Derrick Engebretsen: The Nightmare Before Christmas

0:00 Meanwhile, news of Derek's disappearance spread through Klamath County, heightening concern amongst locals. Rumors bubbled up in grocery store aisles and school hallways, anything. From mountain lions to hidden mines. To strangers lurking in the trees. Their original kind of working, very early on in the disappearance was sort of that, you know, he just maybe had kind of wandered off, he got a little disoriented. At this point, you're almost hoping that one of the other theories is what's taken place, because maybe there's still a chance he's alive. Hi, Cassie, Hi, Caitlin. Hi. Creepy people. Hello, pepe people, Peep pee peep people in the Pacific Northwest.

0:57 This is PNW hans and homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal and all things related to trees. Oh yeah, yeah, because we're in the tree. Hugging Pacific North Wales. Yep, lots of trees with a PNW. If you're nasty, if you're there, nasty. I tried to sneak it in there real quick. And yeah, she tried to word vomit that out and it did not work out for her. I'm drinking beer. Okay, no, you guys can't see me if you're not watching the video. But I'm drinking a Laurel Laurel Hurst or Laurel Wood, Laurel Wood, not Laurel Hurst, but clothes. And it's called tree Hugger Porter and it's got our license plate on it, so cute. I kind of like want this license plate, but I assume it's taken. Probably.

1:48 I mean, I have this license plate. I want one that says you want hug tr e H g R. You should look into that. Okay, so I'm going to jump in to it. Oh hey, wait what? We also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little deeper insight into our tree topics. We forget intriguing topics treguing. You know what, I said that in my last episode, and I don't I don't think I hit it quite quite right, because neither one of us said anything about it. You didn't giggle. I didn't giggle at my own joke, and I just like. Which I usually do, I was gonna say, you probably like you didn't hit the salabbles well, I said.

2:31 I listened back to it, and I was like this article was intriguing. Like I said, intriguing, it didn't land for either of us. Could have could have just been that day. I hope it landed for all of you out there because it was hilarious. She's like, I'm not above recycling my own material. Right, and I will if I miss telling you that I made a joke, I will come back on another episode. Make sure you know that I made a joke. It's important to us, not the first time. I love that. Okay, well, there's not that many jokes about this one. My working title includes The Nightmare before Christmas, and I'm not reading you a review of the Tim Burton film.

3:22 I was hoping for that. I know that's a different podcast. Well, you said your Christmas themed episode, so I thought it would be happy. Yeah, true crime around the holidays is it can be a theme. I don't know that happy is the word I would use. I think you misunderstood the assignment, did I? No, we can't always be happy and fun on Christmas. We have we have serious true crime topics to talk about. It's true. It's true. Apologies all right now, I'm going to get into it. Ok Okay, I'm gonna hug my tree beer. Yeah, she needs a kozy cover up the art. That's true.

4:10 That's true. Also, your hands get cold. I do have koozies though. I use that koozi you got me all the time, Like I keep it at Britney's because that's where I drink my beer and I use it every single time I'm there. What can I say? Search and rescue teams will tell you the same thing. Fresh snow is honest. Everything is recorded, every step, every pause, every wrong turn. On December fifth, nineteen ninety eight, eight year old Derek Inga Bretson walked into the Oregon Woods in rural Klamath County with his family to cut a Christmas tree and vanished.

4:53 No, during the happiest time of the year. Yeah, happiest activity you cut tree farms? You know, Wait, were they I was gonna say, were they cutting out a U cut place or was it like one where you like in the woods? Were you actually like you pay like five dollars for a license or something and you go and get a tree from the woods. It's not like I don't know that people are paying for license. I thought you had to get like a license to go cut a tree from the woods. Yeah, no, you're supposed to do, Okay. I don't know if they did or didn't. I'm just saying I feel like in a lot of rural arts of Oregon and a lot of other states for that matter, people.

5:34 Are just like, I'm cutting down a tree. I'm paying for no license. I didn't know that. Yeah, I just assumed everyone followed the law. I would just be out there cutting down trees all willing nilly, unlicensed. So they were like looking for those wild looking trees like the unkempt. Uh. Yeah, maybe because like they're not going to be trimmed in the forest, you know, Yeah, they're definally not going to be trimmed. I don't know if that was like an aesthetic that they were seeking or I feel like, if you if that's where you live, they just needed a tree, You're like, I'm getting a Christmas tree. Yeah.

6:14 That day was icy, even by Klamath County standards. Temperatures hovered around twenty degrees fahrenheit, with snowpack along the banks and slopes of Pelican Butte already creeping several inches deep from earlier storms. So it doesn't sound like a great time to go get a Christmas tree. I mean, I think in some places we're just like that up in the gets yep, Okay, yeah. I remember driving down to uh Klamath Lake at one point, and I think it was early November, maybe late October, and it started snowing when I was about forty five minutes out from my destination, and I was like, Okay.

7:01 I guess that makes sense. Are they at like a higher They're at a high elevation. It's a high elevation in certain parts, in certain parts in this part. Yes, this is yeah. They're up in the mountains. Snow muffled, sound, blanketed, the high desert, evergreens uncoded, the rugged terrain along Pelican Butte, the landscape beautiful and brutal in equal measure. Derek's footprints led through the snow and then stopped, not scattered, not disturbed, just gone. Like Bigfoot took him or something. It's a fair question.

7:45 Snow doesn't forget, but on that mountain it kept a secret. I've done something really cruel. Two kid cases in a row previous to this, and this is a third, which is I listen, gone to my head. I could not have guessed that at the happiest time of the year. I would have picked to do three motherfucking cases. That are kids, back to back to back to back to back. It feels like it's actually been more than three. What's going on with you?

8:27 The outing to fetch their Christmas tree was a tradition for this family. Derek had accompanied his father, Robert Bob inga Breton, and his grandfather Robert Sr. On similar outings before. Is Bob what he goes by? Her? Is his name Robert Bob? No? I think he goes by Bob? Okay? Yeah, just checking, Yeah, Robert Bob. Just to be sure. You never know. Yeah, Year after year, families partake in countless holiday traditions. They're supposed to be safe, familiar. Which should have been a memory, turned into a nightmare one that has never ended.

9:09 Derek lived with his family in Bonanza. Bonanza, Bananza. I know, it sounds so fun. I didn't even know that was a place. It is in a rural, working class community, about twenty five miles east of Klamath Falls. That's probably why I've never heard of it. Yeah, I was gonna say, is there east of cold? If you're that far down south? Most of us are like, isn't that California? This high desert area, characterized by vast stretches of open land and frigid winters, could either feel peaceful or foreboding.

9:51 Depending on the day. Derek loved the outdoors and was used to being outside in the elements. His father took him hunting regularly, fishing, and just exploring the woods. His level of comfort in Organ's wilderness at such a young age is something many have pointed to as part of what makes this case so baffling. That is really interesting because that's I don't know if you listen to my tree episode yet, to the part with my dad and ground not the editor, No, I haven't yet. It's very interesting because I talked about how I used to wander around in the forest and find my way back all on my own, and like me who doesn't know directions, like has no sense of but just your comfortability, I think, and I feel like if you're even experienced like that, that's even more yeah proof, like you could just find your way back right right or just like a sense.

10:53 I feel like some of those things, like those activities outdoors, it's in so many different ways it helps you preserve, Like the self preservation instinct and like the right things to do. They're sort of imparted on you. Yeah. That being said, he's a very young child. So after spending much of the late morning driving forest roads and stopping periodically in the snow, the group parked along a US forest road to continue scouting for a tree. Derek wandered slightly ahead while his father placed several freshly cut branches into their pickup.

11:47 Okay, I thought you were saying, placed them on the ground, like so they could find their way back, like a little breadcrumb. Right, Yeah, very handsome and gretel. No, why was he taking branches? I'm sure they were planning to do some sort of like garland or something like that. Yeah, reads some things. It was during one of these seemingly ordinary and fleeting moments, just the slightest lapse of attention, the kind that happens in a heartbeat, that Derek slipped out of sight. Bob later told investigators he had turned away briefly, his attention turned to the task at hand, and when he looked back, Derek was gone.

12:34 So strange. Yes, it's such an isolated place at that time of year. He called out, expecting to hear the boy answer from behind a tree or over a short ridge, But there was nothing, no voice, no movement, no crackling footsteps on snow, just cold, heavy quiet. So like if someone had taken him and ran away, right, you would hear if he was running. Earth would feel as though that might be audible.

13:18 Yeah. Within minutes, Derek's father and grandfather began scouring the immediate area. Tracks were visible, small prints and the snow leading away from the road toward dense trees. They followed them and soon encountered what would become one of the most haunting images in the case, a final, clearly defined footprint that abruptly ended near a wooded drainage area. There were no signs of a struggle, no disturbance, and the snow just a sudden stop, as if the boy had vanished mid stride.

14:02 What did he like fall into another dimension? I mean, honestly, anything feels possible in this case. It's so weird, it's very strange, And there are a number of theories. We'll definitely get to them, but I'm sure there are Yeah, I'm sure there's wild ones. Yeah, like they're worse than my bigfoot theory. Yeah, that oddly did not make the more popular theory list. The reason I said that really quickly before I forget, I heard a story about Bigfoot and it was like, you know Bigfoot episode. I think it was a podcast, and they talked about someone just disappearing from the woods.

14:45 Yes, no, I mean I've I've definitely heard stories like that, and for whatever reason, you know, the individual circumstances of the story, people thought, Okay, this, this feels like squatch. Right, Like what other explanation would there be? And with each of the more popular theories, there are things that like fit, and then none of them feels quite adequate, which I think is probably the most frustrating part. I think I know where I land in terms of the popular theories, but I'm definitely gonna be curious what you think she's like. I'm squatch through and through squatch watch.

15:31 By late afternoon, the Klamath County Sheriff's Office launched a response, and search and rescue teams began mobilizing. Darkness approached quickly, with temperatures dipping into the teams as more snow fell over the shadowed woods, the combination of conditions creating a terrifying scenario. If Derek was out there alone, hypothermia would set in quickly. Yeah. For the first several hours, the prevailing belief was simple and hopeful. Derek had wandered off, become disoriented, and was sheltering somewhere nearby. Over the next forty eight hours, search efforts expanded to include hundreds of searchers and volunteers.

16:21 WOW teams combed. The area using helicopters, snowopiles, dogs, and infrared equipment. They have to find him, right. Yeah, I mean it's it's always critical in the first forty eight That's why they named the show. That, especially in these fucking conditions with those elements. I'm freezing right now. Yes, I know you need to put your sweater on. It's got cold. I know I have chills. I have chills, and you know me, I run hot. But ya talking about the cold like this though. It just makes sure you want to put on your Santas letter.

17:02 It sure does. They uncovered only a handful of ambiguous clues. There was a small disturbance scraped into a snow bank, possibly where a child had tried to shelter. There were reports of the name Derek, or perhaps even just the letter D having been marked into the snow on a log or embankment. What, Yeah, the account's buried. It's very it's very hard to tell a loggy embankment. I mean they say, like maybe on a log, maybe somewhere in the snow of the embankment.

17:45 It's it's unclear, it's murky. How is there not like a picture of it. No, it's not evidence. Just because it's evidence doesn't mean it's publicly available. In fact, a lot of evidences never populate. Okay, they just didn't clarify that part, because Okay, I'm always thinking if you know something like yeah, how did they not know? Like yeah, they're like, oh wait, you're like listen, all credit to you, but like how did they not Yeah, okay I know. No, No, like you really have like certain things you're like no, no, no, I really want to drill down, like huh right, No, it's like it's a good thing to be, Like, I'm going to think about this critically, Like.

18:28 But they keep certain things secret sometimes in case they yeah, or just like some details. It may not even be that it's like secrecy specifically about the investigation, but it may just be that like there's a lot of stuff that they're just not releasing to the public because, first of all, it's like a massive undertaking for them to do that, because they have to come through what they do know about the case. They have to confirm is this something we want to make publicly available, And they have to figure out ways to transmit whatever information, you know, images, whatever that is, whatever that looks like interesting And why would they do that if they don't need to? But I want to know, I exactly, Yeah, because I want to know. And that's why, because if he was out there writing his name on things, that breaks my heart.

19:24 Yeah. A snowplow driver later reported a possible sighting of a small figure near the roadway. And that is about all there is to that thread. So okay, could have been anything, Yep, could have been something, could have been nothing, could have been any number of things in between. It could have been a baby bigfoot. I'm very upset right now. She's like, I'm really holding onto the bigfoot thing. I'm just gonna what. Searchers didn't find proved us as haunting. No additional footprints beyond the original set. The combination of faint signs and stark absences painted an unsettling picture evidence that a child had been there, followed by nothing at all.

20:20 Like you said, it's like a portal opened up. I can't even pretend to sherlock. How that happened? That? Yeah? Like, where did there? That is the crux of this case. I feel like one of one of As hours and eventually days passed, the abrupt end of Derek's tracks raised growing concern among investigators that the explanation might be more complicated than a child simply lost in the woods. Tracks don't just disappear in fresh snow, at least not without help. As the search for eight year old Derek Ingebretsen stretched into its second and third days, it ballooned into a massive operation rarely seen in Klamath County. What began as a missing child search rapidly expanded into a multi agency response involving local deputies, the Oregon State Police, US Forest Service officers, volunteer search and rescue groups, experienced trackers, mountain teams, aircrews, and dozens of local residents determined to bring Derek home.

21:47 Amidst the punishing terrain, the search continued, as did speculation about the unsettling possibilities. I can't imagine what kind of immediate theories there were. I mean, I can't imagine. That's what I meant to say. I can't imagine. I think some of them are Some of them are surprising because because you want to thay I, you know, maybe I just don't think very much of humans. I don't. Yeah, maybe that's the part that surprising is I'm like, oh, no, I figured somebody would. Most of them are not necessarily problematic as a theory. I think it's all about how we speak about these things, how we approached the topic.

22:38 Pelican Butte's terrain is riddled with small creeks, drainage ditches, and deep pockets of concealed space created by fallen timber or undercut snow banks. As the search of the treacherous terrain wore on, several chilling prospects were explored. Did Derek fall into a part actually frozen creek or perhaps slipped into a hidden pocket of snow. Another theory that was kind of floated was that maybe he slipped into like a cravasse of sorts, like maybe some involuntary splunking, which is the most horrifying.

23:22 When you see a hole though, like his Dad was right behind him. Right, So these are things that again it's like unless the snow le like yeah, I mean it's it's confounding. But then then it's after like they would have did they not look at when this? Does the snow ever melt or is it always constantly snow does melt in the smelt? So they would find You're like. Your head, your head is in the right place, You're like ten steps ahead. I'm trying. Yeah, no, you're like, I'm gonna solve it. I'm gonna solve it. I know Caitlin, I know she knows all the details and be. Put, No, I would never know who, Like, how could I ever make that like about me?

24:08 I would be so jealous. But yeah, a fall into icy water could explain the sudden end of the footprints. Was there water right there? Yeah, there are some creeks and like drainage ditches and things. So I mean it's it's a possibility. I feel like that of the theories, I feel like that seems like slightly more remote. I think there are a lot of other possibilities related to the topography. I need to see the scene. Yeah, I think there are other possibilities that seem potentially like maybe more viable, but but thorough searches of creeks and ravines turned up no evidence to support this scenario.

24:58 If Derek had fallen into water or a cravose of some kind, it was believed there would be more physical evidence because I think even if you start slipping into water or like down into a hole, there's like some sort of kind of it's almost like a biological imperative really that like you're gonna be thrashing and you're gonna be like grabbing onto anything you can to try to What if. Something like fell on his head. I mean, there's so many things that could happen in a forest to a tiny child. That's really scary. She and I were probably the same height.

25:40 Don't go into the forest, Caitlin. But what about the possibility of a stranger abduction, squatch or not. That would be so weird, like for someone to just it would be Following this came one of the most controversial and chilling theories. The roadway running past Helicompute was accessible enough for a passing vehicle. It's possible that if someone saw Derek alone, even briefly, the child could have been snatched quickly with no footprints left behind.

26:22 How would there be no footprints from the other person. So I'm assuming because again there's only so much that we can know about the specific conditions of that day. But they were loading trees and branches into their truck, so that was on the side of the road, presumably if Derek was not quite on the road but very nearby, and maybe they didn't notice somehow another passing vehicle because they were just beyond like in the trees or like on the other side of the vehicle, like whatever that looks like they.

27:05 Could presumably like literally pick this. Kid up, like like the hood of his jacket and just yank him literally out of the snow. Possibly or you don't have eyes on the case very few seconds footprints though, like I I guess. I'm not saying it makes perfect sense and that we don't like I feel like I need a three D model. What made this theory especially disturbing is that aligned with several unresolved elements of the case, the reported but unconfirmed snowplow drivers sighting, the abrupt end of tracks, the lack of a confirmed scent. There was no confirmed scent trail because they did bring in dogs, as well as the possibility that Derek might have tried to just return to the road because that's where their vehicle was. Investigators never ruled out abduction. In fact, some detectives privately considered the theory, although they lacked concrete evidence to go public with it.

28:21 So I think that's kind of important because I feel like, where they don't necessarily publicly release an official theory of a crime, people kind of are left to speculate. Oh, yeah, they are, and people can be focusing on the case based on a completely different theory that maybe isn't helpful to the investigation as it's unfolding. I'm worried about the family, yeah, Like what kind of theory is about that? Yep, And you're right to be concerned. Meanwhile, news of Derek's disappearance spread through Klamath County, heightening concern amongst locals. Rumors bubbled up in grocery store aisles and school hallways, anything from.

29:12 Mountain lions to hidden minds to strangers lurking in the trees. As hours turned into days, hope began to dim, but the investigation was still in the early days. I think the thing that would be so hard about this is that their original kind of working very early on in the disappearance was sort of that, you know, he just maybe had kind of wandered off, he got a little disoriented, And if that were the case and they didn't find him right away, it doesn't bode well. At this point, you're almost hoping that one of the other theories is what's taken place, because maybe there's still a chance he's a lot But given the conditions, if he's still out there and he's alone and potentially injured or trapped somehow, it's not good.

30:16 Unless he burrowed himself in a warm hole with a bunch of grubs or something to eat, make a little bit of water, like yeah, that's what I want. Yeah, But then I wish they would have found him. As days stretched in two weeks, the search for Derek evolved from an urgent rescue mission into one of the most perplexing missing child investigations in Oregon history. Without footprints, a scent trail, or other physical evidence pointing clearly toward accident or foul play, investigators began widening the scope of their inquiry. That meant re examining witnesses, potential suspects, and inevitably the family, because they were kind of most of the people that could fit those bills. Yeah, it's almost always someone that knows or literally is part of the family when a child goes missing.

31:19 I mean it's statistically hate that though, because it's so traumatizing if you have nothing to do with it, and you're just like, find the fucking person who did this. Yep. In nearly all missing child cases, investigators begin with those closest to the victim, and I would argue that's true in adult cases too to some degree. Right, That's where we get the very fun colloquialism. The husband did it. Not because they assume guilt in every situation though, but because statistically family members are very often involved. It's like the easiest thing to rule out to. They know exactly who to talk to, exactly exactly. For the Inga Bretsons, this scrutiny was painful and immediate. Derek's father, Robert Bob Inga Britton, Robert bub Robert Bob.

32:15 I mean, I feel like you have to kind of make the distinction because the grandfather is also Robert, and I feel like older men went by Robert. They didn't do like the shortening, you know, and his grandfather speaks of the devil, Robert Senior, not the actual devil. Hopefully. They were interviewed multiple times and reportedly cooperated fully. Bob even agreed to a polygraph examination. And honestly, I think that hurt him in this case because they never released the results that I could find documented anywhere. In fact, everything that I read about this case said result were never released, and that just reads like a strike against him, even though that means literally nothing.

33:07 Very unfair, and I get I get where people are coming from. That's very unfair. It creates a really negative perception based on absolutely zero point zero zero percent information. Law enforcement stressed early on that they had no evidence whatsoever pointing toward family involvement. I was wondering if he, like, if he failed it, but they kind of knew, like maybe he was just really nervous and like feel the entire thing. I mean, and they can't put this out or people are going to think, yeah, obviously I'm speculating, have no idea your speculation. It could be anything. It really could. Honestly, I was kind of as I was reading that and researching, my thought was kind of I mean, similar vain.

33:51 I thought, I feel like maybe the results were inconclusive or. That, because then people will draw their own conclusions to that. Yeah, in its own way, like inconclusive polygraph results. Kind of like people will twist that both ways. Yeah, they'll say, oh my god, he was so stressed out that, like the results were inconclusive and it's because he's such a mess. Or people will say he's clearly guilty. The results were inconclusive. He's a sociopath and he knows how to at least try to beat the machine. Yeah, not that easy as it is literally taking like baseline vitals.

34:34 It's I mean, I'm glad they didn't. It's put it out there though. If it was inconclusive, well, here's the thing, it wouldn't be admissible in court these days. And there's a reason for that because people react to trauma, stress, all of these situations so differently, and it's clearly not the most reliable data, reliable science to base someone's guilt or innocence on. I really want to take one just to see, because I get really nervous when people are asking me questions whether I know the answer, whether I'm usually I'm not lying. Sometimes I am, but like I get really nervous when I'm telling the truth because I think someone's going to think I'm lying to them.

35:14 No, I a thousand percent as someone who took their permit. Like you know, there's like the driving test when you're ready to get your license, but there's the test that tests your knowledge. And I knew all of the things. But when they started doing the computer test, it would like blink at you and it would tell you every time you got a question wrong, and it would show like the percentage as you proceeded. I took that test an unspecified number of times, so stressful. The Inger Bretsons were not a wealthy family, and they lived a relatively private life. So here's the other thing. Is now, all of a sudden because because they're relatively private people, they're like, oh, what do you got to hide?

36:06 I was just like, there's no winning, No, there's not. In small rural communities like Bonanza, privacy can easily morph into suspicion rumors world none of which were supported by evidence, but the scrutiny lingered, amplified by the lack of answers. I mean to me, I just I just kept thinking. It's like it's the Jean Benet of it, all right, you know it is. Unsolved. Cases just get people going in a way that like, I mean sometimes like reason, is she in the room with us? Like no, no, no, she's not.

36:55 No. I was definitely like thinking of Chiren during this. Yes, that's the other one that comes to mind for me, because I feel like it's just as much as I think that I know what I think occurred in the Kirene Horman case, I feel like I know what I think happened here, but there's no good there's no good answer what child is missing. A significant early lead involved a white Dodge pickup seen near the area where Derek disappeared. A female witness came forward and described a man in his forties or fifties acting strangely, possibly watching families along the tree cutting routes. This man reportedly approached the woman and her daughter, asking odd questions that made her uncomfortable.

37:47 Not exactly sure what those questions were, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination. Not sure how uncomfortable, not sure how odd the questions. I hate that. I hate it. Someone could possibly just be like scoping out a nice family Christmas tree like day. Yep, it's nothing is safe and welcome to hell. It's like this is what you expect if you go like to a city Christmas tree place. You know, like someone snatched my kid because there's so many people around right in the middle of fucking nowhere. Yeah, who the.

38:28 Fuck is grabbing my child? I've been seeing another person for three hours. Her description helped generate a composite sketch. Ooh. The sketch, featuring a broad shouldered man with scruffy hair wearing outdoor gear was circulated widely, and I can see the wheels turning. I want the picture, I bet you do. That's some lumberjack porn. Well, I wasn't thinking that he might be hot. I just wanted to see it. Okay, But here's the thing. In a rural area like Klamoth County with over sixty five thousand residents at the time, many of whom might fit the description, the sketch was unable to produce any solid leads. I could see that because literally everybody matches the description of a broad shouldered man with scruffy hair.

39:22 And outdoor gear lumber jack. Despite repeated tips and follow ups, the identity of the man was never confirmed and the lead ultimately stalled. What I did read is that person faced a lot of intense scrutiny within the community, but they didn't know who it was. Some people knew, Oh that's okay, cannot confirm there. Or some people thought that they knew. Yeah, okay, Wow. There were definitely people that thought that they knew. Maybe some people did. And here's the thing is, generally, if you have concerns and they're like in this situation, you should absolutely come forward, right, But it's all of the people who want to stick their nose in on the back end that weren't involved, didn't see anything, don't really have anything to contribute except their musings.

40:24 Like this guy's kind of alone, are kind of a weirdo. It's probably him. Yeah, he looks like he'd take a kid. And some of. Those people can literally never have a normal life after that. Yeah, it's horrific. It's like a secondary crime. Investigators reviewed known offenders with histories of abducting or harming children in Oregon and neighboring northern California, cross referencing Derek's disappearance against other cases involving opportunistic predators. Detectives evaluated multiple individuals as part of that process, but none emerged as a clear or definitive match. They did find a few guys they were concerned about.

41:15 I bet they did. Yeah, there's a few guys in the world everyone should be concerned about. Well, but like in that particular part of I mean, it's a rural community and there's a lot of other very rural communities that surround it, so it's like it's not a particularly dense population area. But they found a few people they were concerned about. Ultimately, investigators were unable to establish any confirmed connection between Derek's disappearance and known offenders in the surrounding region. There is definitely one person Reddit was very very interested in, as it seems, so we're authorities, But what if Derek encountered an entirely different type of predator. Derek's small size prompted speculation that a wild animal could have taken him. Now, not exactly the squatch theory, right, but mountain lion sidings were common in the region, and the deep woods around Pelican Butte were prime hunting territory.

42:39 But wildlife experts have. By and large and ultimately quickly dismissed the theory. A Mountain Lai attack would typically leave drag marks, blood, or torn clothing. And I can't imagine it's particularly quiet, right, there would have been some sort of signs of a struggle, like even if they're not tall enough to just like pick something up. By their mouth and like, yeah. No, this is a child of a significant height and weight that I mean, they're on their back and they're big. Well, I don't think they're planning to have him ride.

43:20 I feel like it would need to be dragged, like you said, like, there's no way it's just picking it up straight and like, yeah, I don't see that happening. Nope, there did not appear to be any signs of a pursuit because they stalk their prey. Yeah, and little else supported the theory of an animal attack. Unless it's an animal we don't know about. One of the most discussed pieces of evidence came about a week into the search, a folding knife found near the area where Derek was last seen. The knife reportedly belonged to Derek. Oh, I don't know that authorities have ever confirmed that they were able to confirm it belonged to him, but the consensus in general was that the knife is believed to have belonged to Derek. Okay, the blade was missing and the handles showed signs of weather exposure, but no signs of a struggle, so no obvious blood.

44:28 I'm assuming blade was missing. That's strange for a folding, like I'm picturing like kind of a like a pocket knife. Yeah, I don't know how that happens, but I'm assuming if there's some sort of an altercation that occurs where the blade is removed, there should also be blood and they're not finding that allegedly reportedly. I don't know. I don't know. Did he climb a tree? Like was there a tree next to his footprints? Did he like, I mean there's everywhere. Did you try to like stab and then he was not particularly like they didn't report that he was an normally tall child six' four and BECAUSE i could see Where, okay maybe he's struck into a tree and he's trying to climb.

45:20 Whatever, well he's an average sized. Child, YEAH i don't. Know investigators never conclusively determined whether the knife was dropped the day he, vanished or maybe even on an earlier. Outing it's like maybe the family who actually frequently went, hiking, hunting. Fishing maybe he'd actually lost that pocket knife on a unrelated date outing. Adventure where the fuck did the? Blake so many, questions so many. Questions in the months Following derek's, disappearance tips poured in from Across oregon and neighboring, states Including, California, washington And.

46:10 Idaho sightings were reported in public places and remote, areas alike a child Resembling, derek scene with unfamiliar, adults a voice heard in the, woods a fleeting glimpse that sparked. Hope each was, Investigated none were. Substantiated at least one, hoax an anonymous call Claiming derek had been taken to Northern, california diverted significant investigative resources before the caller later admitted the story was. Fabricated, uh that's just. The, worst literally the. Worst there is a special place in.

46:52 Hell false leads like these took a toll on time, funding AND i would argue almost be even more, important like the most important, morale law enforcement and the family and the. COMMUNITY i understand maybe seeing something and it turning out not to be right who it, is. But you actually fabricated. This, yeah that's. Fucked you are sick in the. Head, still investigators pursued every potential, lead knowing that even unlikely information had to be treated, seriously which is in some cases. Unfortunate, yeah because sometimes you go after the wrong one and how could they?

47:40 Know. Okah by early nineteen ninety, nine The Klamouth County Sheriff's office publicly acknowledged That derek's disappearance was being treated as a potential. Abduction the abrupt end of his, tracks the absence physical, evidence and reports of a suspicious vehicle kept concerns about foul play firmly in play play blood, play but without a body or, evidence and without a, suspect investigators found themselves in a familiar and frustrating. Limbo as months turned into, years the case went. Cold by late nineteen ninety, nine the investigation shifted into what law enforcement termed an open but inactive. Status detectives continued to review, tips reevaluate, suspects and examine new forensic evidence or even techniques periodically as they, emerged but without new, evidence there was little forward, moment, BECAUSE i, mean what the hell else you? Do there's sixty five thousand people there at this, time like.

49:06 Interview every single one of them for the third. Time even as the public spotlight appeared to dim on the, case The Klamath falls community continued holding periodic. Vigils the forest Around Pelican butte developed a near mythic, status and despite the lengthening, timeline investigators refused to close the. Case every few. Years Klamath County search And rescue returned To Pelican butte with advances and, equipment held the promise of new. Opportunities ground penetrating radar OR gpr for, short WHICH i wish they had put THE gpr first BECAUSE i would have just said, that do you MEAN gpr if you're?

49:55 Nasty because they think you. Do maybe it as you used to scan embankments suspected provoses it's, crevices. BUT i can NEVER i can't. SAY i can't even say it's. Crevasse, YEAH i don't care if there are two different. Things and areas where melting snow revealed depressions in the, earth no anomalies consistent with human remains or potential burial sites were found as of. Recording they didn't find anyone else, Though i'm like kind of shocked that they didn't stumble on something. ELSE i, Mean i'm glad THEY i mean it's a hard thing because you want them to find the, things but you don't want the. Thing you don't want the things to be there in the first. Place, no. Exactly, Yeah AND i, mean my, god is.

50:46 It do we not already have enough people to find for them to just like stumble upon the remains of somebody? Else and they're Like Jesus. Christ going on in these Ons AND i like, THAT i could understand there's a little bit. Frustration aerial thermal imaging was also employed first during the initial rescue, phase so this wasn't necessarily like a truly new, Technology but later they used it in targeted surveys looking for unusual heat patterns or terrain. Disturbances so they're just kind of using it in a different way at this juncture in the case because they're looking for different.

51:33 Things Because i'm like, this they wouldn't be looking for heat necessarily right late in The. YEAH i think even though you're not emitting like the ninety eight point, six, OH i think the heat signature might be different based on like just frozen soil or snow Versus it. Makes me think of like the body, farms where they put bodies in different conditions to see learn from. It, yes a thousand, Percent yeah. ABSOLUTELY i mean whether the topography so many different things like play a role in like what's going to be the thing that helps, us you, know find potential. Remains it's very interesting AND i mean that's a huge part of, why, like you, know the body farms are such a valuable resource to, science.

52:34 The ones that are done correctly, right and of course again nothing. Emerge each new search brought hope. Followed by a new devastating wave of. HEARTBREAK i don't think any of us can fathom how difficult it would be to just keep reliving this experience, days, weeks, months, years decades. Later, yeah and you want to be. Hopeful it's a hard, balance like you'd want to be hopeful but not too. Hopeful and it's such a dangerous thing like that could just really like the, hurt the.

53:17 Ups and downs of. That i'm not cut at. THAT i don't think anybody. Is it's like you just you just just do it because you just had. To. Yeah, yeah and hopefully they had people to talk. TO i really really hope that there was some therapy involved and, support and there's definitely a lot of community. SUPPORT i think ultimately, people you, KNOW i, mean there's always going to be some trash pandas in the, mix but people came. Through in a lot of ways. Too decades, Later Derek Anger breton's disappearance has become a deeply haunting Person Fick northwest. Mystery the absence of truth and resolution still. Puzzling investigators have never settled on a single. Explanation, instead there are multiple possibilities that continue to be. Considered there's a lot of theories out, There, yeah but there Are these are kind of for those that have followed the case or that have researched, it.

54:26 People that are closely. Connected these remain the primary explanations discussed in connection with the, disappearance none of which has ever been confirmed. Or entirely ruled. Out they've never said any one theory is for sure not what. Happened that's crazy because they just have no. Clue some pieces of, evidence you could almost just depending on, perspective you could arrive at multiple contradictory. Theories one possibility is That derek succumbed to the elements which introduces a lot of variables because succumb to the elements when how given the brutal winter, conditions exposure was considered early, on it's very. Possible, however many have questioned this, explanation noting that multiple quite a few snow melt cycles have passed without the recovery of, remains, clothing or any additional personal.

55:38 Effects you asked about that pretty early. On the terrain itself may have proven treacherous in one form or, another. Particularly for a. Child yet repeated surges Of Pelican butte and other suspected areas have produced no evidence supporting this, explanation so they have explored any sort, of you, know small. Cave systems in the. Area perhaps the most persistent and most troubling possibility is. Abduction the sudden end Of derek's, footprints the reported but unconfirmed snowplow, siding and the unresolved lead involving a suspicious man and a White dodge pickup have kept this theory in.

56:27 Consideration law enforcement has stated the abduction theory cannot be ruled. Out SO i feel, like doesn't really it doesn't mean a whole, lot because they're just saying we're not ruling it. Out BUT i think it's telling that for certain theories they specifically address like we're not ruling this. Out, YEAH i think that says. Something in a lot of. Cases as of the most recent public, statements the case remains. Open detective continue to review tips as they come in and periodically re examine the evidence using modern investigative. Tools derek's disappearance is also compared against unidentified remains when. Appropriate despite decades of, effort no explanation has yet answered the question of what happened On pelicanpute that day In december of nineteen ninety. Eight some, cases and if you're asking, me far too, many fade quietly into archival. Boxes derek's disappearance has remained alive in the public consciousness because it had all the elements of a nightmare that felt too, real a child vanishing in, seconds a trail ending abruptly in untouched, snow and a wilderness that seemed to swallow.

57:58 Evidence Hall rick's disappearance remains one Of oregon's most confounding missing child. Mysteries bursts of media attention over the years have carried two side. Effects renewed public, interest often generating fresh but ultimately unproductive tips to this, point as well as emotional re traumatization for the. Family for, investigators the exposure proved to be both a blessing and a. Curse fresh eyes sometimes means fresh, perspectives but they can also mean sifting through, noise, speculation and occasionally cruel or outlandish.

58:47 Theories derek's case is frequently cited in search and rescue training discussions and cold case. Retrospectives it's one of many such cases serve as a cautionary tale of how quickly a missing person scenario can present unique or unexpected, variables evolved throughout, investigation and ultimately turn. Cold derek's disappearance is one of the most heart wrenching unsolved cases that lingers at the, crossroads the possibilities ranging wildly between wilderness accident or criminal, abduction refusing to settle neatly into either. Category the physical environment offers one, explanation the behavioral evidence seemingly points toward. Another neither is fully, satisfying yet both remain.

59:45 Possible both seem, incomplete and WHEN i say, BOTH i mean it's not like there's only two, theories, unfortunately. But two that seem like the most, likely. But one in disputable fact remains an eight year old boy vanished from An oregon, mountainside and in the decades, since not a single definitive trace has ever been. Found in The Pacific, northwest where forrests hold their stories, Close derek's absence remains one of the, deepest coldest, mysteries a lingering ache for his family and friends and their, community a question without, answer and for those who still follow the, case one hope endures that someday someone will, speak or something will be, found and the silence that Swallowed Pelican butte on That december afternoon will finally mercifully break until the Day derek's case is. Solved this is a call to.

1:00:52 REMEMBER i don't know if they have kept them all these, years, yes BUT i remember reading an interview with his, mother and just off the top of my, head just from pure, RECOLLECTION i think this was maybe in two thousand and, four and at the time she told the interviewer that. They still have His christmas presence. And they've just they have an Artificial christmas tree that they had put up that. YEAR i don't know if they've kept the tree up the whole time or if they've just kept the. Presence but she talked about how now the wrapping is starting to get old and it's like starting to show signs of where because it's. Old, yeah and you, know she sort of talked about how they feel and you, know more specific about you, know how she feels and what she. Hopes AND i think the fact that she's talking about his unopened presence from That CHRISTMAS i think, it you, know sort of speaks to what her hope has always been that someday he will walk back through that. Door and they've they've the

1:02:23 family is given somewhat, limited but they've given interviews to that effect that you, know please if if you're out, there if you have, him you, know different iterations of that over the. Years we just we just wanted him to come. Home that like broke my heart when you said that they have The christmas present. Still, yeah but, like, yeah of course they. Do it's just too. Much but it's also the kind of thing THAT i feel like it tugs people's heart strings enough to, like if you hear about this case and maybe you you, know somehow know, anything that's the detail that does it for.

1:03:14 You, yeah, Really, ROW i can't imagine, too Like christmas for them now is, Forever, yeah like a reminder of what they don't. Have it's, like we don't want to talk about sad stuff On, christmas but like a lot of people have sad memories On. Christmas and it's just it is how it, is what it, Is, like it can't always be happy. Three weeks Before christmas, essentially like how does that not change that holiday for? You for? Ever And i'm sure at some point as an extended family in, particular it's, like you, know you have to find ways to cope and you want to still be able to have traditions and you, know things that are meaningful about the day for. You but, YEAH i mean it'll never be the. Same how could it?

1:04:10 Be, wow we're not going to do the tarot video for the altar because we're. Lazy, apologies It's. Christmas we're doing what we. Want she's shuffling over. There if you don't know me by now and you don't trust, me, okay working really hard to shuffle these. Cards she will take a video to post, though and us, like just you make your pet that uns like you keep fingering this side and it feels like it's over there over, Here yeah, yeah six of. Wanes, okay it's a bunch of beds. Flying, well you know HOW i feel about, birds the winged. Fucks that's. Right it kind of, LIKE i, KNOW i think it's clouds under, them but it could be. Snow it's so. FUNNY i was, thinking like, humhm that could go really either. Way and the wands on, Top, okay this is like a, stretch but like the ones on top look like.

1:05:09 Trees they, do because it's like almost like a chevron. Pattern, yeah, yeah, okay six of. Ones our keywords are, victory, success, recognition and. SATISFACTION i got none of, THAT i. KNOW i mean maybe this is like what's like the family wanted out of. It maybe maybe it's yet to. Come i'm going to speak. Hopefully the six of ones is the victory. Card you face, challenges won the, fight and deserve the accolades you. Receive success and good fortune are. YOURS i think this card reads as ultimately like hopeful in the way THAT i want to interpret.

1:05:56 It but it definitely made me think of like what you said about the family wanting to be, Hopeful and THEN i got this sense of like the cards said that this case is really sad and It's christmas time and they wanted to give everyone a really nice. Card maybe it sounds, insane but that's what my brain. Said maybe the six of ones promises a time of happiness and. Fulfillment you've marshaled your. Energies that's. Interesting that feels like a phrase that you would use for, somebody like overcoming the elements in a.

1:06:37 WAY i don't. Huh i'm not suggesting that's what's happened in this, case BUT i feel like the imagery like it's there for. Me that's WHY i really want to know if he freaking wrote his name on things out, there because that would mean someone. ELSE i mean that not conclusively that something didn't take, him but, right but it does sort of, GOSH i, mean it's just so many things that, like if we had a better, idea you, know maybe that changes the timeline and. Sort of some of the details that we thought, mattered maybe they. Don't maybe the person who was driving around in a white creepy truck being a creep creeping, around maybe that guy means.

1:07:20 Nothing maybe he's. Everything maybe maybe he carved his name into a tree with that knife and broke it you. Know WHAT i, Mean, like, YEAH i mean like, Before, yeah you've marshaled your energies during times of struggle and overcome. Obstacles now you're on top and can expect recognition and. Rewards you feel good about yourself and your. Accomplishments sometimes this card shows recovery dot dot dot for dramatic effect from an illness or. Setback but, recovery that's that specific. Word. Yeah obviously we talked about that balance of being hopeful and not being too, hopeful and it just makes me feel like they're, LIKE i want them to find.

1:08:09 Something the Thoth. Tara labels the sixth Of wand's. Victory the Writer Wait smith deck shows a triumphant horseman riding at the head of a jubilant. Procession Sellador, dolly, however takes a different approach in his. Deck his horseman rides, alone signifying an inner conquest rather than besting an opponent in the outer. WORLD i feel like my read on that was IMMEDIATELY i CAN'T i can't even begin to imagine what this family has been, through but the fact that they have managed to just find anything resembling hope and strength in this at, least you, know in what they're presenting to the outside.

1:09:05 WORLD i feel like it's. Like this inner battle and for, them like finding that, peace whatever that looks, like regardless of you, know the ultimate outcome in their lifetimes versus whatever we might think of as being like the, justice you, know or or the resolution in this, lifetime but like. Finding a way to just to just. Cope AND i, think you, know. Oftentimes like And i've caught myself wanting to say move, on, Right AND i think that's it's such a misnomer because especially when when it's, unsolved it's, Like i'm, sorry how do you move on from something that's? Unsolved and this is the person that you care, ABOUT i think all you're doing is. Coping AND i think that's the thing THAT'S i think in a lot of these, CONVERSATIONS i feel like there's so much about the language that we use around loss and especially in cases like, this that it's, LIKE i CAN'T i can't fathom what it looks like to move.

1:10:18 On, YEAH i think you are simply. Coping And i'm sure there are people that do just DECIDE i have to sort of pick up my life whatever that looks, like AND i have to move on and for some people that's you, know maybe just ultimately self, preservation but coping feels like the more accurate. WORD i feel like moving through is like moving on is not what it, is just moving through it like BECAUSE i don't think you're getting up every, day, yeah and just doing what you need to. Do and that's not to say you can't have like joy and happiness in your life still and though you've gone through something, tragic but it's not a, breakup, right like moving on like.

1:11:06 THAT i just feel like the like the way that we interpret that, language it's so different than WHAT i would picture in this. Case AND i understand, that like some, terms you, know we use them in different, applications and it can be all about tone and it can be all about you know, what. What else are we? Saying what other resources are we offering? People BUT i just don't THINK i don't think THAT'S i don't think that's the. Thing, YEAH i don't. Know maybe in some cases. And I'm I'm i'm realizing in this, Moment i've probably said moving on in connection to another, case but this it just like the language of that just feels so specifically not, It.

1:12:00 Yeah not at all not when you have your yeah Sounds christmas presents still, Yeah and maybe maybe that's all it. Is BUT i just feel like sometimes you get a sense of you just get a. FEELING i get a. FEELING i want that little baby book right now SO i could see what kind of birdss. Are so they're sandhill. Cranes she wasn't always the, leader but she still felt the way of, responsibility knowing her turn would. Come when she took the, front she would spread her wings, wide shaping the air to ease the passage of the cranes behind. Her she would read the, winds finding updrafts and tailwinds that would carry them higher and further despite their. Fatigue she would scan the, ground seeking the safety and restoration of a, hidden rich pond with frogs and. Snails she would shepherd the formation of cranes to their, destination to warm wetland where they would survive the. Winter she would guide them and they would. Succeed, wow she's literally talking about someone like guiding someone or guiding you, know they're heard through the winter to like.

1:13:08 Survive that's kind of. Wow interesting that talks About, yeah the winter. There, Yeah AND i think it was scanning like scanning the ground remind me of like. The health and it described AND i forget what the word was that was, used but it was almost like scanning like a. Crevasse AND i was, like, OH i know who knew the little book pulled it out for us. Today, yeah she would scan the ground seeking the safety and restoration of a hidden rich. Pond hidden, hidden, sorry a hidden pond rich with frogs and stalelshen rich. Pond that would be rich. Pond but it's like.

1:13:48 Hidden but like same thing, though it's like you, know you hit pay, dirt like searching for things in the air. Nuts that's. WILD i love. THAT i love when those kind of like have like so obviously the full interpretation doesn't really totally, fit BUT i think we talked about how we want it wanted to be on the more positive, side and it kind of. Fit, yeah but then it like talking about the. Winters, yeah BUT i feel like the vibe is kind of still the. SAME i feel like it's this overwhelmingly like kind OF i DON'T i, mean. Does it just feel to you at? All like it's kind of like don't give, Up LIKE i don't, KNOW i want to believe that we are going to get some. SOMETHING i feel, like is this answered in our? Lifetime LIKE i. Hope so maybe that's just me being, hopeful BUT i.

1:14:41 Always want to think that with all the unsolved, ones all the unsolved, ones you, know we've grown up, WITH i always want to think that someday something will come. Out. Yeah, Well Merry, Christmas Happy, hollidays you, Guys Just Christmas. Day if you don't, CELEBRATE i hope you're enjoying a nice free day off because unless you're. Working and then if you're, working immensely appreciate your working and they better be paying you time and a. Half. BIBE i used to Wear. CHRISTMASES i get. It, YEAH i have a creepy as. Day we'll see you On magnet say it'll Be New Year's. Day, Yeah New Year's. Day should we just cancel the pod because it's like nurse your hangover. Baby, yeah let's let's preemptively say we're not going to release the podcast that.

1:15:30 Day have a Great New Year's. Day we're taking the fucking day. Off. Bitches she's on The nottay list For lion To. US i thought i'd save san to the trap