Bridal Dreams, True Crime Nightmares: Susi Larsen's Murder

0:00 When she didn't show up for work the following day, her co-workers and fiance knew immediately that something was way off. This is the part of the movie in the beginning where everything is nice and planning a wedding and everything is wonderful. I almost forgot that this was going to be a bad story. And then now she's gone missing and I'm like, oh yeah, the sucks. Yeah, let's just suck. [Music] Hi Chris. Hi, Caitlyn.

0:40 Hello creepy people. Hello. Did I do it right? You did good. Yeah, it's, you know, it's just the... I've listened to enough of these. That's right, that's right. It's, you know, it's just the Mrs. Doubtfire. Hello. Pretty good. Yeah, pretty good. You're the expert here. I mean, I've been doing it for a while now. If you're new to our creepy corner of the world, this is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal and all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest. We do a tarot reading at the end for deeper insight into this episode, so make sure you stick around if you're into that.

1:25 They are into it. I think it's been established. Yeah. Just making sure. Oh yeah. No, we say that all the time. We're like, you know, if you're into it and you are. Oh, I'm into it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I can't believe it's taken this long to drag you on to the show. Yeah. A lot of behind the scenes stuff. No kidding. But now I'm sitting in the hot seat and... Yeah. A little awkward. I don't know what to do with my hands. Oh, classic. Classic. Well, for those of you that don't know, well, first of all, this is not Cassie.

2:09 I think we were pretty clear about that at the top. Fintel. Yeah. Yeah. This is my fiancee. Chris. How's it been next week? Yeah. That's right. Exactly. By the time this comes out, I believe it's a bit of a coincidence. I believe we will actually be married. So... Fintel. Exactly. Unless he gets really upset about this episode tonight. We'll see how this goes. Yeah. We'll just see how this goes. I do sort of have a knack for stumbling upon. I wasn't looking for this per se, but I think I found what I imagine is probably your particular brand of nightmare fuel.

2:57 So... Oh, okay. Yeah. So you're welcome. Yeah. I think I'm ready. Okay. I'll do okay. He's like, "Yeah. I've been listening to your episodes for a while now. I think I know what to expect." And yet every week, Cassie walks in and out of here, just a totally different person. Yeah. She does look different to me every single week. I don't know what you've been doing to that poor woman. I know. I know. Well, she's going to get to hit the easy button with this one. Yeah, next. Yeah. She has already read the notes for this case.

3:38 Oh, okay. Yeah. I have not read them. I know. That's by side. Yeah. Usually you're the one that reads them for me, so. I do. Proofreads for me a lot. I think there's not much to proofread, honestly. Yeah. I'm just getting a sneak peek. Yeah. Sometimes he catches some really egregious typos. I am a grammar hound for that stuff. It's not even grammar. It's just like who was typing this? I drunk monkey. I was going to say you, but I want to be careful what I say here.

4:20 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Well, I don't think we really have any business. Nothing that's new and pressing anyways. So we're recording this after dark. It's not actually dark outside, but basically what we mean to say, we're recording this at EOD and to business day. So, you know, Chuck Chuck. We've already had a long day at work. Yeah. We know. We usually do this on the weekend. That's right. Yeah. It'll like all day, all day for one of our weekend days, typically.

5:02 This last weekend we got to play hooky for the batch party. Yeah. That was a lot of fun. We went to Hotel Oregon over in McMinnville. We'll post pictures and some videos and some fun stuff from the weekend. We're looking at right now one of the fun stuff. Oh, that candle. Yeah, my gift from one of my gifts from Cassie. She did herself. I have my bridal yeti, of course. I'm jealous. I know. Bridal beverages. Very important. Gotta stay hydrated. Yeah. No. No. So.

5:42 And we'll set up the tarot camera here in a little bit and everybody will get to see this very saucy candle. I don't know what to say about that. It's making me a little flush. I'm blushing over here. Oh. My virgin eyes. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Do you think anyone's buying that, sir? I'm doing my best to sell it. Okay. Well, let's see if anyone's buying. Okay. I'm going to get into the story for today so that we can hopefully get to bed before midnight tonight.

6:28 Yeah. We'll see. Fingers crossed. So likely. I mean, there we go. Crossing them a little bit harder, just to really make sure. Ugh. Let's not sink in. Okay. The summer of 1996 was an incredibly happy time for 24-year-old graphic designer, Susi Larsen. At the time she lived in the Lake Oswego area and was preparing for her wedding that September to her fiance, Keith Hippley. Wow. Okay. Yeah. I see why you saved this episode for me. Yeah.

7:08 I was like, you have got to be kidding me. We are preparing for a wedding. That's true. Yeah. I mean, and how strange, like, you know, right here in our very own Pacific Northwest, neck of the woods. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not far from home. Yeah. I wonder if there are any other parallels. It's like there is. Actually, I don't know that there are tons. Some not far from, you know, a lot of places that we know of and have visited, but... Oh, it's enough for me. Yeah. Yeah.

7:48 Yeah. That's enough. That's enough. We don't need more. Yeah. The couple had met when they both worked at Mattel in California. She worked for the Barbie Division and he was on with Hot Wheels. On brand. Yeah. Very gender normative, but like, you know, that's okay. Those that knew Susi best, like her sister Mindy, as well as her father, described her as optimistic and friendly if it times a bit too trusting. Okay. Okay. Sorry, like, there could have been like at least one more parallel.

8:31 Arguably. Yeah. That reminds me of somebody I can't quite put my finger on it. You can drink if you want to. Oh, okay. Yeah. You can drink in a lot of this. Yeah. You can still drink. I got to get through this. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not a professional like you and Cassie. You're doing just fine. On August 27th, she went to visit a male acquaintance that she'd met through mutual friends. He had reportedly agreed to make her a pair of earrings for her upcoming wedding. Some source material says that he was supposed to be making jewelry for her bride's mates.

9:16 Okay. So I don't know either, either or maybe both. So it's a little unclear. I think that's one particular detail that like detectives are probably like, yeah, yeah, yeah, jewelry, you know, like cool. You shopping. You shopping. Exactly. This man was known within her friends group, including her roommate, though Susie personally didn't know him very well. Oh, this is so funny. Okay. So this is if my notes, at the time that I was writing this, it says, I just got my own wedding earrings this week.

10:02 I don't think I even knew that. Yeah, they're really pretty. So maybe I'll have to grab them so that we can take a picture with them on the tarot altar. There you go. Yeah. When she didn't show up for work the following day, her co-workers and fiance knew immediately that something was way off. This is the part of the movie in the beginning where everything is nice and they're planning and wedding and everything is wonderful. I almost forgot that this was going to be a bad story. And then now she's gone missing and I'm like, oh, yeah, the sucks. Yeah, it's just like it does suck.

10:42 Yeah. I know it's it. It kind of hit me partway through because I was like, oh, you know, thinking about our wedding planning and then I was like, oh, that's kind of a bummer. She just was a really reliable person. Obviously, it sounds like loved her job. Graphic design sounds like such a cool job. Especially in the 90s. Yeah. That was real new. Yeah. So, I mean, she had a really cool job. She lived in this, you know, hip little part of town. She was about to get married. She was just really crushing it lifelys.

11:24 So it just wasn't like her to not show up to work. Yeah, sure. No one seemed to have knowledge of her whereabouts between her appointment on the 27th and the following day. Her family and friends were quick to act on their concerns and they were furiously putting up flyers all over the Lake Oswego and Tualatin area pretty much right away. While concerned about her inexplicable disappearance, they were still somewhat hopeful that she would be found and have the wedding of her dreams to look forward to. Of course. Yeah. And of course, a lifetime of wedded bliss with the man that she loved so dearly.

12:08 There had been a strange encounter on Goat Mountain East in Molalla involving a group of youths, four days prior, but little information seems to be available about what specifically occurred. So I don't know if they just encountered each other on a hiking trail, but law enforcement determined the individuals and whatever that interaction was had nothing to do with her disappearance fairly quickly. Hooligans. Hooligans. I know. Hooligans and their shenanigans. Yeah. They turned their attention to exploring other avenues with the case.

12:50 The man she'd planned to meet that day, Billy Oatney Jr. was first interviewed by police on September 2nd, where he claimed he hadn't seen her in three weeks, which is a little weird for somebody who probably saw her about a week ago, but that's cool. The math ain't math, and. Yeah, the math ain't math, and that's right. Not even if you use girl math. Seems a little odd, but maybe they didn't meet as planned. I mean, I think they kind of had to take a look at that, you know. Even though the friend said, oh yeah, she was supposed to go meet up with him.

13:32 It's possible. It just didn't work out. It was still early in the investigation, so law enforcement hadn't gathered much to go on and likely had little more than vague suspicions about Billy's statement. However, that would quickly change. A chain reaction was set in motion by a routine traffic stop in Milwaukee. They're never routine. They're. They're all but routine. They're always routine. That is how all of these guys get caught. All of them like broken tail light. Yeah, God. Just, you know, like maybe make sure that your tail lights work.

14:13 You know, like they always say like if you're going to be committing crime, like make sure your taxes are straight, make sure your brake lights work. I don't want to be accused of creating like a how to guide here, but like it's a little infuriating that people are that dumb. Seems like common sense. Yeah, but you know, it stays stupid. That's a thing I've heard. It's working out for the rest of it. It really is. It really is. The officer noted that when he pulled Billy over that his license plate light was not working. Wow. Yeah. That's not a thing that you usually get pulled over for.

14:58 Yeah, it didn't sound like it to me. Sure. This wasn't a tip. You know, nothing that I read indicated that they were really sitting on this guy at this point and Milwaukee. I don't know that they were involved in any efforts with the case at that point either. So I think this is just like a dumb luck thing where maybe there was something else about the vehicle that looked suspicious or yeah, I don't know. But a cursory search on the ID he presented produced nothing. Still usually these days the police have bigger fish to fry.

15:41 I would say. Wilford Johnston, his passenger, was a different story. You might call him that bigger fish at this stage at least as he had an outstanding warrant for a parole violation at the time. So they're like, oh, great. It's a two-fer. Nice. Yeah. I don't know if they ticketed him for the license plate light thing, but I don't know. Maybe. Maybe? We're going to say it happened. Yeah. Honestly, again, like bigger fish to fry here, but I was curious. I just, you know, I felt like there were more important things to focus on.

16:25 The officer also spotted a duffel bag that the pair appeared to be particularly fixated on, which is so funny because I feel like that's like a little kid who's like trying to sneak a cookie or something and they're like, like looking at it but trying not to look like they're looking at it. Right. And it's always super obvious. A duffel bag outside of the gym is always suspicious. I feel like, yeah. And they apparently didn't look like they were more than likely coming from or to the gym. So Billy allowed the officer to search the bag when asked, which is another one of the dumbest things that I can think of somebody doing in his shoes, but he inventoryed the items inside a replica gun and a large double-bladed knife along with a pellet gun, a stun gun and duct tape.

17:32 Oh, and also a lock pick and binoculars, some large scissors and also condoms. Uh-huh. Okay. So nothing to worry about. Yeah. Like what the fuck? Carry on. So creepy as like that isn't no. Just I don't I don't want to know. No rope. I you know what? I was thinking I'm like, there's no gloves. There's no rope. So it's fine. It's probably fine. Yeah. But I seriously, when I was reading this, I'm like, that is almost as creepy as finding a long buried Israel keys.

18:14 Kill kit. Like except this dumbass apparently thought his duffel bag contained no red flags. He was like, there's no gloves. There's no rope. It's fine. This is my state like I take this with me everywhere. Who doesn't? I mean, yeah. Got one in my trunk right now. Chris is like, I have nothing to say about that. Chris is like, I have second thoughts. Now, as probably literally no one is surprised to learn, these two jackalopes are firmly planted on law enforcement's radar.

18:56 They had just become persons of interest in Susi's case. Obviously, it wasn't like there was an official announcement at the time, but anyone who was on the fringes of this front group that had an awareness of Susi's scheduled meeting with Billy. And then his subsequent questioning, as well as his friends arrest, frankly, they had to be shitting their pants. It's not looking good. No, it's not looking good at all. Law enforcement already had Wilford, his buddy in custody due to his outstanding warrant. When they listened to taped conversations between Wilford and Billy from jail, they learned that their prisoner's friend may have involvement in the disappearance of Susie Larson.

19:47 Those dummies. I do, do people not just, you don't know that those calls are recorded? I feel like in the movies, when they pick up the phone, it even says, as it's dialing, this call is being recorded. Is that not a thing? I have no idea. I need to get your dad on the call. I have a lot of questions. Yeah, he might know. You would probably know. Billy's landlord consented to a search following law enforcement's dedicated efforts keep close observation of the two as they built their case. Oddly, Billy had moved out of his apartment shortly after Susi's disappearance.

20:30 I mean, I don't think it's that weird. People like to move. Yeah. But maybe he had already made those plans. He seems like a discerning dude. Keep in mind, there are some limitations when it comes to forensic evidence and testing at this point. They found blood on the carpet in the apartment that was a match to Susie's blood type. Blood type is still a pretty broad. We're getting there, but not quite. Yeah. We feel like we're getting on to something. They were then also able to get a search warrant for his vehicle where they recovered the previously described creepy, presumed on a live in kit.

21:18 Law enforcement continued their surveillance efforts, now seemingly singularly focused on Billy, seeing as they already had Wilford in custody. And then they already cleared those meddling kids. Right. The hooligans. Yeah, the hooligans and their shenanigans. It's unclear to me when the following details were uncovered in the investigation efforts, but local law enforcement learned some disturbing details about some of the time that Billy spent abroad. A Broadway. He had served in the military overseas in Japan.

22:01 During his time in the service, he'd been arrested and convicted for assault, as well as attempted murder following a vicious attack on a fellow service member. Well, okay. Yeah. Little aggressive, even for the military. Not a great sign. He had slit the man's throat. Whoa, okay. So like actual attempted murder. Oh, yeah. Not like I beat you up a little too bad. Yeah, no, this isn't con air. Yeah, yeah. That's the one where he beats the guy up too badly and goes to prison because he's a deadly weapon, right?

22:41 Oh God, that does sound like a Nicholas Cage movie. It is a Nicholas Cage movie. Well, no, I know that, but like just the premise, like my hands are registered weapons. They're not registered, but you can actually be, I looked into this recently and I can't say why, but I did look into this recently. You can be charged even if you don't have like a physical traditionally speaking weapon. Your hands can be considered weapons, but registering them is not a thing. So for all of you weirdos on that corner of the internet saying how you registered.

23:22 Those words, I might have to do that. Again, I say weirdos. Oh, thanks. Oh gosh. Based on the charges levied against Billy, it's safe to say that his victim in that case survived, but it's hard to imagine something more horrific and traumatic. Billy was sentenced to 22 years, but only served 13, which what is going on? Like we've got one service member attacking another. He's sentenced to the better part of 25 years and he serves like a little over half of it.

24:08 Like if the military is kind of taking that, that sort of a stance or really like let them off easy. What? What? No, maybe they didn't like the other guy. Kind of a dick. They're like still like we kind of get it. Yeah, yikes. I mean, maybe following his release, he moved to Portland because that's where that's where you should go. He'd only been released and in turn living in the local area for just a few short months at the time of Susi's disappearance.

24:48 Back to the search for Susi. 13 days after her disappearance, Susi was found. She was discovered at Champoeg Park with telltale signs of a truly horrendous attack. Her body was found bound and gagged. She'd been suffocated after having endured a vicious sexual assault and torture with a stun gun. Well, that is not great. It's not great, but you know what is great is that they already know where that stun gun is.

25:32 Okay, well, that is great. Yeah. Her family naturally was absolutely devastated to learn of her murder and the details of her death. I mean, to lose a loved one that way, for them to be murdered, but for it to be such a horrific murder, pretty awful. They held her funeral and buried her on what would have been her wedding day that September.

26:13 Why that day? I mean, typically when someone passes away, you have a relatively finite window. In this case, I would presume they did not do something like open casket, which really gets the clock moving. But yeah, I mean, that it's really important for a lot of people to be able to start to have a sense of closure and to begin to heal. In the short span of just a couple of weeks, they had endured the depredation and complete obliteration of every hope or dream for Susie's future.

27:06 And I know that everybody that is taken in this manner, the same can be said for their families, but it just seems so sad because it's like, you know, she was just at this next big point in her life. Right. And it happened right before that. I mean, yeah, the timing is not good. No, it's awful. I'm not sure there's any good timing to be murdered in that way, but yeah, that's unfortunate. It just feels particularly sad because of that.

27:50 Her mother Shannon said she could do nothing when told of her daughter's death except scream. The days, weeks and months following her death have been endless, emotional thoughts of her, suffering, and then taken away completely. It just gives me the heaps and the jeeps. It's the date that Billy's lawyer told him to come forward and share the facts of the case as he knew them to law enforcement.

28:34 By this time, he and his girlfriend had hired the private attorney who it should be noted did not have a background or experience in practicing criminal law. What did he have a background in? I'm not really sure. I think they probably just found someone that they could afford. They probably just felt like it was important to have representation. Okay. I don't think the girlfriend had to worry that long about having representation. I think pretty quickly she was like, okay, so I'm going to go now. Bye. Probably a good idea. Yeah.

29:15 A wise choice. He said he'd initially stayed quiet because he didn't have a solid alibi. It was afraid that he would be implicated in the murder based on the circumstances. You know, like it happened in his apartment. Can't have that. No. Although I will say granted, it's all probably people that are intoxicated to some degree. But like, how is being at a bar in a very public place for, you know, a set period of time, not a good alibi? You would think. You would think. Please ask for permission to play part of his recorded statement to Wilford and Billy agreed.

30:02 A lot dumb things happening here. When he learned that Billy had turned on him, Wilford was angry and finally decided to provide new information to the police. He'd been staying with Billy in the days leading up to Susi's disappearance and murder. After hearing the recording of Billy's conversation with the authorities, he recalled the events sharing a markedly different story from that of Billy. No way. I know what? He's like, no, I definitely didn't do that.

30:43 Wilford said that on the very night of her disappearance, Billy had told Wilford that he had been on a date with Susie when he brought her back to his place. Okay. Survey says that's a lie. Wilford recalled hearing a stun gun from the other room, which is probably not a sound most of us are likely to hear every day. I don't know that if that noise came from another room and out of context that I would be able to readily identify it.

31:24 But I would have questions. I would have follow up questions and I would go to seek that information and probably immediately be stun gunned. So that's... I would be shocked if I heard that. You did not. You know how we like that. You know how we feel about dad jokes. In any case, it got his attention. He came into the room to find Billy on top of Susi on the living room floor with the stun gun to her neck. Okay. Just casual. That's...

32:05 We do that like every other Tuesday. Yeah. Up to this point, Wilford is only guilty of whatever past crimes he had committed. And maybe also of having a slightly creepy friend, which if I were the leader of this country, I would make it a crime. Being creepy is a crime. No, we can't say that. We don't like creepy people. Yeah. No, but I mean like creepy in a bad way. You can be creepy like in a good way. Like creepy cute. Creepy spooky.

32:45 Creepy. Just don't be a creep. Don't yeah, don't be a creep. Don't be like an in-sau creep. Don't be a... There's... The list goes on and on. All of the other adjectives that I'm going to slide next to creep are very heteronormative for the males in the audience and... Oh, oh, okay. And they're all gone. Poof. I know. All three of them. Like that one time, we got a response to a tweet that we put out from a male listener.

33:31 And he was like, "Hey, there's five of us." Yeah, that's funny. Instead of intervening for Susi's safety or simply removing himself from the situation to get help, Wilford helped Billy tie Susie up. As one does. I like how your face said one thing and then your mouth's another one. And somewhere in the middle, you were just like, "I'm so uncomfortable." Very much, yeah. Billy then proceeded to cut off her clothing and sexually assault her, which is just...

34:13 Trying to stick to the basics and the facts of the case on this and not be too terribly graphic, but even knowing some of the details of the attack before hearing Wilford's recounting of events, it's truly shocking. Which, I mean, just a series of events and the fact that like, "Okay, maybe you didn't know this guy was going to do something like that." But then you're presented with this situation and... Little to me, girl. Yeah. Well, bet. I mean, it seems like you're into it.

34:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're part of this. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to go around throwing out the word accomplice, you know, all Willie Nilly, but allegedly. Allegedly. Or allegendly. No, okay. I like that. We made that word up recently, so. Oh, okay. Yeah, that was Cassie's brainchild. You guys make up a lot of words. We do. It's hard to keep up. I know. I know. When the ideas are this good, you just got to roll with it. Gotta let them out. Gotta let the people know. You gotta let the people know. You guys, we have something really exciting to share with you.

35:37 Let's hear a few words from our new pod besties. A little bit de todo, though, is a podcast about a little bit of everything, for curious minds of all ages. I'm Christina, and you can tune in every weekday to learn about things like Cinco de Mayo, Chihuahua's, and volcanoes in Latin America. Those are bite-sized, 10 minutes long or less, and always Latin American-related. Subscribe and follow a little bit de todo podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Check them out, creepy people. You can find their info in our show notes. Maybe because there's a little part of me that even knowing how the story ends, had hope that rather than going along with his friend, that Wilford would help her.

36:20 There were so many opportunities for this person to, I mean, even the point of after this has all been horrifically perpetrated on her. There are so many opportunities for this man to go, "Fuck, this is awful, and I'm probably going to spend the rest of my life in prison because I did, in fact, by my own confession. I've admitted to this that I played a very significant role in this crime."

37:00 He could have done that, and that would have even been slightly redeemable. Really slight. Very slight slinest. Yeah. But there's so many opportunities for this to have not gone this far. For this person to have tried to have done the right thing somewhere along the line. Quite to the contrary, he assisted very directly in her heartbreaking fate. During the attack, the men forced Susi to provide her ATM card and pin.

37:42 Wilford went to an ATM to withdraw cash and returned to find Billy attempting to kill her. He returned to find that the victim had blood on her face and was not moving. This next portion is from Court testimony, and I will say that it is rough. Have we not got to the rough part stuff? Yeah. I know. Really? That's pretty much what Cassie says like every week. Yeah. No, it's pretty rough. This really just has more to do with the difficulty of hearing the testimony of multiple parties involved.

38:31 Yeah. Okay. Let's get into it. Wilford testified that Billy told him upon his return that he had hit and choked the victim because she quote, "Just wouldn't have sex with me." Well, that is a reason. Yeah. Not a good one. Yeah. He further stated that he had tried to kill her, but that she just wouldn't die.

39:11 Wilford stated that he then helped Billy as he held a plastic bag over Susi's head until she stopped breathing. The following day, Billy Oatney Jr. was officially placed under arrest. Meanwhile, Wilford negotiated a plea deal. In 1998, Billy was found guilty and sentenced to death. The end. Just kidding. Yeah. No. I was like, that's an abrupt ending. Yeah, you're like, that's so weird. You didn't talk about the trial or that's like very little testimony.

39:56 It's very little that you've said about the whole case. Susi's sister Mindy told Oatney at his sentencing, "I hate you for what you did to my sister and I hate you for what you did to my family. My hope is that you will feel one ounce of the pain and fear that Susi felt. And every day to the day of your execution, your life is a living hell." "Here's to hope." Yeah. Susi's father, Ted, also spoke at the sentencing stating, "She trusted and she saw the good in everyone.

40:41 That innocent trust ultimately led to her death." How dare you? Your legacy will be one of murder, one of rape, one of satamy, one of pain. You have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this life and never have. I hope you rotten hell. That was a good speech. I think so too. I think a lot of times the statements that we hear from families tend to send her more on forgiveness in one respect or another.

41:26 And I think part of the reason why we do is that it's really difficult to think about being able to forgive someone that did this to a person that you love. Right. And I think, and you know, if that's what they've done, how they feel, that's great and all, because forgiveness is often to help themselves, which is what they need. But no, I prefer hate. Yeah. I hate that guy. Yeah. I know. Don't know him. Never met him. Hope to never. Still hate him.

42:06 Still hate him. Yeah. That's the party line in this house. And the dad's right. That's his legacy. That's all I know about this guy. Literally the only thing, you know, he is a piece of shit, yeah, every which way, every which way from here to Japan. On his way back to his seat, Larsen whispered, a clearly heard obscenity to Oatney, who replied, pardon? Pretty ballsy for a man who can now only be kept safe by the state. And there would not be a place you could run to that you would be safe for me if you did this to one of my family members.

42:55 Yeah. Not that we're advocating for vigilante justice or violence to be clear. When Oatney addressed the court, because of course he's gonna, he again took the opportunity to blame the crime on his buddy Wilford because of course. He said of Susie that she was quote, "A beautiful person inside and out. I am happy to have known her. The absolute audacity of this man."

43:35 But he goes on to say that the hatred and contempt of Susi's family toward him quote, "discraces Susi Larsen's name. If that makes them feel better about themselves, well, I hope that eases their pain. These people are praying to God that I be hurt and degraded. You people are not godly." No one's buying your shit. Yeah, I mean, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle, that really got me hot when I read that I was just like, you're saving any kind of face here.

44:16 No, no. Even if that was a thousand percent, if you were innocent and that was a thousand percent the truth, you still look like the asshole. Another first of all, how fucking dare you? And second of all, none of what they've said to you publicly is even a fraction of what I'm sure they feel. Well, just be honest, they're certainly not alone in that. We're on board. The details of Susi's murder left many horrified and disgusted. Susi's fiance Keith spoke as well, stating she had been the love of his life.

45:00 "That life was snuffed out by that man sitting there," he said, refusing to acknowledge her killer by name. It seems like only a few months ago that I stood along a rushing river and gave Susie a ring. I'll cherish that moment as the happiest moment in my life. Billy filed multiple appeals following his conviction and sentencing, which of course is not in common, but really fucking annoying. But in 2015, he was actually successful. The Oregon Court of Appeals agreed that he should be granted a new trial based on inadequate assistance of counsel.

45:45 Here we go, Dan. Yeah. And honestly, I hate it, but they're not wrong. By the time his trial had gotten underway, Billy had a different attorney representing him, then the one representing him on the day he provided the damning recorded statement to authorities. That was October 23rd, and it is single-handedly what turned Wilford against him. He was aware that he had been promised immunity by the DA. When he said in the statements provided that date should have been used against him in prosecution, the statement Wilford made in the case that incriminated Billy was only provided once he'd heard the recording of Billy's own statement.

46:39 The former then led to Billy's arrest. It's fruit from a poison tree. Yeah, I was just going to say, "Further the poison is true." That's why you have to be so meticulous and careful about your evidence gathering and interviews and all of it. Yeah. One mistake, one misstep, it can take everything down. Yeah. His attorney had the opportunity to read through the immunity agreement as well as his transcribed official statement. He argued in court that not only should Wilford statements not be used in court, but neither should any of the derivative evidence that came from them.

47:28 The judge granted this motion, but Billy's attorney never raised the issue with Wilford statements at trial. So he brought it up, but then it was like he just forgot. Whoops. Yep. He would later state that he thought the statements made by Wilford were not covered by the immunity agreement, which kind of makes sense because whatever Wilford says is separate from whatever your claim is saying. Like in that respect, maybe I could see it, but sir, sir, you are a lawyer.

48:09 It was weird, since he filed a motion to suppress them, and that was actually granted, but you know, makes it seem like his legal representation was possibly either day drinking through the trial or just extremely ineffectual, either way, not exactly ideal. Could be both. Two things can be true. I'm not proud about it. Yeah. Well, there were some people that were mad about it. Wilford's court of appeals pointed out that at the pre-trial hearing his attorney did raise the issue, but they could not understand why he didn't continue doing so at trial, just kind of when it counts.

48:53 For a point. Yep. The prosecution's case dating back to 1996 was based on the statements and really not a whole lot else because we also didn't have super advanced forensic DNA testing. Not great. They had the blood found in his apartment that they linked to Susie, but back then it was only a blood type match. So not exactly a slam dunk. In January of 2023, his second trial got underway. According to the new trial, Susi's sister Mindy said, "It just feels wrong.

49:34 You want a fair trial for everybody involved, but a fair trial is having the jury hear all the evidence. And this time around, it's not the case. We know too much, and the frustration is tough." She spoke about the difficulty of testifying in her sister's case, again, stating that she found it particularly challenging to be able to provide what felt like complete answers in some cases due to some of the prior evidence no longer being allowed. Yeah. That's understandable. Really tricky because this is just a person who's, you know, ostensibly a witness, you know, they're testifying, but they're not directly involved, obviously, in the crime itself.

50:27 And they're not very well acquainted with legal system. That's, it's a lot to ask. I just, I can't even fathom the frustration that she must have felt. She's been vocal about her sister's case since she was taken from their family nearly three decades ago. On Tuesday, February 7, 2023, at age 60, Billy Oatney Jr. was convicted of murder in the first degree for the 1996 sexual assault and murder of Susi Larsen for the second time.

51:11 The jury was permitted to hear about his previous violent history, including his prior conviction for attempted murder. That took place in Japan when he was a service member. They found that he had not been deterred from violent acts previously, noting the short time between his release and Susi's death. Additionally, just days after murdering Susi, Billy had been stalking a exotic dancer. And told friends he wanted to make her his love slave.

51:53 "Yuck." Yeah. So clearly he didn't see any need to stop his criminal and violent behavior against women. Ultimately, the jury felt there was no possibility of rehabilitation for Billy. "I agree." Yeah. Finally, making the right choice. Taking this into account following his second conviction, the judge sentenced him to life without the possibility of wrong. And all I have to say is, "Syanara Sakha."

52:33 You had me worried with this whole new trial thing. I didn't know which way this was going to go. It wasn't looking good. It's a wild case. Anytime that they are granted an appeal at that point and so many years later, like that too, it definitely just makes you a little bit nervous. But I think that unfortunately, even if they, fortunately or unfortunately, just depending on which side you're on, after that much time has passed, a lot of times the technology and the different resources that we have available to nail your super creeper-ass, they're that much better.

53:20 So it's unfortunate for Billy, I suppose. But do you even care about that? Yeah, but I mean for the family to have to go through all of that again, regardless of the outcome. That was those tough. Yeah, and seeing the interviews that her sister did with a number of local news channels and things, I can really tell the toll that that took on her personally. I believe at this point both of their parents have passed. So I do think that's another layer of difficulty because that puts a lot of the weight on her shoulders to really see this through.

54:13 Another super creepy detail about this case, the apartments where she was killed, they're untiegored, have driven by them. Probably a ton of times, I know of them. As soon as I heard the name of the complex, it's called, I believe, "brighten apartments." I was like, "You've got to be kidding me." These are, I know, it's just all of these places that, you know, in Champoeg Park, God, why you got a ruined old, like, come on.

54:58 You are choosing cases in your neck of the woods. I know, I know. It's true, it's true. It's kind of like, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to drink another glass of wine and then I'm surprised that I'm drunk." How did this happen? Who let this happen? Who is in charge here? [Cassie in deep voice] I'm Chris the husband. Okay. So tarot. Tarot. So I did read this episode. You did. Yes. So I'm excited to see what Chris did with it.

55:41 He was like, "You're so right. You did pick my unique nightmare fuel." Did he cry? You guys didn't cry. He didn't cry. You can't marry him. I know. I'm stopping the wedding. If someone says, "Who objects?" I'm going to be like, "I object." I would never. No. Okay. Well, I'm excited to listen, but Chris didn't want to do tarot. He was like, "That's too witchy for me." Well, honestly, I think he's a little bit freaked out by the readings that he's seen me go to like close family members and friends and maybe some of the readings I've given to him himself.

56:26 Is she the witchy bitch? I'm a witchy bitch. It says so on the wine glass. Like it's hard to read with like the lights and everything, but I didn't think about that. Witchy bitch. Witchy bitch. I didn't think about that. Witchy bitch. Witchy bitch. I didn't think about that. Witchy bitch. Witchy bitch. I didn't think about that. Witchy bitch. It's fine. Yeah, I think it's important to know that we are very open right now. We have waited until we were two glasses of wine in to go ahead and do the tarot.

57:06 So like we're very, we're very open spiritually. Spiritual way. Okay. I feel like I'm like kind of, you probably can't really tell. I'm about a thirdish of the way into the deck. Does that feel okay? Oh, okay. Oh, interesting. Two of cups. The imagery I feel like kind of works in the traditional deck. I have something to say. What? This is basically like the lover's card number two. Kind of. On this card, when we were doing, like we were about to do your proposal thing for your wedding, we pulled the two cups and I was like, shit, don't give her any idea.

57:54 Oh my gosh. And you thought I was going to pick up on something and I was like, boom, boom, boom, boom. I was like, oh my, you'll get better. You're in here. You're in here. And you want to hear that. Go back a year or two. A yearish? You're not. When did you happen? Okay, well, this is kind of freaky because it made sense then. It makes sense now. Two of cups are keywords are partnership, harmony, creative exchange and cooperation. In many decks, the two of cups shows a man and woman holding chalices as if toasting each other or like literally standing in front of an altar.

58:39 Yeah. The card represents joining forces with someone either romantically or in a creative spiritual endeavor. Now this works twofold, I think, when it comes to this case. Okay. So I think this applies to romantic partners in this case and I think it also works in like a, you know, criminal partnership in this case. Yeah. You share a common dream, interest or passion and can work together to bring it into being or maybe you literally already work together at Mattel. Yeah. Oh.

59:20 I know. I know. I know. It's kind of heartbreaking. It really is. Mutual respect and equality exist between you. The upright two indicates a period of harmony when things go smoothly between you and another person. Did I, because like I've read this a while ago, did they have this at first? Like, did they have this like harmony? Well, okay. So the thing that's important to remember about this case is that Sissy was not murdered by her partner.

1:00:00 This is an outside, it's a third party. So her relationship, I mean, it couldn't have been happier in terms of her romantic partnership. She was supposed to get married like two weeks after her disappearance. And you may recall that she was actually laid to rest on what would have been her wedding day. Yeah. I remember that part. Yeah. I think of this as the honeymoon car. Oh my god. Stop.

1:00:40 I know. I know. Oh god. It makes sense. But it's, yeah. Oh, she's getting more. No, we're fine. No, we're fine. When you have high hopes and experience a time of accord optimism, inspiration and good wealth in a reading about money, the upright to suggest a financial partnership or merging your resources with someone else's for a mutual gain. It can also mean financial support comes from a partner or a backer. If the reading is about your job, this car describes a partnership that benefits both people.

1:01:25 You inspire one another and enjoy working together, literally working together. Yeah. It can also represent cooperation and creative collaboration in your workplace. Wow. I mean, that's crazy. I mean, the fact that that is so spot on is just, yeah, if in a reading about love, the two upright symbolizes a happy relationship that's developing smoothly. You understand each other's needs and bring out the best in one another. This card shows harmony, balance, and mutual respect between two parties.

1:02:09 Wow. Well, that just makes me sad because like this is all of the things like it was going to be a shut of then and yeah. And then it didn't be his. And then it was a stupid shit. Interesting. Okay. I just, I had to see. I just, I just needed to know it's the Queen of Swords and Reverse. Oh. Okay. Queen of Swords. Keywords are intelligence, independence, authority, objectivity, and communication. The Queen of Swords is the female counterpart of the king, except she represents the creative side of the mental process, the novelist rather than the accountant.

1:03:00 It seems she was a graphic designer, so that feels, yeah. In some decks, she sits on the throne, wearing a crown and a luxurious, wearing a crown and a luxurious robe holding a sword. The Aquarian Tarot pictures her crown, but sands throne, wielding her sword as a woman warrior, sort of a Joan of Arc or a theme of figure. Oh. In a reading, she may represent an actual person, in which case, she's usually a mature woman known for her intelligence, independence, and inner strength.

1:03:44 When the Queen appears reversed, you may feel trapped, limited, unable to speak your own truth. She could indicate disappointments at work or home, broken promises, hopes that didn't manifest. Didn't the other one say like it was all about like the hope or something? You may feel you haven't been given a chance to show yourself or you've been handed a puny piece of the pie. Perhaps you can't move beyond a loss or your emotions are interfering with your judgment.

1:04:28 In a reading about money, this card can mean you let your emotions rather than your intellect guide a financial matter. It may also suggest you've gotten bad advice or not investigated a situation adequately and consequently incurred losses. Oh, holy shit. This Queen warns, read the fine print. The reversed Queen may represent the glass ceiling women still face. In a reading about love, this card suggests bitterness caused by disappointments or losses.

1:05:11 As a result, you may swear off relationships and isolate yourself. Sometimes the Queen reversed shows an overly critical nature, inflexibility, or coolness toward a partner. I mean, it's that first one. I was like by no fault of either of their own. Did he ever like read Mary after? I'm trying to remember from the source material because I think outside of speaking at the original sentencing, I don't think that there have been any particular updates that I have seen about her fiancee.

1:06:02 I think probably a lot of that has to do with the only way to move on in that situation for him might have been that after he's sentenced and he's sent to prison, I have to separate myself from this. For sure, because I feel like there would be something about this is someone that you thought you were going to spend the rest of your life with. They were so young.

1:06:44 He still had so much life ahead of him and he really did have to... He would have to try in some respect to compartmentalize this in order to be able to go on to have a life, whereas someone in her family who has their partner and they have the support of their family long term, I think you're just approaching those things so differently. You have to grieve that in a different way and let go of that person in a different way.

1:07:31 It's so hard. I can't imagine. I've had so many horrific flashes of just intrusive thoughts or horrific daydreams about something happening. I don't know how anyone moves on, but for this particular situation, the fact that you are just weeks away from your wedding, I couldn't wrap my head around it.

1:08:13 I really didn't want to throw up. Yeah. My mouth is good and watery. Yeah. Well, those cards worked. I mean, wow. I don't know that I've had a reading that has felt so like that just resonated in a way that I'm really glad I pulled that second one. Yeah. I knew you were going to, was that weird? Kind of, because I didn't know until I did it. I knew as soon as you pulled. I knew as soon as you pulled this other one, like I knew it would work, but like I knew that you were going to have to pull a different one. Yeah. Just based off of what it was, I was like, this is too like feel good. I know this is like what, obviously I'm altered.

1:08:56 This is like the vibe we were going for, like the couples and the, yeah. All the things that should have been, but you know what's weird about this is I just realized that pulling a second card in this moment, like I wouldn't have, I never planned to pull another card. I always plan on it being one card and I'm, if anything, I'm resistant to pulling additional cards, but it makes sense because I mean, this is a situation where he had two trials. Right. Two of cops, two trials and two cards. Two people on the altar. We have the 11, 11. Yeah.

1:09:37 Oh, God. Should we just like talk about this beautiful candle or a book? Yeah, Chris and I talked about it a little bit. Yeah. Well, we can talk about it. Oh, I was like, did you just like show the butts or what we didn't know show the butt. Should we show the butts? Show the butts. We need a little pick me up, I think after this. God, fuck me up. That was, um, I guess the joke saw me because I was like, oh my gosh, I figured out, I figured out what's going to really like set everybody off right before the wedding. And I was like, I guess I forgot, I'm everybody. Let me just fuck myself off of my way.

1:10:17 Yeah. Well, yeah, naturally because I'm like obviously deeply sticking the head and a little bit of a massacres, but what are you going to do? You know? Cry on camera. No, you've got it. It's great for your makeup and I'm not at all sniffly. You don't sound at all measly. It's fun. Well, I'm glad I don't have to sit here for this whole episode and I just got to read it and skimp as need be. And then you got like the fun part, the tarot. Yeah, I got the fun part. I mean, sometimes you just need a good cry.

1:11:00 Well, I'm going to go cry off camera. She's not. We might go get a snack though. I'm okay with that. That would probably rejuvenate us. I might cry eating snacks because they'd be so good. They're so good. They're so good. All right. Have a great day. Have a great day. Have a great day. Have a great day. We'll see you next Wednesday or whenever. Oh, I didn't know that you guys are still saying that. Whoops. I said, waiting. You said, waiting, that you said Monday. I didn't know it was like you next Wednesday.

1:11:41 Just thought Joe Connuss, because none of us are getting married ever again. No, no, no. I will never do this again. I'm surprised my hair is not fully now. I'm glad that it's not. Yeah. She's not gone. What? What's to do this? All right. I'm like, who should start? Because when I say hi, I'm going to be saying hi, Chris. And when you say hi, it'll be obvious that you're not Cassie. I will do my best to sound like her. Hello. Hello. Hello. (pnwhauntsandhomicides.com)