Wayne Adam Ford: The Serial Killer with a Conscience?

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In this case, our deep dive is motivated by the fact that if you google serial killer

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with a conscience, you're likely to return a handful of results.

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Most of them are far more widely known than this guy, but Wayne Adam Ford may be returned

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as one of a number of potential results.

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Hi Cassie.

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Hi Caitlyn.

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Hello creepy people.

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Hello!

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Hellooooooo!

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Oh gosh, you really hung on there.

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I made it a little ghosty.

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You're just like gearing up for spooky season.

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It's coming.

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It's here in my heart all the time, but you know, if you're new to our creepy corner of

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the world, this is PNW Haunts and Homicides where we chat about true crime paranormal and

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all things creepy, spooky, oogie, sometimes icky in the Pacific Northwest.

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Most of the time with you?

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Primarily.

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Case, it's icky.

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icky, yeah.

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We also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit deeper insight

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into our topic.

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So make sure to stick around if you're into tarot and all things kind of, whichy and cool

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and fun and intuitive and artistic.

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Ooh, look at you.

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I don't know.

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So what do we have for morning announcements today Caitlin?

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Ooh, morning announcements.

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We actually have a live coming up as you're listening to this.

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If you're listening to it on the date that it releases, we have a live for our Patreon

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subscribers this Saturday.

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Oh my gosh, it's going to be so much fun.

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I'm super excited.

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It's the first one like I'm kind of doing.

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Yeah.

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So I think you did the other two.

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Do we only have two or three?

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I can't remember.

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I literally, wow.

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Yeah, couldn't tell you.

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I'm super excited because here's the thing you guys with the lives.

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That's the one time where sometimes we both do know the topic.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Cassie didn't know necessarily everything that I was going to talk about in the two lives,

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at least that I'm thinking of.

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And I won't know everything that she's going to talk about, but I know the topic and I'm

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fucking psych.

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And of course, I have some genre specific wares for the live.

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Let me know if you want to know what you guys have.

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I'm going to talk about the live.

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I'm going to talk about the live.

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I'm going to talk about the live.

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I'm still working on finalizing some spoiler alert.

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There's going to be a part two to this.

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Still working on finalizing part of part two.

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Part of part two.

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I don't think that my angle is going to be trying to convince you

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that this guy has a conscience.

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say no.

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But I think it's an interesting aspect

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that a lot of the coverage has sort of glombed onto.

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And we'll get to that.

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But I think based on that alone,

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his background might be worth examining.

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If you disagree, then you're just going to be ever so slightly short

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on content for a second.

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L'eshrog?

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Go listen to one of the older episodes.

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Yeah.

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Of course, I'm burying some of the most compelling reasons

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to discuss this case.

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I'm burying the most compelling reasons

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to discuss this case.

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But that's because you have to agree to come along for the ride.

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If you want the cookie, my dudes.

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What if I don't agree?

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You don't have a choice.

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We literally have a partnership agreement.

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There's no free will in this arrangement.

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No, there sure isn't.

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Wayne Adam Ford was born in December of 1961.

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Of course, it figures that he would be a sage.

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Oh, yes.

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Aren't they all?

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I mean, a lot of them.

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Statistically speaking, yes.

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I just want to throw out, I know a really amazing sage.

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And I just want to throw that out there.

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They are not a serial killer.

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Yeah, that's true.

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Not not not not everybody is.

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Yeah.

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Hi, Hannah.

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Thank goodness.

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Thank goodness you're not a serial killer

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because I love with you.

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Yeah.

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I mean, you're not, right?

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Right?

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Hannah.

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Hannah.

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Right?

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You know Dexter's girlfriend's name was Hannah.

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Interesting.

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Oh, I don't know.

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I was thinking of Dexter too when you said serial killer

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with a conscience.

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Oh, you don't know he's so much had a conscience as I mean,

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he had the code.

265
00:08:08,020 --> 00:08:09,020
Yeah.

266
00:08:09,020 --> 00:08:11,020
It was like a way of formula.

267
00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:13,020
A congeal for him.

268
00:08:13,020 --> 00:08:14,020
That's true.

269
00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:17,020
At roughly two years old, he suffered a fall

270
00:08:17,020 --> 00:08:21,020
and head injury that required three stitches.

271
00:08:21,020 --> 00:08:29,020
As a toddler, there was also a fecal smearing incident

272
00:08:29,020 --> 00:08:31,020
in the family home.

273
00:08:31,020 --> 00:08:35,020
That's all I really want to say about that.

274
00:08:35,020 --> 00:08:38,020
Well, not exactly all.

275
00:08:38,020 --> 00:08:40,020
But we're moving quickly through this.

276
00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:45,020
If you're a psych major or really interested in the psych angle

277
00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:51,020
of cases, just generally, then I guess maybe I'm only

278
00:08:51,020 --> 00:08:55,020
even mentioning it for your potential benefit, I guess.

279
00:08:55,020 --> 00:08:58,020
But I digress.

280
00:08:58,020 --> 00:09:03,020
This is not an altogether uncommon occurrence in young children.

281
00:09:03,020 --> 00:09:07,020
And for such a wide range of experience,

282
00:09:07,020 --> 00:09:12,020
for such a wide array of reasons, some of which related

283
00:09:12,020 --> 00:09:17,020
to emotional or psychological development,

284
00:09:17,020 --> 00:09:22,020
as well as neurological differences, and any number of other factors

285
00:09:22,020 --> 00:09:28,020
that I may not even be aware of just from my cursory research.

286
00:09:28,020 --> 00:09:33,020
I'll be honest, most of which, I don't feel super qualified to speak to.

287
00:09:33,020 --> 00:09:35,020
Is there hard to understand?

288
00:09:35,020 --> 00:09:38,020
Yeah, because I mean, number one, I'm not a parent.

289
00:09:38,020 --> 00:09:45,020
Not that you need to be a parent to be informed about childhood development.

290
00:09:45,020 --> 00:09:50,020
But I'm also not a licensed medical or mental health professional.

291
00:09:50,020 --> 00:09:55,020
And some of this kind of dips a toe into those waters, for sure.

292
00:09:55,020 --> 00:10:03,020
I have also encountered this behavior in scenarios that we're not going to dig into today.

293
00:10:03,020 --> 00:10:09,020
But it's just also not a topic that I'm psyched to explore, if I'm being honest.

294
00:10:09,020 --> 00:10:10,020
Yeah, I mean, neither.

295
00:10:10,020 --> 00:10:11,020
Yeah.

296
00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:17,020
And of course, last but not least, there's the fact that I, myself, do not, in fact, poop.

297
00:10:17,020 --> 00:10:23,020
So instead, let's talk about his parentage,

298
00:10:23,020 --> 00:10:30,020
because by the end of this, you may have some questions about the people that raised this man.

299
00:10:30,020 --> 00:10:32,020
I'm sure we will.

300
00:10:32,020 --> 00:10:34,020
Yes.

301
00:10:34,020 --> 00:10:36,020
I sure did.

302
00:10:36,020 --> 00:10:41,020
Wayne's father, Jean, was born in 1938 in Missouri.

303
00:10:41,020 --> 00:10:44,020
He was the eldest of eight children in his family.

304
00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:53,020
And from an early age, he'd cared for his many younger siblings while they were growing up, primarily in the state of California.

305
00:10:53,020 --> 00:10:55,020
Damn, that's hard.

306
00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:58,020
Yes, kids raising kids.

307
00:10:58,020 --> 00:11:02,020
Right, being a caretaker when you are a child yourself.

308
00:11:02,020 --> 00:11:11,020
Jean would grow up to become a military man and a strict disciplinarian, the latter perhaps owing to serving in the Navy,

309
00:11:11,020 --> 00:11:16,020
because I feel like they're particularly drill sergeant D.

310
00:11:16,020 --> 00:11:17,020
Are they?

311
00:11:17,020 --> 00:11:18,020
I don't know.

312
00:11:18,020 --> 00:11:19,020
I don't know.

313
00:11:19,020 --> 00:11:21,020
Anyone military, I assume, is going to be kind of like that.

314
00:11:21,020 --> 00:11:23,020
Yeah, I would think.

315
00:11:23,020 --> 00:11:25,020
Or the total opposite.

316
00:11:25,020 --> 00:11:27,020
It's really, you know, up in the air.

317
00:11:27,020 --> 00:11:28,020
It could go.

318
00:11:28,020 --> 00:11:29,020
Yeah.

319
00:11:29,020 --> 00:11:34,020
But he actually tested in the top 1% of his incoming class.

320
00:11:34,020 --> 00:11:37,020
So he went into intelligence work.

321
00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:38,020
Oh, okay.

322
00:11:38,020 --> 00:11:41,020
So, yes.

323
00:11:41,020 --> 00:11:46,020
Wayne's mother, Karen, was a cold and distant woman of German descent.

324
00:11:46,020 --> 00:11:49,020
At least once she became a mother.

325
00:11:49,020 --> 00:11:51,020
Oh, okay.

326
00:11:51,020 --> 00:11:54,020
Right, because she was a person prior to giving birth.

327
00:11:54,020 --> 00:11:55,020
She was?

328
00:11:55,020 --> 00:11:56,020
Are you sure?

329
00:11:56,020 --> 00:11:57,020
Yes.

330
00:11:57,020 --> 00:12:01,020
She was, she was always German.

331
00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:11,020
But the cold and distant thing may have been more specific to her particular parenting style than her actual personality.

332
00:12:11,020 --> 00:12:14,020
Did you know that my last name is German?

333
00:12:14,020 --> 00:12:16,020
I guess I should have realized that.

334
00:12:16,020 --> 00:12:18,020
I've never thought about it.

335
00:12:18,020 --> 00:12:20,020
Yeah, so I am not, I am not German.

336
00:12:20,020 --> 00:12:23,020
I am not from Germany, but I have ancestors and Germany.

337
00:12:23,020 --> 00:12:26,020
It's where my last name comes from.

338
00:12:26,020 --> 00:12:31,020
It translates to rooster.

339
00:12:31,020 --> 00:12:34,020
So my last name is basically cock.

340
00:12:34,020 --> 00:12:36,020
Wow.

341
00:12:36,020 --> 00:12:40,020
Just so everyone knows.

342
00:12:40,020 --> 00:12:43,020
I just wow.

343
00:12:43,020 --> 00:12:45,020
Karen was a small woman.

344
00:12:45,020 --> 00:12:51,020
My source material indicates roughly 5 to 106 pounds.

345
00:12:51,020 --> 00:12:53,020
Oh, oddly specific, but okay.

346
00:12:53,020 --> 00:12:54,020
Very tiny.

347
00:12:54,020 --> 00:12:55,020
Uh-huh.

348
00:12:55,020 --> 00:13:06,020
I realize we placed a great deal of importance on the weight of a woman back then and will actually until about 12 noon today,

349
00:13:06,020 --> 00:13:17,020
when the threat level of having a slightly elevated BMI was downgraded from threat level red to orange.

350
00:13:17,020 --> 00:13:19,020
Just to orange.

351
00:13:19,020 --> 00:13:20,020
Yeah, just orange.

352
00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:22,020
Which just fun fact.

353
00:13:22,020 --> 00:13:29,020
I will include a link to a reference page where you can read about threat levels if you're not a kid of the early 2000s.

354
00:13:29,020 --> 00:13:36,020
Anyway, aside from being what I now realize as an adult woman was essentially rail thin.

355
00:13:36,020 --> 00:13:39,020
Karen was outdoorsy as a young girl.

356
00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:46,020
She likely never saw herself in her eventual role of stay at home, wife and mother back then.

357
00:13:46,020 --> 00:13:56,020
Aww. That makes me want to pull my grandma's wedding dress out of the suitcase in the closet, because it's comically small.

358
00:13:56,020 --> 00:13:58,020
Tiny, tiny weeny.

359
00:13:58,020 --> 00:14:03,020
I tried it on when I was like 11 and we could barely get it to, yeah, oh my gosh.

360
00:14:03,020 --> 00:14:06,020
I was like, listen.

361
00:14:06,020 --> 00:14:09,020
Okay, did you have less ribs back then?

362
00:14:09,020 --> 00:14:12,020
Like they had less processed food.

363
00:14:12,020 --> 00:14:14,020
I'm just going to go out on a limb here.

364
00:14:14,020 --> 00:14:23,020
I mean, but I'm just saying like I was a leaven and this had fit a 18 year old woman.

365
00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:24,020
Yeah, what?

366
00:14:24,020 --> 00:14:25,020
What?

367
00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:27,020
Maybe just smaller bones, you know?

368
00:14:27,020 --> 00:14:32,020
I mean, I feel like I'm not a particularly big-bond person either.

369
00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:33,020
I am.

370
00:14:33,020 --> 00:14:34,020
I don't know.

371
00:14:34,020 --> 00:14:35,020
I'm very dense.

372
00:14:35,020 --> 00:14:43,020
I feel like just like I just want to go back in time and offer her like a couple of, I don't know,

373
00:14:43,020 --> 00:14:45,020
I don't have any fighters at least.

374
00:14:45,020 --> 00:14:50,020
You know, we don't want her to like, have her stomach get over full, but like,

375
00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:54,020
sliders, you know, you can like eat ones, see how you feel.

376
00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:57,020
Yeah, maybe a little spinach depth on the side.

377
00:14:57,020 --> 00:14:58,020
Oh, bitch.

378
00:14:58,020 --> 00:15:00,020
Okay.

379
00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:08,020
The pair met at a birthday party when Jean was stationed in Germany and Karen was just 16 years old

380
00:15:08,020 --> 00:15:17,020
and had only recently moved back to her family's country of origin, aka Germany, also Germany.

381
00:15:17,020 --> 00:15:19,020
Always Germany.

382
00:15:19,020 --> 00:15:24,020
From Texas, which I have to imagine was a bit of a culture shock.

383
00:15:24,020 --> 00:15:25,020
Damn.

384
00:15:25,020 --> 00:15:26,020
Yes.

385
00:15:26,020 --> 00:15:37,020
Jean was 20 years old, 63 and 235 pounds with a dark mustache, reminiscent of red butler.

386
00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:40,020
I don't know who that is.

387
00:15:40,020 --> 00:15:43,020
Worry not.

388
00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:47,020
Don't worry, my notes say.

389
00:15:47,020 --> 00:15:51,020
It took me a minute to place that name as well.

390
00:15:51,020 --> 00:16:00,020
The name of his co-stars, fictional character, might spark at least a fuzzy image or memory in the old grey matter though.

391
00:16:00,020 --> 00:16:02,020
Scarlet O'Hara.

392
00:16:02,020 --> 00:16:05,020
I've only seen it one time.

393
00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:08,020
Oh, okay, but she knows it because that was a very blank stare, Cassie.

394
00:16:08,020 --> 00:16:09,020
I've seen it one time.

395
00:16:09,020 --> 00:16:11,020
It was very long.

396
00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:12,020
Yeah.

397
00:16:12,020 --> 00:16:14,020
I don't remember it.

398
00:16:14,020 --> 00:16:17,020
Well, you will remember this.

399
00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:20,020
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

400
00:16:20,020 --> 00:16:21,020
I've heard that before.

401
00:16:21,020 --> 00:16:22,020
Okay.

402
00:16:22,020 --> 00:16:24,020
For the rest of you, no?

403
00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:25,020
Anything?

404
00:16:25,020 --> 00:16:26,020
Bueller?

405
00:16:26,020 --> 00:16:28,020
Bueller?

406
00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:30,020
Another dated movie reference?

407
00:16:30,020 --> 00:16:31,020
Huh?

408
00:16:31,020 --> 00:16:32,020
Very dated.

409
00:16:32,020 --> 00:16:33,020
No.

410
00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:40,020
If that last line didn't clue you in, then I feel it's my duty to inform you that you have homework now.

411
00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:42,020
Just Google it, okay?

412
00:16:42,020 --> 00:16:46,020
Just literally Google that one line and the movie is going to come up.

413
00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:47,020
I guarantee you.

414
00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:48,020
It's iconic.

415
00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:49,020
Just do it.

416
00:16:49,020 --> 00:16:50,020
Is it gone with the wind?

417
00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:51,020
Gone with the wind, okay.

418
00:16:51,020 --> 00:16:56,020
It's probably going to be part of the pop culture, either, for about another hundred years.

419
00:16:56,020 --> 00:16:58,020
So watch the damn film.

420
00:16:58,020 --> 00:17:02,020
Or at least a couple of clips from YouTube.

421
00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:03,020
Okay.

422
00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:04,020
Come on.

423
00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:06,020
I know there was something about a curtain dress.

424
00:17:06,020 --> 00:17:07,020
And I know that.

425
00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:08,020
There was?

426
00:17:08,020 --> 00:17:09,020
From New Girl.

427
00:17:09,020 --> 00:17:12,020
It was in the movie.

428
00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:18,020
There was also a scene where she drinks aftershave.

429
00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:20,020
Oh my God!

430
00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:23,020
I like how you went British there.

431
00:17:23,020 --> 00:17:29,020
Apparently the cure for the Southern thing that's been popping up for us all day is just to...

432
00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:30,020
Just go British.

433
00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:31,020
Yeah.

434
00:17:31,020 --> 00:17:34,020
Now fast forward just a little bit.

435
00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:40,020
Karen was two months pregnant with Wayne's brother Rodney when the couple got married.

436
00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:45,020
Their wedding was held in the small village where her grandmother lived and was presided

437
00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:48,020
over by the mayor at the time.

438
00:17:48,020 --> 00:17:49,020
Dang, popular.

439
00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:50,020
Really small village.

440
00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:52,020
Yeah, really small.

441
00:17:52,020 --> 00:17:55,020
He was the only guy who was ordained in the village.

442
00:17:55,020 --> 00:17:56,020
Yes.

443
00:17:56,020 --> 00:17:57,020
Yes.

444
00:17:57,020 --> 00:18:00,020
And then the mayor/efficient.

445
00:18:00,020 --> 00:18:09,020
Flash, judge, slash, sheriff, sheriff, head baker.

446
00:18:09,020 --> 00:18:14,020
Karen asserted later that their relationship changed that night.

447
00:18:14,020 --> 00:18:22,340
Karen implied in interviews, if not directly and implicitly stated, that Jean sexually abused

448
00:18:22,340 --> 00:18:25,020
her beginning from that night forward.

449
00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:27,020
Oh no.

450
00:18:27,020 --> 00:18:28,020
Yes.

451
00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:29,020
He just waited until she was trapped.

452
00:18:29,020 --> 00:18:30,020
I guess.

453
00:18:30,020 --> 00:18:31,020
Ugh.

454
00:18:31,020 --> 00:18:38,620
In a pattern more recognizable than plaid or polka dots.

455
00:18:38,620 --> 00:18:45,020
For many of us at least, Jean quickly became domineering an abusive according to Karen.

456
00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:47,020
That sucks.

457
00:18:47,020 --> 00:18:49,340
I don't care for it.

458
00:18:49,340 --> 00:18:54,020
She also claimed that Wayne had been a product of marital rape.

459
00:18:54,020 --> 00:18:55,020
Oh.

460
00:18:55,020 --> 00:19:03,020
Regardless of whether or not that was true, it wouldn't even be considered a crime back then.

461
00:19:03,020 --> 00:19:06,020
Nearly anywhere in the world.

462
00:19:06,020 --> 00:19:07,020
Barf.

463
00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:08,020
Yeah.

464
00:19:08,020 --> 00:19:09,020
Absolute barf.

465
00:19:09,020 --> 00:19:10,020
Yeah.

466
00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:12,020
They are not your property, even if you marry them.

467
00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:13,020
Yeah.

468
00:19:13,020 --> 00:19:14,020
Doesn't give you the right to shit.

469
00:19:14,020 --> 00:19:15,020
Yeah.

470
00:19:15,020 --> 00:19:17,020
You're going to be really angry.

471
00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:19,020
Oh, I'm already there.

472
00:19:19,020 --> 00:19:20,020
Yeah.

473
00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:22,020
You think you are.

474
00:19:22,020 --> 00:19:28,180
Wayne would be a teenager himself and likely learning about the birds and the bees before

475
00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:33,620
the very first state in the U.S. outlawed marital rape.

476
00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:35,020
Way to go, South Dakota.

477
00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:36,020
Woo.

478
00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:39,020
Care to play a guessing game, Cassie?

479
00:19:39,020 --> 00:19:41,020
Maybe.

480
00:19:41,020 --> 00:19:47,580
What year do you think it was that South Dakota struck down the quote, "marital exemption."

481
00:19:47,580 --> 00:19:48,580
It's okay.

482
00:19:48,580 --> 00:19:50,380
I didn't expect you to know.

483
00:19:50,380 --> 00:19:51,580
I'm really bad at dates.

484
00:19:51,580 --> 00:19:52,580
No.

485
00:19:52,580 --> 00:19:55,580
And it's 1986.

486
00:19:55,580 --> 00:19:57,940
You're not going to like it.

487
00:19:57,940 --> 00:19:59,340
No one likes it.

488
00:19:59,340 --> 00:20:02,020
Nebraska was such a close second.

489
00:20:02,020 --> 00:20:07,940
This state is credited in some sources as being the first.

490
00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:12,220
That's not a very good clue, but more importantly, that's right.

491
00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:21,540
You do smell a tangent because until 1976, every state had a marital exemption.

492
00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:27,540
That allowed a husband to rape his wife without fear of legal consequences.

493
00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:34,820
Despite being illegal now, certain states still treat spousal or marital rape differently

494
00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:37,500
than other rape offenses.

495
00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:45,240
I'm looking at the stragglers on this legal front like Ohio and Minnesota with much side

496
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:53,720
eye because honestly, they had some pretty significant loopholes leading up to as recent

497
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,280
as 2019.

498
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,760
That's disgusting.

499
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,960
It's not different.

500
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,200
It's the same.

501
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,200
Rape is rape.

502
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,200
No means no.

503
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:08,200
Fuck yourself.

504
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,200
Yeah.

505
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,200
Oh, man.

506
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:16,240
I'm really glad we're on the same page about that.

507
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,240
This could have been the end of the podcast.

508
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:24,320
But let's get to the lightning round of this horrific game, shall we?

509
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,320
Care to guess when this sort of enlightened way of thinking of women and wives is, I don't

510
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:37,680
know, people rather than seminal receptacles hit the sheets in, I don't know.

511
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,680
Let's just pick Germany.

512
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,360
And you've unlocked another quote.

513
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:52,440
In 1997, laws were amended to criminalize marital rape, incorporate gender neutral language

514
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:58,080
and recognize the effect of psychological coercion.

515
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:07,880
In 2016, German laws were rewritten to remove a previous requirement that a victim physically

516
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:13,200
resist their assailants and be overcome by force.

517
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,280
Oh, okay.

518
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:20,720
Wow.

519
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,080
This is why we can't have nice things.

520
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,440
Just like the dates on these are mind blowing.

521
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,800
Because you think like duh, duh.

522
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:31,800
Yeah.

523
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,560
It's pretty duh.

524
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,480
Yeah.

525
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:41,920
Or what it's worth, Jean denied her version of events in his own interviews.

526
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,560
According to a quote recorded shortly after learning that Karen had actually shared her

527
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:54,240
version of events regarding his conception with Wayne, he was supposedly deeply saddened,

528
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,480
saying, that's really sad.

529
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:03,840
Though it should be noted that according to context provided in some source materials,

530
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,320
he seems to be referring to the fact that this was shared with Wayne.

531
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:16,880
Oh, he said that Wayne was told this version of events.

532
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,840
And that's what was sad.

533
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:19,840
Okay.

534
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:26,280
So his father denies this allegation, but doesn't seem to be particularly concerned with how

535
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:33,720
sad a fact it is that this accounting of events is what his ex-wife lived.

536
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,720
That was her experience.

537
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,960
That's what she shared about their marriage.

538
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:40,960
Don't get me wrong.

539
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,880
I hate it from every single angle.

540
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,480
Maybe I'm projecting here, but it doesn't seem like he's particularly concerned regarding

541
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,320
the allegation itself.

542
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:58,600
And that feels more than a little gross, regardless of what the laws governing their

543
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,240
marriage at the time might have stipulated.

544
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,800
Yeah, I was just going to say because he doesn't really have to be concerned.

545
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,760
I mean, he really doesn't have anything to be concerned about.

546
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:11,760
He's fine.

547
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:20,640
I mean, just his reputation, I guess, but he's a white man.

548
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:21,640
There's nothing else to say.

549
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:22,640
Yeah.

550
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:23,640
Nope.

551
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:24,640
Nope.

552
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:25,640
There sure is.

553
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,200
You know what else is really sad?

554
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,240
Well, frankly, a lot about this family and this case.

555
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,760
And that's before Wayne's serious criminal history ever even begins.

556
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:41,760
Yeah.

557
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,560
Let's remember this is actually about Wayne.

558
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:45,560
Yeah.

559
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,800
Story of his life, right?

560
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,040
I mean, your parents have a lot to do with your life.

561
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:58,400
So although it may have been pretty common place for the era, by 19, Karen was saddled

562
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:04,600
with two kids, one of which she may have deeply resented.

563
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,800
She also had a husband that was away for his role in intelligence for six months or more

564
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:10,800
at a time.

565
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,600
That sounds great.

566
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:18,480
I literally next line, Cassie, which to be honest, it does sound like that last bit about

567
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,560
the hubs being away might have been the only upside for her.

568
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,560
Yeah.

569
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,240
In this instance, major, major plus.

570
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,400
And then she stuck taking care of the kids alone, which honestly, if he was home, she was

571
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,080
probably still stuck taking care of the kids alone.

572
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,080
Yeah.

573
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,360
At this point in history, let's face it, like it's just better if he's gone, I think, for

574
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:40,360
her.

575
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:46,440
Young Wayne seemed to crave both of his parents attention and affection without it being

576
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,520
returned from either parental figure.

577
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,520
No.

578
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:56,360
There's a lot of complicated feelings to unpack regarding this family and their backstory,

579
00:25:56,360 --> 00:26:03,760
but unfortunately, this isn't a session with an appropriately licensed therapist as previously

580
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:04,760
discussed.

581
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,560
I want to be real clear about that.

582
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:13,880
We can ruminate on the facts and the various counts, but we can't really do as much as the

583
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:21,280
empath in me wants to do in order to fix the countless broken or damaged lives that are

584
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,360
intertwined here.

585
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:27,240
I guess that might really be the saddest part.

586
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,240
Yeah.

587
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,080
Because where do you trace all of this back to?

588
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:39,000
And there's just a lot of what I think most people would consider evil, just ugliness.

589
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,000
Yeah.

590
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,680
Just keeps getting trickled down through the family line.

591
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,920
That's trickled down economics.

592
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,160
Reagan invented that.

593
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,160
Oh, really?

594
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,880
You had no idea.

595
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,840
It's frequently been reported that although Jean denied the allegations in interviews that

596
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:04,100
Karen likely needed to disassociate from her youngest son as a result of her PTSD and

597
00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:10,640
trauma following the sexual assault by her husband that resulted in her pregnancy with

598
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,640
Wayne.

599
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,240
It's just like a daily reminder that's so sad.

600
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,360
We know that Karen had at least one prior pregnancy that she carried to term.

601
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:30,440
She had given birth to Wayne's brother Rodney, aka his father, Jean's clear favorite.

602
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,800
So another element of just like, yeah, be better.

603
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,520
This was according to some recollections provided later at least.

604
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:45,120
So a lot of people felt like, oh, yeah, no, it was totally like obvious that Jean had a

605
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:49,280
favorite child, which is not great.

606
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,360
I don't understand why.

607
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,160
You made the other one happen too.

608
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,160
Yeah.

609
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:06,000
I mean, as kids grow up, they have their own individual personalities and, you know, I get

610
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:13,320
that there might be characteristics that like you relate to one child more in certain respects

611
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,120
than another, but you don't get to have a favorite child.

612
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:18,120
That's, yeah.

613
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:19,880
I don't know.

614
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,880
I mean, hot take, I guess.

615
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:23,880
Yeah.

616
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:29,120
Is that I don't, I don't think I'm going out on a limb with that idea of that.

617
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:30,880
I don't think so.

618
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,840
The couple fought almost constantly throughout their marriage.

619
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,960
It's probably not hard for most of us to imagine that at this point.

620
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:48,480
And it would get much worse before it eventually, well, it never got better.

621
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,360
Not in a happily ever after sort of way.

622
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:53,960
That's for sure.

623
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,560
Any type of way.

624
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:04,840
In the late 1960s, Jean was assigned to Okinawa, Japan, and the whole family relocated.

625
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:05,840
Wow.

626
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:06,840
Yes.

627
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:15,200
And Karen was miserable there and it led to an eventual suicide attempt.

628
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:21,480
As a result, she returned to Urega, which is in very, very northern California.

629
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:28,440
I still sometimes think of it as Oregon, though, because people actually misattributed it

630
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:35,960
in Oregon, but that's where she started having and heavy air quotes here.

631
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,760
Affair with her husband's 15-year-old brother, Billy.

632
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:41,760
Uh-huh.

633
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,760
I would...

634
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:44,760
Uh-huh.

635
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,760
I was not expecting you to say that.

636
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:47,760
Uh-huh.

637
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:48,760
Wow.

638
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:49,760
Okay.

639
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:50,760
Yeah.

640
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:56,880
Which, listen, if you're a grown-ass married woman sleeping with a 15-year-old boy, that's,

641
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,160
that's not an affair.

642
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,120
We have a different term for that.

643
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,120
That is also rape.

644
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,120
Yeah, that is statutory rape.

645
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,120
Is rape.

646
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,480
It's all rape.

647
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:13,040
And if you're mad at or hate your husband enough to do that with his kid brother to add insult

648
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,840
to injury, it's time to see a divorce lawyer.

649
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:17,840
Yeah.

650
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,520
Because it's bad enough to cheat and it would be bad enough to be unfaithful to your husband

651
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,680
with a child, but then for it to be his kid brother.

652
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:28,680
Yikes.

653
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:29,680
Of course.

654
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:38,320
When Jean returned to Eureka and found out he was livid and forced the family to move

655
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:44,560
after buying a house in Santa Rosa some 200-plus miles away.

656
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,040
Not really sure how that affected his relationship with his brother going forward.

657
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,120
I have to imagine not great.

658
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,120
Probably not great.

659
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,120
Yeah.

660
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,120
How old was she?

661
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:55,640
She was obviously over 18.

662
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:56,640
Yeah.

663
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,000
But I know she was young when they got married.

664
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,840
She was 16 when they got married.

665
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:03,840
I'm guessing.

666
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,080
I mean, she was probably early 20s.

667
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:13,800
I heard an interesting thing about people who are sexually attracted to younger people.

668
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,760
I can't remember where I heard it.

669
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:21,360
I don't know if we talked about it on the podcast with someone who was knowledgeable or if

670
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,040
I was watching a documentary or something.

671
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:30,000
But it was about how when you're sexually traumatized as a child, like she was a child

672
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,280
when she got married and raped, right?

673
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:33,280
Yeah.

674
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,760
It's like your brain kind of stays sexually in that age.

675
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:37,760
Yeah.

676
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:46,800
There's a lot of really interesting sort of psychological principles around sexual trauma

677
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,360
and the effect that abuse has on your brain.

678
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:51,360
Yeah.

679
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:52,360
Not okay.

680
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:53,360
Yeah.

681
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,560
That's such a tough thing because I mean, it's really hard.

682
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,680
It's really like, it's a black and white thing and is it's wrong?

683
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,160
But it's like, there is like this gray area.

684
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,160
Right.

685
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,640
Well, and then of course, there's Mary Kay Litternow.

686
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,560
There's sort of this idea that like, that's not abuse.

687
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,200
You know, she's a woman who's slapped with her.

688
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,560
I mean, not even close.

689
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,080
We're not even talking about like, oh, it's a really mature 17 year old.

690
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,440
We're talking about like a 12 or a 13 year old.

691
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:29,440
Oh, God.

692
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:35,760
An actual child who is not altogether that far off from the age of your own children.

693
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,200
So, no.

694
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,200
No.

695
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,440
No.

696
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:48,080
But we have this tendency to be like, we want to like slap this, you know, boy on the ass,

697
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,600
like it's a locker room.

698
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:50,600
Yeah.

699
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,680
He just won the big game like, oh, good for you.

700
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:54,680
Score.

701
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:55,680
Hot teacher man.

702
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:56,680
It's gross.

703
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:57,680
Yeah, it's not.

704
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,480
No care for it.

705
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:05,880
By 1969, Jean was discharged and returned to living in the family home.

706
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:12,320
But of course, this did nothing to ease the household tension because actually it brought

707
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,520
all of the sources of the tension into the one household.

708
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:16,520
Yeah.

709
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,320
That's how that works.

710
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,400
The couple would divorce in the early 1970s.

711
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:29,160
His parents' separation when Wayne was 10 years old resulted in a greater disconnect between

712
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,640
him and both of his parents as they begin dating again.

713
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:34,640
Oh, okay.

714
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:35,640
Yeah.

715
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:42,240
So, he's just like a little kid that's already feeling as if, you know, they don't love him

716
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:48,280
as much and then that happens and just the disconnect.

717
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:55,960
You know, just that he's not getting what he needs to develop a healthy emotional bond.

718
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:56,960
Yeah.

719
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,480
And then they're just going to go pay attention to their new partners and, right.

720
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:07,600
As Wayne got older, he became increasingly aggressive and his behavior was problematic

721
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,080
at school.

722
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,560
Unfortunately, some of this behavior went beyond the classroom.

723
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:20,880
Karen kicked both boys out of their home, starting with Wayne and then eventually the older brother

724
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:21,880
Rodney.

725
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,400
Oh, that makes sense.

726
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,400
Yeah.

727
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,400
Kick out the younger one first.

728
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,880
Well, she liked him a lot less.

729
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,880
Yeah.

730
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:36,240
So, you know, their father recalled receiving a phone call from Wayne, stating he was out

731
00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:41,240
on the porch and wondered if his father would take him in.

732
00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:42,840
He did.

733
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:49,040
When Rodney was unceremoniously locked out of the home one night, he simply started staying

734
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,080
with the families of neighborhood friends, alternately.

735
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,400
So he was couch surfing.

736
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,720
Rodney or Rod, well, okay.

737
00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:02,080
So it started with Wayne and then it happened to Rodney as well.

738
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:03,080
Oh, okay.

739
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,080
Yeah.

740
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,640
When their father learned of this, he would insist that Rodney come to live with him as

741
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,400
well, much to Wayne's chagrin.

742
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,400
Yeah.

743
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:14,400
He wasn't super psyched.

744
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,560
I can't imagine why.

745
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:17,560
Great.

746
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,800
I love how your favorite child is going to come in love with us, me, the other child that's

747
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,240
just, okay, cool.

748
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:32,280
Wayne didn't like helping his father with construction projects as his brother Rodney did.

749
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:39,920
And you can see where just again, the divide is becoming greater and greater between him

750
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,240
and just about everybody in his potential support system.

751
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:51,760
The issues prevailed when as a teen, Wayne robbed a store while wielding a gun, so escalating

752
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,400
pretty quickly.

753
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,360
I think most of us would like to believe that we'd be self-aware enough to see the writing

754
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,600
on the wall, that this was likely an early cry for help.

755
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:09,840
However, his dad worked out a remarkably lenient punishment for him in this instance.

756
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:16,160
Which is always great, please, let mediocre white men off the hook easily.

757
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,520
When has that ever worked out poorly?

758
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,320
Probably just didn't care.

759
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,120
He said whatever.

760
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,120
Yeah.

761
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,040
He had to wash police cars after school for a few weeks.

762
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:36,040
But eventually, this led to him stealing a cruiser for a joy ride.

763
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,040
Boys will be boys.

764
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,040
Am I right?

765
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,280
Oh, God.

766
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:45,320
Wayne enrolled in the Marine Corps at 17 with the encouragement of his parents.

767
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:53,680
He arrived at boot camp in January of 1979, and thus began his somewhat tumultuous career

768
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,000
in the military.

769
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,960
Though it didn't exactly instill the discipline that his parents might have expected.

770
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,320
In October of 1980, he met Kelly.

771
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:12,520
He was a blonde-haired slender college student known to be a very kind young woman.

772
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:17,040
How that ever ended up happening, I will never know.

773
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,920
He was kind of the worst out the gate.

774
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,080
I mean women like the bad boys.

775
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:23,080
They really do.

776
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,080
We're drawn to...

777
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,080
Yeah.

778
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:33,040
Listen, he would claim that he forgot her number after not calling her for days.

779
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:38,280
And so I presume we're supposed to believe that what?

780
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:39,760
He didn't own a pen?

781
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,280
Couldn't write it down.

782
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:43,280
Okay.

783
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,800
Oh boy.

784
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:51,040
Then on the flip side, he would also have fit several miles off base to come and visit her

785
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,040
at other times.

786
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,920
Classic fuckboy playbook stuff here, guys.

787
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:58,920
Seriously.

788
00:37:58,920 --> 00:37:59,920
Yes.

789
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:04,000
Regass lighting and love bombing at the same time.

790
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,600
Oh, key terms.

791
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,760
Nearly as addictive as crack.

792
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:10,760
Crack a cane?

793
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,160
That is a rumor.

794
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,960
I have not scientifically tested that.

795
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:17,960
Nope.

796
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:18,960
Nope.

797
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,240
Don't plan to.

798
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:25,560
It's exactly the type of energy most of us have been trying to avoid ever since we went

799
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:33,000
through our own personal, douche-filled, rough patches in our respective dating histories.

800
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,880
If I'm wrong, all you have to do is write in and tell me that you have no idea what I'm

801
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,680
talking about.

802
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:45,360
My prediction is we receive zero emails on that topic.

803
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:51,640
If you dated the same person your whole damn life and then married them, you have still

804
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,440
heard from your single friends at one point or another.

805
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:01,360
What a minefield dating can be, so don't email us if you're that person either.

806
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:07,960
Their relationship would take a turn in November 1980 when they saw a car accident on the side

807
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,040
of the road as they drove home from a dinner date.

808
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:18,600
At the scene of the accident, though EMS workers quickly took over and police were on the scene

809
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,280
Wayne was hit by a drunk driver.

810
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:22,280
What?

811
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:23,280
Oh my god.

812
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,240
There was already an accident.

813
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:26,240
Uh-huh.

814
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:33,160
And then the drunk driver hit people that were there as innocent bystanders trying to help

815
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,520
the people that had already been in an accident.

816
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,240
What is going on in this town?

817
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:42,720
Yeah, couldn't tell you.

818
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:50,880
The impact shattered his front teeth, broke his jaw, and allegedly caused a serious head injury.

819
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:51,880
Oh no.

820
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,480
He was even in a coma for nine days.

821
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,440
And you said he already had a head injury as a child?

822
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,640
I mean, he says he did.

823
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,320
It sounds like we have no reason not to believe that, but either way it's bad.

824
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,120
It's not great.

825
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,120
This is also not great.

826
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:17,400
Kelly didn't realize he'd been hit by the drunk driver because she'd been gone for about

827
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,720
20 minutes looking for a pay phone to call 911.

828
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:25,920
Oh, for the first accident.

829
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,640
Oh my gosh.

830
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:34,360
When other witnesses at the scene asked her if she had seen the third vehicle, she responded

831
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:42,000
she'd been in it, to which they countered, "No, the red car."

832
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:47,960
We're going in another bystander, we're both hit by the drunk driver and have been thrown

833
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,840
down in embankment, some 40 feet.

834
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:51,840
Oh my God.

835
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:52,840
Yep.

836
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:53,840
Fuck.

837
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:59,280
She does not realize this, even though people were like, "No, no, no, the other car."

838
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,640
She's still like, there's just a disconnect there.

839
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:02,640
Well, there would be.

840
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:03,640
Yep.

841
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,640
That's very confusing.

842
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,280
There would be.

843
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:11,640
So she drove around looking for him, confused about where he had gone, but also she's

844
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,360
like, "Well, it's kind of a fuck, boy."

845
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,240
Guess he just disappears on our dates now.

846
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:22,440
I mean, boy who cried wolf, that's what happens.

847
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:27,840
Between all the chaos at the scene, neither she or anyone else there realized that the man

848
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,880
that had been hit by the drunk driver and her date had been won in the same.

849
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:33,880
Wow.

850
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:34,880
Yikes.

851
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:40,880
Wayne has frequently maintained that he believes he suffered serious injury to his

852
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:48,920
brain, which I don't doubt, but I just don't know that it's responsible, Wayne.

853
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,200
It's unclear what if any brain damage resulted.

854
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:59,760
However, according to both Kelly and his relatives, his personality drastically changed after

855
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,520
the incident.

856
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:08,720
When he woke from the coma, Wayne asked for her and Kelly came running.

857
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:14,080
When Kelly arrived at the hospital, she was a little confused because there was a sign

858
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:19,160
that said only visitors allowed were family members.

859
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,680
So why the hell did they call her if she wasn't going to be able to visit him?

860
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:29,560
The nurse was relieved to see her and waved her on through, stating that he'd been repeating

861
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:34,920
Kelly's phone number nonstop until they promised to call her.

862
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,840
Oh my gosh, so he did have her number memorized.

863
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,840
He did after...

864
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:46,680
Listen, his face was black and blue at roughly twice its normal size.

865
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:53,840
And aside from his lip being nearly torn off, he was also concussed.

866
00:42:53,840 --> 00:43:00,480
Weird how after a serious injury like what he had that he did, in fact, remember her phone

867
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:01,480
number.

868
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,520
Maybe it just shook it loose a little bit.

869
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:08,000
It shook some things loose, alright?

870
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:13,320
Kelly thought it was pretty sus, that all of a sudden he could remember her phone number

871
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:19,240
without any problem following such a traumatic ordeal, but apparently she didn't feel like

872
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:21,240
pressing the issue.

873
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:26,920
Girl, it's Red Flag City up in that hospital bed.

874
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:28,920
Run.

875
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,520
It's not like he's well enough to follow, so make the most of the opportunity for crying

876
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:34,520
out loud.

877
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:35,520
Seriously, run.

878
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,040
What's he going to do?

879
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,840
Yang Gowd is IV.

880
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,360
Come on, not victim blaming.

881
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:48,920
Just sometimes I wish that I could time travel and, you know, narrate certain people's inner

882
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,560
monologue so that I could motivate them to do the thing that I wish that they had done.

883
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,640
That's not weird, is it?

884
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:57,640
No, okay.

885
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,640
Perfect.

886
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:05,640
Kelly met Karen, so that's Wayne's mother, after the accident.

887
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:12,800
Kelly also ended up caring for him for about a week or so after he was released from hospital.

888
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:19,920
Though Karen reached out to them, Wayne's father and brother apparently did not understand

889
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:25,600
the serious nature of his injuries until years later.

890
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,560
And it's pretty wild.

891
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:35,280
Wayne reported that he had died from the collision and had only been revived after the fact.

892
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,280
Oh, okay.

893
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,600
Now we're talking like near death experience, like, come on.

894
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,040
Did he see Elvis?

895
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,200
Not to my knowledge.

896
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:52,080
Kelly also was said to notice a shift in Wayne, but here's the thing, it didn't scare her off

897
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:57,680
because he was actually seemingly more friendly and kinder than ever.

898
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:58,680
Hmm.

899
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,240
He was cured.

900
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:01,840
He was cured of the fuck boy.

901
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,400
Just a little knock on the head is the fuck boy, Kure.

902
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,040
So I bet you can see where this is going.

903
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:13,920
Two people trauma bonded by a devastating or life altering event.

904
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,880
Well, in May 1981, they alloped.

905
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,560
Oh, did they?

906
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:20,560
Yeah.

907
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:21,800
Sure did.

908
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,200
Once they were married, things apparently changed quickly.

909
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:27,200
Some familiar?

910
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,920
A little bit, a little bit.

911
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,000
Like father like son, allegedly.

912
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:40,080
The typical violent and abusive pattern emerged as he became angry and demanding.

913
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:50,080
He hit her one day when she had the audacity to query about his family after the wedding.

914
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:51,760
Oh, okay.

915
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:58,600
So unreasonable to think that she could just like ask questions about her in-laws.

916
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,880
Honestly, the nerve.

917
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:06,320
Well he tried to hit her actually and he missed, but whatever he did, it broke all of the

918
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,120
knuckles in his right hand.

919
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,120
Holy shit.

920
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:10,120
That isn't karma.

921
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,360
I don't even know what is.

922
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:13,360
I know.

923
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,800
And I'm not the least bit sorry when I say I wish he had shattered a bone in his hand that

924
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:25,160
would have swam throughout his body and lodged into his spine to paralyze him permanently,

925
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:30,800
preferably following a rectal perforation.

926
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,720
Agreed.

927
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:39,640
But of course, as I think you all know, it gets worse and not at all in that way.

928
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:46,360
The rectal perforation, which is own boneway, which would have arguably been way better,

929
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,160
but whatever.

930
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:55,160
As newlyweds, I'm sure they were happily and frequently enjoying, shall we say, marital

931
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,160
relations?

932
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:01,920
Yes, that's what we'll say because I'm secretly 80 years old.

933
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,400
They were bone in.

934
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,440
All the signs have been there, people.

935
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,400
I'm an old.

936
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:14,920
Well as the female body is apt to do at times, Kelly became pregnant.

937
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:20,280
He forced her to have an abortion when she became pregnant, all the while demanding more

938
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:21,280
sex.

939
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:22,280
Why?

940
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,280
They're married.

941
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:30,000
And here's the thing, this is not an abortion that she wanted.

942
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,480
So just barf city all around with this dude.

943
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:34,480
Oh my God.

944
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,240
I mean, I didn't mean by that comment that if you're married, you can't have an abortion.

945
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:42,320
I just meant like, I don't see his reasoning like they're mid-winter child.

946
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:43,320
I just...

947
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:44,320
Yeah.

948
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:52,280
I love it when women have no bodily autonomy, like back then and then also possibly arguably

949
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:57,920
in the near future slash present because we might be living in the prequel of the headmaids

950
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,160
tale.

951
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:08,640
And I know that you don't want to believe me, but it definitely gets even grosser in 1982.

952
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,040
That's when he took a trip to Big Bear with his marine buddies.

953
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:19,280
They went roller skating and met a couple of teenage girls because obviously what a normal

954
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,120
thing to do with your bros.

955
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:28,000
These gross idiots invited two 15 year old girls back to their cabin.

956
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:34,120
The two young girls were assaulted because men are trash and not in the cute way that like

957
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,160
raccoons are lovingly referred to as trash pandas.

958
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:39,160
Ew.

959
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:45,400
At certain points in history, not too distant a time at this point in the timeline, people

960
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,840
hitchhiked without incident.

961
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:52,920
So why would these young girls think that anything bad would happen to them?

962
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,920
You know what I mean?

963
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,280
They should think that.

964
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,800
They should have the right to think that nothing bad will happen to them.

965
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:02,800
Yeah.

966
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:03,800
Yep.

967
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:11,200
That's the part I never understand about all of the rampant victim blaming mentality.

968
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,200
And I'm sorry.

969
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,800
You've probably heard some version of this scenario before, but whether she's 14, 24 or

970
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:26,760
44, a female or a female presenting person should be able to walk down any goddamn street

971
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:33,320
well lit or not at any hour of the day or night, wearing whatever the fuck she feels like,

972
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:38,640
you do not have to be concerned about being sexually assaulted and/or murdered.

973
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:39,960
Wild.

974
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,920
I mean, just a hot take.

975
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,320
I mean, we learn this in fucking elementary school.

976
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,320
Like, stay in your bubble, don't...

977
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:48,320
Yeah.

978
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,320
I can touch your own self.

979
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:51,920
You have a body, touch that.

980
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:53,320
Do what you want with that one.

981
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,920
Don't take someone else's.

982
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:55,920
Yeah.

983
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:56,920
What's theirs?

984
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,880
Sadly, it's just not the world we live in.

985
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:08,800
It's not the reality of the situation at this time and place or any other in human history.

986
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:09,800
Yep.

987
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,120
That's optimistic.

988
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:13,120
Yeah.

989
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,320
I like where it's at.

990
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,560
One of Wayne's friends went to drive the girls home, but when they pulled the vehicle over

991
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,760
to assist another that was stranded on the side of the road, one of the girls screamed

992
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,800
for help indicating they had been assaulted.

993
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:36,280
And it was at this point in the story that I go, "Why the hell does something bad happen

994
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:41,720
every time this guy pulls over to help somebody on the side of the road?"

995
00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:46,600
Some of the details aren't totally clear around this particular portion of the evening

996
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:52,600
and the incident that took place, but the end result was that Wayne was arrested for attempted

997
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,800
rape.

998
00:50:54,800 --> 00:51:01,880
Now that girl would later decline to press charges and was unavailable to make a statement

999
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,280
regarding the incident.

1000
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:11,600
But I think it's fair to say that it's more than likely pretty clear what happened here

1001
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:12,960
and it wasn't good.

1002
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:13,960
And I hate it.

1003
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,160
Okay, bye.

1004
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:21,840
The couple would move shortly thereafter to Santa Ana because he's already been taught

1005
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,920
from an early age that, you know, when you have problems, you just move.

1006
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,680
They can't follow you.

1007
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:33,480
Following the move to Santa Ana, there was a small window of time in the remainder of the

1008
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:38,440
early 1980s where they moved repeatedly.

1009
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:43,160
He was still enlisted in the military at this time, but they were seeking some stability

1010
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,400
in terms of income.

1011
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,640
He would screw up at a job and then they would take off.

1012
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:56,600
He would find something new for work each time to keep them afloat until eventually Kelly

1013
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:04,280
was the one to find gainful employment, which certainly threatened his masculinity.

1014
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:05,880
Of course it did.

1015
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:11,440
His need for control only increased from the early warning signs like telling Kelly what

1016
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:17,080
to wear each day and it only continued to escalate.

1017
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:24,480
One night in 1983 when she went out with coworkers for dinner and he hadn't heard from her, his

1018
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:30,920
paranoia that Kelly was cheating was fueled to a fever pitch.

1019
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:37,920
Presumably drunk by the time she showed up at home, Wayne had geared up in the full camo

1020
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:38,920
get up.

1021
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:40,480
What?

1022
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:46,400
And was lying in wait with his bow and arrow in the yard so that he could catch her red

1023
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:54,360
handed and attack whatever man she was out with and obviously having an affair with because

1024
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,200
nothing says camo like tequila.

1025
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:58,200
Am I right?

1026
00:52:58,200 --> 00:52:59,680
Oh my god.

1027
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:08,000
He was just outside with a bow and arrow hiding and waiting for a person.

1028
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,040
Or maybe that's a whiskey thing.

1029
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,600
Me drink too much whiskey is just what you do.

1030
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,640
Well, Kelly wasn't sticking around to figure it out.

1031
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:24,920
We'll get into their divorce along with the rest of the downward spiral next as in next

1032
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:25,920
week.

1033
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,320
What a freaking weirdo and not in a good way.

1034
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,520
No, not in a good way.

1035
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:37,120
I just picture him with like paint on his face and I know is that not the eyes?

1036
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:38,760
You're exactly crazy eyes.

1037
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:40,800
That's exactly what I picture.

1038
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,280
Oh my god.

1039
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:53,880
This man in what world is that a normal reaction and also like you were going to attack this

1040
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:54,880
person?

1041
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,080
I'm just gonna shoot him with my bow.

1042
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:04,520
Like what is this was just a coworker that like gave her a ride or walked her up to her

1043
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:05,520
door.

1044
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,920
I just asked questions later.

1045
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:08,920
Wow.

1046
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:13,680
Mark the white man model.

1047
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:15,680
The white man model.

1048
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,680
I mean, yeah.

1049
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:18,680
Okay.

1050
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:20,680
Should we do some Taro?

1051
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:21,680
Yeah, let's do Taro.

1052
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,160
Let's see what comes up.

1053
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:26,160
Okay.

1054
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,720
For Mr. Wayney Wayne here.

1055
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:32,640
Hey, I want to know something funny.

1056
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,560
His initials are waff.

1057
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,560
Waff.

1058
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,720
What in the actual wolf?

1059
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:44,720
Wow.

1060
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:49,760
As indie podcasters, we love to show our support of other awesome shows.

1061
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,640
So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week.

1062
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,040
Let's show them some love.

1063
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:59,000
You can find their info in our show notes.

1064
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:03,240
What do you get when you mix someone who loves true crime and horror movies with someone

1065
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:05,280
who's afraid of their own shadow?

1066
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:06,280
Someone like you?

1067
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:07,280
Yeah.

1068
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:08,280
How do you ask?

1069
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,360
You get the perfect podcast.

1070
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,200
We're Carmen and Joanna of Live Laugh Murder Podcast.

1071
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,720
We're not your typical true crime show.

1072
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:20,120
Here at Live Laugh Murder, we tell stories that might be true crime or they might be the

1073
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,080
plot of a horror film.

1074
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:23,760
Can you tell the difference?

1075
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,640
Don't worry though, because all is revealed by the end.

1076
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,440
We are true crime sometimes.

1077
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:30,440
So check us out.

1078
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,840
We release bi-weekly on Saturdays.

1079
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:37,080
And remember to live laugh, but never what Joanna.

1080
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:38,080
Order.

1081
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:39,080
Never murder.

1082
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:40,080
Thanks guys.

1083
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:41,080
Thanks.

1084
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,520
You guys were back.

1085
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:49,080
And don't worry, we did get more wine.

1086
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,080
Well, of course.

1087
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,080
All right.

1088
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:59,720
We're back from our delicious snack break.

1089
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:03,680
You always have to take a break.

1090
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:05,680
Did you drop one?

1091
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:06,680
Oh, okay.

1092
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,040
Was it like that or was it right?

1093
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,640
No, I think it was in the reverse.

1094
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,560
Okay, interesting.

1095
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,160
It was the two of ones.

1096
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,520
Yeah, we'll stop that one aside.

1097
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:21,520
Okay.

1098
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:22,520
I think.

1099
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:27,920
Oh, we got eight of cups.

1100
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:28,920
Okay.

1101
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,880
It's like a shiny lizard gecko thing.

1102
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:33,880
Wow.

1103
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,640
Yeah, we'll have to look at the little book maybe to see.

1104
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,720
What kind of little lizard?

1105
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:41,720
Okay.

1106
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:52,040
Eight of cups, our keywords are turning away, cutting losses, decline, dejection and seriousness.

1107
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:53,040
Walk away.

1108
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,040
Also run.

1109
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,040
Yeah.

1110
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:56,040
Also run.

1111
00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,680
Because you said that in the episode, you're like run away.

1112
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:02,680
Take Kelly Kelly.

1113
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:03,680
Kelly.

1114
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:04,680
Yeah.

1115
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:05,680
Usain.

1116
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:11,760
This card often pictures a person with his or her back to us walking away.

1117
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:16,240
I just like thought of the parents too.

1118
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,040
Wow.

1119
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:23,320
Sometimes a waning moon overhead symbolizes decrease.

1120
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:30,200
When the eight of cups appears, a situation has become untenable and you have decided to turn

1121
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,400
your back on it.

1122
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,080
Now you must strike out in another direction.

1123
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:37,080
Wow.

1124
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:38,080
Okay.

1125
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,640
There was a lot of that in the story.

1126
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:41,640
Yes.

1127
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:42,640
Yeah.

1128
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:43,640
Okay.

1129
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:50,000
The upright interpretation says, you wish things had turned out differently, but you can't

1130
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:56,760
salvage a matter and you realize you must abandon it.

1131
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:02,280
It's time to let go and get out of the situation that has failed despite your best

1132
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:03,280
efforts.

1133
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,200
Oh, your best efforts.

1134
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:06,200
Oh, my gosh.

1135
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:07,200
Yeah.

1136
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,360
Let's move ahead with determination.

1137
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,600
Find a new direction and learn from your experience.

1138
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:14,600
Oh, boy.

1139
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:15,600
Okay.

1140
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:16,600
Well, yeah.

1141
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:22,240
This is giving me chills because obviously I know what happens in part two, but in a reading

1142
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:27,600
about money and investment hasn't paid off or you've lost money through no fault of your

1143
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:32,600
own except perhaps not seeing things accurately.

1144
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:37,000
Cut your losses and conserve your resources.

1145
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:42,120
If the reading is about your job, the aid of cups may recommend pouring your heart and

1146
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,840
soul into an endeavor.

1147
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,320
Don't let distractions throw you off course.

1148
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:53,520
Sometimes this card advises leaving a job that no longer interests you.

1149
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:59,840
In a reading about love, this card can mean ending a relationship that's lost its spark.

1150
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:01,960
Oh, boy.

1151
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:08,080
Conversely, it may show you getting serious about a partnership, giving it your all, all

1152
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,640
of your camo gear.

1153
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:19,160
You're no longer interested in casual flings and there is an extra excerpt.

1154
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:25,120
When you most feel like holding on to something, it is usually the best time to let go.

1155
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:26,120
Holy wow.

1156
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,880
That was good.

1157
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,680
I can't believe you picked this walk away sign too.

1158
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:33,000
It's like blowing my mind.

1159
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:34,000
Okay.

1160
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,680
Should I read this little one while you're looking for the other person?

1161
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:39,680
Yeah.

1162
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:40,680
Okay.

1163
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,840
So it's the Northern alligator lizard, by the way.

1164
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:44,840
Oh.

1165
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,440
And all of the keywords are about the same, but there's this little story here.

1166
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:54,840
Read the alligator lizard shed her past self like a ghost behind her.

1167
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,320
That skin had to serve her well.

1168
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:03,120
It gotten her through plenty of scrapes and taken quite a few in the process.

1169
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,160
It had camo flushed her.

1170
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:08,320
Okay.

1171
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:15,440
It had camo flushed her against the forest floor protecting her from sharp eyed hawks.

1172
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:23,000
She had insulated her as she bashed on the sun, dappled stones, but now it felt tight.

1173
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,080
It felt restrictive.

1174
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,000
She itched to be rid of it.

1175
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:32,480
She had outgrown it and so she stepped out of it, cast it aside.

1176
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,640
It no longer served her.

1177
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:41,880
She moved on more vulnerable to the thorns and needles around her, but no longer constrained

1178
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,080
by who she used to be.

1179
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:45,080
Okay.

1180
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:46,080
All right.

1181
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,680
That camo flushed thing made me poop my pants a little bit.

1182
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:51,400
A little bit, a little bit.

1183
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:52,400
Okay.

1184
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:53,400
Right.

1185
01:00:53,400 --> 01:01:01,000
So two of ones are keywords are developing goals, involvement in a creative project, taking

1186
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,120
action and choices.

1187
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:10,200
This card shows you taking action to accomplish something you feel passionately about, a creative

1188
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,920
project, a business or an adventure.

1189
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:20,200
You may have to make a choice between two options or bring two factors together to achieve

1190
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:24,040
success.

1191
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:29,560
When the two of ones is reversed, it can indicate a delay or difficulty.

1192
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:34,760
You may be in for a surprise that requires you to make changes.

1193
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:38,520
Perhaps someone you relied on or believed in disappoints you.

1194
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,200
Oh, it's kind of like the same vibe a little bit.

1195
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:42,920
A little bit.

1196
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:48,040
If you asked about money, this card may mean financing for a project gets delayed or an

1197
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:52,480
investment doesn't produce a return you'd hoped for.

1198
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:57,920
Use caution in financial partnerships or contracts.

1199
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:03,160
In a reading about work, the reversed two can mean you'll have to work harder than you'd

1200
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:07,680
expected to bring your dream to fruition.

1201
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:11,520
Sometimes it indicates you've gotten off track and need to take action to control a

1202
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:13,520
situation.

1203
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:19,440
You may have to reign in a colleague or contractor or another person may not hold up his or

1204
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:21,600
her end.

1205
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:27,320
In a reading about love, this card advises being upfront and honest with your partner.

1206
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:32,760
There was so much of that in the story, like so much honesty with your partner.

1207
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:33,760
Yeah.

1208
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:34,760
Yeah.

1209
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:35,760
Yeah.

1210
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:40,960
If the relationship is rocky, you may have to make adjustments, especially if you've

1211
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:46,280
been too dependent or detached in the past.

1212
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:47,280
Yeah.

1213
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:48,280
Oh, boy.

1214
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:49,280
Oh, boy.

1215
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:54,720
Well, that was the card that jumped out in the beginning when you were shuffling.

1216
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:55,720
Yeah.

1217
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:58,120
It was just like, hey, I'd go with the other one.

1218
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,120
Yeah.

1219
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:04,360
That one said, there will be some more of these elements in part two.

1220
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:05,360
Oh, it's two.

1221
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:06,360
Yeah.

1222
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:07,360
Oh, boy.

1223
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:11,280
Oh, boy.

1224
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,200
That is a red-tailed hawk on the card, by the way.

1225
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:16,600
Oh, it's a bird of prey.

1226
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:18,720
What's this one talking about?

1227
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,560
Like hawks?

1228
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:21,560
I think it is.

1229
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,800
Something about, yeah, we should go back.

1230
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,200
Now I'm curious.

1231
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,800
Yeah, protecting her from sharp-eyed hawks.

1232
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:28,920
That is so weird.

1233
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,520
Are you guys surprised?

1234
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:32,520
Wow.

1235
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:33,520
Okay.

1236
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:34,520
Well, we're pretty cool.

1237
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:35,520
Okay.

1238
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,120
I'm like little bit.

1239
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:39,120
Oh, my gosh.

1240
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:41,280
I was thinking this the other day.

1241
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:46,280
So you know how we always would say, like, oh, we're not professional readers or anything

1242
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:47,280
yet.

1243
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:48,280
We're just learning.

1244
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,680
I feel like we've leveled up to maybe inner media.

1245
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:53,680
Intermediate?

1246
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:54,680
Okay.

1247
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:55,680
Terror?

1248
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:56,680
I'll take that.

1249
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:00,600
I think we have, because we've done so many readings now for people at the festivals

1250
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:01,600
and stuff.

1251
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:02,600
Yeah, that's true.

1252
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:08,600
We always just kind of say, along with the interpretation, whatever comes to our minds,

1253
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:10,560
that is terror reading.

1254
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:11,560
It really is.

1255
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:12,560
Yeah.

1256
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:13,560
We're doing it.

1257
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,480
We're almost professionals.

1258
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:23,080
If you loved listening to that terror reading and want to see it because obviously, duh,

1259
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:24,080
we're cute.

1260
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:25,080
Yeah.

1261
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:31,140
Become a member of our Patreon, where a video of every terror read is uploaded with the

1262
01:04:31,140 --> 01:04:38,700
ad-free version of the episode each week, which is going to start feeling more significant.

1263
01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:41,180
Very soon.

1264
01:04:41,180 --> 01:04:46,220
Those videos typically have a lot of extras in them as well that we cut out of the regular

1265
01:04:46,220 --> 01:04:47,220
episode.

1266
01:04:47,220 --> 01:04:50,780
So you get to feel like you're behind the scenes a little bit.

1267
01:04:50,780 --> 01:04:53,420
Lowell that.

1268
01:04:53,420 --> 01:04:58,620
Patreon for those of you that maybe are wondering what the hell is that?

1269
01:04:58,620 --> 01:04:59,620
Exactly.

1270
01:04:59,620 --> 01:05:00,620
Please.

1271
01:05:00,620 --> 01:05:06,580
It's a monthly subscription with a range of price points and benefits.

1272
01:05:06,580 --> 01:05:12,620
Every member gets a personalized welcome card, a shout out in an upcoming episode and

1273
01:05:12,620 --> 01:05:19,020
exclusive bonus episodes and a lot of other things, some of which we don't even know about

1274
01:05:19,020 --> 01:05:20,020
yet.

1275
01:05:20,020 --> 01:05:24,460
A lot of other things like a mini terror reading in your welcome card.

1276
01:05:24,460 --> 01:05:29,780
And if you want a special shout out, if you want us to say something different other than

1277
01:05:29,780 --> 01:05:35,220
your name or something, you'll have to message us directly on Patreon and let us know.

1278
01:05:35,220 --> 01:05:36,220
Do it.

1279
01:05:36,220 --> 01:05:42,460
If you can't support us monetarily, no worries because the easiest ways to support are absolutely

1280
01:05:42,460 --> 01:05:44,100
free.

1281
01:05:44,100 --> 01:05:48,140
Tell everyone and anyone you come into contact with about us.

1282
01:05:48,140 --> 01:05:52,500
Tell your dog walker about us because they need a podcast to listen to while they're

1283
01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:53,900
walking your dog.

1284
01:05:53,900 --> 01:05:55,420
Or your barista.

1285
01:05:55,420 --> 01:05:56,420
Yeah.

1286
01:05:56,420 --> 01:05:57,900
Or bartender.

1287
01:05:57,900 --> 01:06:03,980
Or you can leave us a five star review on any platform where you're listening to us.

1288
01:06:03,980 --> 01:06:09,980
If you're not listening to us on Apple, that's fine, but go there and leave us one there

1289
01:06:09,980 --> 01:06:13,420
too because that's the big one.

1290
01:06:13,420 --> 01:06:14,740
That's the big boy.

1291
01:06:14,740 --> 01:06:16,740
Just sprinkle those stars all around town.

1292
01:06:16,740 --> 01:06:17,740
You know what I mean?

1293
01:06:17,740 --> 01:06:19,740
Yes.

1294
01:06:19,740 --> 01:06:23,700
If you...

1295
01:06:23,700 --> 01:06:28,940
If you have any true crime paranormal or witchy stories to submit for a listener appreciation

1296
01:06:28,940 --> 01:06:38,700
episodes called the creepy people chronicles, please email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com

1297
01:06:38,700 --> 01:06:40,540
or you can also use...

1298
01:06:40,540 --> 01:06:46,380
We have a handy, dandy little Google contact form you can fill out and tell us your story.

1299
01:06:46,380 --> 01:06:49,540
And a link to that would be in the episode description.

1300
01:06:49,540 --> 01:06:55,060
You're always welcome to remain anonymous if you write in with a story and remember your

1301
01:06:55,060 --> 01:07:02,300
stories do not have to be coming from the Pacific Northwest specifically if you want to share.

1302
01:07:02,300 --> 01:07:09,700
If there is a story from somewhere in Europe or Asia or Africa, just naming the continents

1303
01:07:09,700 --> 01:07:10,700
now.

1304
01:07:10,700 --> 01:07:13,180
Or Russia?

1305
01:07:13,180 --> 01:07:17,740
I'm kidding because way back in the day I was confused about Russia and Asia, okay?

1306
01:07:17,740 --> 01:07:25,020
Follow us on all of the socials if you don't want to miss out on photos of our tarot cards

1307
01:07:25,020 --> 01:07:29,740
or beautiful alter setups which today there is a lot of fire next to me.

1308
01:07:29,740 --> 01:07:31,740
There is a lot of pyro techniques.

1309
01:07:31,740 --> 01:07:32,740
Yes.

1310
01:07:32,740 --> 01:07:34,060
Katelyn went a little crazy.

1311
01:07:34,060 --> 01:07:37,800
And she also put all the fire on her side now and it had to convince her to put one little

1312
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:39,500
candle on my side.

1313
01:07:39,500 --> 01:07:42,500
No, I just thought was how I arranged it.

1314
01:07:42,500 --> 01:07:45,220
It wasn't to keep the fire away from you.

1315
01:07:45,220 --> 01:07:47,220
It all looks like it.

1316
01:07:47,220 --> 01:07:51,340
I would think you would thank me, but whatever dude.

1317
01:07:51,340 --> 01:07:57,420
And a lot of backstage shenanigans like arguing over fire.

1318
01:07:57,420 --> 01:08:02,940
You can find our website or our link tree in the description of this episode to check out

1319
01:08:02,940 --> 01:08:05,540
all of the fun that we have to offer.

1320
01:08:05,540 --> 01:08:10,380
And if you get confused and you go to the link tree when you really wanted the website,

1321
01:08:10,380 --> 01:08:14,380
you can still go to the website directly from the link tree.

1322
01:08:14,380 --> 01:08:16,380
There are so many links on the link tree.

1323
01:08:16,380 --> 01:08:19,500
There is links to the links.

1324
01:08:19,500 --> 01:08:22,500
Have a creepy last day.

1325
01:08:22,500 --> 01:08:24,940
See you next Tuesday.

1326
01:08:24,940 --> 01:08:28,300
Part two, Tuesday.

1327
01:08:28,300 --> 01:08:29,800
Do do do.

1328
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:30,800
[J Especially to the audience.

1329
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:31,800
That's it!]

1330
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:32,800
[A Mossab���bub crunch]

1331
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:34,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1332
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:39,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1333
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:41,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1334
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:44,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1335
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1336
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:49,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1337
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1338
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:55,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1339
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:57,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1340
01:08:57,800 --> 01:08:59,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1341
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:01,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1342
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:03,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1343
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:05,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1344
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:07,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1345
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:09,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1346
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:11,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1347
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:13,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1348
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:15,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1349
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:17,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1350
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:19,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1351
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:21,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1352
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:23,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1353
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:25,800
[A nice andgovic song]

1354
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,920
You probably already know where Birdie ambassadors.

1355
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:34,300
We wanted to take a quick moment to tell you a little bit more about this awesome product.

1356
01:09:34,300 --> 01:09:38,480
Birdie is the modern personal safety alarm made for women by women.

1357
01:09:38,480 --> 01:09:43,720
In a situation where you feel threatened or unsafe, you can simply activate Birdie's

1358
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,760
loud siren and flashing light to create a diversion!

1359
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:53,560
Birdie is perfect to carry anytime because the device is lightweight and comes in a variety

1360
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:54,560
of colors.

1361
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:55,900
So important.

1362
01:09:55,900 --> 01:10:02,700
Use our Ambassador link and coupon code, PNW, Haunts and Homicides, to receive 10% off

1363
01:10:02,700 --> 01:10:04,200
your purchase.

1364
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:09,140
Like our social media handles, the coupon code is all spelled out no special characters.

1365
01:10:09,140 --> 01:10:14,120
You can find the link and promo code in our show notes or PNW, Haunts and Homicides link

1366
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:15,120
tree.

1367
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:16,460
Have a safe stay!

1368
01:10:16,460 --> 01:10:17,600
(soft music)

1369
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:20,200
(bright music)