad, you know. Yeah, that's so sad. Uh. The extra excerpt, you said something about searching, like there was this huge search for him, Like yeah, he was the holy Grail they were searching for, you know, God. Yeah. In a reading about money, this card warns get out while you can. Someone maybe trying to swindle you, or an investment isn't sound a financial advisor maybe untrustworthy, or an offer is too good to be true. Well, I mean considering like just the sheer instability and so many aspects of his life. I feel like not being able to hold down a job and like.

40:45 Yeah, we have kids with someone though you can't really escape that, like you don't really have that option. Yeah, so you get their custody completely taken away. But even then, like, yeah, there's still a part of your life forever. If the reading is about your job, the reverse night can show dishonesty, deviousness, or incompetence, either on your part or that of an employer or colleague. A project may not get off the ground. If you're considering a job change, this card advises against it. In a reading about love, the night reverse indicates secrets and lies. In a relationship, a partner isn't being open or is conflicted about his or her feelings. Commitment isn't an option. This card may also say you're living in a fantasy world, stop dreaming and get real. I mean, just the sheer, I don't know, the repetitiveness of like get out, stay away, avoid.

41:48 Yeah, it's like very clear. Yeah, but like I said, like there's really nothing you can do. She did what she could do. Yeah, they were separated, they had custody arrangements. Like she did the most that she could do, so yeah, and unfortunately, like the rest of the safety was kind of up to the. Other parent, right, Yeah, and to whatever systems are in place, And you can only count on that. So much obviously. Yeah. Okay, okay, so we're not reading the interpretation in the little Book, but I did want to look up and see it is a Pacific white sided dolphin, a dulphin. It's a dolphin. Excellent. I was kind of skimming the poem and it talks about like water and like vast expanse of things, and it reminded me of like him in the in the woods, possibly like being like a survivalist. Yeah, type of vibe. I think it's the vast expanse. Yeah. I think that's what does it.

42:53 It's like kind of a similar visual even though it's like a different. Like water, but like the water in the forest honestly are so similar to me because it's like an ocean of trees. Yeah, a tree ocean. Yeah, are ocean. Yeah. I was gonna say I wish he was a little more dolphin like, but then I'm like, wait, aren't dolphins like Actually people say they're kind of aggressive, so like maybe it doesn't me. It's like you think that they're I think, no way, but they're kind of not. I think that's why they picked the dolphins for that illustration. I was just thinking that because like the what what did it say? Like the unrealistic expectations, like you think you're gonna go play with a sweet dolphin and it'll bite your face off. Yeah, there is something, and I'm going to go back to it.

43:48 There's technically two things that I remembered kind of from the interpretation on the card. And this is like in the actual narrative about the description of the physical card itself. Oh okay, it says, if this night represents an actual person, blah blah blah blah blah. And the first half is I think things that like we want to associate with dolphins. It says he's probably a young man with a poetic, imaginative, and affectionate nature, and we're like, yes, yeah, dolphins, majestic, affectionate. Oh so you know, yeah, And it says, but he might not be dependable. And then this part, this is what it is. Okay, he's not what he seems. He may not even know himself who he is. Even if his intentions are good, he can't fulfill them.

44:41 Yeah, that's because I feel like. I've heard some sneaky stories about dolphins. Should do a dolphin episode. I mean, if I can find something about dolphin crimes, I mean, we have Pacific Northwest dolphins, so it'll it'll connect to. Reason surely there's a dolphin out there committing crimes. Yeah, I think so. I think so hopefully it's not murdering its children. Yeh God, I know, can we all just agree to not ever do that again? Like that would be so great? Is that that hard? Yeah? I mean we know everyone listening would never do that. Ever.

45:23 I know. Here's the thing. I just, as someone who is intentionally child free, I cannot fathom. It goes against every biological impulse that we are wired with, and it's truly, it's baffling and maddening. It is, though, But then I think about, like, this isn't not not like an ex I'm not about to make like an expense. Where are we going? Not like that? But I think about like postpartum depression, and then the mothers who go through that, who like want to murder their children, and some of them actually do. Yeah, Like obviously there's some chemical thing going around in the brain.

46:11 And I think I think with like PTSD or like very severe cases of depression, whether it's you know, postpartum or whatever the case may be, it's like we understand like the chemical mechanism, I guess, is what I would say. But yeah, you can't. You still can't really wrap your head around it, if that makes sense, And that's kind of I'm like, listen, I don't even want. Kids, but like the idea. Of I cannot fas it does not compute no error four or. Four, which which is like, if you're having those thoughts and feelings, you need to be be like responsible and go seek help and hopefully the people around you, you know, that.

46:58 Help support you in that keeps everybody safe. Yeah, And I feel like, you know, we talked about like men. I'm not trying to say obviously, what's the other word. Often often like men oftentimes don't want to go to someone and talk about their feelings, and so it's a lot harder. Yeah, I mean, I do think there's a lot of there's still a lot of stigma in maybe not every community, but I think a lot of communities, you know, whether it's national origin, whether it's like you know, other types of specific community. I think gender plays a really big role. In military community.

47:39 Yeah, there's so many different types or groups of people that like experience the stigma around mental health in really significant ways, and it's detrimental. Man, at a certain point, you just like kind of run out of words to say, and you just kind. Of it's like these people even know like what's going on that they don't actually want to do this. It's just something wrong that I don't know. It's gets wild, like think about think about I always think about myself in that position, Like what if there's a certain one day where I just snap and I want to murder everyone, But like, you know, that's not me. Everyone else knows that's not me. But like what if something just goes wrong up there? It's yeah, very scary, And those are intrusive thoughts that I have.

48:26 Yeah, yeah, no, but I mean situations like this, it can make you kind of fearful of, Like even if not for yourself, You're like, what if you know someone you know? Like the idea of like this happening just really it just sets your mind off in so many different directions, and none of. Them are good. Yeah, it's sad. It's very sad. And I hope that their mother and the rest of their surviving family is just I really hope they are just receiving. An overwhelming amount. Of you know, just an outreaching outpouring of support from all of their different communities and the parallels.

49:12 To the Powell case. That was like, oh my god, I can't believe I'm going to talk about something that's like it's so similar in so many ways. Like immediately again, I was like, oh my god, Okay, we're. Not talking about anything where there's a child within five hundred miles for like a while after this, except I'm probably lying. We'll see. But you know, in the case of Susan Powell, it's like the loss that her family felt losing her is just compounded by the loss of the children. And in this case, it's like, you know, for Whitney, the loss of her three kids is compounded by the fact that now she has to live with that forever. Just just awful.

49:57 I'm just making a sad face now because I can't, I know, because because I can't, because my face doesn't know how to make other faces. Now, are we done with whatever this is? Now? I know, I'm so I'm sorry. Yes, I think it's time to say goodbye to the people. And you did show me their picture and there were some sweetest little baby angels I ever did see, you know, with their little space bunds. My God, have creepy day. We'll see you next Thursday, because we do this on Thursdays. Now we do what did you? Okay? Bye? Have you heard?

50:40 Is that a song or day? I just make that up. There's got to be a song that goes. Have you heard the news? Have you heard the news? I have? I have? Indeed, Okay, I'm stopping now. I didn't like the candle. Do you have a lighter? I mean, I have like two things of matches here. It's not something we'd play around with. But I'm not are we sure we want Cassie to play around with them? I mean, I've never been less sure about anything in my life, but here we are. Oh that's hardly a success story. I broke it, but it also lit, and then I dropped it. I think that lives in there now. I dropped it again. Why is this so hard? Okay, we're not going to get scared and drop the light? The lighter? What is it?

51:34 Just be calm, you know, I did it. Oh my god, this was a lesson. Just be calm, y'all, and then you get stuff done. It's a miracle. I guess I'm embarrassed.