BONUS: #youvebeenrused W/ Robert Kerbeck

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So you know we do a tarot reading for every episode of the podcast.

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Oh my god, this is already the best podcast ever. I get a tarot card reading included.

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Yes, wow.

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Yes.

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Okay, I'm-

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We do charge $39.99 per reading.

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It's a steal.

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It's a steal.

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[Music]

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Hi Cassie.

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Well, hey there, Caitlyn.

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Hi creepy people.

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Hi!

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We never get an answer.

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Yeah, they never respond.

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I actually did think you were talking to me and so I almost did respond.

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Yes.

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So I-

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There is a creepy person here?

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I guess I am the creepy person.

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Isn't it always fun to be the creepy person in the room?

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Yeah, every once in a while.

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You know, it's kind of cool, you know?

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Yeah.

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He says, oh boy, I don't know if I'd known you were going to introduce me that way.

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Not sure I would have signed on the dotted line for this.

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Well, let's introduce him to all of the other creepy people.

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We have on our show today, whenever you're listening, whatever day that happens to be,

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Robert and I'm hoping I'm not going to- I don't know why, but I look at the last name

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and I feel like, you've listened to the book.

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I know.

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It makes no sense.

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I'm not saying it makes any sense.

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Kerbek.

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Robert Kerbek.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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My friends just call me creepy.

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So, you know.

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Perfect.

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You'll fit right in around here.

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I was just going to say.

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So, we're super excited to talk to you about Roo's.

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I think I told you before we get started.

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I'm on my second listen through on the book and audible.

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So, we reached out to you a while back because I connected with you on pod match.

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We're doing this wild thing where we're being very transparent about it.

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It feels a little bit like when online dating first came around.

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And you always had to have a cover story.

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Nobody wanted to say that they met on an online dating website or app.

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It does sound like dating pod match.

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Yeah.

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Okay, Cassie.

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I'm going to grab a beverage here and did you want to-

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Yeah, after you're done opening your can of soda.

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Only soda?

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That's it.

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I mean-

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Oh, no, we're double fisting.

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I've got a- this is a lacroise sparkling water and then we've got the tumblers with the wine.

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Oh, thank goodness.

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I mean, that was the whole excitement of the pod match match.

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I said, you know, any people that are drinking on air,

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sign me up for that program.

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Right.

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It's always going to be fun.

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Exactly.

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But here's the thing though, is I feel like for us and we first started doing this.

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We were initially releasing video, but it was a little nerve-wracking.

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Because you're kind of speaking into the void and we are not used to

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receiving critical reviews.

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Something that you might be a little bit more in duck-duck at this point.

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You're very familiar.

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Yes, yes.

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As an actor and as a writer, I've received many critical reviews.

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Sons of bitches.

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Ah, exactly, exactly.

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Okay.

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Well, I won't give you a critical review of the book.

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That's not my style.

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So-

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But so Caitlyn kind of does this thing where she's kind of my momager.

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And she's just like sets up all these interviews and things and she's like,

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read this book, do this, do this.

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I'm like, okay.

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Yes, I will.

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So I jumped into your book and I had no idea what it was about.

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I don't even know if I read the entire title.

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So I'm sitting there listening to this book and I thought it was a fiction.

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I was like, wait a minute.

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Like, this sounds really real.

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So I had to go back and I was like, oh, okay.

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Not a fiction.

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Yeah, that's right.

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That's right.

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It's it's, I've written a true book about line.

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Because obviously, you know, obviously you know, now I'm writing a book about my career as a corporate

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spy, which is not someone you meet every day.

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And-

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This is the first.

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Yeah.

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And so, the book, everything in the book, all the spying, all the shenanigans, it's all true.

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That's crazy.

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So you rused me in the beginning.

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That's right.

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Hashtag, you've been rused

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you've been rused

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Oh, I like that.

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Yeah, we're going to use that.

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Yeah, go have it.

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Have at it.

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I'm getting a tarot card reading.

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You guys should get some hashtags.

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Perfect.

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There you go.

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See, I knew we were going to really have a good time here today.

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I think it's really funny because throughout the book,

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there were so many different things where I was like, God damn it.

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This is just so relatable.

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And my dad actually works in a car dealership, has for years.

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Not the owner of a car dealership, but I thought there were so many funny parallels to

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you know, different situations and conversations that I've had with my dad over the year.

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So I just thought like it's such a funny little detail from your background that I was like,

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oh man, I just know that I'm going to really identify with him.

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Oh, that's so funny.

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What did your dad do with the dealership?

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So he's done quite a few things over the years actually.

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He's been in sales.

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He's been in finance.

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I think he's in finance right now.

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Okay, and what's from what kind of cars?

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What is the what is the product line?

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Gosh, right now.

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I mean, that's the other thing that you never you kind of bounce around.

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Unless your family owns a dealership, right?

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Right, right.

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Yeah, which you know, my family, as you guys know, the Kerbeck family,

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you know, started selling cars.

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Basically the second cars were invented in America.

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And even today, my cousins are still some of the biggest car dealers in America.

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And you know, so if you're looking for a deal on a Lamborghini, tell them I sent you.

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Perfect.

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Well, there you go.

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Yeah, he's not working at a Lamborghini dealership as far as I know.

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I want to say Ford Mercury Lincoln.

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There you go.

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That could be wrong.

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That was where I worked.

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That was the dealership I worked.

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That was Lincoln Mercury, you know, as a young guy.

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When I graduated college.

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And you know, I went to work there.

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And you know, I was selling cars and it was funny because the kind of the trickery of sales,

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I mean, look, all sales is convincing people to buy something.

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Usually, obviously, for more than what you paid for.

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That's the whole point of sales because that's how you make money.

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But it just kind of didn't feel right to me, you know, trying to get people to buy a car for as

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much money as possible.

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You know, because the more money I made, the more profit there was for the dealership,

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the more my commission was, which of course is common in most sales.

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And so it just didn't feel right to me and I kind of wanted to be an actor.

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And you know, I moved to New York to try acting.

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And of course, actors need survival jobs.

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And who stumbles into a career as a corporate spy, which is, of course, what I did, which ended up,

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obviously, being far more ethically challenged, let's say, than cars.

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Ironic, definitely.

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Yes, quite ironic.

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I know.

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My father did not find it so funny when I said to him, I'm leaving the dealership because,

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yeah, I don't really like the sales thing, tricking people.

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And then later he found out I was a corporate spy and he was like, oh my god.

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You know, he was none too pleased.

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He could have done so great at the dealership.

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Oh, I know.

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And now my hometown is Philadelphia.

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And so if I had stayed, the Quebec name is extremely well known in Philadelphia.

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Like Philadelphia Magazine did an article a couple years back of the 30 famous Philadelphia families

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and our family, the Quebec family was one of the 30 families, which blew me.

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And by the way, that's not me.

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I'm the black sheep of the family.

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So clearly they were not writing it about me.

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But but if I had stayed, that level of celebrity literally when I go back and periodically,

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I go back.

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And if I go to a restaurant and they say, you know, what's your name?

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And I say, Kerbeck and they go, Kerbeck, are you one of the curbs?

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Yeah.

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You know, my gosh.

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So I and now of course, my again, you guys aren't big sports fans.

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I don't think but the Philadelphia Eagles played Amaro in the NFC championship game.

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And so if I were back selling cars, I'd have free, well, maybe not free tickets to the Eagles,

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but I would have I would have seasoned tickets to the Eagles and I'd be at that game.

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So oh well, you win some you lose some.

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Oh, I'm stuck in Malibu, California.

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It's not too bad.

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Oh darn.

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Yeah, it could be worse.

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I know.

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I know.

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Yeah, you know, a lot of it's certainly good.

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A lot of people are probably right now going, man, I feel bad for this guy, you know,

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poor guy, corporate spy living in Malibu, California.

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Poor little black sheep.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Oh my goodness.

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Yeah, it does seem like it worked out other than, you know, the season tickets.

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What are you going to do?

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What are you going to do?

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You cannot have it all.

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Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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You know, what's funny to me is listening to the book and, you know, thinking about things from a

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perspective of really most of my adult career, something like LinkedIn has always been

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in existence.

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But thinking back to, and you referenced it multiple times in your book as well, but, you know,

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the archetype of sort of that wolf wolf wall street, and you think to what a crazy,

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competitive greed is good era that you became a corporate spy.

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And how valuable that information was.

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And I'm like, how did this never occur to me?

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I feel like that was something that I was a little bit surprised that it didn't actually get

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featured as kind of this little side trail in more of the movies that are kind of in that vein.

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Yeah.

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I think that's exactly right.

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You know, and when I, you know, first kind of circled back to writing, I was in English major

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in college, and then many, many years went by, and I was acting, and spying, and getting, you know,

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almost in trouble, and, you know, and then having a midlife crisis, and then almost encircled back to

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writing after many, many years.

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And when I started writing, I started going to a couple of writing conferences, because I said,

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look, you know, I need to figure out how to write.

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I know I have a great story, because how many people are a corporate spy?

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I know there's a story to be told, but I had to figure out how to tell it.

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So I go to these writing conferences, and I was reading early excerpts from reviews,

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and people were freaking out about it, because they said the exact same thing you just said,

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which was, oh my god, you know, I know the Russians fly on the Chinese and the Chinese

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fly on us, but I had no idea major corporations are spending so much money hiring spies

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to spy on each other, you know.

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And that was like a light bulb moment for me.

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I went, wow, you know, people were just, I mean, people were going bonkers about it.

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And I knew it was cool, but I didn't know it was that cool.

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And then I realized, wow, there's really a story here that not only can I write, but that I could

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actually, you know, sell.

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Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, there is something about it, the fact that it's your lived experience,

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that makes it seem like, oh, I mean, you know, I know it's cool, but like you say, like I didn't,

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oh, it was that cool. So I thought that was really interesting.

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I was really curious, because I know that you talk about a number of different types of information

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that you would be asked to collect. And it's a different era. So to me, I'm thinking, oh, wait a

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second, this is like a landline that people are picking up, right? Which first of all, what's a landline?

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But I did, I did, you know, I mean, even today you can get people to pick up their cell phone,

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believe it or not. And I have tricks to get people to pick up their cell phone. And then when people

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pick up their cell phone, you use call spoofing to have your phone number appear as a number that

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they recognize or a number they sort of recognize. And then using those things, now I'm, you know,

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now theoretically I'm getting people to tell me whatever it is I want to know via the cell phone,

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which, you know, we did because obviously cell phones have been around for a while. So it wasn't just,

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it wasn't just landline, but definitely landline is where, where are my spine careers started.

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Yeah, I thought it was so interesting too. And it sounds like it was sort of something that you

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guys were very aware of. And it probably just makes sense based on the era, but having worked for

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a number of doctors and after hours, a doctor doesn't answer their own calls. And in that industry to

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hear that all you had to do was call after hours and you might get this actual person on the line,

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this is somebody who's very high up at, you know, bare stirs or, I mean, that kind of is mind blowing.

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Right. Yeah, no, I mean, and again, I think a lot of these things we learned by accident because,

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you know, we were, you know, actors that needed a survival job. You know, we were getting,

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believe it or not, it sounds crazy. Eight dollars an hour to be corporate spies, which is hilarious.

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Hellarius, since we were putting ourselves in jeopardy, legal jeopardy. Yeah. And of course,

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that's where we started. And obviously you guys have read the books. You know, eventually I was

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making millions of dollars a year doing this, but we started. It was just eight dollars an hour.

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And so we were learning these things because, you know, we needed this job, you know, nowadays,

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with COVID, so many people, you know, remote work became just so prevalent. But back in the day,

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you know, we're talking early 90s now, back in the day, you know, you couldn't work from home.

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There were no jobs from home. And so as an actor, you know, to be able to have a job, you could do from

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home and do for two or three hours, then go to an audition, then come back and work another two or

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three hours and then go to another audition. You know, it was just a miracle. And so we needed the job.

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And we were desperate not to lose the job. And so we were working very hard to come up with

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the ploys and reasons why executives and assistants and receptionists that are educated people that

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are trained not to give out corporate secrets. We had to find and come up with, and we literally

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invented all of these ploys, you know, in the book, you know, there's the compliance.

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Some of them are so good. They're really, they're so clever.

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Yeah. Well, and you know, one of them we stumbled into was that what we learned is, is assistance.

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And I'm talking about Wall Street now, but I think this is true in most industries. You know,

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assistants generally have a pretty defined schedule for, you know, lack of a better thing.

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Nine to five, right? And so what we learned is when you called it five,

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thirty, the executive that you could never get through to now is picking up the phone. And

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better yet, if you called it seven, thirty, the executive is picking up the phone. And now they're

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exhausted after a long day. And now you get the executive on the phone. And you tell them,

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you're another executive in some different office, you know, maybe you're calling from the

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office in Frankfurt, Germany. Now we put on an accent. This is Gail Hot calling from the

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office in Frankfurt, Germany. He has a European union regulators here. And he has an emergency.

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And if he needs some help from the states. And the executive's like, oh my gosh. Oh my god.

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I'm giving you the info. Absolutely. Of course you are. You know, it's like, and that was the thing

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about this job was that the crazy our ploys were. The, you know, the most ludicrous story.

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In a strange way, it became more believable. Like who's, who's calling you pretending to have

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a German accent, pretending to be in your firm's office in Germany, telling you they need this

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information, which you kind of can't figure out why they would really need it in Germany.

293
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But it's the guy in Germany on the phone. Like nobody's making this up. I guess it's real. Okay,

294
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here you go. Yeah. Well, and I thought it was so interesting to hear kind of

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from a psychological perspective. And how many times you reflected, you know, people might pause

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or they might sort of question and maybe, you know, provide very minimal. I would argue pushback.

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But once they give you one piece of information, it's like your foot's in the door. And that just

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kind of blows you away. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing that I think blew me away the most and still does

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is that so you know, you'd get that one piece of information. And of course, we would always start

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with the softball question. Like a question we knew the answer to, a question we did not need this

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information. We already knew the information. But we were establishing this precedent of I ask

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you question, you answer it. And once they did it once, why would they do it twice? Why wouldn't

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they do it three times? But what shocked me the most was that once we did get our foot in the door,

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people would not only tell us anything and everything that they they knew. But once they

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told us every single thing they knew and theoretically I didn't need them anymore. They'd give it to

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me all their information. They'd say, Hey, is there anything else you need? And then you go, well,

307
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just wild. Well, you know what? As a matter of fact, I'd like to know this and they go, well,

308
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that's my not my department. I don't know that. That's not my area. That's not even my division.

309
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But you know what? I know so and so over there. You don't hold on one second. Let me call over

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there and ask and see if I can get that for you. And so all of a sudden now you would have this person

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who has now become your spy. They're an employee who's now spying for you. And that happened

312
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very frequently. And that was incredible because now that person is calling someone they actually

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do know who's going to go, well, I don't know why you need this, but I know you. I trust you. You

314
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know. And so now you're really able to get some crazy secrets that I might not have been able to get

315
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directly, but now I'm getting them indirectly. And that was really shocking to me.

316
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Wow. Do you think it's because people just like to be helpful? Yes. Yeah, I mean, look, and also,

317
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and also you're trained in a corporate setting to, you know, not rock the boat, not make waves,

318
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be a good teammate, be a team player, right? All of those things, which, which a spy like me is

319
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leveraging to get the intel that I want. And of course, my clients want, and of course, my clients,

320
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you know, again, later in my career, we're paying huge amounts of money for information about

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their biggest rivals. That is just it blows me away to be able to like recruit within their own

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organization. Yeah. And just have, you know, I mean, now you have foot soldiers, essentially. Yeah,

323
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that's right. That's right. And there was one, you know, the woman in the book who I opened with,

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and then I end with her. I mean, she was my spy. And of course, she did not know my, she was my

325
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spy. She believed I was an executive at this firm for 15 years. But it's mind blowing. I know. I know.

326
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Mind blowing. And at one point, the thing that was the most, you know, in some sense, heartbreaking.

327
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But also like, you know, at one point, she says to me, you're my favorite person in the firm.

328
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Oh, I'll think about that. She's never. Not exactly a glowing recommendation for the rest of the firm,

329
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:32,640
right? Yeah. Well, no, yeah, exactly. You know, and exactly. And of course, that was, you know,

330
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one of the things in the book is, you know, here I am doing this, you know, this exercise, which is

331
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certainly not ethical. And of course, is also, you know, potentially illegal. And in the book, you

332
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know, I reckon with the moral issues behind it. And of course, I really felt extremely conflicted.

333
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And of course, in this situation of this woman terrible, because I really liked her too. And,

334
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and it was amazing to me that she could say that to me that I was her favorite person in the firm.

335
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Until, of course, you know, in the book, when I have my midlife crisis and the 2008 crash comes,

336
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and corporate spying stops on a dime because corporations are no longer spending money on spying,

337
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because they're just trying to survive because major companies are going under, you know,

338
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remember General Motors had to be bailed out. Right. You know, Lehman Brothers went under

339
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bare sternum. One of a few. Yeah. Right. Right. And so all the sudden corporations aren't spending

340
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money on spying. I had a mortgage. I had a family. I needed to, you know, get a job. So I had to take

341
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a job in corporate America. And of course, then when I go into corporate America and for the, the,

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the people out there that I hope do buy ruse or listen to it on audible, if you're seeing me do my

343
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corporate spying and you're kind of getting a little bummed out at me, don't worry reader.

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I get my come-upence when I go to work in, when I go to work in corporate America, I become the victim,

345
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I become the doop. I'm the one that is sort of the sucker that believes everything that everyone

346
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is telling me. And here people are stabbing me in the back left and right. And I have no idea

347
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that they're doing it. I know. And you know what? You're going to hate it the whole time too.

348
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I was so, so angry. I'm like, all of these, how dare they? And then

349
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pause to think, well, wait a second. I guess, I guess maybe he did have a little bit of this coming.

350
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Well, I, we like him a lot better. Well, I appreciate the support I do. You know, I mean, I think that's

351
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what I was hoping with ruse. I wrote it during COVID. And obviously that was a terrible time. And so I

352
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wanted to write something that's fun. And, and a little crazy. And obviously quite different.

353
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People say it's a page turner. People say it reads like a, they say it reads like a spy novel,

354
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even though everything in it is true. And that means a lot to me because I wanted to write something

355
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that people could have. They could enjoy and have some laughs. Yeah, definitely. There's a few solid

356
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:13,600
chuckles in there. I think it was earlier this week. I was listening to the story, the part of the

357
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the book where you're specifically talking about, oh, I've got your money. And I'm thinking, wait a

358
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second, he didn't hand this woman his ATM card. Like what? And I'm like, this is an adorable

359
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:34,640
continuation of that joke. I just that piece of it. And I'm like, I'm dancing around it because I'm

360
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like, I don't want to give away too many. All of like the factoids and everything. But I had to

361
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tell you I was like, stop. Like that's just, it's a really cool part of, and seeing how like both

362
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of you guys, your sense of humor and, um, damn it, just so likable. It can't. He's like, stop it.

363
00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:06,720
That's enough, Caitlin. Gosh. But I am really curious because obviously we, you know, we've learned

364
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:13,680
so much about, you know, the premise of rusing, which I mean, it blows my mind. It's just a

365
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mind numbing experience to hear about like all of the details over your time doing that.

366
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Your professional background as an actor, you know, in car sales. You've worn a lot of hats.

367
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And obviously a lot about your family. Is there anything that stands out as far as like a singular

368
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piece of information that was worth like just a shocking amount of money or a particular piece of

369
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information that seemed kind of odd or noteworthy? I feel like there's got to be a nugget of gold in there.

370
00:24:51,760 --> 00:25:00,320
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, one time. So, you know, remember, we're in the pre-linked in ERA. So, um,

371
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and people didn't know who worked at firms, you know, they didn't know what the organizational

372
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structure was. And they certainly, and this is true even today, even with LinkedIn, you don't know

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who the rock stars are. You don't know who the top people are at a firm. You don't know who the top

374
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money makers, the top revenue producers, the top exit, you know, and so, um, so there was, at one point,

375
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there was a team at at Morgan Stanley, a major, you know, investment bank in New York.

376
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And they made Morgan Stanley a billion dollars in, I think it was 2006. And it was eight person

377
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team, tiny team, making an insane amount of money. And so, we were tasked to find the people on this

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eight person team. Now, you may say to yourself, well, how hard could that be? Well, I can tell you,

379
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it was impossible. A lot of times, these firms would not even list their best executives in the

380
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corporate directory. Apple legendary Apple CEO Steve Jobs would not list his designers in the

381
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Apple directory for that very same reason. Imagine if you could poach one of the early designers

382
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of the iPad, you know, back in the day and get that guy, or, you know, man or woman, come to your team

383
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and bring not not only maybe one or two other people on the team, but the secrets of what they were

384
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,680
working on, you know. No kidding. Yeah, it's like stealing a printing press. That's right. You know,

385
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,680
prints money. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so we, you know, or I identified the eight members of

386
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this team and then my client stole two of those people. Now, you say, okay, well, how much was that

387
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worth? Well, some portion of a billion dollars. Wow. Well. Yeah. So, so the information, you know,

388
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I mean, look, we see it, you know, and again, I forgive me. I go back to sports, but we see it in sports.

389
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Like if you signed the star quarter back away from one team, Tom Brady was on the New England Patriots.

390
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He was winning Super Bowls. Right. He leaves the New England Patriots. Now they are not winning Super Bowls.

391
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Now they're not in the playoffs. And then the team he goes to, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, they win

392
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the Super Bowl, right? And it's the same thing in corporate America. If you can identify who the best

393
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players are and then you can steal them from your rival, you not only dent, you know, and sometimes

394
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severely damage your rival, but now your firm benefits immensely. And, you know, again, if you're

395
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:40,560
listeners out there, corporate America is just as competitive as sports. It is just as competitive.

396
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People want to win at all costs. Executives are paid based on their company stock price,

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based on their revenue. They get bonus checks. So it is super cutthroat. And so these corporations,

398
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they know their rivals are hiring spies. So they're going to hire spies. And so there's this whole

399
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spy versus spy thing that's constantly going on. It's pretty wild. You think that if both of them are

400
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hiring spies, they kind of would know what to look for and maybe like train their assistance and stuff

401
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:20,320
to not get roost, right? I mean, they tried. They tried and not to get wild as part. Yeah, they don't

402
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,840
try hard enough. Not not hard enough. I mean, look, when you think about today, you know, the big issue

403
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is cybercrime, right? And ransomware attacks. And so corporations spend so much money protecting their

404
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technology, their firewall, their encryption, their server, their network. And they spend a

405
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minuscule fraction of that money and time educating and training their employees. And that is a huge

406
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problem because the weakest link in cybersecurity is always the human being. Absolutely. Yeah, my brother

407
00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:03,920
works in IT for a healthcare organization. So I get to hear about a lot of those examples of

408
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like what it looks like a weak link in that system. And those are not low stakes. No, no, no, no, no,

409
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:17,200
no, no, no, no, no, yeah, no, and I actually had a healthcare company reach out to me.

410
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They were victims of a ransomware attack. And I won't go into the whole story, but they could not

411
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book an appointment. They could not help a patient deal with the patient. Do anything for 10 days.

412
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Now this was a healthcare provider. They had six locations. They couldn't all six shut down. Now think

413
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about not only the economic damage, but the reputational damage, right? Absolutely. And it all started

414
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from a junior person being roosed. Somebody call, you know, because a lot of times these ransomware

415
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:01,360
firms, what they do is it's not just one person. It's usually small teams of people. And it's a

416
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little bit like mission possible, which each team member has a skill. So there's the social engineer

417
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,640
who's going in and is finding out how the system is set up, finding out what the weak links might be,

418
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then they're feeding that information to the hacker. Because, you know, no matter how good the hacker

419
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is, they've got to understand some stuff to, you know, and so now the hacker gets all of this

420
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information that makes the hacking super, or if not super easy, much easier, easier. And then there's

421
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,760
another person on the team who's the financial instruments expert because they've got to figure out how

422
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do we get this ransom and not get caught getting it? How do we make it untraceable? You know, so they're

423
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like these little teams, these mission impossible teams. So, you know, they're difficult to go up against.

424
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And if you're not training your people about that exact scenario, you know, you're really, you're

425
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,920
really, you know, you're really playing with fire because you're going to get burned. And when you

426
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,880
get burned, it's, it can be catastrophic for, especially for a small or midsize company.

427
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:06,720
No doubt. Well, and in a healthcare setting, you just hope, my God, I hope it's not like,

428
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:14,640
while I'm on the operating table. On the ecology clinic. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well,

429
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:20,720
in that actually, you know, thinking about it in that manner where it's sort of a team that's

430
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:27,920
working together that way, that sort of makes it even scarier. Yeah. Yeah. See, you know, here we are on

431
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:33,280
this, you know, I'm so glad you guys had me on because this is an atypical maybe what you would think

432
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:40,000
of as a crime story or, you know, homicides, you would think of homicides, you know. But there is

433
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:47,920
especially now, you know, these stakes have gotten so much higher, right? You know, in my mind, you

434
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,880
know, I don't, I'm not proud of what I did, but you know, we justified it as, as look, we weren't

435
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,280
stealing the credit card numbers of people. Right. We weren't stealing individuals money. You

436
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,840
know, it was like, we're stealing corporate secrets and all the corporations are in on it.

437
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,960
And it's part of the capitalist system. And then I'm not saying it's right, but that's how we

438
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:12,080
rationalized it. But today, right? You know, the stakes are so much higher where people are stealing,

439
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,920
you know, from corporations, the all of our personal information, right? And our social security

440
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:24,160
numbers and our credit card and our data, you know, and all of that stuff. So it really is kind of a

441
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:30,480
darker world now. I don't know that I could write a funny book about ransomware attacks.

442
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:37,280
Yeah. I'm not sure it's out there. It's just, you know, what do you, oh, yeah, it's hard to turn a

443
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:44,560
joke around on that. That's for sure. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I ended up kind of feeling like this feels

444
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:50,720
a little bit like kind of a Robin Hood story. Yeah. You know, yeah. Thank you. That's a nice thing to say.

445
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:56,160
I like that. Yeah. I was just thinking about how we just had our credit card numbers stolen.

446
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:03,920
Oh, no. Even worse, they were debit cards. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is worse. Yeah. Frank

447
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:13,120
Appagnell is the man who wrote Catch Me If You Can. And he was just incredible and he read

448
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,520
ruse, you know, the publisher sent him a copy. And you know, they, the publishers, when they,

449
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,640
they take your book, they send it out to people that have books that are written books similar to yours.

450
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,040
And they ask these people if they will consider reading it. And if they can, we'll consider reading

451
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,720
it. If they read it and they liked it, will they give you a testimonial? What they call a blurb?

452
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:36,400
And, you know, I'm like, okay, send it to Catch Me If You Can guy, but he's not going to respond.

453
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,920
And she or not, he did respond. He said, yeah, I'll read it. And then he read it and he,

454
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,920
and he came back. He's like, I love this book. I'm going to, I want to write a blurb for you,

455
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:50,560
which they put on the cover of the book. And Frank Appagnell talks about your exact situation. He says,

456
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:56,560
that's a reason not to use debit cards is because you use the debit card. You don't have the

457
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:02,480
protection, the way you do with the credit card. So with the credit card, if they get your credit card

458
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:08,480
and they ring it up and they have $72,000 on it, you're not responsible for any of it. But with the debit

459
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,760
card, if they get money out of your account, it's very difficult to get that money back. And so Frank

460
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:20,560
Appagnell, for that reason, he advises people not to have debit cards. Not to use debit cards.

461
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:27,760
Well, and I worked as a teller. And that's advice that even at that low level position within a

462
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:35,040
financial institution, that's something that we would share with people like, yeah, certain purchases,

463
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,400
it's going to be a lot safer to use a credit card. I mean, we got lucky. And thankfully, this

464
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:47,120
wasn't someone that had the physical card and they didn't have the pin. And they were making some

465
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:55,840
very obviously suspicious transactions. And so none of that came out of our end. But yeah, it was one

466
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:03,040
debit card after the other. So I mean, we were really lucky that they were watching it. And certainly

467
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:09,360
happy that they got us all squared away. But you're thinking, man, a week before Christmas. And like,

468
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:18,720
the smallest small business. Oh, no. Well, I'm glad I'm glad it worked out because you would have

469
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:24,720
had to put me on the case to track them down. Exactly. Now we know what to call exactly. Exactly.

470
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:31,440
Yeah. Hey, listen, if Frank Abbick-Nill is going to write you a blurb, I mean, that's pretty

471
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,000
compelling stuff, right? Yeah, it was really beautiful. And then he recommended me to his

472
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:44,240
speaking agency. And I mean, he's just been a real stand-up guy. And you know, I feel like I hear that

473
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:51,360
when people talk about him in interviews and you go, huh. Like, there's so many things that,

474
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:57,760
I guess, not that you expect him to just be this awful guy, but you're like, wow, it really seems

475
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:04,480
like he's gone out of his way to help out a lot of people. And you go, okay, all right, that makes me

476
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:10,160
feel good. And you know, seems like he's kind of got things going on the right track in his life.

477
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:16,960
And oh, yeah, I mean, I think he's worked for the FBI for many years helping them, helping them catch

478
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:22,480
people. You know, they're doing the kind of scams that he was doing before. Just like now, I,

479
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:28,400
you know, go up and speak and talk to corporations. And you know, they don't really listen that much,

480
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:35,680
but I do. I do try to talk to them and say, you, you guys got to train your people. And especially young

481
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:44,480
people entering the market have grown up in an era of digital transparency, where privacy has

482
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:51,280
sort of gone by the wayside. And so, right. And so people, you know, and of course, you know, we live in

483
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:56,320
an era with social media where people post, you know, they post pictures of what they have for

484
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,560
breakfast, they post pictures of, you know, so there's a little bit of the oversharing thing. And of

485
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:08,160
course, in a corporation, you know, those things can get, you know, firms into trouble where a young

486
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:14,240
person who doesn't know better has not been trained. Now, maybe is speaking to someone that they

487
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:19,520
have not properly verified. And now they're, they're giving information up that they shouldn't give.

488
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,480
And I think, you know, corporations, and it's not the, it's not the responsibility of the young

489
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,920
person because they're supposed to be trained. If you're not training people, what's appropriate to

490
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:35,920
share, what's not appropriate to share, how you verify people are, you know, how do you verify

491
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,720
that an email is legitimate of tech? Cause, you know, fishing comes in all, you know, manners, right?

492
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:46,880
It's gotten really very bad too. The frequency and sometimes they're, they're pretty clever.

493
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:53,280
Very clever. There are times where I go, wow, this is really impressive. And I have a little trick

494
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,880
that I use and I encourage people, which is the 30 second rule that when you get the odd text,

495
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:05,040
when you get the odd email or phone call, you, and you, you, you, something's going on in your head.

496
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:12,320
You're like, should I click it? 30 seconds. Right. 30 seconds. They just think about it.

497
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:17,280
Cause once you think about it, and you look at it again, and you reread it again, and you see

498
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:23,200
the syntax isn't right or you check the email and it comes from, you know, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah,

499
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,560
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that has nothing to do with the company that it's, you know,

500
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:33,040
all of a sudden you go, oh, but, but for a moment there, it was, yeah.

501
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:40,320
Yeah, pretty convincing. Oh, wait, this says Uzbekistan.com. Like, what? Yeah.

502
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:49,760
Yeah, that's good advice. The 30 second rule could have saved me some trouble. I probably would receive

503
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:58,720
less spicy text messages on my corporate cell phone if I had done that. My very first day,

504
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:06,800
I got an email from the CEO and he said, I need you to send me your cell phone number because I have

505
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:14,880
an urgent task for you. And I thought, okay, well, it's a CEO, of course you, you know, so my first day,

506
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:21,680
wow, I haven't even met the CEO yet. He's not there in the office. And I thought, okay, this email

507
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:27,120
address, there's really nothing suspicious about it other than the fact that it's not his corporate

508
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:32,320
one. And I thought, well, this could very easily be, you know, his personal one. Of course.

509
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,960
Nothing like that stood out really too much. And I'm like, all they want is my cell phone number.

510
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:43,520
Right. Well, I mean, why would that ever be a problem? Right, Robert?

511
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,520
Right. Come on. Yeah, I think I invented that ploy, by the way.

512
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,160
Sorry. Yeah, thank my bad.

513
00:39:52,160 --> 00:40:00,240
Yeah, I mean, look, again, that's taking advantage of the new person, of the, of the young person,

514
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:06,640
of the junior person. And I did the same thing, which was, you know, we would utilize LinkedIn once

515
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:14,320
it was invented. But even before then, we would really try to target in our initial calls for corporate

516
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,920
information. We would, we would never go in directly where we wanted the information. That was the

517
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,160
last call you would make because if you got shut down, because these people, you know, it happened

518
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,040
that people would go, wait a second. Now, I don't buy this. I'm not giving you any information.

519
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:34,080
I'm reporting you to corporate security. So we would do all of this kind of around the periphery.

520
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:41,680
And we would utilize and take advantage of young people who were not trained to give us

521
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:47,280
information so that we could learn as much as we could so that when we called the real executive or

522
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:53,120
the real assistance of the executive in the area that we wanted the secret, we knew so much about

523
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:58,720
what was going on with the firm. We had done so much homework that, of course, it sounded completely

524
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:06,720
believable that we said, you know, we were off site at the off site, you know, with the ski resort

525
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:12,240
where they were having the off site. Yeah, you know, where all the executives were, you know,

526
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:18,560
oh, well, how could this person know the hotel where all the executives were staying the time and the

527
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:24,560
meetings, which we got from junior people? So then it made a complete sense that they would go,

528
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:30,000
well, well, all the executives are over there and they need this document for the presentation about

529
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,600
our new product or whatever it is, the secret new product. Right. And so again, you were, you were,

530
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,560
you know, that was the same kind of thing that we were doing to get corporate secrets.

531
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:44,960
Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's a good one. Oh, they all need this presentation. So of course, of course,

532
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,680
you don't want them to not get the presentation. No, it goes back to that, you know, you got to be a

533
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:57,360
team player and you got to keep all of the executives happy. Man, I would have been roost so hard. You were.

534
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:05,840
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, I came from a background where, you know, doctors don't take really

535
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:12,240
hardly any calls and, you know, normally they like to keep themselves busy throughout the day,

536
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:19,920
seeing patients. And so I was very used to a gatekeeping role when I worked in a clinic. And so you think,

537
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:27,040
well, I'm not going to be fooled. Right. Yeah. Well, oh boy. Don't take this the wrong way, but you were

538
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:34,960
my ideal target is the person that says, I'm never going to be ruse. No way. All on because as soon as

539
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:41,840
you have that level of confidence, you're setting yourself up for the fall as opposed to going,

540
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:48,800
look, man, I'm going to stay on my toes because on any given day, somebody can slip something by me.

541
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,520
Any, but you know, if I'm not, you know, I got a const and be thinking about it, looking at it, you know,

542
00:42:53,520 --> 00:43:00,160
because sometimes people that had that level of confidence, we were able to utilize that against them.

543
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:06,560
Yes. Yes. It's definitely put me back on my toes. I will say that. Good. Good.

544
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:13,920
At least that one was benign. Yeah. I think you're safe now. Yeah. I'd like to think so.

545
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:23,520
Let's see. Now on my second listening of the book, I really glommed on to again, a term. And I'm

546
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:31,280
hoping that it's going to be one that you remember sort of the origin story of. And so we'll see,

547
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:41,280
did you come up with the term ethical elasticity? Oh, that's a great question. You know, that might have been,

548
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:47,040
I can't remember. You know, so when you have a book, you know, you get an editor and the editor works

549
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:55,200
with you on the book. And I had a couple of great editors. And I mean, I'm sure I had elasticity

550
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,280
in there. And I had ethical thing in there. And I actually think the editor at some point might

551
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,400
have combined those two like one word, one word, one of Benin's the prior sentence in the other word.

552
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,560
And then as he was editing, he was like, cross this, cross this, put this up, you know, all of a sudden,

553
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,360
it was ethical elasticity. So I can't take the credit for that. I think the editor came up with that.

554
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:19,600
That is so interesting. And it is really interesting to me to hear from different authors that we've

555
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:27,040
talked to. What the editing process looks like. And over time, you know, obviously they're taking

556
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:34,000
something that you've created. And I mean, a really intensive process writing a book of course. But

557
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,960
you have all of these fantastic ideas, but they're able to really like, you know, spit shine it

558
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:45,920
for you. Yes. Some of those things. I mean, who won an undertaking though. Yeah. And having a

559
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,960
great editor, I mean, you know, again, for your listeners out there that are maybe contemplating

560
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:56,560
writing a book, writing their memoir, which I highly recommend. You know, self-publishing is viable.

561
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,000
The one thing I would say is if you are going to write a book and if you and you know, you do

562
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:09,600
decide to self-publish it, you know, you got to get that great editor. Not your mom, not your partner,

563
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:16,400
not your brother, not your best friend, a professional editor that is really going to spit shine

564
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,840
it, which is a great term. Because you're going to put that out into the world. And once you put it out

565
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:27,360
there, it's out there, you know, and you want it to be good. You know, you don't want to have,

566
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:37,440
you know, 16 exclamation points on every page. And like I said, that ethical elasticity term that

567
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:43,760
I think was the editor seeing, hey, and of course, you've got the, you know, alliteration there.

568
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:50,560
You know, it's just, you know, and editors are great at that, you know, and my editor, you know, he cut,

569
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:56,160
I forget how many words he cut out of the final version, but close to about 10,000 words.

570
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:02,960
So yeah, so I'm going to say the book was, I think the book is around 90,000 words and as funny as

571
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:10,240
writers, I always talk in terms of words, not pages, because pages, you know, can be adjusted by fonts,

572
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:16,000
you know, the size of the font on the page and, you know, a lot of different things. So I think the book

573
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,680
was close to 100,000 words and he cut, I think, about 8,000,000 words out. So about 10% of the book,

574
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:28,480
which is not uncommon. I think Stephen King, he wrote a great book called On Writing,

575
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,080
which is a book I highly recommend if anybody is out there is thinking about writing it.

576
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,080
We got to read that. Did you read it? I think we had to read it for a class.

577
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,600
Yeah, yeah, it's a great book. Yeah, and it's a pretty easy book to read too, you know.

578
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,720
I mean, I actually think it's his best book, but hey, Stephen, don't get mad at me.

579
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:52,880
But you know what? I'm inclined to agree. Anything else in his wheelhouse is really too scary for her.

580
00:46:52,880 --> 00:47:00,720
Yeah. Yeah. But he did, he wrote a wonderful book about very practical, like literally how to write a

581
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:08,720
book. It's so, and it's short and it's easy to read. And he, I think he talked about writing an extra

582
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:15,680
20% because you can expect 20% of your book to be cut down by your own editor.

583
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:22,160
So in my case, it was 10%, but I can't remember it was 10 or 20%. But you know, the idea that

584
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:27,680
when you turn in your book, you need to be prepared that it's going to cut down some. And so,

585
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:32,320
you know, if you're turning in a book that's 60,000 words, that might be too short.

586
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:39,120
Yeah. You know, if you're looking for an add-a-boy, and like, oh, perfect as is, probably an editor is not

587
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,680
what you're looking for. No, no, that's not going to happen. And it shouldn't happen. It really shouldn't

588
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:49,440
happen. I mean, editors, they can drive you crazy because a lot of times they're so picky.

589
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:54,720
But at the end of the day, it's critical to have a really great editor.

590
00:47:54,720 --> 00:48:02,320
Well, I love that. I love that kind of having that second set of eyes. And I think, you know, most

591
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:08,560
people, even if you're not familiar with, you know, the premise of self-publishing or, you know,

592
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:15,360
with writing a book, you understand that there is an editing process, but seeing how something like

593
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:21,520
that comes out and how they're able to really bring out the absolute best in your creative work,

594
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:28,160
I think that's very cool. Are you working on any other books right now? Are you working?

595
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,520
You have any other literary project? That was my question.

596
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:39,200
Oh, well, that's a great question. Well, I have two literary projects. One is very altruistic,

597
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:48,080
which is I started a literary salon here in Malibu called the Soho House Literary Salon at Soho House

598
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:54,960
Malibu. And the idea that I had was I wanted to, you know, promote other writers. And I have a lot

599
00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:01,040
of friends at a writers. And so the idea is once a month, I pick a book that I really feel passionate

600
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:06,480
about and we have an event, the writer comes and we sit in the front of this beautiful room over

601
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:13,760
looking at the Pacific Ocean and have a couple of cocktails and people come. And we talk about the

602
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:19,920
book and there's a bookseller there so people can buy the book, they get the book signed. And this,

603
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:27,200
you know, and again, I don't know when this will air, but I'm about to do one with ESPN sports media

604
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:34,080
Legend Steven A Smith. And he's, you know, probably the most famous sports announcer in the world right

605
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:39,520
now. And he has a new memoir out called Straight Shooter, which is the story of his life. And I'm going

606
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:45,600
to interview him and talk about his book and his history and whatnot, which is really exciting. So

607
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:51,280
that's very exciting. I mean, Steven, Steven A does not need my help in selling any books, but

608
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:58,000
some of my other authors did. And so I really felt good about helping get the word out about their books.

609
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:05,600
And then I have a new book. This is actually fiction, but it's in the realm of ruse, you know,

610
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:14,400
because ruse is obviously about about cons and scams. This book is about a world renowned antique

611
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:23,680
Islamic carpet expert, who's also a bit of a con man. And it's called sex, rugs, and rock and roll.

612
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:30,560
Love it. We're going to have to read that one. Yeah. So that's great. Yeah. So it's basically about

613
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:38,960
this guy who's made his living identifying rare carpets and tapestries and rugs that are worth

614
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:47,440
believe it or not in some situations, millions of dollars. Yes. And he finds these items in garage sales,

615
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:55,920
at a state sales with people that don't know that they've got a carpet that is 500 years old.

616
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,720
They know what they got. Well, I know it's valuable. I know my great grandfather came over from

617
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:05,600
so and so with it. And it's been in the fall. I know it's probably worth. Well, of course, it's worth

618
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:12,240
some money. It's worth 15,000, 15,000 dollars. Oh my god. And then he sells it for 650,000 dollars.

619
00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:16,960
Oh boy. Yeah. So it's like a dark antique roadshow. Yeah.

620
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:26,080
Dork. I'm going to use that in the in the in the description. Dork antique roadshow. Yeah. So it's

621
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:32,640
good. Oh, yeah. Dark dark and dark. Maybe I don't know. There's something there. You workshop it with

622
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:39,120
the editor. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So anyway, so that book is almost done. And it's funny because

623
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:45,520
it's fiction, but it's very similar in the rules that it's about a con. It's fast moving. It's funny.

624
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:54,720
So I hope people will enjoy it. Oh, that's very exciting. Do you have kind of an anticipated release

625
00:51:54,720 --> 00:52:00,560
timeframe? No, no, not yet. Not yet. No, I mean, books. It's crazy. How long they take the right?

626
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:07,440
Then how long they take to edit. And then even once the book is finished from the time it's finished,

627
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:13,760
the editor has finished the book until the book comes out is at least a year. Oh my goodness.

628
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,600
I know. Yeah, that is a long time. Now self publishing is different. Of course, I'm talking about

629
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:24,880
traditional publishing because the publishing house, you know, they have to, you know, get it set up

630
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:29,200
in all of the marketing thing. And they've sent it around to all the reviewers. And they sent it

631
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:34,320
around to all the newspapers. And they said, you know, and they need a lot of time to do that so that

632
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:40,160
there's, you know, a way to sell a lot of books, you know, self publishing, you know, you could,

633
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,240
you know, you can do it very quickly. And that is one of the advantages of self publishing is you

634
00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:48,960
can get a book out there quickly. Now, it can also be a detriment. If you write your book and you're

635
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,960
like, okay, it's ready to go. And then all of a sudden, because I think that's what happens to

636
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:58,480
a lot of people. They're so excited that they publish it and they skip the lot of steps.

637
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:04,320
To make it as good as it could be, you know. And that makes sense. That makes sense.

638
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:11,200
That's good advice because I think as our show has kind of grown, we've found that we have a lot of

639
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:19,680
other types of creatives that have linked up with our show. Right. Yeah. So good advice. Yeah,

640
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,760
it's right. It's true for anything. Musicians, you know, now you can make an album and record your

641
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,560
own album at home, you know, and then you can put it out on, you know, YouTube or whatever. And that's

642
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:34,480
great. And that's fantastic. But take the time to do the same things that the professionals do. Because

643
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:39,760
you're basically trying to say, I am a professional. You know, hey, check out my album. Hey, check out my

644
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:44,880
book. So, you know, a professional is going to have a producer in the studio that's going,

645
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,440
"Neeh, I don't like this tune. This tune is not good enough." Or, you know, we need to re-record the

646
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:56,640
vocals on this. So, whatever, you know. And so, you know, it's like, you know, I think I encourage people

647
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:03,200
to write their stories, especially in memoir. People have amazing stories. You know, so many times,

648
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:08,560
I teach a writing class in Melbourne. People come in. This woman came in and she had been arrested

649
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,000
69 times. Wow. My goodness.

650
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:18,480
Protesting. So, really, really cool, really cool woman with an amazing story. She'd been arrested 69

651
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,880
times. I'm like, there's your title, you know, 69 arrests or, you know, something like that, you know.

652
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:30,160
And, you know, you can't make up her story because it was true. You know, it was an incredible story.

653
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:35,840
And so, I was encouraging her to write it. But, you know, she had a whole bunch of stuff. And she

654
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:40,240
basically was like, "Okay, can I publish this?" And I'm like, "No, you cannot publish this yet."

655
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,840
You need to hone it down. You need to edit it. You need to find, you need to spit shine it.

656
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:52,160
Which a lot of people don't want to hear. Yeah, I can understand that. You know, you pour a lot of

657
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:59,120
love into it and it feels like you've spent so much time and energy and it's a lot to then feel

658
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:05,040
like there's still more to do. I know. Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know it's true for me too,

659
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:10,080
all the time because you always think it's done and then somebody looks at it and goes, "Oh, wow."

660
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:14,800
You know what? You know, I'll submit it like an essay, you know, like a 10-page essay that I think

661
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:19,840
is ready to be published. You know what? The editor will respond. The first paragraph is unbelievable.

662
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:24,000
You're like, "The first paragraph, it's 12 pages."

663
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:32,240
There you go. First paragraph. And then what I want you to do is instead of going in the direction

664
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:37,520
you went for an 11 and a half pages, I want you to go this other direction. You're like, "Oh, great."

665
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:44,160
But at least they like the first paragraph. Yeah. Awesome.

666
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:51,360
No, I would not advise writing for as a career. I would definitely advise it as an

667
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:58,000
avocation rather than a career that you're expecting to, you know, support yourself because it's not,

668
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:02,640
it's likely not going to happen. And I'm a pretty optimistic person, but it is a very tough

669
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:10,880
business to, you know, to use to support yourself. It definitely seems like it. That's like kind of

670
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:19,120
your lane, though. You like to pick a difficult career. Yeah. I have a buddy who said that to me because,

671
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,920
you know, again, I was an actor and I was a working actor and as you both know, I did, you know,

672
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:30,560
50 major TV shows and my college roommate when I, he came in one of the book releases back east and

673
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:39,120
he said, "Only you would pick something harder than acting to do now." Well kidding. I know. Really.

674
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:49,440
I know. I think I didn't expect it. I figured that the only connection in terms of, you know,

675
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:56,000
the true crime genre would be the rusing. But I have to say, when you got to

676
00:56:56,720 --> 00:57:06,480
shooting the exercise video with OJ, I was just like, "Oh my God. I'm going to be reading this book

677
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:13,840
multiple times, obviously." Oh, you know, that is so funny. I never made that connection. Believe it or not,

678
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:22,080
of I've written a true crime book while also being part of the true crime trial of the century.

679
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:32,240
Yeah. Wow. It's crazy. Yeah. I mean, humble brag, right? Yeah. Well, look, I only played a small part.

680
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:40,880
I was not involved in, you know. Sure. Sure. No, but it's such an interesting part of the story.

681
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:46,480
And I can see where, again, it goes back to, this is your lived experience. And in some ways,

682
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:52,320
you realize that, you know, it's like this very unique thing, but it's like just kind of flies

683
00:57:52,320 --> 00:58:00,400
straight overhead how significant that is and how people are just blown away by, I mean, I'm sorry,

684
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:08,640
you did what? Yeah. Yeah. No, my wife and I were recently, we read an event and we ran into the man

685
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:15,680
that was the district attorney of Los Angeles during the OJ Simpson trial. His name was Gil Garcetti.

686
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:21,920
And his son, Eric was recently the mayor of Los Angeles. And my wife, because, you know, I wasn't

687
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:27,520
going to say anything, but you know, my wife's a booster. And so she's telling Gil Garcetti, who is

688
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:32,160
really lovely, wonderful man. And she was saying, oh, my husband's got a crazy OJ Simpson story.

689
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:38,240
And Gil Garcetti's like, oh, my God. Like, if I had, yeah, enough. Like, you know, I, you know,

690
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:44,160
I've heard every dead and so she started to tell the story. And he was like, okay, that is pretty

691
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:50,880
funny. Like, even he got the whole thing that here I am, you know, a, basically a dancer in an exercise

692
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:59,280
video with OJ Simpson witnessing this guy, you know, and his behavior and his reprehensible behavior

693
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:05,600
literally right before the murders took place. And developing this very weird bond with him, you know,

694
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:10,000
obviously, you know, for whatever reason he took a liking to me, I think, because my dancing in the

695
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:16,400
video was so bad it made him look good. You know, they were literally the choreographer was going to

696
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:23,600
fire me until OJ went, whoa, you can't get rid of Rob because his dancing is so bad it's making me

697
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:30,400
look good. You know. And that would be me. So I feel not very relatable as well. That's why,

698
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:37,760
that's absolutely why a celebrity would keep me around. Like, I need someone less coordinated to,

699
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:43,200
you know, make sure that other people have someone to point and laugh at. Exactly. Yeah. That's why I

700
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:51,840
keep you around. Yeah. Yeah. So for your listeners, you can Google OJ Simpson workout video, OJ Simpson

701
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:59,040
outtakes from the workout video and you'll see two things. You'll see OJ doing horrible, terrible

702
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:04,720
things that at the time we were the only people on the planet that knew about because there was no

703
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:11,280
YouTube back then. And the other thing is is looking at me in the background, sweating profusely in this

704
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:17,760
gray shirt with a very stern expression on his face, you're going to go, he looks like the guy that

705
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:26,160
might have committed the crime. I know I have seen it before, but I'm going to find it so that we can

706
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:32,800
link it in the show. Oh, that's fine. You should do that. Yeah. Because I mean, even now when I look at

707
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:40,160
it, I'm like, why did they not bring me in for questioning? I have no idea. Yeah. Because I'm in the

708
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:45,680
background doing my bad exercise moves. I mean, I look like there's something wrong with that guy.

709
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:52,880
I really thought, oh, this is where Robert has to tell like a very different side of his, like

710
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:59,040
celebrity stories. Like, I thought for sure as well. I'm thinking, yeah, I think he's going to get

711
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:04,000
dragged in maybe. We'll see how this plays out. Yeah, that would have been that really would

712
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:09,040
would have been a true crime, true crime show, right? You know, like different book, different

713
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:16,800
double dip. Yeah, double dip. Yeah. Well, perfect. Before we lose you to, I mean, my goodness,

714
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,560
that gorgeous Malibu glow. I'm not jealous at all. Okay.

715
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:32,400
I'm going to grab our tarot deck. Oh, yes. I very sure. Yes. It was a, I know I saw the credit card

716
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:38,000
charges come through for $39.99. It was on my debit card, though. I don't know what the heck. I didn't

717
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:43,200
even know that debit card. Yeah, you're not supposed to use those. I heard. That's what I heard. Yeah,

718
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:50,560
you know, I never listen to any of these corporate security experts. Well, who does? Exactly.

719
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:58,640
Okay. So Cassie, I did our shuffle here. Do you want to select card number one? Okay, is this for the book?

720
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:06,960
I'm going to go ahead and say I'm pulling a card just for more inside about the book. Anything

721
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:13,600
that we want to do. Okay, and I'll pick Robert's card. I'll take, I'll, I'll, yeah, step in front of that.

722
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:25,440
Bullet drain. This is funny. We got the justice card. We just got that one recently. And it's not

723
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:32,080
in reverse, though. It's in, it's right. Side up. Wow. Well, I mean, that could not be more appropriate.

724
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:38,720
I know. Isn't that funny? That is really incredible. That the corporate spy gets the justice card.

725
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:48,960
And a little taste of justice, spoiler alert, right? Let's see, I'm going to go to the interpretation.

726
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:55,920
And we have our deck is PNW themed. So it has a bunch of different animals from the Pacific

727
01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:01,760
Northwest on it. And I think this was the Osprey, right? I think you're right. Yeah. Holding a fish.

728
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:09,760
Yeah. Well, surprising. No one are keywords for the justice card. Our rectification,

729
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:17,200
decision, finding balance, legal matters. I don't, I mean, does any of that seem to ring about?

730
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,640
I love rectification. I think that's great. Because you know, that's one of the things, you know,

731
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:25,120
when you write, when you, you know, you spend so many of your, so much of your life, you know,

732
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:31,040
basically your job is lying for a living. You know, you know, there's, there's, again, there's a lot

733
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:36,320
of that that I'm not proud of. And so there's been this, you know, rectification process in writing

734
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:42,320
the book, coming clean, being honest. And then, of course, now trying to be of some small service

735
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:47,120
to people so that they're not getting scammed or ripped off. Now, look, at the end of the day,

736
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:52,240
do I feel bad for Goldman Sachs, the Goldman Sachs and the Wells Fargoes and the blah, blah,

737
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:58,960
blah, blahs of the world? Not really. No. No. No. I'm really certainly hope not. No, not really,

738
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:04,720
you know, and that's what I think is that most of my rusing was targeting, it were all of the

739
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:09,120
rusing was targeting corporations. Now, of course, there were people that I was tricking at those

740
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,760
corporations. So those individuals were, you know, being rused. And that's the part that I don't

741
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:20,080
feel great about. So I'm, I like that word. That's, I mean, I think that's what makes us human, right?

742
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:26,560
Yeah. You can feel bad for those, you know, specific instances, but yeah, I'm with you.

743
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:33,680
If anybody wants to give you a hard time, they can, I'll send them, I'll send them your right.

744
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:37,200
Yeah. Yeah. Send as many people as you know our way.

745
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:43,520
So the mall. Okay. And that's interesting. We got another major arcina card.

746
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:48,160
I'm curious. Have you ever had your cards read before?

747
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:55,280
Oh, I'm going to say I have, but it was so long ago I don't remember it. You know, I mean,

748
01:04:55,280 --> 01:05:01,440
I would, I think I had to have had it want somewhere, you know, it's kind of one of those experiences

749
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:07,920
that I feel like everybody does at some point or another. Yeah. We got the temperance card. It was

750
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:15,040
in reverse. And there's some sort of turtle on it. The turtles mean anything to you?

751
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:23,360
Well, in Hawaii, turtles are good luck. So if you see a turtle, because, yeah, because I think they

752
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:32,640
believe the Polynesians believe that your soul like, like it can be reincarnated as turtles.

753
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,960
You know, yeah, something like that. I'm probably getting this really, really wrong. But,

754
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:43,280
but I do know that the Polynesians believe that your, the spirits of your ancestors are in turtles.

755
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:47,920
Not I'm sure that's other creatures too, but specifically turtles. So it's good luck to see a turtle.

756
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:55,040
What do you know? I like that. Well, and I think this, I don't, I'm going to go out on a limb here

757
01:05:55,040 --> 01:06:02,640
and say this might be more in line with you as a person currently in your life. Keywords for this card

758
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:15,600
are moderation, harmony, acceptance, resolution, cooperation, and patience. Okay. I mean, my, my wife

759
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:22,080
is where is she because she would be telling you that that was the exact that that card is nothing

760
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:29,520
to do with me. We did get it in the reverse. You did get it in the reverse. We got it in the reverse.

761
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:36,000
Well, then, then that makes sense then because patience, cooperation, no, no, no.

762
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:42,720
There's a cute little quote in the in the PNW books specifically. Do you want me to read it real quick?

763
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:47,920
Sure. Okay. So the first little part of this is there is wisdom and staying in my shell.

764
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:53,200
I'm safe from the raccoons prying paws and the hawk will think me a rock.

765
01:06:53,200 --> 01:07:00,480
Now, the one thing I think, I do think about the turtle thing and you know, that other part I think

766
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:08,080
is true, but I think what it is is I have felt like I've been coming out of my shell because you know,

767
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:13,760
I was as a, you know, as a young person, as you know, I only took the corporate spying job because I

768
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:18,000
wanted to be an actor and I was trying very hard to be an actor and I did work a lot as an actor.

769
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:23,920
But ultimately, my acting career didn't pan out the way I had hoped. And so, then I circled away

770
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:32,240
from the creative part of me, which was very disappointing and did all of the spying and then

771
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:37,440
took the job in corporate America, which was so miserable and then had the proverbial midlife crisis.

772
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:42,160
And now I've circled back to the creative person that I had always wanted to be.

773
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:45,440
And so, I mean, that goes back to your college day.

774
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:51,360
Yeah, and I mean, and I think that's the turtle is really, that's really cool that I'm coming out of my

775
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:57,280
shell as a writer now. And that's, that's, I think that's true and I'm really excited about that.

776
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,920
And I hope I continue to come out of my shell as a writer.

777
01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:01,920
Yeah, that's great.

778
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:06,000
I like that. That's a good, I feel like we feel the same here.

779
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:15,600
So, I know we're going to be watching for updates about the fiction as well, because that one, I'm,

780
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:20,720
I'm like too excited for that. I mean, I'll try to temper my excitement and

781
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:27,040
patience, right? And, and you know, we didn't mention it. And I'll just briefly say, you know,

782
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:32,160
keep your fingers crossed because, because Frank Abbott, Nail said such nice things about the book,

783
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:36,640
Hollywood, you know, their ears pricked up because they're like, well, if they catch me if you can's name,

784
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:42,400
this guy's name is on the cover of your book. And so, Ruse is in development for a TV series. Now,

785
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:46,560
you know, yeah, which is great. And it's gone pretty far, but

786
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:51,440
development, you know, there are a lot of things in development in Hollywood. And most of those never

787
01:08:51,440 --> 01:08:58,080
get made. So, I have a healthy dose of skepticism, but I got an email earlier today from the executive

788
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:04,560
producer who has 20 shows on television saying, you know, excited to pick back up on Ruse now,

789
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:08,560
because, you know, obviously the holidays, there was a little bit of a lag. And now we, you know,

790
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:13,840
so, you know, who knows? Maybe at some point I can come back on and we can talk about the TV series.

791
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:20,240
I hope so. Yeah, I mean, luckily for you, you have a little bit more of a background,

792
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:25,360
you know, from your days where, you know, you were acting quite a bit and had a lot of

793
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:31,440
roles and you understand how the industry works in that respect. Because otherwise, that would be a

794
01:09:31,440 --> 01:09:37,520
tough, tough thing to do. Yeah, that's right. I mean, you, you, you, to, to enter this business,

795
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:43,840
you have to be prepared for a lot of disappointment and heartache. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, I've made it.

796
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:51,120
And that's on a good day. No kidding. Yeah. Disappointment and heartache. That's a good day.

797
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:59,440
I like that. Normally it's so crushing, you know, throat ripping out, you know what I mean? Yeah.

798
01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:05,440
Yeah. Yeah. You had some, you had some stories in that vein, for sure. Right. Yeah. Right.

799
01:10:05,440 --> 01:10:09,920
We're not going to tell everybody everything, you know, save some things for the book.

800
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,640
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that.

801
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:19,120
Well, thanks for coming on. That was really fun. I loved it. I loved the book.

802
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:26,080
Well, you guys are fantastic. And anytime, you know, you, if you'll grace me to come back,

803
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:31,440
we'll maybe pick an earlier spot in the day. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm sorry.

804
01:10:31,440 --> 01:10:38,960
I'm not doing. Yeah. But I definitely, I definitely am getting a sunburn. So,

805
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:48,160
oh no. It's a good problem to have in winter. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. We are living in the greatest part

806
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:55,760
of the greatest, just everything is great. And it's rainy. And I love Oregon. I like it here.

807
01:10:55,760 --> 01:11:03,760
Are you convinced? Yes. I really do. But I'm ready for the change in season. So.

808
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:10,400
Well, I tell everyone that is kind enough to have me on a podcast. If you're ever in SoCal,

809
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:16,400
please let me know. You know, we'll meet up for the proverbial, a couple coffee or cocktail.

810
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:21,440
I've had three people take me up on it already. And we've had really lovely times. So,

811
01:11:21,440 --> 01:11:26,480
I hope you guys will, you know, take me up on it if you're ever down this way. Oh, perfect.

812
01:11:26,480 --> 01:11:31,440
Well, I have to plan a trip. Yeah. I was going to say is if I needed another reason to visit Malibu.

813
01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:39,360
And come on. Yeah. Thank you so much, Robert. I'm super excited. I hope we'll be chatting with you

814
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:47,920
again about your television re-day view. Okay. Well, thank you both. And have a great great weekend.

815
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:51,760
You too. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

816
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:58,720
So for all of you that are listening, if you have any true crime or paranormal stories that you

817
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:05,120
want us to share, maybe with a whole Pacific Northwest. Yes. We would love to read them on the pod.

818
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:14,960
Yes. We will read them out loud. Not just in our heads. Yes. They don't have to be from the Pacific

819
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:23,760
Northwest. If you would like to share email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com.

820
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:31,680
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821
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:38,880
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822
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:44,880
Please also rate and review us on whatever platform you're listening to and check out our stories

823
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:53,680
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824
01:12:53,680 --> 01:13:07,680
find us on patreon and support the show. Bitchin. Pnwhauntsandhomicides.com

825
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:35,680
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826
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:37,680
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