Dec. 25, 2025

Derrick Engebretsen: The Nightmare Before Christmas

Derrick Engebretsen: The Nightmare Before Christmas
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On December 5, 1998, eight-year-old Derrick Joe Engebretsen vanished from the snowy slopes of Pelican Butte near Klamath Falls, Oregon. His heart-breaking disappearance took place while cutting a Christmas tree with his father and grandfather, shaking the surrounding community.

Derrick’s footprints led into the forest… and then simply stopped. No struggle. No trail. No remains. Despite massive search efforts involving local deputies, state police, search-and-rescue teams, dogs, helicopters, and decades of follow-up investigations, Derrick has never been found.

In this episode, we walk through the timeline of Derrick’s disappearance, the eerie details and the baffling, even divisive theories. More than 25 years later, Pelican Butte still holds its secrets—and Derrick’s absence remains one of the Pacific Northwest’s most unsettling unsolved mysteries.

Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Spreaker, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts.

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Meanwhile, news of Derek's disappearance spread through Klamath County, heightening

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concern amongst locals. Rumors bubbled up in grocery store aisles

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and school hallways, anything.

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From mountain lions to hidden mines.

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To strangers lurking in the trees. Their original kind of working,

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very early on in the disappearance was sort of that,

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you know, he just maybe had kind of wandered off,

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he got a little disoriented. At this point, you're almost

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hoping that one of the other theories is what's taken place,

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because maybe there's still a chance he's alive.

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Hi, Cassie, Hi, Caitlin. Hi. Creepy people. Hello, pepe people,

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Peep pee peep people in the Pacific Northwest.

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This is PNW hans and homicides, where we chat about

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true crime, the paranormal and all things related to trees.

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Oh yeah, yeah, because we're in the tree.

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Hugging Pacific North Wales. Yep, lots of trees with a PNW.

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If you're nasty, if you're there, nasty. I tried to

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sneak it in there real quick.

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And yeah, she tried to word vomit that out and

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it did not work out for her.

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I'm drinking beer. Okay, no, you guys can't see me

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if you're not watching the video. But I'm drinking a

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Laurel Laurel Hurst or Laurel Wood, Laurel Wood, not Laurel Hurst,

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but clothes. And it's called tree Hugger Porter and it's

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got our license plate on it, so cute. I kind

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of like want this license plate, but I assume it's taken. Probably.

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I mean, I have this license plate. I want one

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that says you want hug tr e H g R.

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You should look into that. Okay, so I'm going to

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jump in to it. Oh hey, wait what? We also

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do a tarot reading at the end of every episode

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for a little deeper insight into our tree topics. We

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forget intriguing topics treguing.

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You know what, I said that in my last episode,

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and I don't I don't think I hit it quite

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quite right, because neither one of us said anything about it.

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You didn't giggle. I didn't giggle at my own joke,

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and I just like.

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Which I usually do, I was gonna say, you probably

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like you didn't hit the salabbles well, I said.

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I listened back to it, and I was like this

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article was intriguing. Like I said, intriguing, it didn't land

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for either of us.

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Could have could have just been that day. I hope

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it landed for all of you out there because it

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was hilarious. She's like, I'm not above recycling my own material.

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Right, and I will if I miss telling you that

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I made a joke, I will come back on another episode.

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Make sure you know that I made a joke. It's

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important to us, not the first time. I love that.

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Okay, well, there's not that many jokes about this one.

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My working title includes The Nightmare before Christmas, and I'm

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not reading you a review of the Tim Burton film.

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I was hoping for that. I know that's a different podcast. Well,

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you said your Christmas themed episode, so I thought it

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would be happy.

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Yeah, true crime around the holidays is it can be

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a theme. I don't know that happy is the word

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I would use. I think you misunderstood the assignment, did I? No,

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we can't always be happy and fun on Christmas. We

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have we have serious true crime topics to talk about.

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It's true.

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It's true. Apologies all right now, I'm going to get

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into it. Ok Okay, I'm gonna hug my tree beer. Yeah,

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she needs a kozy cover up the art. That's true.

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That's true. Also, your hands get cold. I do have

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koozies though. I use that koozi you got me all

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the time, Like I keep it at Britney's because that's

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where I drink my beer and I use it every

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single time I'm there.

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What can I say? Search and rescue teams will tell

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you the same thing. Fresh snow is honest. Everything is recorded,

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every step, every pause, every wrong turn. On December fifth,

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nineteen ninety eight, eight year old Derek Inga Bretson walked

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into the Oregon Woods in rural Klamath County with his

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family to cut a Christmas tree and vanished.

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No, during the happiest time of the year. Yeah, happiest

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activity you cut tree farms? You know, Wait, were they

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I was gonna say, were they cutting out a U

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cut place or was it like one where you like

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in the woods? Were you actually like you pay like

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five dollars for a license or something and you go

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and get a tree from the woods.

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It's not like I don't know that people are paying

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for license. I thought you had to get like a

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license to go cut a tree from the woods. Yeah, no,

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you're supposed to do, Okay.

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I don't know if they did or didn't.

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I'm just saying I feel like in a lot of

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rural arts of Oregon and a lot of other states

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for that matter, people.

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Are just like, I'm cutting down a tree. I'm paying

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for no license. I didn't know that. Yeah, I just

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assumed everyone followed the law.

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I would just be out there cutting down trees all

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willing nilly, unlicensed.

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So they were like looking for those wild looking trees

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like the unkempt. Uh. Yeah, maybe because like they're not

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going to be trimmed in the forest, you know, Yeah,

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they're definally not going to be trimmed.

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I don't know if that was like an aesthetic that

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they were seeking or I feel like, if you if

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that's where you live, they just needed a tree, You're like,

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I'm getting a Christmas tree.

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Yeah.

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That day was icy, even by Klamath County standards. Temperatures

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hovered around twenty degrees fahrenheit, with snowpack along the banks

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and slopes of Pelican Butte already creeping several inches deep

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from earlier storms.

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So it doesn't sound like a great time to go

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get a Christmas tree.

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I mean, I think in some places we're just like

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that up in the gets yep, Okay, yeah. I remember

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driving down to uh Klamath Lake at one point, and

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I think it was early November, maybe late October, and

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it started snowing when I was about forty five minutes

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out from my destination, and I was like, Okay.

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I guess that makes sense. Are they at like a

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higher They're at a high elevation.

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It's a high elevation in certain parts, in certain parts

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in this part.

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Yes, this is yeah. They're up in the mountains.

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Snow muffled, sound, blanketed, the high desert, evergreens uncoded, the

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rugged terrain along Pelican Butte, the landscape beautiful and brutal

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in equal measure. Derek's footprints led through the snow and

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then stopped, not scattered, not disturbed, just gone.

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Like Bigfoot took him or something. It's a fair question.

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Snow doesn't forget, but on that mountain it kept a secret.

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I've done something really cruel.

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Two kid cases in a row previous to this, and

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this is a third, which is I listen, gone to

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my head. I could not have guessed that at the

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happiest time of the year. I would have picked to

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do three motherfucking cases.

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That are kids, back to back to back to back

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to back. It feels like it's actually been more than three.

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What's going on with you?

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The outing to fetch their Christmas tree was a tradition

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for this family. Derek had accompanied his father, Robert Bob

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inga Breton, and his grandfather Robert Sr.

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On similar outings before. Is Bob what he goes by? Her?

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Is his name Robert Bob? No? I think he goes

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by Bob? Okay? Yeah, just checking, Yeah, Robert Bob. Just

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to be sure. You never know.

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Yeah, Year after year, families partake in countless holiday traditions.

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They're supposed to be safe, familiar. Which should have been

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a memory, turned into a nightmare one that has never ended.

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Derek lived with his family in Bonanza.

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Bonanza, Bananza. I know, it sounds so fun. I didn't

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even know that was a place.

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It is in a rural, working class community, about twenty

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five miles east of Klamath Falls.

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That's probably why I've never heard of it. Yeah, I

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was gonna say, is there east of cold? If you're

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that far down south? Most of us are like, isn't

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that California?

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This high desert area, characterized by vast stretches of open

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land and frigid winters, could either feel peaceful or foreboding.

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Depending on the day.

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Derek loved the outdoors and was used to being outside

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in the elements. His father took him hunting regularly, fishing,

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and just exploring the woods. His level of comfort in

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Organ's wilderness at such a young age is something many

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have pointed to as part of what makes this case

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so baffling.

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That is really interesting because that's I don't know if

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you listen to my tree episode yet, to the part

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with my dad and ground not the editor, No, I

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haven't yet. It's very interesting because I talked about how

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I used to wander around in the forest and find

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my way back all on my own, and like me

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who doesn't know directions, like has no sense of but

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just your comfortability, I think, and I feel like if

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you're even experienced like that, that's even more yeah proof,

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like you could just find your way back right right

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or just like a sense.

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I feel like some of those things, like those activities outdoors,

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it's in so many different ways it helps you preserve,

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Like the self preservation instinct and like the right things

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to do.

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They're sort of imparted on you. Yeah.

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That being said, he's a very young child. So after

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spending much of the late morning driving forest roads and

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stopping periodically in the snow, the group parked along a

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US forest road to continue scouting for a tree. Derek

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wandered slightly ahead while his father placed several freshly cut

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branches into their pickup.

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Okay, I thought you were saying, placed them on the ground,

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like so they could find their way back, like a

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little breadcrumb.

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Right, Yeah, very handsome and gretel. No, why was he

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taking branches? I'm sure they were planning to do some

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sort of like garland or something like that.

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Yeah, reads some things.

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It was during one of these seemingly ordinary and fleeting moments,

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just the slightest lapse of attention, the kind that happens

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in a heartbeat, that Derek slipped out of sight. Bob

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later told investigators he had turned away briefly, his attention

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turned to the task at hand, and when he looked back,

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Derek was gone.

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So strange.

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Yes, it's such an isolated place at that time of year.

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He called out, expecting to hear the boy answer from

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behind a tree or over a short ridge, But there

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was nothing, no voice, no movement, no crackling footsteps on snow,

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just cold, heavy quiet.

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So like if someone had taken him and ran away, right,

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you would hear if he was running.

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Earth would feel as though that might be audible.

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Yeah.

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Within minutes, Derek's father and grandfather began scouring the immediate area.

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Tracks were visible, small prints and the snow leading away

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from the road toward dense trees. They followed them and

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soon encountered what would become one of the most haunting

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images in the case, a final, clearly defined footprint that

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abruptly ended near a wooded drainage area. There were no

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signs of a struggle, no disturbance, and the snow just

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a sudden stop, as if the boy had vanished mid stride.

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What did he like fall into another dimension? I mean, honestly,

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anything feels possible in this case. It's so weird, it's

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very strange, And there are a number of theories.

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We'll definitely get to them, but I'm sure there are Yeah,

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I'm sure there's wild ones. Yeah, like they're worse than

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my bigfoot theory.

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Yeah, that oddly did not make the more popular theory list.

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The reason I said that really quickly before I forget,

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I heard a story about Bigfoot and it was like,

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you know Bigfoot episode. I think it was a podcast,

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and they talked about someone just disappearing from the woods.

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Yes, no, I mean I've I've definitely heard stories like that,

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and for whatever reason, you know, the individual circumstances of

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the story, people thought, Okay, this, this feels like squatch.

233
00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.200
Right, Like what other explanation would there be?

234
00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:06.559
And with each of the more popular theories, there are

235
00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:11.120
things that like fit, and then none of them feels

236
00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:16.720
quite adequate, which I think is probably the most frustrating part.

237
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:21.600
I think I know where I land in terms of

238
00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:25.320
the popular theories, but I'm definitely gonna be curious what

239
00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:30.399
you think she's like. I'm squatch through and through squatch watch.

240
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:35.720
By late afternoon, the Klamath County Sheriff's Office launched a response,

241
00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:41.600
and search and rescue teams began mobilizing. Darkness approached quickly,

242
00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.480
with temperatures dipping into the teams as more snow fell

243
00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:51.960
over the shadowed woods, the combination of conditions creating a

244
00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:58.279
terrifying scenario. If Derek was out there alone, hypothermia would

245
00:15:58.320 --> 00:15:59.559
set in quickly.

246
00:15:59.759 --> 00:15:59.919
Yeah.

247
00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:04.600
For the first several hours, the prevailing belief was simple

248
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:10.480
and hopeful. Derek had wandered off, become disoriented, and was

249
00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:15.720
sheltering somewhere nearby. Over the next forty eight hours, search

250
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:20.639
efforts expanded to include hundreds of searchers and volunteers.

251
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.080
WOW teams combed.

252
00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:29.720
The area using helicopters, snowopiles, dogs, and infrared equipment.

253
00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:32.279
They have to find him, right.

254
00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:37.279
Yeah, I mean it's it's always critical in the first

255
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:40.240
forty eight That's why they named the show.

256
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:44.480
That, especially in these fucking conditions with those elements. I'm

257
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.039
freezing right now. Yes, I know you need to put

258
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:51.399
your sweater on. It's got cold. I know I have chills.

259
00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:55.000
I have chills, and you know me, I run hot.

260
00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:59.039
But ya talking about the cold like this though. It

261
00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:02.279
just makes sure you want to put on your Santas letter.

262
00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:03.639
It sure does.

263
00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:11.119
They uncovered only a handful of ambiguous clues. There was

264
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.680
a small disturbance scraped into a snow bank, possibly where

265
00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:20.440
a child had tried to shelter. There were reports of

266
00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:24.359
the name Derek, or perhaps even just the letter D

267
00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:32.680
having been marked into the snow on a log or embankment. What, Yeah,

268
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:33.759
the account's buried.

269
00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:37.519
It's very it's very hard to tell a loggy embankment.

270
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.960
I mean they say, like maybe on a log, maybe

271
00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:44.920
somewhere in the snow of the embankment.

272
00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:49.240
It's it's unclear, it's murky. How is there not like

273
00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.599
a picture of it. No, it's not evidence.

274
00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.640
Just because it's evidence doesn't mean it's publicly available. In fact,

275
00:17:57.200 --> 00:17:59.440
a lot of evidences never populate.

276
00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:04.160
Okay, they just didn't clarify that part, because Okay, I'm

277
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.759
always thinking if you know something like yeah, how did

278
00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:07.400
they not know?

279
00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:11.480
Like yeah, they're like, oh wait, you're like listen, all

280
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.319
credit to you, but like how did they not Yeah,

281
00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:18.079
okay I know. No, No, like you really have like

282
00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:20.519
certain things you're like no, no, no, I really want

283
00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:24.359
to drill down, like huh right, No, it's like it's

284
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:26.559
a good thing to be, Like, I'm going to think

285
00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:28.160
about this critically, Like.

286
00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.839
But they keep certain things secret sometimes in case they yeah,

287
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:33.880
or just like some details.

288
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:38.920
It may not even be that it's like secrecy specifically

289
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.640
about the investigation, but it may just be that like

290
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.079
there's a lot of stuff that they're just not releasing

291
00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:49.640
to the public because, first of all, it's like a

292
00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:53.119
massive undertaking for them to do that, because they have

293
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.440
to come through what they do know about the case.

294
00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.519
They have to confirm is this something we want to

295
00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:03.440
make publicly available, And they have to figure out ways

296
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:09.400
to transmit whatever information, you know, images, whatever that is,

297
00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:13.279
whatever that looks like interesting And why would they do

298
00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:16.599
that if they don't need to? But I want to know,

299
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.839
I exactly, Yeah, because I want to know. And that's why,

300
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:22.640
because if he was out there writing his name on things,

301
00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:23.640
that breaks my heart.

302
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:24.599
Yeah.

303
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:29.920
A snowplow driver later reported a possible sighting of a

304
00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:34.880
small figure near the roadway. And that is about all

305
00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:40.359
there is to that thread. So okay, could have been anything, Yep,

306
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.279
could have been something, could have been nothing, could have

307
00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:46.119
been any number of things in between.

308
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.960
It could have been a baby bigfoot. I'm very upset

309
00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:53.160
right now. She's like, I'm really holding onto the bigfoot thing.

310
00:19:53.279 --> 00:20:00.839
I'm just gonna what. Searchers didn't find proved us as haunting.

311
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:07.359
No additional footprints beyond the original set. The combination of

312
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:15.319
faint signs and stark absences painted an unsettling picture evidence

313
00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.599
that a child had been there, followed by nothing at all.

314
00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:24.160
Like you said, it's like a portal opened up. I

315
00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.240
can't even pretend to sherlock.

316
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:33.680
How that happened? That? Yeah? Like, where did there?

317
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:39.559
That is the crux of this case. I feel like

318
00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:45.960
one of one of As hours and eventually days passed,

319
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:51.799
the abrupt end of Derek's tracks raised growing concern among

320
00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:57.200
investigators that the explanation might be more complicated than a

321
00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:02.079
child simply lost in the woods. Tracks don't just disappear

322
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:07.640
in fresh snow, at least not without help. As the

323
00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:12.359
search for eight year old Derek Ingebretsen stretched into its

324
00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:17.079
second and third days, it ballooned into a massive operation

325
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:21.839
rarely seen in Klamath County. What began as a missing

326
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:27.599
child search rapidly expanded into a multi agency response involving

327
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:33.519
local deputies, the Oregon State Police, US Forest Service officers,

328
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:40.880
volunteer search and rescue groups, experienced trackers, mountain teams, aircrews,

329
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.880
and dozens of local residents determined to bring Derek home.

330
00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:52.400
Amidst the punishing terrain, the search continued, as did speculation

331
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.000
about the unsettling possibilities.

332
00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:01.039
I can't imagine what kind of immediate theories there were.

333
00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:03.480
I mean, I can't imagine. That's what I meant to say.

334
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:04.680
I can't imagine.

335
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.920
I think some of them are Some of them are

336
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:14.599
surprising because because you want to thay I, you know,

337
00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:17.160
maybe I just don't think very much of humans.

338
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:18.440
I don't.

339
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.880
Yeah, maybe that's the part that surprising is I'm like, oh, no,

340
00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:27.960
I figured somebody would. Most of them are not necessarily

341
00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:33.319
problematic as a theory. I think it's all about how

342
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.079
we speak about these things, how we approached the topic.

343
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:43.319
Pelican Butte's terrain is riddled with small creeks, drainage ditches,

344
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:48.519
and deep pockets of concealed space created by fallen timber

345
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.680
or undercut snow banks. As the search of the treacherous

346
00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:58.680
terrain wore on, several chilling prospects were explored. Did Derek

347
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:04.000
fall into a part actually frozen creek or perhaps slipped

348
00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:08.599
into a hidden pocket of snow. Another theory that was

349
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:11.960
kind of floated was that maybe he slipped into like

350
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:19.200
a cravasse of sorts, like maybe some involuntary splunking, which

351
00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:22.160
is the most horrifying.

352
00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:24.680
When you see a hole though, like his Dad was

353
00:23:24.759 --> 00:23:25.680
right behind him.

354
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:30.480
Right, So these are things that again it's like unless

355
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:34.119
the snow le like yeah, I mean it's it's confounding.

356
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.680
But then then it's after like they would have did

357
00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:39.640
they not look at when this? Does the snow ever

358
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.079
melt or is it always constantly snow does melt in

359
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:47.000
the smelt? So they would find You're like.

360
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:50.640
Your head, your head is in the right place, You're

361
00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:51.960
like ten steps ahead.

362
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.400
I'm trying. Yeah, no, you're like, I'm gonna solve it.

363
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.759
I'm gonna solve it. I know Caitlin, I know she

364
00:23:57.839 --> 00:23:59.799
knows all the details and be.

365
00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:05.119
Put, No, I would never know who, Like, how could

366
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:07.799
I ever make that like about me?

367
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.839
I would be so jealous.

368
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:14.359
But yeah, a fall into icy water could explain the

369
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:17.480
sudden end of the footprints.

370
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:20.359
Was there water right there?

371
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.920
Yeah, there are some creeks and like drainage ditches and things.

372
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:26.880
So I mean it's it's a possibility.

373
00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:30.680
I feel like that of the theories, I feel like

374
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.319
that seems like slightly more remote. I think there are

375
00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:40.240
a lot of other possibilities related to the topography.

376
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:41.839
I need to see the scene.

377
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:47.200
Yeah, I think there are other possibilities that seem potentially

378
00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:53.359
like maybe more viable, but but thorough searches of creeks

379
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:57.839
and ravines turned up no evidence to support this scenario.

380
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:02.920
If Derek had fallen into water or a cravose of

381
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.400
some kind, it was believed there would be more physical

382
00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:12.240
evidence because I think even if you start slipping into

383
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:16.680
water or like down into a hole, there's like some

384
00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:21.160
sort of kind of it's almost like a biological imperative

385
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:24.400
really that like you're gonna be thrashing and you're gonna

386
00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.359
be like grabbing onto anything you can to try to

387
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:28.079
What if.

388
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:29.559
Something like fell on his head.

389
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:33.640
I mean, there's so many things that could happen in

390
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:36.039
a forest to a tiny child.

391
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:39.200
That's really scary. She and I were probably the same height.

392
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:41.799
Don't go into the forest, Caitlin.

393
00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:50.759
But what about the possibility of a stranger abduction, squatch

394
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:54.559
or not. That would be so weird, like for someone

395
00:25:54.599 --> 00:26:00.839
to just it would be Following this came one of

396
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:06.920
the most controversial and chilling theories. The roadway running past

397
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:12.279
Helicompute was accessible enough for a passing vehicle. It's possible

398
00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:17.319
that if someone saw Derek alone, even briefly, the child

399
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:21.519
could have been snatched quickly with no footprints left behind.

400
00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:25.160
How would there be no footprints from the other person.

401
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.920
So I'm assuming because again there's only so much that

402
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:34.279
we can know about the specific conditions of that day.

403
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:41.319
But they were loading trees and branches into their truck,

404
00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.480
so that was on the side of the road, presumably

405
00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:52.079
if Derek was not quite on the road but very nearby,

406
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:56.759
and maybe they didn't notice somehow another passing vehicle because

407
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:00.480
they were just beyond like in the trees or like

408
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.039
on the other side of the vehicle, like whatever that

409
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.119
looks like they.

410
00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:07.880
Could presumably like literally pick this.

411
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:11.000
Kid up, like like the hood of his jacket and

412
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:13.440
just yank him literally out of the snow.

413
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:18.400
Possibly or you don't have eyes on the case very

414
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:25.680
few seconds footprints though, like I I guess.

415
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:28.160
I'm not saying it makes perfect sense and that we

416
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:30.640
don't like I feel like I need a three D model.

417
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:36.880
What made this theory especially disturbing is that aligned with

418
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:42.640
several unresolved elements of the case, the reported but unconfirmed

419
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:49.359
snowplow drivers sighting, the abrupt end of tracks, the lack

420
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:54.000
of a confirmed scent. There was no confirmed scent trail

421
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:57.839
because they did bring in dogs, as well as the

422
00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:03.200
possibility that Derek might have tried to just return to

423
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:08.640
the road because that's where their vehicle was. Investigators never

424
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:15.920
ruled out abduction. In fact, some detectives privately considered the theory,

425
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.759
although they lacked concrete evidence to go public with it.

426
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:25.440
So I think that's kind of important because I feel like,

427
00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:30.039
where they don't necessarily publicly release an official theory of

428
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:34.839
a crime, people kind of are left to speculate. Oh, yeah,

429
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.039
they are, and people can be focusing on the case

430
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:43.440
based on a completely different theory that maybe isn't helpful

431
00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:47.680
to the investigation as it's unfolding.

432
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:52.559
I'm worried about the family, yeah, Like what kind of

433
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:58.680
theory is about that? Yep, And you're right to be concerned. Meanwhile,

434
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:03.799
news of Derek's disappearance spread through Klamath County, heightening concern

435
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:09.200
amongst locals. Rumors bubbled up in grocery store aisles and

436
00:29:09.319 --> 00:29:12.079
school hallways, anything from.

437
00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:17.599
Mountain lions to hidden minds to strangers lurking in the trees.

438
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:24.440
As hours turned into days, hope began to dim, but

439
00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:28.720
the investigation was still in the early days. I think

440
00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:31.960
the thing that would be so hard about this is

441
00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:37.200
that their original kind of working very early on in

442
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.079
the disappearance was sort of that, you know, he just

443
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.160
maybe had kind of wandered off, he got a little disoriented,

444
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:47.720
And if that were the case and they didn't find

445
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:52.359
him right away, it doesn't bode well. At this point,

446
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:56.680
you're almost hoping that one of the other theories is

447
00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:59.680
what's taken place, because maybe there's still a chance he's

448
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:05.519
a lot But given the conditions, if he's still out

449
00:30:05.559 --> 00:30:12.359
there and he's alone and potentially injured or trapped somehow,

450
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:15.039
it's not good.

451
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.359
Unless he burrowed himself in a warm hole with a

452
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:21.640
bunch of grubs or something to eat, make a little

453
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:25.440
bit of water, like yeah, that's what I want. Yeah,

454
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.279
But then I wish they would have found him.

455
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:33.400
As days stretched in two weeks, the search for Derek

456
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.039
evolved from an urgent rescue mission into one of the

457
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:44.039
most perplexing missing child investigations in Oregon history. Without footprints,

458
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:48.720
a scent trail, or other physical evidence pointing clearly toward

459
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:55.279
accident or foul play, investigators began widening the scope of

460
00:30:55.319 --> 00:31:02.119
their inquiry. That meant re examining witnesses, potential suspects, and

461
00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:07.480
inevitably the family, because they were kind of most of

462
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.319
the people that could fit those bills. Yeah, it's almost

463
00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:16.880
always someone that knows or literally is part of the

464
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:18.960
family when a child goes missing.

465
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:22.559
I mean it's statistically hate that though, because it's so

466
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:25.559
traumatizing if you have nothing to do with it, and

467
00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:28.400
you're just like, find the fucking person who did this. Yep.

468
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:33.759
In nearly all missing child cases, investigators begin with those

469
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:38.359
closest to the victim, and I would argue that's true

470
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:41.519
in adult cases too to some degree. Right, That's where

471
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:45.799
we get the very fun colloquialism.

472
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:46.240
The husband did it.

473
00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:51.480
Not because they assume guilt in every situation though, but

474
00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:56.079
because statistically family members are very often involved.

475
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:58.480
It's like the easiest thing to rule out to. They

476
00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:03.000
know exactly who to talk to, exactly exactly. For the

477
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:10.359
Inga Bretsons, this scrutiny was painful and immediate. Derek's father,

478
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:14.960
Robert Bob Inga Britton, Robert bub Robert Bob.

479
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:17.079
I mean, I feel like you have to kind of

480
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:22.079
make the distinction because the grandfather is also Robert, and

481
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.720
I feel like older men went by Robert. They didn't

482
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:29.920
do like the shortening, you know, and his grandfather speaks

483
00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:32.960
of the devil, Robert Senior, not the actual devil.

484
00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:34.000
Hopefully.

485
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:41.599
They were interviewed multiple times and reportedly cooperated fully. Bob

486
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:46.799
even agreed to a polygraph examination. And honestly, I think

487
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:51.680
that hurt him in this case because they never released

488
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:57.000
the results that I could find documented anywhere. In fact,

489
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:00.400
everything that I read about this case said result were

490
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:04.920
never released, and that just reads like a strike against him,

491
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.079
even though that means literally nothing.

492
00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:10.119
Very unfair, and I get I get where people are

493
00:33:10.119 --> 00:33:11.680
coming from. That's very unfair.

494
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:15.960
It creates a really negative perception based on absolutely zero

495
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:21.759
point zero zero percent information. Law enforcement stressed early on

496
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:26.720
that they had no evidence whatsoever pointing toward family involvement.

497
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.519
I was wondering if he, like, if he failed it,

498
00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:31.400
but they kind of knew, like maybe he was just

499
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:34.039
really nervous and like feel the entire thing. I mean,

500
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:36.440
and they can't put this out or people are going

501
00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:40.119
to think, yeah, obviously I'm speculating, have no idea your speculation.

502
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:42.559
It could be anything. It really could.

503
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.160
Honestly, I was kind of as I was reading that

504
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:50.759
and researching, my thought was kind of I mean, similar vain.

505
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:56.240
I thought, I feel like maybe the results were inconclusive or.

506
00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:59.680
That, because then people will draw their own conclusions to that.

507
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:06.039
Yeah, in its own way, like inconclusive polygraph results.

508
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:08.159
Kind of like people will twist that both ways.

509
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:11.000
Yeah, they'll say, oh my god, he was so stressed

510
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:14.039
out that, like the results were inconclusive and it's because

511
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:18.360
he's such a mess. Or people will say he's clearly guilty.

512
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:22.320
The results were inconclusive. He's a sociopath and he knows

513
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:27.280
how to at least try to beat the machine. Yeah,

514
00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:34.239
not that easy as it is literally taking like baseline vitals.

515
00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:37.800
It's I mean, I'm glad they didn't. It's put it

516
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:38.280
out there though.

517
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:40.960
If it was inconclusive, well, here's the thing, it wouldn't

518
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.639
be admissible in court these days. And there's a reason

519
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.920
for that because people react to trauma, stress, all of

520
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:53.440
these situations so differently, and it's clearly not the most

521
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:59.360
reliable data, reliable science to base someone's guilt or innocence on.

522
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.119
I really want to take one just to see, because

523
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.480
I get really nervous when people are asking me questions

524
00:35:04.519 --> 00:35:08.480
whether I know the answer, whether I'm usually I'm not lying.

525
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:10.800
Sometimes I am, but like I get really nervous when

526
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:13.119
I'm telling the truth because I think someone's going to

527
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:14.519
think I'm lying to them.

528
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:20.000
No, I a thousand percent as someone who took their permit.

529
00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:22.920
Like you know, there's like the driving test when you're

530
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:25.679
ready to get your license, but there's the test that

531
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:28.880
tests your knowledge. And I knew all of the things.

532
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:32.039
But when they started doing the computer test, it would

533
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:34.800
like blink at you and it would tell you every

534
00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:37.960
time you got a question wrong, and it would show

535
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:43.599
like the percentage as you proceeded. I took that test

536
00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:51.519
an unspecified number of times, so stressful. The Inger Bretsons

537
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:54.880
were not a wealthy family, and they lived a relatively

538
00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:59.199
private life. So here's the other thing. Is now, all

539
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:04.199
of a sudden because because they're relatively private people, they're like, oh,

540
00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:05.320
what do you got to hide?

541
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:10.320
I was just like, there's no winning, No, there's not.

542
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:17.360
In small rural communities like Bonanza, privacy can easily morph

543
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:23.880
into suspicion rumors world none of which were supported by evidence,

544
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:29.920
but the scrutiny lingered, amplified by the lack of answers.

545
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:33.639
I mean to me, I just I just kept thinking.

546
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:37.079
It's like it's the Jean Benet of it, all right,

547
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.000
you know it is.

548
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:41.000
Unsolved.

549
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:46.159
Cases just get people going in a way that like,

550
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:51.880
I mean sometimes like reason, is she in the room

551
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:55.480
with us? Like no, no, no, she's not.

552
00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:59.039
No. I was definitely like thinking of Chiren during this.

553
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:01.880
Yes, that's the other one that comes to mind for me,

554
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:05.760
because I feel like it's just as much as I

555
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:10.559
think that I know what I think occurred in the

556
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:14.239
Kirene Horman case, I feel like I know what I

557
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:18.800
think happened here, but there's no good there's no good

558
00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:24.079
answer what child is missing. A significant early lead involved

559
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:28.280
a white Dodge pickup seen near the area where Derek disappeared.

560
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:32.119
A female witness came forward and described a man in

561
00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:38.360
his forties or fifties acting strangely, possibly watching families along

562
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:42.679
the tree cutting routes. This man reportedly approached the woman

563
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:47.519
and her daughter, asking odd questions that made her uncomfortable.

564
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:51.039
Not exactly sure what those questions were, but it doesn't

565
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:56.119
take a lot of imagination. Not sure how uncomfortable, not

566
00:37:56.280 --> 00:37:58.679
sure how odd the questions.

567
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:02.199
I hate that. I hate it. Someone could possibly just

568
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:09.519
be like scoping out a nice family Christmas tree like day.

569
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:15.760
Yep, it's nothing is safe and welcome to hell.

570
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:18.360
It's like this is what you expect if you go

571
00:38:18.440 --> 00:38:20.480
like to a city Christmas tree place. You know, like

572
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.440
someone snatched my kid because there's so many people around

573
00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:28.079
right in the middle of fucking nowhere. Yeah, who the.

574
00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:31.440
Fuck is grabbing my child? I've been seeing another person

575
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:37.280
for three hours. Her description helped generate a composite sketch.

576
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:39.639
Ooh.

577
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:44.280
The sketch, featuring a broad shouldered man with scruffy hair

578
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:50.000
wearing outdoor gear was circulated widely, and I can see

579
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:51.000
the wheels turning.

580
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:54.039
I want the picture, I bet you do. That's some

581
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:58.320
lumberjack porn. Well, I wasn't thinking that he might be hot.

582
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:01.119
I just wanted to see it. Okay, But here's the thing.

583
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:05.840
In a rural area like Klamoth County with over sixty

584
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:10.400
five thousand residents at the time, many of whom might

585
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:14.159
fit the description, the sketch was unable to produce any

586
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:18.599
solid leads. I could see that because literally everybody matches

587
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:22.360
the description of a broad shouldered man with scruffy hair.

588
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:25.320
And outdoor gear lumber jack.

589
00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:29.760
Despite repeated tips and follow ups, the identity of the

590
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:34.360
man was never confirmed and the lead ultimately stalled. What

591
00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:39.519
I did read is that person faced a lot of

592
00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:43.280
intense scrutiny within the community, but they didn't know who

593
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:51.159
it was. Some people knew, Oh that's okay, cannot confirm there.

594
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:55.239
Or some people thought that they knew. Yeah, okay, Wow.

595
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:58.199
There were definitely people that thought that they knew. Maybe

596
00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:02.360
some people did. And here's the thing is, generally, if

597
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:07.639
you have concerns and they're like in this situation, you

598
00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:11.199
should absolutely come forward, right, But it's all of the

599
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:14.639
people who want to stick their nose in on the

600
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:18.480
back end that weren't involved, didn't see anything, don't really

601
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:24.639
have anything to contribute except their musings.

602
00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:26.800
Like this guy's kind of alone, are kind of a weirdo.

603
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:30.159
It's probably him. Yeah, he looks like he'd take a kid.

604
00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:31.000
And some of.

605
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:36.960
Those people can literally never have a normal life after that. Yeah,

606
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:44.519
it's horrific. It's like a secondary crime. Investigators reviewed known

607
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:49.559
offenders with histories of abducting or harming children in Oregon

608
00:40:49.719 --> 00:40:56.079
and neighboring northern California, cross referencing Derek's disappearance against other

609
00:40:56.159 --> 00:41:05.119
cases involving opportunistic predators. Detectives evaluated multiple individuals as part

610
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:08.559
of that process, but none emerged as a clear or

611
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:12.760
definitive match. They did find a few guys they were

612
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:14.119
concerned about.

613
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:18.000
I bet they did. Yeah, there's a few guys in

614
00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:19.760
the world everyone should be concerned about.

615
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:24.559
Well, but like in that particular part of I mean,

616
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.960
it's a rural community and there's a lot of other

617
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:32.079
very rural communities that surround it, so it's like it's

618
00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:38.920
not a particularly dense population area. But they found a

619
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:45.679
few people they were concerned about. Ultimately, investigators were unable

620
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:51.000
to establish any confirmed connection between Derek's disappearance and known

621
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:57.519
offenders in the surrounding region. There is definitely one person

622
00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:05.800
Reddit was very very interested in, as it seems, so

623
00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:13.880
we're authorities, But what if Derek encountered an entirely different

624
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:19.800
type of predator. Derek's small size prompted speculation that a

625
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:24.719
wild animal could have taken him. Now, not exactly the

626
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:31.800
squatch theory, right, but mountain lion sidings were common in

627
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:36.320
the region, and the deep woods around Pelican Butte were

628
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:38.000
prime hunting territory.

629
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:42.639
But wildlife experts have.

630
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:47.519
By and large and ultimately quickly dismissed the theory. A

631
00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:51.920
Mountain Lai attack would typically leave drag marks, blood, or

632
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:57.840
torn clothing. And I can't imagine it's particularly quiet, right,

633
00:42:59.239 --> 00:43:02.880
there would have been some sort of signs of a struggle,

634
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:06.519
like even if they're not tall enough to just like

635
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:08.400
pick something up.

636
00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:10.320
By their mouth and like, yeah.

637
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:13.440
No, this is a child of a significant height and

638
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:17.760
weight that I mean, they're on their back and they're big.

639
00:43:18.119 --> 00:43:20.480
Well, I don't think they're planning to have him ride.

640
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:22.239
I feel like it would need to be dragged, like

641
00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:24.519
you said, like, there's no way it's just picking it

642
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:28.320
up straight and like, yeah, I don't see that happening.

643
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:32.039
Nope, there did not appear to be any signs of

644
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:37.280
a pursuit because they stalk their prey. Yeah, and little

645
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:41.000
else supported the theory of an animal attack.

646
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:43.840
Unless it's an animal we don't know about.

647
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:48.480
One of the most discussed pieces of evidence came about

648
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:53.480
a week into the search, a folding knife found near

649
00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:58.519
the area where Derek was last seen. The knife reportedly

650
00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:03.400
belonged to Derek. Oh, I don't know that authorities have

651
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:08.079
ever confirmed that they were able to confirm it belonged

652
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:13.719
to him, but the consensus in general was that the

653
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:18.639
knife is believed to have belonged to Derek. Okay, the

654
00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:23.760
blade was missing and the handles showed signs of weather exposure,

655
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:28.639
but no signs of a struggle, so no obvious blood.

656
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:30.519
I'm assuming blade was missing.

657
00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:37.119
That's strange for a folding, like I'm picturing like kind

658
00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:40.159
of a like a pocket knife. Yeah, I don't know

659
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:43.639
how that happens, but I'm assuming if there's some sort

660
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:48.199
of an altercation that occurs where the blade is removed,

661
00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:51.840
there should also be blood and they're not finding that

662
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:53.960
allegedly reportedly.

663
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:57.880
I don't know. I don't know.

664
00:44:58.039 --> 00:45:00.000
Did he climb a tree? Like was there a tree

665
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:03.400
next to his footprints? Did he like, I mean there's everywhere.

666
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:07.280
Did you try to like stab and then he was

667
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:10.960
not particularly like they didn't report that he was an

668
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:17.119
normally tall child six' four and BECAUSE i could see Where,

669
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:19.599
okay maybe he's struck into a tree and he's trying

670
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:20.000
to climb.

671
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:25.440
Whatever, well he's an average sized. Child, YEAH i don't.

672
00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:31.679
Know investigators never conclusively determined whether the knife was dropped

673
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:37.039
the day he, vanished or maybe even on an earlier.

674
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:44.119
Outing it's like maybe the family who actually frequently went, hiking, hunting.

675
00:45:44.199 --> 00:45:48.719
Fishing maybe he'd actually lost that pocket knife on a

676
00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:52.199
unrelated date outing.

677
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:58.079
Adventure where the fuck did the? Blake so many, questions

678
00:45:58.199 --> 00:45:58.679
so many.

679
00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:04.320
Questions in the months Following derek's, disappearance tips poured in

680
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:10.360
from Across oregon and neighboring, states Including, California, washington And.

681
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:16.119
Idaho sightings were reported in public places and remote, areas

682
00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:22.239
alike a child Resembling, derek scene with unfamiliar, adults a

683
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:26.159
voice heard in the, woods a fleeting glimpse that sparked.

684
00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:32.280
Hope each was, Investigated none were. Substantiated at least one,

685
00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:37.079
hoax an anonymous call Claiming derek had been taken to Northern,

686
00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:43.559
california diverted significant investigative resources before the caller later admitted

687
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:46.760
the story was. Fabricated, uh that's just.

688
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:51.920
The, worst literally the. Worst there is a special place in.

689
00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:56.239
Hell false leads like these took a toll on time,

690
00:46:56.840 --> 00:47:01.800
funding AND i would argue almost be even more, important

691
00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:06.639
like the most important, morale law enforcement and the family

692
00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:07.400
and the.

693
00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:12.199
COMMUNITY i understand maybe seeing something and it turning out

694
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:14.360
not to be right who it, is.

695
00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:19.119
But you actually fabricated. This, yeah that's. Fucked you are

696
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:25.280
sick in the. Head, still investigators pursued every potential, lead

697
00:47:25.599 --> 00:47:29.800
knowing that even unlikely information had to be treated, seriously

698
00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:37.760
which is in some cases. Unfortunate, yeah because sometimes you

699
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:40.480
go after the wrong one and how could they?

700
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:40.639
Know.

701
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:46.480
Okah by early nineteen ninety, nine The Klamouth County Sheriff's

702
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:52.480
office publicly acknowledged That derek's disappearance was being treated as

703
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:58.400
a potential. Abduction the abrupt end of his, tracks the

704
00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:04.400
absence physical, evidence and reports of a suspicious vehicle kept

705
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:09.360
concerns about foul play firmly in play play blood, play

706
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:15.159
but without a body or, evidence and without a, suspect

707
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:22.079
investigators found themselves in a familiar and frustrating. Limbo as

708
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:27.320
months turned into, years the case went. Cold by late

709
00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:33.800
nineteen ninety, nine the investigation shifted into what law enforcement

710
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:42.119
termed an open but inactive. Status detectives continued to review,

711
00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:49.280
tips reevaluate, suspects and examine new forensic evidence or even

712
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:57.159
techniques periodically as they, emerged but without new, evidence there

713
00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:02.320
was little forward, moment, BECAUSE i, mean what the hell

714
00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:05.760
else you? Do there's sixty five thousand people there at this,

715
00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:06.519
time like.

716
00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:10.039
Interview every single one of them for the third.

717
00:49:10.119 --> 00:49:15.719
Time even as the public spotlight appeared to dim on the,

718
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:21.679
case The Klamath falls community continued holding periodic. Vigils the

719
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:26.679
forest Around Pelican butte developed a near mythic, status and

720
00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:31.280
despite the lengthening, timeline investigators refused to close the.

721
00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:33.760
Case every few.

722
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:38.320
Years Klamath County search And rescue returned To Pelican butte

723
00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:44.119
with advances and, equipment held the promise of new. Opportunities

724
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:49.559
ground penetrating radar OR gpr for, short WHICH i wish

725
00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:52.440
they had put THE gpr first BECAUSE i would have

726
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.519
just said, that do you MEAN gpr if you're?

727
00:49:55.639 --> 00:49:58.000
Nasty because they think you.

728
00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:03.079
Do maybe it as you used to scan embankments suspected

729
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:07.119
provoses it's, crevices.

730
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:09.559
BUT i can NEVER i can't. SAY i can't even

731
00:50:09.559 --> 00:50:12.000
say it's. Crevasse, YEAH i don't care if there are

732
00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:12.480
two different.

733
00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:17.519
Things and areas where melting snow revealed depressions in the,

734
00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:23.480
earth no anomalies consistent with human remains or potential burial

735
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:26.000
sites were found as of.

736
00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:29.880
Recording they didn't find anyone else, Though i'm like kind

737
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.239
of shocked that they didn't stumble on something. ELSE i,

738
00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:36.400
Mean i'm glad THEY i mean it's a hard thing

739
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:38.039
because you want them to find the, things but you

740
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:39.840
don't want the. Thing you don't want the things to

741
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:44.880
be there in the first. Place, no. Exactly, Yeah AND i,

742
00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:46.719
mean my, god is.

743
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:50.119
It do we not already have enough people to find

744
00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:54.199
for them to just like stumble upon the remains of somebody?

745
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:56.440
Else and they're Like Jesus.

746
00:50:56.079 --> 00:51:01.440
Christ going on in these Ons AND i like, THAT

747
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:08.119
i could understand there's a little bit. Frustration aerial thermal

748
00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:12.440
imaging was also employed first during the initial rescue, phase

749
00:51:12.519 --> 00:51:17.079
so this wasn't necessarily like a truly new, Technology but

750
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:22.280
later they used it in targeted surveys looking for unusual

751
00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:27.519
heat patterns or terrain. Disturbances so they're just kind of

752
00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:30.960
using it in a different way at this juncture in

753
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:33.400
the case because they're looking for different.

754
00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:35.800
Things Because i'm like, this they wouldn't be looking for

755
00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:39.480
heat necessarily right late in The.

756
00:51:41.239 --> 00:51:44.840
YEAH i think even though you're not emitting like the

757
00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:49.039
ninety eight point, six, OH i think the heat signature

758
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:55.280
might be different based on like just frozen soil or

759
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:58.079
snow Versus it.

760
00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:01.280
Makes me think of like the body, farms where they

761
00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:05.760
put bodies in different conditions to see learn from. It,

762
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:08.199
yes a thousand, Percent yeah.

763
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:14.159
ABSOLUTELY i mean whether the topography so many different things

764
00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:17.639
like play a role in like what's going to be

765
00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:21.960
the thing that helps, us you, know find potential. Remains

766
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:27.119
it's very interesting AND i mean that's a huge part of, why,

767
00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:31.639
like you, know the body farms are such a valuable

768
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:34.199
resource to, science.

769
00:52:34.519 --> 00:52:37.119
The ones that are done correctly, right and of course

770
00:52:38.119 --> 00:52:39.559
again nothing.

771
00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:45.840
Emerge each new search brought hope.

772
00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:47.840
Followed by a new devastating wave of.

773
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:51.599
HEARTBREAK i don't think any of us can fathom how

774
00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:59.039
difficult it would be to just keep reliving this experience, days, weeks, months,

775
00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:05.000
years decades. Later, yeah and you want to be.

776
00:53:05.079 --> 00:53:09.039
Hopeful it's a hard, balance like you'd want to be

777
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:10.480
hopeful but not too.

778
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:13.360
Hopeful and it's such a dangerous thing like that could

779
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:17.280
just really like the, hurt the.

780
00:53:17.239 --> 00:53:20.920
Ups and downs of. That i'm not cut at. THAT

781
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:25.159
i don't think anybody. Is it's like you just you

782
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:28.559
just just do it because you just had. To. Yeah,

783
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:31.960
yeah and hopefully they had people to talk. TO i

784
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:34.840
really really hope that there was some therapy involved and,

785
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:40.000
support and there's definitely a lot of community.

786
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:45.119
SUPPORT i think ultimately, people you, KNOW i, mean there's

787
00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:48.639
always going to be some trash pandas in the, mix

788
00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:51.079
but people came.

789
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:52.480
Through in a lot of ways.

790
00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:58.039
Too decades, Later Derek Anger breton's disappearance has become a

791
00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:03.639
deeply haunting Person Fick northwest. Mystery the absence of truth

792
00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:11.159
and resolution still. Puzzling investigators have never settled on a single. Explanation,

793
00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:16.719
instead there are multiple possibilities that continue to be. Considered

794
00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:20.719
there's a lot of theories out, There, yeah but there

795
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:24.000
Are these are kind of for those that have followed

796
00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:26.280
the case or that have researched, it.

797
00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:27.920
People that are closely.

798
00:54:28.039 --> 00:54:36.079
Connected these remain the primary explanations discussed in connection with the,

799
00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:40.320
disappearance none of which has ever been confirmed.

800
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:41.440
Or entirely ruled.

801
00:54:41.480 --> 00:54:47.840
Out they've never said any one theory is for sure

802
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:48.760
not what.

803
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:52.599
Happened that's crazy because they just have no.

804
00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:58.679
Clue some pieces of, evidence you could almost just depending on,

805
00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:07.199
perspective you could arrive at multiple contradictory. Theories one possibility

806
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:11.760
is That derek succumbed to the elements which introduces a

807
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:16.880
lot of variables because succumb to the elements when how

808
00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:22.079
given the brutal winter, conditions exposure was considered early, on

809
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:27.719
it's very. Possible, however many have questioned this, explanation noting

810
00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:32.960
that multiple quite a few snow melt cycles have passed

811
00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:38.920
without the recovery of, remains, clothing or any additional personal.

812
00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:42.280
Effects you asked about that pretty early.

813
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:46.719
On the terrain itself may have proven treacherous in one

814
00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:47.960
form or, another.

815
00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:49.679
Particularly for a.

816
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:54.760
Child yet repeated surges Of Pelican butte and other suspected

817
00:55:54.840 --> 00:56:00.559
areas have produced no evidence supporting this, explanation so they

818
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:05.239
have explored any sort, of you, know small.

819
00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:06.280
Cave systems in the.

820
00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:12.400
Area perhaps the most persistent and most troubling possibility is.

821
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:18.039
Abduction the sudden end Of derek's, footprints the reported but

822
00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:24.320
unconfirmed snowplow, siding and the unresolved lead involving a suspicious

823
00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:27.719
man and a White dodge pickup have kept this theory in.

824
00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:34.480
Consideration law enforcement has stated the abduction theory cannot be ruled.

825
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:37.360
Out SO i feel, like doesn't really it doesn't mean

826
00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:40.119
a whole, lot because they're just saying we're not ruling it.

827
00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:45.119
Out BUT i think it's telling that for certain theories

828
00:56:45.639 --> 00:56:50.400
they specifically address like we're not ruling this. Out, YEAH

829
00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:52.960
i think that says. Something in a lot of. Cases

830
00:56:53.960 --> 00:56:58.480
as of the most recent public, statements the case remains.

831
00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:02.599
Open detective continue to review tips as they come in

832
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:09.360
and periodically re examine the evidence using modern investigative. Tools

833
00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:16.440
derek's disappearance is also compared against unidentified remains when. Appropriate

834
00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:21.880
despite decades of, effort no explanation has yet answered the

835
00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:26.360
question of what happened On pelicanpute that day In december

836
00:57:26.440 --> 00:57:31.239
of nineteen ninety. Eight some, cases and if you're asking,

837
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:38.440
me far too, many fade quietly into archival. Boxes derek's

838
00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:43.199
disappearance has remained alive in the public consciousness because it

839
00:57:43.239 --> 00:57:47.119
had all the elements of a nightmare that felt too,

840
00:57:47.199 --> 00:57:52.679
real a child vanishing in, seconds a trail ending abruptly

841
00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:58.000
in untouched, snow and a wilderness that seemed to swallow.

842
00:57:58.119 --> 00:58:04.320
Evidence Hall rick's disappearance remains one Of oregon's most confounding

843
00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:09.599
missing child. Mysteries bursts of media attention over the years

844
00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:15.559
have carried two side. Effects renewed public, interest often generating

845
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:20.880
fresh but ultimately unproductive tips to this, point as well

846
00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:28.440
as emotional re traumatization for the. Family for, investigators the

847
00:58:28.559 --> 00:58:33.039
exposure proved to be both a blessing and a. Curse

848
00:58:33.679 --> 00:58:39.079
fresh eyes sometimes means fresh, perspectives but they can also

849
00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:47.480
mean sifting through, noise, speculation and occasionally cruel or outlandish.

850
00:58:47.559 --> 00:58:52.159
Theories derek's case is frequently cited in search and rescue

851
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:57.000
training discussions and cold case. Retrospectives it's one of many

852
00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:00.719
such cases serve as a cautionary tale of how quickly

853
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:06.360
a missing person scenario can present unique or unexpected, variables

854
00:59:07.239 --> 00:59:15.840
evolved throughout, investigation and ultimately turn. Cold derek's disappearance is

855
00:59:15.880 --> 00:59:18.920
one of the most heart wrenching unsolved cases that lingers

856
00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:25.599
at the, crossroads the possibilities ranging wildly between wilderness accident

857
00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:32.360
or criminal, abduction refusing to settle neatly into either. Category

858
00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:39.320
the physical environment offers one, explanation the behavioral evidence seemingly

859
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:44.920
points toward. Another neither is fully, satisfying yet both remain.

860
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:49.079
Possible both seem, incomplete and WHEN i say, BOTH i

861
00:59:49.159 --> 00:59:54.639
mean it's not like there's only two, theories, unfortunately.

862
00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:57.239
But two that seem like the most, likely.

863
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:03.079
But one in disputable fact remains an eight year old

864
01:00:03.079 --> 01:00:07.360
boy vanished from An oregon, mountainside and in the decades,

865
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:12.599
since not a single definitive trace has ever been. Found

866
01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:18.519
in The Pacific, northwest where forrests hold their stories, Close

867
01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:23.960
derek's absence remains one of the, deepest coldest, mysteries a

868
01:00:24.079 --> 01:00:28.000
lingering ache for his family and friends and their, community

869
01:00:29.440 --> 01:00:33.559
a question without, answer and for those who still follow the,

870
01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:39.000
case one hope endures that someday someone will, speak or

871
01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:43.599
something will be, found and the silence that Swallowed Pelican

872
01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:49.280
butte on That december afternoon will finally mercifully break until

873
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:52.599
the Day derek's case is. Solved this is a call to.

874
01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:59.880
REMEMBER i don't know if they have kept them all these, years,

875
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:06.119
yes BUT i remember reading an interview with his, mother

876
01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:11.599
and just off the top of my, head just from pure,

877
01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:15.800
RECOLLECTION i think this was maybe in two thousand and,

878
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:20.079
four and at the time she told the interviewer that.

879
01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:23.119
They still have His christmas presence.

880
01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:30.800
And they've just they have an Artificial christmas tree that

881
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:34.440
they had put up that. YEAR i don't know if

882
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:36.559
they've kept the tree up the whole time or if

883
01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:40.519
they've just kept the. Presence but she talked about how

884
01:01:41.719 --> 01:01:46.599
now the wrapping is starting to get old and it's

885
01:01:47.079 --> 01:01:51.920
like starting to show signs of where because it's. Old,

886
01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:56.920
yeah and you, know she sort of talked about how

887
01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:01.199
they feel and you, know more specific about you, know

888
01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:04.719
how she feels and what she. Hopes AND i think

889
01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:09.599
the fact that she's talking about his unopened presence from

890
01:02:10.519 --> 01:02:14.480
That CHRISTMAS i think, it you, know sort of speaks

891
01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:17.639
to what her hope has always been that someday he

892
01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:23.199
will walk back through that. Door and they've they've the

893
01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:29.760
family is given somewhat, limited but they've given interviews to

894
01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:33.840
that effect that you, know please if if you're out,

895
01:02:33.880 --> 01:02:39.679
there if you have, him you, know different iterations of

896
01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:40.320
that over the.

897
01:02:40.440 --> 01:02:44.320
Years we just we just wanted him to come. Home

898
01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:48.480
that like broke my heart when you said that they

899
01:02:48.559 --> 01:02:53.119
have The christmas present. Still, yeah but, like, yeah of

900
01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:54.960
course they. Do it's just too.

901
01:02:55.079 --> 01:02:57.599
Much but it's also the kind of thing THAT i

902
01:02:57.639 --> 01:03:03.039
feel like it tugs people's heart strings enough to, like

903
01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:08.880
if you hear about this case and maybe you you,

904
01:03:08.920 --> 01:03:14.000
know somehow know, anything that's the detail that does it for.

905
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:18.480
You, yeah, Really, ROW i can't imagine, too Like christmas

906
01:03:18.480 --> 01:03:23.239
for them now is, Forever, yeah like a reminder of

907
01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:27.119
what they don't. Have it's, like we don't want to

908
01:03:27.159 --> 01:03:30.119
talk about sad stuff On, christmas but like a lot

909
01:03:30.159 --> 01:03:34.199
of people have sad memories On. Christmas and it's just

910
01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:36.920
it is how it, is what it, Is, like it

911
01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:38.440
can't always be happy.

912
01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:43.280
Three weeks Before christmas, essentially like how does that not

913
01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:45.440
change that holiday for?

914
01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:46.320
You for?

915
01:03:47.519 --> 01:03:51.440
Ever And i'm sure at some point as an extended

916
01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:54.519
family in, particular it's, like you, know you have to

917
01:03:54.559 --> 01:03:58.159
find ways to cope and you want to still be

918
01:03:58.239 --> 01:04:02.039
able to have traditions and you, know things that are

919
01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:08.000
meaningful about the day for. You but, YEAH i mean

920
01:04:08.119 --> 01:04:10.639
it'll never be the. Same how could it?

921
01:04:10.679 --> 01:04:15.119
Be, wow we're not going to do the tarot video

922
01:04:15.440 --> 01:04:19.960
for the altar because we're. Lazy, apologies It's. Christmas we're

923
01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:22.079
doing what we. Want she's shuffling over.

924
01:04:22.079 --> 01:04:24.639
There if you don't know me by now and you

925
01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:29.480
don't trust, me, okay working really hard to shuffle these.

926
01:04:29.559 --> 01:04:35.119
Cards she will take a video to post, though and us,

927
01:04:35.199 --> 01:04:40.239
like just you make your pet that uns like you

928
01:04:40.320 --> 01:04:42.559
keep fingering this side and it feels like it's over

929
01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:48.480
there over, Here yeah, yeah six of. Wanes, okay it's

930
01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:51.039
a bunch of beds. Flying, well you know HOW i

931
01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:56.440
feel about, birds the winged. Fucks that's. Right it kind of,

932
01:04:56.480 --> 01:04:58.320
LIKE i, KNOW i think it's clouds under, them but

933
01:04:58.400 --> 01:05:01.440
it could be. Snow it's so. FUNNY i was, thinking like,

934
01:05:01.719 --> 01:05:06.239
humhm that could go really either. Way and the wands on, Top,

935
01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:08.400
okay this is like a, stretch but like the ones

936
01:05:08.440 --> 01:05:09.119
on top look like.

937
01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:14.280
Trees they, do because it's like almost like a chevron. Pattern, yeah, yeah,

938
01:05:14.440 --> 01:05:21.920
okay six of. Ones our keywords are, victory, success, recognition and.

939
01:05:22.039 --> 01:05:27.719
SATISFACTION i got none of, THAT i. KNOW i mean

940
01:05:27.760 --> 01:05:32.320
maybe this is like what's like the family wanted out of.

941
01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:36.000
It maybe maybe it's yet to. Come i'm going to speak.

942
01:05:36.039 --> 01:05:41.400
Hopefully the six of ones is the victory. Card you face,

943
01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:46.360
challenges won the, fight and deserve the accolades you. Receive

944
01:05:47.239 --> 01:05:52.199
success and good fortune are. YOURS i think this card

945
01:05:52.280 --> 01:05:55.360
reads as ultimately like hopeful in the way THAT i

946
01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:56.440
want to interpret.

947
01:05:56.519 --> 01:05:59.280
It but it definitely made me think of like what

948
01:05:59.320 --> 01:06:01.760
you said about the family wanting to be, Hopeful and

949
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:06.400
THEN i got this sense of like the cards said

950
01:06:06.400 --> 01:06:10.719
that this case is really sad and It's christmas time

951
01:06:10.920 --> 01:06:13.440
and they wanted to give everyone a really nice. Card

952
01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:17.159
maybe it sounds, insane but that's what my brain.

953
01:06:17.239 --> 01:06:22.639
Said maybe the six of ones promises a time of

954
01:06:22.719 --> 01:06:29.519
happiness and. Fulfillment you've marshaled your. Energies that's. Interesting that

955
01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:33.719
feels like a phrase that you would use for, somebody

956
01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:37.920
like overcoming the elements in a.

957
01:06:37.960 --> 01:06:38.840
WAY i don't.

958
01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:44.119
Huh i'm not suggesting that's what's happened in this, case

959
01:06:44.360 --> 01:06:47.440
BUT i feel like the imagery like it's there for.

960
01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:49.800
Me that's WHY i really want to know if he

961
01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:52.480
freaking wrote his name on things out, there because that

962
01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:55.880
would mean someone. ELSE i mean that not conclusively that

963
01:06:55.960 --> 01:06:59.760
something didn't take, him but, right but it does sort of,

964
01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:02.719
GOSH i, mean it's just so many things that, like

965
01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:05.800
if we had a better, idea you, know maybe that

966
01:07:06.039 --> 01:07:07.880
changes the timeline and.

967
01:07:08.199 --> 01:07:10.840
Sort of some of the details that we thought, mattered

968
01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:11.480
maybe they.

969
01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:15.199
Don't maybe the person who was driving around in a

970
01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:19.599
white creepy truck being a creep creeping, around maybe that

971
01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:20.280
guy means.

972
01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:25.559
Nothing maybe he's. Everything maybe maybe he carved his name

973
01:07:25.599 --> 01:07:27.880
into a tree with that knife and broke it you.

974
01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:30.199
Know WHAT i, Mean, like, YEAH i mean like, Before,

975
01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:36.159
yeah you've marshaled your energies during times of struggle and overcome.

976
01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:40.679
Obstacles now you're on top and can expect recognition and.

977
01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:47.000
Rewards you feel good about yourself and your. Accomplishments sometimes

978
01:07:47.039 --> 01:07:54.119
this card shows recovery dot dot dot for dramatic effect

979
01:07:54.559 --> 01:07:59.679
from an illness or. Setback but, recovery that's that specific.

980
01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:04.440
Word. Yeah obviously we talked about that balance of being

981
01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:07.719
hopeful and not being too, hopeful and it just makes

982
01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:09.880
me feel like they're, LIKE i want them to find.

983
01:08:09.920 --> 01:08:11.920
Something the Thoth.

984
01:08:11.760 --> 01:08:16.880
Tara labels the sixth Of wand's. Victory the Writer Wait

985
01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:21.159
smith deck shows a triumphant horseman riding at the head

986
01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:27.880
of a jubilant. Procession Sellador, dolly, however takes a different

987
01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:33.680
approach in his. Deck his horseman rides, alone signifying an

988
01:08:33.720 --> 01:08:38.279
inner conquest rather than besting an opponent in the outer.

989
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:43.199
WORLD i feel like my read on that was IMMEDIATELY

990
01:08:44.720 --> 01:08:50.600
i CAN'T i can't even begin to imagine what this

991
01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:53.079
family has been, through but the fact that they have

992
01:08:53.239 --> 01:09:00.399
managed to just find anything resembling hope and strength in

993
01:09:00.439 --> 01:09:04.399
this at, least you, know in what they're presenting to

994
01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:05.600
the outside.

995
01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:08.439
WORLD i feel like it's.

996
01:09:08.279 --> 01:09:13.239
Like this inner battle and for, them like finding that,

997
01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:19.199
peace whatever that looks, like regardless of you, know the

998
01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:25.239
ultimate outcome in their lifetimes versus whatever we might think

999
01:09:25.279 --> 01:09:29.000
of as being like the, justice you, know or or

1000
01:09:29.600 --> 01:09:32.159
the resolution in this, lifetime but like.

1001
01:09:32.199 --> 01:09:37.439
Finding a way to just to just. Cope AND i,

1002
01:09:37.439 --> 01:09:38.199
think you, know.

1003
01:09:39.680 --> 01:09:44.840
Oftentimes like And i've caught myself wanting to say move, on,

1004
01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:48.880
Right AND i think that's it's such a misnomer because

1005
01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:52.960
especially when when it's, unsolved it's, Like i'm, sorry how

1006
01:09:52.960 --> 01:09:56.199
do you move on from something that's? Unsolved and this

1007
01:09:56.399 --> 01:10:00.239
is the person that you care, ABOUT i think all

1008
01:10:00.239 --> 01:10:03.159
you're doing is. Coping AND i think that's the thing

1009
01:10:03.279 --> 01:10:06.239
THAT'S i think in a lot of these, CONVERSATIONS i

1010
01:10:06.279 --> 01:10:10.000
feel like there's so much about the language that we

1011
01:10:10.079 --> 01:10:14.880
use around loss and especially in cases like, this that it's,

1012
01:10:14.920 --> 01:10:17.880
LIKE i CAN'T i can't fathom what it looks like

1013
01:10:18.039 --> 01:10:18.399
to move.

1014
01:10:18.439 --> 01:10:22.000
On, YEAH i think you are simply.

1015
01:10:22.079 --> 01:10:25.760
Coping And i'm sure there are people that do just

1016
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:30.680
DECIDE i have to sort of pick up my life

1017
01:10:30.880 --> 01:10:34.520
whatever that looks, like AND i have to move on

1018
01:10:35.199 --> 01:10:39.479
and for some people that's you, know maybe just ultimately self,

1019
01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:45.000
preservation but coping feels like the more accurate.

1020
01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:48.920
WORD i feel like moving through is like moving on

1021
01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:51.880
is not what it, is just moving through it like

1022
01:10:52.039 --> 01:10:54.680
BECAUSE i don't think you're getting up every, day, yeah

1023
01:10:54.720 --> 01:10:56.800
and just doing what you need to. Do and that's

1024
01:10:56.840 --> 01:10:59.039
not to say you can't have like joy and happiness

1025
01:10:59.079 --> 01:11:01.159
in your life still and though you've gone through something,

1026
01:11:01.239 --> 01:11:06.640
tragic but it's not a, breakup, right like moving on like.

1027
01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:10.279
THAT i just feel like the like the way that

1028
01:11:10.319 --> 01:11:14.359
we interpret that, language it's so different than WHAT i

1029
01:11:14.399 --> 01:11:18.800
would picture in this. Case AND i understand, that like some,

1030
01:11:19.119 --> 01:11:23.960
terms you, know we use them in different, applications and

1031
01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:26.840
it can be all about tone and it can be

1032
01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:31.319
all about you know, what.

1033
01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:34.840
What else are we? Saying what other resources are we offering?

1034
01:11:34.920 --> 01:11:39.079
People BUT i just don't THINK i don't think THAT'S

1035
01:11:39.359 --> 01:11:40.319
i don't think that's the.

1036
01:11:40.439 --> 01:11:44.880
Thing, YEAH i don't. Know maybe in some cases.

1037
01:11:44.479 --> 01:11:49.079
And I'm I'm i'm realizing in this, Moment i've probably

1038
01:11:49.159 --> 01:11:52.960
said moving on in connection to another, case but this

1039
01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:56.720
it just like the language of that just feels so

1040
01:11:57.680 --> 01:11:59.479
specifically not, It.

1041
01:12:00.039 --> 01:12:03.000
Yeah not at all not when you have your yeah

1042
01:12:03.079 --> 01:12:07.640
Sounds christmas presents still, Yeah and maybe maybe that's all it.

1043
01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:10.119
Is BUT i just feel like sometimes you get a

1044
01:12:10.199 --> 01:12:12.720
sense of you just get a.

1045
01:12:12.760 --> 01:12:15.760
FEELING i get a. FEELING i want that little baby

1046
01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:17.600
book right now SO i could see what kind of birdss.

1047
01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:21.960
Are so they're sandhill. Cranes she wasn't always the, leader

1048
01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:25.279
but she still felt the way of, responsibility knowing her

1049
01:12:25.319 --> 01:12:28.439
turn would. Come when she took the, front she would

1050
01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:31.520
spread her wings, wide shaping the air to ease the

1051
01:12:31.560 --> 01:12:35.279
passage of the cranes behind. Her she would read the,

1052
01:12:35.319 --> 01:12:39.800
winds finding updrafts and tailwinds that would carry them higher

1053
01:12:40.359 --> 01:12:43.600
and further despite their. Fatigue she would scan the, ground

1054
01:12:44.199 --> 01:12:47.880
seeking the safety and restoration of a, hidden rich pond

1055
01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:51.880
with frogs and. Snails she would shepherd the formation of

1056
01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:56.439
cranes to their, destination to warm wetland where they would

1057
01:12:56.479 --> 01:13:00.600
survive the. Winter she would guide them and they would. Succeed,

1058
01:13:01.159 --> 01:13:05.279
wow she's literally talking about someone like guiding someone or

1059
01:13:05.319 --> 01:13:07.720
guiding you, know they're heard through the winter to like.

1060
01:13:08.079 --> 01:13:12.439
Survive that's kind of. Wow interesting that talks About, yeah

1061
01:13:12.840 --> 01:13:16.760
the winter. There, Yeah AND i think it was scanning

1062
01:13:17.279 --> 01:13:20.680
like scanning the ground remind me of like.

1063
01:13:20.560 --> 01:13:24.159
The health and it described AND i forget what the

1064
01:13:24.199 --> 01:13:26.479
word was that was, used but it was almost like

1065
01:13:26.600 --> 01:13:27.640
scanning like a.

1066
01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:32.079
Crevasse AND i was, like, OH i know who knew

1067
01:13:32.119 --> 01:13:35.000
the little book pulled it out for us. Today, yeah

1068
01:13:35.000 --> 01:13:38.000
she would scan the ground seeking the safety and restoration

1069
01:13:38.159 --> 01:13:42.640
of a hidden rich. Pond hidden, hidden, sorry a hidden

1070
01:13:42.680 --> 01:13:45.800
pond rich with frogs and stalelshen rich. Pond that would

1071
01:13:45.800 --> 01:13:47.680
be rich. Pond but it's like.

1072
01:13:48.279 --> 01:13:51.199
Hidden but like same thing, though it's like you, know

1073
01:13:51.239 --> 01:13:54.520
you hit pay, dirt like searching for things in the air.

1074
01:13:55.279 --> 01:13:58.560
Nuts that's. WILD i love. THAT i love when those

1075
01:13:58.640 --> 01:14:02.039
kind of like have like so obviously the full interpretation

1076
01:14:02.159 --> 01:14:04.680
doesn't really totally, fit BUT i think we talked about

1077
01:14:04.720 --> 01:14:07.000
how we want it wanted to be on the more positive,

1078
01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:09.039
side and it kind of. Fit, yeah but then it

1079
01:14:09.159 --> 01:14:09.880
like talking about the.

1080
01:14:09.880 --> 01:14:13.479
Winters, yeah BUT i feel like the vibe is kind

1081
01:14:13.479 --> 01:14:17.279
of still the. SAME i feel like it's this overwhelmingly

1082
01:14:17.600 --> 01:14:20.039
like kind OF i DON'T i, mean.

1083
01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:21.800
Does it just feel to you at?

1084
01:14:21.840 --> 01:14:25.880
All like it's kind of like don't give, Up LIKE

1085
01:14:26.720 --> 01:14:29.119
i don't, KNOW i want to believe that we are

1086
01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:34.319
going to get some. SOMETHING i feel, like is this

1087
01:14:34.840 --> 01:14:38.720
answered in our? Lifetime LIKE i. Hope so maybe that's

1088
01:14:38.800 --> 01:14:41.159
just me being, hopeful BUT i.

1089
01:14:41.079 --> 01:14:43.359
Always want to think that with all the unsolved, ones

1090
01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:46.119
all the unsolved, ones you, know we've grown up, WITH

1091
01:14:46.279 --> 01:14:49.880
i always want to think that someday something will come. Out. Yeah,

1092
01:14:50.159 --> 01:14:56.720
Well Merry, Christmas Happy, hollidays you, Guys Just Christmas. Day

1093
01:14:56.960 --> 01:14:59.760
if you don't, CELEBRATE i hope you're enjoying a nice

1094
01:15:00.279 --> 01:15:03.840
free day off because unless you're. Working and then if you're,

1095
01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:08.199
working immensely appreciate your working and they better be paying

1096
01:15:08.239 --> 01:15:11.079
you time and a. Half. BIBE i used to Wear.

1097
01:15:11.199 --> 01:15:14.800
CHRISTMASES i get. It, YEAH i have a creepy as.

1098
01:15:14.920 --> 01:15:20.039
Day we'll see you On magnet say it'll Be New Year's.

1099
01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:24.119
Day, Yeah New Year's. Day should we just cancel the

1100
01:15:24.119 --> 01:15:27.520
pod because it's like nurse your hangover. Baby, yeah let's

1101
01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:30.279
let's preemptively say we're not going to release the podcast that.

1102
01:15:30.359 --> 01:15:33.960
Day have a Great New Year's. Day we're taking the

1103
01:15:34.039 --> 01:15:42.159
fucking day. Off. Bitches she's on The nottay list For

1104
01:15:42.359 --> 01:15:45.920
lion To. US i thought i'd save san to the

1105
01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:46.279
trap