March 19, 2026

Not an Accident: The Cheryl Keeton Murder

Not an Accident: The Cheryl Keeton Murder
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On a dark September night in 1986, a van sat abandoned on the Sunset Highway outside Portland—with the engine running.  Upon closer inspection there was a purse on the gas pedal, and blood everywhere.

What first appeared to be a tragic accident quickly unraveled into something far more disturbing.

Cheryl Keeton was a successful attorney, a mother of three, and a woman in the middle of a bitter divorce. As investigators dug deeper, they uncovered a story of control, fear, and a staged accident that quickly began to fall apart —revealing a murder.

In this episode, we examine the evidence, the timeline, and the case that would take nearly a decade to bring to justice.

Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Spreaker, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts.

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Stranger still was the fact that the engine was still

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on and the vehicle was still in gear. There was

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no one in the driver's seat, but the vehicle itself

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was pressing up against the median. The insistent gas pedal

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held down by a purse. So somebody's purse is on

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top of the gas pedal.

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It reminds me of like movies when they put the

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dead body in the car and like put a rock

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on the gas pedal, it goes off a cliff or something.

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You know, it's interesting.

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You should say that because the similarities are very eerie.

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Hi Cassie, Hi Caitlin, Hi creepy people. Hello, Hello, this

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is PNW Hanson Homicides, where we shed about true crime,

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the paranormal, and all things spooky in the Pacific Northwest

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or the PNW. If you're nice, nicety, if you're nasty.

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We also do a Tiara reading at the end of

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every episode for a little bit of deeper insight into

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our topic.

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Can we skip to that right? Yeah? Go too? I know,

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all right, I'm ready, I'm in my blanky, let's go.

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I might fall asleep, We'll see.

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All right, Well, I mean it's hardly a lullaby but

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you know, lots of people fall asleep listening to true crime.

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That's true myself included. Yeah, keep your eyes on my eyes.

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Late on the evening of September twenty first, nineteen eighty six,

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Randall Blyton was traveling down Sunset Highway just outside Portland

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when he noticed something strange.

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I was trying to think of like strange things you

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could see in Portland, and just like so many things

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came to mind.

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Yeah, I you know, part of me is did to

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have you guess, but I'm gonna tell you right now,

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and I just don't think that you could. I don't

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think this would come up. It was a van that

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was sat stopped in the left lane of the highway.

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I mean strange, but not like unheard of, right, Yeah,

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I don't know.

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The way that it was described in so much of

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the source material was just so eerie. But at first

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glance it looked like a routine accident scene. So Randall's

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thinking maybe the driver had just lost control or even

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pulled over after like some sort of a mechanical failure

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or you know, some other type of car trouble. But

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something inside the vehicle caught his attention. What appeared to

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be a car seat. A father himself, he immediately instinctively

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began searching the car, fearing grievous injury.

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For a child.

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What would obviously be a pretty precarious situation at this

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point in the evening, because it was around eight thirty

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in September, It's going to be very dark, so visibility

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was not great, and his number one concern was that

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this was going to cause like a major pile.

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Up on the highway.

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Yeah, it was already causing like a pretty significant backup

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on the highway, but he was just worried that there

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would be like a larger collision. Basically, he would discover,

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to his uneasy relief, that there was no infant. The

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car seat was eerily and yet blessedly empty. I feel like,

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especially and you know, I can't speak to this myself,

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but I feel like as a parent in particular, there

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must just sort of be this feeling of like, oh,

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I'm so glad there's not a baby in there, but

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there is a car seat, and the fact that it's

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empty just you know, that would.

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Freak you out, Like where is it right?

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Yeah, Like it feels like there should be a baby

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or a toddler in the seat and just makes you

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uncomfortable that it's empty. He described kind of searching around

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the interior of the vehicle. It's pretty dark, but he

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wanted to make sure that there's not a baby that's

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like fallen onto the floor or somewhere else in the vehicle,

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so he did his due diligence there. Oh, I know,

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very very sweet man.

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I'm always worried because I have a car seat in

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my car for when I now but yeah, obviously I

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don't have the kid all the time, but the car

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seats in my car.

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So I'm like, what if I get into an accident

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and like something and someone thinks, yeah, they're going to

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think that.

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They're going to be searching for the kid. So I'm like,

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should I put like an unoccupied sign on it?

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When he's not Honestly like, that's maybe not a bad idea,

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Like that could be helpful to first responders. I hadn't

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thought of that. But strangers still was the fact that

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the engine was still on and the vehicle was still

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in gear. There was no one in the driver's seat,

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but the vehicle itself was pressing up against the median.

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The insistent gas pedal held down by a purse. So

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somebody's purse is on top of the gas pedal. That's

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so odd. Yes, yeah, it reminds me of like movies

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when they put the dead body in the car and

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like put a rock on the gas pedal, it goes

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off a cliff or something.

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You know, it's interesting you should say that because the

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similarities are very eerie. Though it was quite dark already,

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he quickly became aware of a copious amount of blood

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in the vehicle. So again he had been kind of

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on almost like his hands and knees searching around the

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interior of this vehicle because he was concerned there might

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be an infant that had become loosed.

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From the seat.

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I just, oh my gosh, it just like the idea

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of then realizing that your hands.

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Were covered in blood just keeps getting worse.

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Yeah, no, and it doesn't. It just doesn't really get

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a whole lot better. He would maneuver the vehicle off

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the highway and onto the shoulder of nearby seventy ninth,

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a safer position to explore the vehicle more fully and

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see if the person seemingly unconscious in the passenger seat

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might need assistance or medical treatment. He tried questioning the passenger,

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but they remained unresponsive. He believed the passenger was likely

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a woman, but their face was badly and very dramatically

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wounded to the point of unrecognizability. Shit, he said, if

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I had known this woman personally, and at that point

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he's just assuming it's a woman truthfully, based on like

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and wait and the shoes that they were wearing. He said,

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if I'd known her personally, I would not have recognized her.

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Ah, that is so scary to see someone like that

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mm hm.

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After engaging the emergency flashers and lighting flares, he went

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to a nearby home and instructed the woman that answered

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the door to call for help for a bad accident,

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stating that he was returning to the scene. So the

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person that calls nine one one is under the impression

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that this is a very bad vehicular accident because so

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far as so far as our good samaritan knows at

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this point, that's what he's encountering. Perhaps this description was

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why when officers arrived they initially treated the scene as

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a traffic accident, because of course they're getting their information

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from dispatch until they get on the scene, and that's

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the information the dispatch would have had to that point,

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but even in the darkness that had descended on the

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highway that fall evening, it didn't take long to realize

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that it was more likely something far more disturbing that

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had occurred. Something about the scene felt wrong almost immediately.

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Traffic collisions, leaf behind patterns, skid marks, vehicle damage, debris,

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all things that investigators can read like a story. In

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this case, the evidence did not match the story of

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a typical crash. Damage to the vehicle itself was relatively limited.

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Two things stuck out nearly right away. For one, the

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positioning of the vehicle raised questions because it's literally stopped

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bumping up against the median in the left lane, so

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it was like pretty much diagonal, like driving itself or

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attempting to desperately drive itself into the median.

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This is why you don't let purses drive, just saying well, yeah, yeah,

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be careful, secure all of your belongings before.

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Driving the vehicle, for sure. Secondly, the passenger's injuries did

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not seem to align with what investigators would expect from

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the type of vehicular crash suggested by the scene that

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appeared suspicious at best or worse. They quietly pondered, perhaps

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even staged. I think they immediately jumped to your theory

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of like this is like when you kill somebody and

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crash the car off the side of a cliff with

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a brick on the gas pedal.

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Yeah, it's like something out of a movie. Honestly. Yeah,

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her face was so badly beaten, but like the wreck

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wasn't that bad.

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This person at least one of their eyes was like bulging,

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and like that portion of like their rbidal socket was

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just like so bruised and inflamed, and it had basically

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like the size of it was just cartoonish.

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Like man like a softball.

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So I don't know how you do that in a

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car accident where the car sustains almost no damage. I

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guess maybe it's not impossible, but it feels implausible.

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I don't know.

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As medical examiners and detectives examined the evidence more closely,

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the conclusion became unavoidable. The passenger had indeed been brutally murdered.

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But on that night in nineteen eighty six, investigators didn't

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yet know the story behind the woman found in that

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Toyota van. Her name was Cheryl Keaton. She was a

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thirty six year old Portland attorney. Investigators desperately wanted to

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understand what happened to Cheryl Keaton, to understand how the

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life of a happy, success full working mother of three

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had seemingly unraveled into something terrible and dark. Once the

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death was determined to homicide, detectives began examining every aspect

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of Cheryl's life, where she had been that day, who

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she had spoken with, and who might have had reason

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to harm her. Cheryl Keaton had built what many would

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consider a very successful life. Intelligent, ambitious, and determined. She

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had pursued a career in law and became a practicing

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attorney in Portland after attending law school in Seattle. In

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addition to her career, she had also welcomed three sons,

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who were the center of her life. But while Cheryl

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was building a career in raising a family, her marriage

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to Bradley Morris Cunningham was deteriorating. At first, brad Cunningham

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could appear charming and personable. As time passed, tensions between

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the two escalated. Financial pressures, personality conflicts, and issues of

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control began to strain the relationship. Eventually, the marriage reached

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a breaking point, and the couple began divorce proceedings. By

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nineteen ninety six, the divorce had become deeply contentious, particularly

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because of the custody battle over their three children.

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Yeah, I could see that.

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The thing about this case is that, unfortunately, there are

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so many ways that it mimics or like the details

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align with other stories that we've talked about in a

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way it's like none, no, two stories are exactly alike.

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But after a while you kind of start to see

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where it's like there's also at the same time, these

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scenarios are just they're never really all that unique either.

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It's like there's such a playbook of you.

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Know how personal inflict and you know how some of

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these things play out, and it's just it's heartbreaking.

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It's heartbreaking to see like the same patterns, especially when

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you mentioned like a man who is controlling like that, right,

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it's not going to go well him right, getting things

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taken from him.

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No, that's exactly exactly what it is. And the scary

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thing for me, like when it really like starts to

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just make my skin crawl is when.

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There are kids involved, because it's.

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Another layer of you know, a relationship that maybe has

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really turned sour if, if you know, maybe not necessarily abusive,

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although in this case it certainly was. It just adds

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such a layer of complication and vulnerability for the person

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who is trying desperately to like get out of the

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clutches of this horrific person. Friends later said Cheryl had

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begun worrying about what her estranged husband might do as

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the legal fight intensified. Cheryl, herself and those around her

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had long feared that conflict would end in tragedy. Arguments

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had become more frequent, and the custody battle had intensified

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emotions on both sides. The ongoing divorce immediately drew investigator's attention.

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They began examining Cheryl's relationship with Brad Cunningham more closely

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due to the violent nature of the death. And this

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is something I.

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Have never heard of.

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Like, they know that she has died, and I think

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at this point they very very strongly suspect that she

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was murdered. But keep in mind, like they have not

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had time to process like a full autopsy, so it

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hasn't officially been determined to homicide yet. So I have

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never heard of this before. Four officers had been sent

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to her estranged husband's home to deliver.

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00:14:58.639 --> 00:14:59.679
The death notification.

236
00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:03.159
And I realized that if they think there's a you know,

237
00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:09.200
perhaps a potential or a propensity for, you know, there

238
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.039
to be some sort of conflict or especially if there's

239
00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:16.080
you know, the opportunity for there to be violence, that

240
00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:18.720
they're going to do everything they can to not only

241
00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:23.679
protect themselves, but they're headed into just for context, into

242
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:29.840
an apartment building in Portland, and they have to think

243
00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:33.279
about how, you know, they might need to maintain the

244
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:38.519
safety of literally like his neighbors if something goes down.

245
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.120
But I have never ever heard of a case.

246
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:46.320
Where they send four four officers for a death notification.

247
00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:49.799
Wow, maybe they're like thinking of the kids too, which

248
00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.720
is good. Yeah, I don't know if that unless they

249
00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:56.799
knew where they were at that point or I'm not sure.

250
00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.759
I'm not sure that they I think probably them was

251
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:04.200
that the children were likely with their father, as he

252
00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.720
you know, presumably would be the custodial parent in that

253
00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.039
moment if they're not with Cheryl. But I think it

254
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:16.120
it just says a lot that this very slight. I mean,

255
00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.960
she was down to like one hundred pounds. She was

256
00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:23.639
very very fearful. At this point, she had dropped more weight,

257
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:26.480
so she was down to like one hundred pounds. She

258
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:30.960
was a very like everything that I encountered said she

259
00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:33.879
was a very slight woman, very like petite, and she

260
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:38.120
had dropped down to one hundred pounds because this whole

261
00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:41.240
situation with their divorce, the custody battle, how fearful she

262
00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:46.919
was of him, Like she just obviously was struggling. Wow

263
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.679
in a very serious way, Like people were saying, like,

264
00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:53.799
my god, she looks like gaunt. Like the part that

265
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.200
really got me about this was like to think about

266
00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.600
this like tiny woman who actually like she has this

267
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:03.679
like you know, very high power career and probably.

268
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:06.759
You know, can like kind of command.

269
00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:10.079
Respect, you know it like in a courtroom type setting,

270
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.640
in a legal setting. But to think that like that

271
00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:18.079
is like the person that's facing up against this man

272
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:20.440
that the police feel like they need to send for

273
00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:27.559
adult grown ass man man says to go you know,

274
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:30.680
like they're not even arresting him.

275
00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:32.440
It's such a trope.

276
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:34.880
But it's like the husband did it, and they're like, well,

277
00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:37.119
we're going to go talk to the husband, So I

278
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:41.160
guess bring everybody like that just blew my mind. They

279
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:46.480
recalled him being remarkably unemotional, barely reacting in fact, other

280
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:50.240
than to suggest in a lone outburst that was it

281
00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:52.720
perhaps a traffic accident that led to her death?

282
00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:59.319
Come on, man, way to like just give yourself away

283
00:17:59.480 --> 00:17:59.920
for real?

284
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.960
Yeah, did it by chance look like a poorly staged

285
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:10.880
car accident. Still, in this initial conversation, they tried not

286
00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.839
to read too much into his lack of outward reaction,

287
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.559
because everybody reacts to these situations differently, and obviously they're

288
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:22.640
actively going through a divorce, they are in a custody battle.

289
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.759
You know, they were not on good terms, so perhaps

290
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.559
even more so than you know, even a situation where

291
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.559
you know it's a loved one that has passed away,

292
00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:35.480
it's like this is somebody that like currently he has

293
00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.960
a very complicated relationship with. So they're trying not to

294
00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:41.720
read too much into the fact that he's not getting

295
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:45.359
all emotional. But as we know, people may react in

296
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:49.880
myriad ways to a sudden death, but he didn't seem

297
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:54.839
even remotely surprised. That's the part that gets me, Like,

298
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:57.240
you don't have to be emotional, but the fact that

299
00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:59.599
it doesn't, like you don't have any sort of a

300
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.039
oh almost like he already knew.

301
00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.160
Weird that she was deceased and somehow new it was

302
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.519
car related. Right. Yeah.

303
00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:12.039
I just think it's so funny because obviously there are

304
00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.880
people that can get away with certain things to varying degrees.

305
00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:19.519
But and I love the term just because, on the

306
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:24.519
one hand, it kind of sounds so gross. But this

307
00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:29.079
is what Chris has explained to me in interviewing.

308
00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:34.519
They call it behavioral leakage. That makes sense.

309
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.799
Yes, So a lot of it is like stuff like

310
00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:42.039
this is behavioral leakage. That's not like necessarily like on

311
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.119
a physiological level.

312
00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:45.599
But there are.

313
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.920
Things that you might do that you don't even realize

314
00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.359
you're doing, like tapping on a table or like you know,

315
00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.480
you're bouncing your leg underneath the table or.

316
00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.079
Whatever it is. But I'm like, this is just so

317
00:19:58.440 --> 00:19:59.680
that's the word for it.

318
00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:05.119
I feel as detectives began piecing together the timeline of

319
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:12.000
Cheryl's final hours, suspicion increasingly focused on her ex husband

320
00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.240
or soon to be ex husband, I should say, her

321
00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.960
current husband. I'll give you guys a moment, just let

322
00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.039
the shock, let you absorb, you know.

323
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:25.839
I think we're as much as shocked as he was

324
00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:27.599
that he when he found out his wife.

325
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:30.559
Died, right, Yeah, I think we are having a similar

326
00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:31.720
emotional response.

327
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.240
Yeah, but suspicion alone was not enough.

328
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:39.279
Investigators would need evidence strong enough to convince a jury

329
00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:44.039
beyond a reasonable doubt. What I think is really interesting here,

330
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.400
and I don't talk about her much, even though there's

331
00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.319
actually a good amount of information that I was able

332
00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:54.680
to find about her, kind of her thoughts and feelings

333
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:59.319
at the time, sort of as these events were playing out.

334
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:04.599
But Brad Cunningham had a girlfriend. I think some sources

335
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:06.119
describe her as fiance.

336
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:10.000
I don't know. It really doesn't even matter. I believe

337
00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:11.319
she was an.

338
00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.599
Er doctor, so like he clearly likes to surround himself

339
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:21.160
with these very successful women. And the one time that

340
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:23.759
officially in my note she's going to come up is

341
00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:29.759
a little bit later. But she really never suspected anything.

342
00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:33.920
She really believed him in this case, and she really

343
00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:37.559
loved his children, and she really believed that he wanted

344
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:40.680
the best for them. To be fair, there's a lot

345
00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:45.799
of information that she wasn't privy to. Necessarily, she's only

346
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.279
so close to this whole situation.

347
00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:51.440
I really felt bad for her actually, because.

348
00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:56.640
She seemed like a very compassionate and smart, just I mean,

349
00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:59.160
a really nice woman, And I was just like, fuck,

350
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:02.279
how did what do these fuckers find find us?

351
00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:02.759
Ladies?

352
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.279
I mean, I mean, you.

353
00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:09.599
Can be strong and and successful but still have like

354
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:13.240
that little bit of weakness maybe that they can sniff

355
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:15.960
out and just keep poking at. Yeah.

356
00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:18.599
And you know the other thing is that a lot

357
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.359
of times the archetype of what you know what, Brad

358
00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:27.720
is they wait until they got your ass tramped, and

359
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.480
that's when you see who they really are. As detectives

360
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:35.720
continued examining Cheryl's life, they began learning more about her

361
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:42.920
estranged husband, Bradley Morris Cunningham Ask Huntingham, Cuntingham.

362
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:49.079
Oh, I love that, thank you, Oh love that for us. Okay.

363
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:54.039
When investigators look into a homicide involving intimate partners, one

364
00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:56.599
of the first things they study is the history of

365
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:01.839
the relationship. They look for patterns, financial speeds, escalating arguments,

366
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:07.359
custody conflicts, or controlling behavior, anything that might help explain motive.

367
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:12.960
In Chryl Keaton's case, the deeper detectives dug into the

368
00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:15.319
couple's past, the more complicated.

369
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:17.119
That picture became.

370
00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:20.680
Not because it was unclear that Brad was a piece

371
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.880
of shit just so that everybody's on the same page.

372
00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:28.240
It's just because of the particular type of shit that

373
00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:32.799
he is. His particular brand of pos can make things

374
00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:37.200
a little confusing at times. Part of that complexity came

375
00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.640
from Brad himself. Years after the trial, he would write

376
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:46.000
extensively about his life and his version of events, attempting

377
00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.839
to challenge the narrative that it developed around the case,

378
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.880
particularly the one presented in the best selling true crime

379
00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:58.319
book Dead by Sunset by Anne Rule. Ooh and rue,

380
00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:09.240
she rules, She rules, and Brad rules. Yeah really, I

381
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:13.079
actually I wasn't gonna pay for it, because that's just

382
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:15.799
not how I rolled. But I was able to access

383
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:25.240
a pretty sizable excerpt from his book, and Rule deconstructed whatever.

384
00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.400
In his own writing, he portrays himself as a highly

385
00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:35.880
successful businessman and ambitious entrepreneur moving through the booming real

386
00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:40.000
estate markets of the Pacific Northwest during the nineteen seventies

387
00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:45.759
and eighties. Was he you know, I don't care enough.

388
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:49.839
I don't care enough. Some of the stuff that he says,

389
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:55.160
it makes no goddamn sense. The figures actively make no

390
00:24:55.319 --> 00:25:00.160
fucking sense. Like he talked about having real estate holding

391
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.640
and the number of zeros he assigned. I'm like, this

392
00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:07.599
was the eighties. You're telling me you had nearly a

393
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:12.640
billion dollars in real estate holdings in the nineteen eighties.

394
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:15.599
I don't know what's normal, but I'm.

395
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:19.000
Not saying it's impossible. I just don't fucking believe you,

396
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:23.680
and I'm about to tell you why. According to Cunningham's account,

397
00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:25.799
I almost said, Cuntingham, I.

398
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:26.799
Wish you would have.

399
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:34.599
According to Cunningham's account, his story begins in Buryan, Washington,

400
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:37.960
a small community just south of Seattle, where he was

401
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.319
born in October of nineteen forty eight.

402
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:42.559
He describes himself as.

403
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:47.039
An ambitious young man, drawn early toward business and finance.

404
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:51.759
He attended the University of Washington, where he studied business

405
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:58.279
administration and played on the university's varsity football team. Okay,

406
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:02.440
so I do also, uh, I believe he does actually

407
00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:07.759
have a business degree from you dub. It's funny because

408
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:12.559
he does intersperse so many like I shouldn't say so many.

409
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:16.880
There are certain facts that he intersperses with, just like

410
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:21.559
what if on the surface, I want to dismiss a

411
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:24.240
lot of things as just being lies. But then I

412
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:26.440
was like, and you'll see, I'm about to tell you

413
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:31.079
about my very exciting experiment trying to prove him wrong

414
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:37.559
on something. And I guess technically I can't definitively you'll see,

415
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.000
But what the fuck. It's just so annoying. I fucking

416
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:45.440
hate people that just lie about shit, Like you told

417
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:49.000
someone else that I also know something completely different. Did

418
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:52.400
you think we were never going to talk about this? Like, yeah,

419
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:55.039
it's such it's so obvious that you lied to one

420
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:55.400
of us.

421
00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:57.960
Oh my god, I just want to rip his face off.

422
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:01.759
I think people just lie and like don't even they

423
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:05.119
just don't even think about it. Yeah, they're just so confident,

424
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:10.279
like like, don't have another thought in their brain besides

425
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:14.079
what they're saying at the moment. It's fucking maddening. I can't.

426
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:15.880
I just I simply can't.

427
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:20.000
One moment he highlights in his autobiography involves a game

428
00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:24.160
in which he claims to have tackled O. J. Simpson Okay,

429
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:28.240
who at the time was already becoming one of the

430
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:30.880
most famous running backs in college football.

431
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:32.599
Yeah. I tackled that guy.

432
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:37.599
Yeah, Okay, So here's the thing, though, Okay, Brad frames

433
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.640
the moment as a highlight of his athletic career in

434
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:44.640
college and part of the early promise he believed defined

435
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:51.720
his life. You DUB and USC did play in the era, okay, okay,

436
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.920
roughly nineteen sixty seven nineteen sixty eight, and O. J.

437
00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:59.640
Simpson won the Heisman in nineteen sixty eight while playing

438
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:06.000
for you, So if not only possible, it's very probable

439
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:13.039
that someone on the UDUB football team tackled Oj. Interestingly, though,

440
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:18.240
for the years nineteen sixty six to nineteen seventy, Brad's

441
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:24.519
name does not appear in UW's well documented football rosters. Weird,

442
00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:30.000
I know, I know so much about college football rosters.

443
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:34.480
Now, I mean, that's the string I wanted you to pull.

444
00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:39.119
My Honestly, I didn't see this playing out this way,

445
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:42.240
but now I have to tell you, okay, and it's

446
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:45.119
in my notes. So I took the time you could

447
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:45.759
take the time.

448
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.119
That is kind of funny, though.

449
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.920
I searched beyond the suggested years of nineteen sixty seven

450
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.759
and nineteen sixty eight, because why not, right, maybe he's

451
00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.160
remembering that piece wrong, like maybe it was nineteen sixty nine.

452
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.119
But like I said, no, dice, maybe he was a

453
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:08.119
JV player. I had a thought because I was like, right, JV,

454
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.279
that's junior varsity. Maybe he said varsity but he was

455
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:16.480
really JV. He's trying to pump himself up. But I

456
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:20.400
learned that the University of Washington, as a Division One team,

457
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:25.480
does not maintain a separate junior varsity or JV football

458
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:32.119
team roster, as is standard for most major college football programs. Instead,

459
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.759
they use a single, comprehensive roster, including freshmen, red shirts,

460
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:41.839
and developmental players. However, in the late nineteen sixties, the

461
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:47.400
University of Washington still fielded a separate freshman team, often

462
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:53.839
called the Husky Pups. Oh C online digital records for

463
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:57.160
the Husky Pups are scarce compared to the main roster.

464
00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:00.160
But honestly, I think it's fair to say the that

465
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:04.480
is just a motherfucking liar. Yeah, he doesn't appear on

466
00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:04.960
the roster.

467
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:07.519
He could have been a Husky Pop. Is that what

468
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:13.319
you're saying could have been? Seems unlikely, but definitely not farsay. Yeah.

469
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:16.400
Also, I feel like it would be kind of funny

470
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:20.440
if somehow in my research I had come across that like, oh,

471
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:27.519
he did for sure tackle OJ on the field when

472
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:32.720
he was at you dub, he just wasn't doing it

473
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.720
in his capacity as a football player, Like he just

474
00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:40.039
stormed the field like those people that go running around new.

475
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:45.839
Was he the Was he a mascot? Maybe?

476
00:30:46.599 --> 00:30:50.240
I you know, I didn't find anything to support that,

477
00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:51.640
but what are you gonna do?

478
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:55.240
I was also thinking like if you had said he

479
00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:59.279
was on the roster, like maybe someone else, Yeah, tackled

480
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:01.000
him and they did like the pile on and he

481
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:04.640
was like the last guy, Like, right, he just hopped on.

482
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:11.359
I caught him. Come, I caught him. Nailed it.

483
00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:17.119
He also claims that he was contacted by the Dallas Cowboys,

484
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:20.599
who allegedly offered him a position on their special teams

485
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:21.759
in nineteen seventy.

486
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:23.799
On their special teams.

487
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:29.759
Yeah, special teams is like you're not actually like you're

488
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:30.759
not going.

489
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:31.519
To the super Bowl.

490
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:35.759
Typically, I don't know a lot about football, and I

491
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:40.839
exhausted my ability to learn more about football with that

492
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:44.119
last passage. So, uh, that's as far as we're going

493
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:44.720
to go on that.

494
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:45.640
But okay.

495
00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:51.000
According to Brad, the offer included an annual salary of

496
00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:55.799
around fifty thousand dollars, which was actually a considerable income

497
00:31:55.880 --> 00:32:00.200
at the time. Presumably he declined the opportunity claim. I mean,

498
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:05.359
he was already earning comparable money working in property management

499
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:09.039
and believed his future in business would ultimately be more

500
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:12.359
lucrative than one in the arena of.

501
00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:15.119
Athletics because he didn't actually play football.

502
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.839
I mean, yeah, I feel like that's a fair I

503
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.920
love that you picked up on that, but also I

504
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:26.119
feel like for most people that's true. Even if you

505
00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:29.799
do get drafted a lot of times, it's like, you know,

506
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:34.640
the smartest guys out there are making choices that are

507
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.079
going to set them up for life after football, you know,

508
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:43.400
after professional sports, whatever it is. He didn't even want

509
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:48.400
to get started in professional sports. He's like Nay, and

510
00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:51.440
the Dallas Cowboys back then, like you want to I

511
00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:53.079
feel like, oh, that was primo.

512
00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:56.279
Yeah. I mean, I don't know, but I'm just going

513
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.480
by what you're saying.

514
00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:00.839
The Dallas Cowboys, I don't think in that era were like, oh,

515
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:03.000
they went to the Super Bowl like every year or

516
00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:03.720
something like that.

517
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.599
The height of their success as.

518
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:10.119
A team, you know, in the last fifty years, to

519
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.279
my knowledge, was in the mid to late seventies. So

520
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.240
but if you had come on, you know, with them

521
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:20.799
as nineteen seventy is dawning, like I don't know, but

522
00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:23.359
either way it would have been special teams and you're

523
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:26.359
not going to the super Bowl anyways. I just love

524
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:31.079
that even his like made up, fabricated bullshit dreams and.

525
00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:33.720
Stuff are still like just a little bit shy of.

526
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:37.000
Like not only making sense, but like it's like, Okay,

527
00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:38.759
cool story, bro.

528
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:42.359
You know it's like believable because it's not too much.

529
00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:46.680
Yeah, it's still not believable though it's still not like

530
00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:50.000
it's really not. I don't know anything about football, and

531
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:54.240
like the context of already understanding that, like he kind

532
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:57.079
of seems like a liar. That was a help to

533
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.200
me because yeah, don't I don't understand the sportsing ball,

534
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:06.759
go sports, Yeah, go sports instead. Cunningham describes focusing his

535
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:11.039
career on real estate finance. He portrays himself as operating

536
00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:15.079
primarily as a mortgage broker and mortgage banker in the

537
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:20.480
Seattle and Bellevue areas, structuring loans and financing investment properties

538
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:24.159
during a period when the Pacific Northwest property market was

539
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:25.360
rapidly expanding.

540
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:27.360
So I don't know.

541
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.960
Maybe he did at some point have nearly a billion

542
00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:35.719
dollars in real estate holdings. Hould my hair back while

543
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.239
I vomit, Like I don't believe.

544
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:39.400
I just don't believe it.

545
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:44.880
In his own telling, those ventures were enormously successful. Of course,

546
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:48.840
Cunningham claims that over roughly twenty years, he helped finance

547
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:53.159
more than and here it is the nine hundred million

548
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:57.800
dollars in income properties across the Pacific Northwest and Houston.

549
00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:58.719
Area of Texas.

550
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:02.039
I guess technically he's not even saying that those are

551
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:05.960
his holdings, but just that he was involved in those dealings.

552
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:12.039
Either way, I just kind of am like I don't care, Brad,

553
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:13.239
like I don't care.

554
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:17.239
Also, there again, it's like he did nine hundred million,

555
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:19.639
not a billion, so like in his yeah, it's a

556
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:20.719
little more believable.

557
00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:26.199
Yeah, I'm just like, come on, Brad, if you're just

558
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:30.280
gonna so obviously lie about so many things, like at

559
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:32.480
least go big or go home, you know, Like I

560
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:34.079
feel like I could respect.

561
00:35:33.639 --> 00:35:34.719
That more in a way.

562
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:38.119
I don't know, he's just trash. It's I'm never gonna

563
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:39.199
like him.

564
00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:41.960
I really want to know, like what he would say

565
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:45.840
his dick size was, Oh boy, you know, it's funny

566
00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:49.480
you bring that up like one inch above average.

567
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.639
Yeah yeah, he would be like it's a solid five

568
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:59.719
point seventy five inches or some shit like, oh boy.

569
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:03.400
At one point, he says he and Cheryl held more

570
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:07.039
than a million dollars in certificates of deposit at First

571
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:12.639
Interstate Bank and Seattle. He further asserts that even excluding

572
00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:16.360
Cheryl's income as an attorney, the couple generated more than

573
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:19.119
a million dollars per year through a mix of cash

574
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:24.320
flow investments and equity holdings, which I don't know. In

575
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:28.840
nineteen eighties, I don't know. It just seems I don't know.

576
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.320
Maybe maybe I don't believe you. I don't trust you,

577
00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:36.719
and I don't like you. So whatever. These claims form

578
00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:40.559
a central part of the image Brad Cunningham constructs in

579
00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:44.400
his own writing that of a self made financial success

580
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:48.559
moving comfortably through the high energy real estate culture of

581
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:53.599
the Pacific Northwest during that era. After completing his undergraduate degree,

582
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:59.079
he also pursued graduate studies, enrolling in a master's program

583
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:04.400
in econo at Portland State University. So very loch Da

584
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.760
of him, and he really did those things I am

585
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.719
given to understand that he really did enroll in the

586
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:14.280
master's program at PSU. Yeah, all right, you know I

587
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.119
didn't call PSU. I don't know that they would even

588
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:18.760
be willing to verify that.

589
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:22.400
But give me the receipt, give me as transcripts.

590
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:27.760
But his personal life was just as complicated as his

591
00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:33.000
professional one. Before his relationship with Cheryl Keaton, Brad had

592
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.480
previously been married. His first marriage was to a woman

593
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:40.480
named Marilyn, which I think is a pseudonym used in

594
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:44.559
Anne Rule's book. Doesn't really matter. Whom he married while

595
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:48.880
still a junior at the University of Washington. The couple

596
00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:53.280
had two children together, a daughter and a son actually

597
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:58.760
named Brad Junior. Because of course, that marriage eventually ended,

598
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:04.039
and he would later enter into other relationships before eventually

599
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.920
meeting Cheryl. I guess I could have stopped reading it,

600
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.480
but I had to read this, So I'm going to.

601
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:12.679
Give you like the elevator pitch.

602
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:17.880
Version of it, because my god, this man is. I

603
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:22.440
cannot tell you how unhinged his book reads. Just the

604
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:25.559
section that I was able to access for free. It

605
00:38:25.639 --> 00:38:29.119
is truly spectacular.

606
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:29.800
In the worst way possible.

607
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:34.840
One of the most extensive portions of Cunningham's autobiography focuses

608
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:38.559
on a woman he identifies as Joan, whom he says

609
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:41.760
he dated for roughly four to five years. According to

610
00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:46.079
his autobiographical account in the ebook, he lived with Joan

611
00:38:46.519 --> 00:38:53.679
in the Beaux Arts Village, an affluent residential enclave in Bellevue, Washington.

612
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:58.000
She worked as a teacher at Ivanhoe Elementary School, teaching

613
00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:00.239
second and third grade students.

614
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:03.400
Which is why it feels a little.

615
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:09.119
Unsettling to read about how he describes her and how

616
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:13.800
much he describes so so much.

617
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:17.639
It is truly unseemly.

618
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:22.800
He devotes long passages to describing their life together, portraying

619
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:28.239
it as glamorous, socially adventurous, and at times openly hedonistic. Okay,

620
00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:32.039
so they like allegedly just went to a bunch of orgies,

621
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:38.800
organistic orange you glad I came. Oh okay, I know

622
00:39:38.840 --> 00:39:39.760
it works two ways.

623
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:41.199
I like it.

624
00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:46.480
He recounts frequent parties, travel and gatherings that he characterizes

625
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:52.960
as sexually permissive social environments, basically orgies and key parties,

626
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:57.400
which is super cool if that's a thing that you

627
00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:02.599
want to participate in, and that part's fine. What I

628
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:06.199
feel like as role Icky is that number one, he's

629
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.159
a liar, so I have to wonder how much of

630
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:11.760
it he's making up. And number two, I just don't

631
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:17.119
understand why when you are talking about deconstructing and Rule's

632
00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:20.360
book about the murder of your wife, that this features

633
00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:21.159
so prominently.

634
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:27.559
Yeah, that is weird. It is upsetting. It's literally and

635
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:29.000
maybe he's thinking.

636
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:32.199
Oh, it's it's my autobiography, So I have to tell

637
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:34.079
everything that happened in my life.

638
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:36.480
Everything that I wanted to happen in my life. To

639
00:40:36.519 --> 00:40:39.440
make it real, I have to write it down. Yeah.

640
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:42.800
Yeah, it could be some manifesting. Yeah, yeah, it could

641
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:48.760
be that. So the orgies and all of the details

642
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:54.199
which he specifically claims to mention only briefly and to

643
00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:58.159
not go into graphic detail, but which occupy a surprisingly

644
00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:02.480
large portion of his narrative. Those passages are revealing not

645
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:05.360
necessarily because of the events themselves, because I could give

646
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:08.519
a shit who or when or why or how many

647
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:12.719
people you fuck, but because of the way he chooses

648
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:17.679
to present them. His writing frequently lingers on physical descriptions

649
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:22.119
and lifestyle details, constructing a very particular image of himself

650
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:25.639
and the world he believed he inhabited. The amount of

651
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:30.119
time he spent talking about this woman's nipples.

652
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:33.679
Ungodly, truly truly, truly offensive.

653
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:36.639
Yeah, no, I mean the amount of time he spent

654
00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:40.920
describing her physical appearance overall, truly, just.

655
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:43.199
Like he does say all of.

656
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:45.360
These other things about her, like how she's like the

657
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:48.760
most intelligent and well traveled woman that he's ever been with.

658
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:54.039
And she was I guess, like fourteen years his senior,

659
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:58.480
so she was older than him, a very sophisticated lady, seemingly,

660
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:02.400
But my god, why do we need to know so much.

661
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.159
About her nipples?

662
00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:10.039
Apparently she was a dead ringer, a doppelganger for Alyssa

663
00:42:10.119 --> 00:42:12.719
Milano in The Charmed Days.

664
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:15.719
Of course she was. Yeah, oh boy.

665
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:22.320
He actually includes an illustrative image that I assume is

666
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.840
like a screenshot from porn or something to show you

667
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:29.360
what he's talking about with her nipples. I just because

668
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:33.599
the description of them isn't enough. Yeah, it's just too much.

669
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:37.400
I just I feel like the Lady Doth protests too much.

670
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.320
How much can you say about nipples? I thought this

671
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:44.079
was all about taking down and rule. The title of

672
00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:47.920
the book is Anne Rule Deconstructed. Do you think Anne

673
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:51.400
Rule spent this much time talking about this woman's nipples?

674
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:54.800
I can't imagine that she did, okay, because I feel

675
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:58.519
like you went on a really long time about the nibbles. Well,

676
00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:00.280
it made me so mad.

677
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:04.719
I was like, what the fuck is this guy talking about?

678
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:07.480
And he talks about he goes on and on about

679
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:10.920
the orgies in the like, and he specifically says how

680
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.320
he doesn't want to go into graphic detail and how

681
00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:16.400
he's not going to and and oh I didn't. I

682
00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:19.760
like really like I summarized it. I gave you the

683
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:22.039
cliff Notes version, and I was like, I feel like,

684
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:26.880
I feel like you've said so so much. It's just

685
00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:32.280
I can't believe that's possibly true, Like wow, Like what.

686
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:35.760
Why did I need to know any of this? How

687
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:36.559
is this helpful?

688
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:40.719
Context? Also for like the task at hand, which.

689
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:43.719
Is deconstructing and Rule.

690
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:50.719
But autobiographical accounts written by criminal defendants are always complicated sources.

691
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:55.519
They often reveal as much about how the author wishes

692
00:43:55.920 --> 00:44:00.840
to be perceived as they do about objective history facts.

693
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:05.000
I would argue more, maybe more, it reveals more about

694
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:07.280
him and what he wants people to think about. Him

695
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:12.199
than it does about objective historical facts. But that's just

696
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:14.199
maybe that's just me.

697
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:14.960
I don't know.

698
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:20.079
For investigators examining the murder of Cheryl Keaton, the question

699
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:24.599
was not how Brad Cunningham described himself in his own narrative,

700
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:28.519
because who gives a flying fuck. The question was whether

701
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:32.440
the evidence surrounding Cheryl's death would ultimately tell a very

702
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:38.360
different story, and spoiler alert, I feel like they have

703
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:43.440
very different stories. Once Cheryl's death was classified as a homicide,

704
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:49.239
detectives began reconstructing her final day. They interviewed co workers, friends,

705
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:53.360
and family members, reviewed phone calls and statements, and compared

706
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:58.440
those details against Brad Cunningham's account of his own activities

707
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:03.079
that night. Clear that Cheryl was fearful for her life

708
00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:07.840
and perhaps even her children's lives. Brad's own relatives told

709
00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:11.480
authorities that he hated women like in a very classic

710
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:16.920
in cell controlling asshole way. Detectives continued to look for

711
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:22.480
gaps in the timeline contradictions, the smallest of instances where

712
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:27.519
statements did not match what other witnesses had described. Cheryl's brother,

713
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:29.920
Jim Carr, had been living with her and the boys

714
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:32.960
for about three months prior to the murder, which had

715
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:35.920
alleviated some of the fear that she and her family

716
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:41.880
felt about what lengths Brad might go to. I will

717
00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:49.360
say that Jim, I can't imagine how guilty he must

718
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.679
feel for things that are absolutely outside of his control

719
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.079
and not his fault.

720
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:58.280
And I will also say that, as.

721
00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:02.079
Kind of one of the first people to be notified

722
00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:07.519
of her death, as he reached out to their family,

723
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:13.320
no one was surprised. And unfortunately, and I'll have to

724
00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:17.199
tie this in, but even prior to actually receiving the

725
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:22.639
death notification, because of the circumstances of that night, his

726
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:26.159
hackles were already up, as were those of some of

727
00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:30.039
the family that he immediately reached out to with concerns.

728
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:33.920
So the fact that like they were like, we knew

729
00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:38.239
this would happen, and to not have received confirmation, but

730
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:42.599
to just already know that your worst fears are playing out,

731
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:45.840
I can't fucking imagine it, because there's.

732
00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:48.960
Really like nothing you can do. There's nothing you could

733
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:52.320
have done. No, like you can't just like tie her

734
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.480
up and hold her hostage in your house, you know

735
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:54.920
what I mean?

736
00:46:55.039 --> 00:47:01.079
No, No, Teeter, she did nothing wrong. They did wrong, Like,

737
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:05.360
the only person that did something wrong is a spoiler alert,

738
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:09.400
it was Brad. The night she died, Cheryl had left

739
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:12.920
a note behind for her brother about meeting Brad to

740
00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:16.559
pick up the boys, because this was a Sunday and

741
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:19.920
Brad should have been returning the boys to her by

742
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:25.000
seven pm that evening, and she would get almost frantic

743
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:31.280
when they deviated from the custody arrangements. Well, yeah, Brad

744
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:34.719
supposedly had some car trouble that evening and the pickup

745
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:37.480
location that she described in the note was a gas

746
00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:41.000
station that her brother knew full well was not in

747
00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:43.840
operation at the time. It was basically it was abandoned.

748
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:47.920
I think it recently, Like the shop was closed, so

749
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.920
it seemed like an odd meeting spot, especially if you

750
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.079
just had car trouble. You'd think you would want to

751
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:58.559
go someplace where the business wasn't closed. He was like,

752
00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:00.800
it would make more sense if they went to like

753
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:05.679
a service station that was open, because maybe he needs

754
00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:09.960
something for the car. But that made him nervous immediately,

755
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:13.679
and he had actually reached out to their mother based

756
00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:18.039
on the note that Cheryl left about meeting Brad. She said,

757
00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:20.239
I told her do not do that do not go

758
00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:22.760
to meet him, and she said, I know she's dead,

759
00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:23.840
but like.

760
00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:27.280
The kids, I can understand like a mom doing whatever

761
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:29.760
they need to do because they're worried about their children.

762
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:31.880
Of course, I will meet you anywhere.

763
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:34.960
Give me back my babies. And it's a public place,

764
00:48:35.239 --> 00:48:37.119
you said, an abandoned please.

765
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:42.159
Yeah, it sounds like this service station had recently gone

766
00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:47.679
like out of business. So what a creepy place to

767
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:52.199
ask someone to meet you seriously, and her brother, like

768
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:55.960
I said, immediately, he was like that's not good. And

769
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:57.800
this poor guy, like what.

770
00:48:57.719 --> 00:48:59.400
Is he supposed to do? You know.

771
00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:03.559
The part that was like heartbreaking about this is on

772
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:08.679
this particular evening, like if her kids were home, he

773
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.639
very rarely like went out late at night. Keeping in

774
00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:16.360
mind that her vehicle was discovered on the side of

775
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:20.519
the highway around eight thirty pm, so not even that late,

776
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:24.000
even for a Sunday night. Eight thirty is not crazy

777
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:28.639
late in the evening. It was significantly later than the

778
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:32.480
agreed upon seven pm pickup time for them to change

779
00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:35.920
hands of you know, custody of the boys. But like,

780
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:38.360
it's not like he was out until midnight. And even

781
00:49:38.440 --> 00:49:41.159
if he was, like he's a young man, he should

782
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:45.400
be able to, you know, have a life, right, But

783
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:49.000
he had gone out with his girlfriend, and he was like,

784
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:53.400
the whole reason why I felt okay about doing that

785
00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:56.440
was because you know, I'd been staying there. She seemed

786
00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:58.840
like she was starting to feel more comfortable. She felt

787
00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:03.199
safer with me there with the boys, and I knew

788
00:50:03.199 --> 00:50:06.880
that it was Brad's time and they wouldn't be home

789
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:10.920
until later. So I went out that night thinking like,

790
00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:16.719
Brad has the boys, like she's fine when you know

791
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:20.400
they get handed back off, like no big deal. I

792
00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:23.360
think it made her more nervous to be alone in

793
00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:26.199
their home with the kids. There is the impression that

794
00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:28.840
I have because she was worried about her safety. But

795
00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:32.000
I feel like, as a mom, especially you know, someone

796
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:34.599
who has concerns about maybe even the safety of your

797
00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:37.719
own kids, like it's bad enough that something could happen

798
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:41.039
to you, but the idea that like something could happen

799
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:44.679
to you and your kids is just like a bridge

800
00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:48.719
too far. So he thought like this is a good time,

801
00:50:49.159 --> 00:50:52.719
you know, everything should be good. It's just made me

802
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:55.320
want to cry because I could think about like if

803
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:58.079
this were my brother, he would just literally probably never

804
00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:01.599
stop beating himself up over something like this, even though

805
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:06.480
like objectively, there's just nothing that he did wrong and

806
00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:08.719
the fault is completely someone else's.

807
00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:12.480
But it's like, because it's like literally insane for someone

808
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:16.039
to kill somebody else, Like it's not a normal thing.

809
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:19.039
As much as you might be like worried about them

810
00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:23.039
doing something or think right should or not be surprised afterwards,

811
00:51:23.079 --> 00:51:27.119
you're not like they're actually going to do that, because

812
00:51:27.159 --> 00:51:29.000
it's yeah crazy, I mean, you're at.

813
00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:32.440
Least hopeful that's never going to happen, And the fact

814
00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:36.960
that you know it did and the way that you

815
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:41.360
know it's happened is just it's awful. And he has

816
00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:43.920
no reason to feel bad. I just know that, Like

817
00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:48.800
survivor's guilt in these type of instances, it's like that's

818
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:52.039
so hard to overcome. Like I know why he would

819
00:51:52.039 --> 00:51:56.800
feel bad. I would have those same feelings. In the

820
00:51:56.920 --> 00:52:02.519
years after Cheryl's death, investigators continued gathering information, reviewing evidence,

821
00:52:02.599 --> 00:52:06.440
and revisiting the circumstances surrounding the night she was found

822
00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:10.760
dead in her van along the Sunset Highway. But while

823
00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:15.679
the criminal investigation moved slowly, another legal battle began to unfold.

824
00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:21.639
In nineteen ninety one, Cheryl's estate filed a civil wrongful

825
00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:26.519
death lawsuit against Brad Cunningham. Civil cases operate under a

826
00:52:26.599 --> 00:52:30.760
different legal standard than criminal trials. In a criminal case,

827
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:34.960
prosecutors must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I think

828
00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:38.559
we're all hopefully familiar with that principle at this point.

829
00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:41.960
That pesky little law I know.

830
00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:47.440
In civil court, however, jurors must decide whether a defendant

831
00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:53.519
is responsible based on a preponderance of the evidence, essentially

832
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:57.880
whether it is more likely than not that the defendant.

833
00:52:57.400 --> 00:53:02.239
Caused the death. It's like the person. Yes, it's like

834
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:05.199
a forty nine fifty one, like in the zoo thing

835
00:53:05.400 --> 00:53:08.559
what we talked about. I remember that, Nat, You've never

836
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:09.679
seen this before.

837
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:14.159
During the civil trial, jurors heard many of the same

838
00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:19.360
details investigators had been examining for years, the bitter divorce,

839
00:53:19.880 --> 00:53:24.000
the custody fight over the couple's children, the financial disputes,

840
00:53:24.039 --> 00:53:29.440
and the circumstances surrounding Cheryl's death. After hearing the evidence,

841
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:35.320
the civil jury reached a decisive conclusion. They found Brad

842
00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:40.880
Cunningham responsible for Cheryl Keaton's death and awarded Cheryl's estate,

843
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:48.320
a truly massive wrongful death verdict and award like a

844
00:53:48.519 --> 00:53:52.119
like a roll serious amount of moolah.

845
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:54.519
Was it nine hundred million dollars?

846
00:53:55.599 --> 00:54:00.880
It wasn't, but it wasn't the millions. Nice. They'll never

847
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:04.239
see a scent of it, as is often the case,

848
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:09.679
that's how this plays out, but we get something, I think,

849
00:54:09.800 --> 00:54:13.440
in a way even better. The decision was significant not

850
00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:17.280
only because of the financial judgment, which is kind of whatever,

851
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:19.880
You're never going to see that money, but because it

852
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:26.119
publicly established that a jury believed Brad Cunningham was responsible

853
00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:31.400
for Sheryl Keaton's killing. That verdict brought renewed attention to

854
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.880
the case and helped shift the momentum of the investigation

855
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:38.440
because they're like, oh shit, it's a different burden of

856
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:42.239
proof with the civil case, right, But if these people

857
00:54:42.280 --> 00:54:46.480
believe it, we just have to give them enough and

858
00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:51.079
then we can get a criminal prosecution case together and

859
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:52.360
a conviction on.

860
00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:56.880
An actual case, convict that cunting Ham.

861
00:54:57.360 --> 00:55:01.360
For years, the case had existed in frustrating gray area,

862
00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:05.800
strong suspicions but not yet enough evidence for prosecutors to

863
00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:11.519
move forward with criminal charges. The civil verdict helped change

864
00:55:11.559 --> 00:55:16.000
that investigators and prosecutors took another look at the evidence

865
00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:21.079
that had accumulated over the years. Eventually, they concluded that

866
00:55:21.159 --> 00:55:24.719
the case had reached a turning point. After nearly a

867
00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:29.920
decade of investigation, prosecutors believed they had finally assembled enough

868
00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:36.119
evidence to bring the case to a criminal trial. Nearly

869
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.679
a decade after Cheryl Keaton's death, the case finally reached

870
00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:45.599
the courtroom. Brad's girlfriend at the time, Fancy Pans doctor, who.

871
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:49.400
I truly do feel bad for, paid.

872
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:53.199
The retainer for not just his lawyer, but also as

873
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:57.159
separate attorney to represent the children, which was a major

874
00:55:57.239 --> 00:56:01.199
priority to Brad. So he wanted somebody that was looking

875
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:05.039
out for the best interests of his children allegedly, and

876
00:56:05.079 --> 00:56:09.519
I think it was simply a miscalculation on his part.

877
00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:14.440
And here's why he was enraged when he learned the

878
00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:17.360
children were allowed to speak with law enforcement with the

879
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:23.320
detectives and their counsel received an earful once he was

880
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:27.320
made aware again, you've hired an attorney to look out

881
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:32.480
for their best interests. Their mother was murdered, and you

882
00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:37.880
are certainly a person of interest, sir, and they are

883
00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:43.920
a key component of your alibi for that evening. Yeah,

884
00:56:43.960 --> 00:56:48.039
how exactly did you think that law enforcement wasn't going

885
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:49.360
to speak to them?

886
00:56:49.719 --> 00:56:51.920
I wonder if he thought, like the attorney would like

887
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.360
tell them what to say or like speak for them

888
00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:57.320
as I wonder if that's why he wanted an attorney

889
00:56:57.320 --> 00:56:58.519
for them. I don't know.

890
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:03.199
Interesting, I'm glad they got to talk. Holy shit, you're

891
00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:06.079
gonna be so glad. You're gonna be so fucking glad.

892
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:10.719
The prosecution argued that Cheryl's death had not been an accident,

893
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:15.039
but a murder disguised this one. They presented evidence about

894
00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:21.039
the nature of Cheryl's injuries, which were numerous and fucking horrific.

895
00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:25.159
She was literally beaten to death, and also who was

896
00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:28.000
driving the car if she was in the passenger seat, Like,

897
00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:30.239
where's that person in this whole scenario?

898
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:35.559
Yeah, mm hmm, yeah, begs the question, doesn't it that?

899
00:57:35.800 --> 00:57:36.360
Right? There?

900
00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:40.719
Is already so fucking suspicious, Like you did not think

901
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:45.880
this through. And they also presented evidence about the circumstances

902
00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:53.079
surrounding the crash, such as the fact that the ambiguous, anonymous,

903
00:57:53.559 --> 00:57:57.360
unknown driver of Cheryl's vehicle.

904
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:04.599
Who couldn't have it was the purse convict. The purse right,

905
00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:06.400
it was a ghost.

906
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:10.000
It doesn't even make any fucking sense. You're so stupid,

907
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:14.480
You're so bad at life and crime, You're so bad

908
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:16.440
at being bad.

909
00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:19.559
You know, I don't want you to be better. I don't.

910
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:22.840
I don't wish that on any of us, but like

911
00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:26.559
it's kind of it's sad and a little insulting to

912
00:58:26.639 --> 00:58:31.239
all of our intelligence. They also emphasized the escalating conflict

913
00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:36.000
between Cheryl and Brad during the divorce and custody battle

914
00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:41.400
that was like, really, really really key to their case. Interestingly,

915
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:49.519
not surprisingly, psychiatrists testified that Brad was both paranoid and antisocial,

916
00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:57.079
as well as a narcissistic sociopath mic drop. Yeah, they

917
00:58:57.079 --> 00:58:59.039
were like, is that did we do it?

918
00:59:00.280 --> 00:59:03.400
Is he and jail yet? I feel like you just

919
00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:05.559
need the evidence of the book that he wrote, or

920
00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:08.800
the auto autobiography that he wrote.

921
00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:12.880
Yeah, autobiography really, Like, I don't know, I don't know

922
00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:15.880
if it's ethical to use that in a political capacity

923
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:19.840
to diagnose him, but it feels like, I don't know. Man.

924
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:27.800
The couple's son, Jesse, also testified, So it kind of

925
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:32.119
makes sense once you know how everything went down, why

926
00:59:32.159 --> 00:59:35.480
Brad got so fucking upset that they talked to the

927
00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:39.559
kids because the couple's son, Jesse, testified as a young boy,

928
00:59:40.039 --> 00:59:44.880
his memory of events, including critical details, was truly astonishing.

929
00:59:45.440 --> 00:59:47.920
He didn't have all of the right mouth words for

930
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:51.840
certain things. He recalled watching the Sword into Stone with

931
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:54.599
one of his brothers, while Brad claimed to have been

932
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:57.599
doing chores around the house and in their apartment building.

933
00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:02.400
Both Brad and his brother, one of his you know babies,

934
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:07.519
not his like adult man brother, were gone long enough

935
01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:12.760
for the movie to have finished while they were still gone. Wow,

936
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:17.119
so two of Brad and Cheryl's children watched a movie

937
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:22.440
while they were presumably doing chores and errands, and it finished.

938
01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:27.000
And the legal team that like walked him through all

939
01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:29.920
of this, and I'm assuming maybe there were you know,

940
01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:35.159
some consultants there that, like, you know, a child psychologist,

941
01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:39.639
the way that they walked him through, and like his

942
01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:43.920
memory was so vivid and detailed, but like, if you

943
01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:47.559
dismissed him outright because he's a child and like he

944
01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:50.760
doesn't know all the right words to say, like this

945
01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:54.199
could have gone very differently. But they said, well, how

946
01:00:54.239 --> 01:00:57.840
did you know that the movie finished? Because you know,

947
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:03.400
children are easily distracted, and he said, well, and this

948
01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:05.960
is They were using a VCR and if you don't

949
01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:09.000
know what that is, I'm sorry. You have the Google machine,

950
01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:11.440
You're just gonna have to figure it out yourself. They

951
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:14.960
were watching this movie and at the end he didn't

952
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:17.599
know how to rewind it, so it went to the

953
01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:21.559
fuzzy screen. Yeah, he said, it went to the fuzzy screen,

954
01:01:21.559 --> 01:01:23.000
and I didn't know how to fix it, so we

955
01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:28.119
just turned it off and then he went into another room.

956
01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:33.760
After that, Jesse recalled then also watching Rambo while his

957
01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:38.360
father remained away from their apartment. The legal team worked

958
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:43.079
carefully to communicate on his level to parse out the

959
01:01:43.199 --> 01:01:47.599
incredible level, level of depth of his memory that evening.

960
01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:50.599
As a juror, it had to seem just like a

961
01:01:50.639 --> 01:01:55.119
complete fucking torpedo to Brad's alibi of having been home

962
01:01:55.119 --> 01:01:57.760
with the boys that evening at the time of Cheryl's death.

963
01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:01.199
I can't recall off the top my head how old

964
01:02:01.239 --> 01:02:04.840
this child was, but I will say I got really

965
01:02:04.880 --> 01:02:06.840
nervous in the book.

966
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:08.880
I was like, oh my god, how old is he?

967
01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:13.519
Because they said Jesse was asked, well, what day was

968
01:02:13.519 --> 01:02:16.320
that was that Saturday? And he said I don't know

969
01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:20.239
the days, like he didn't know days of the week.

970
01:02:21.280 --> 01:02:26.159
What they did was they literally drew out a diagram. Okay,

971
01:02:26.199 --> 01:02:29.960
so these days you go to school, right, and we

972
01:02:30.079 --> 01:02:34.719
don't have to know anything about Monday through Friday. That's fine, okay.

973
01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:36.159
And this day you go to.

974
01:02:36.159 --> 01:02:39.440
Soccer and on these days you see your daddy, and

975
01:02:39.480 --> 01:02:40.519
these are the weekends.

976
01:02:40.679 --> 01:02:42.000
And it wasn't leading.

977
01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:45.719
It was just meeting him where he was at in

978
01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:48.119
terms of like language skills, and it.

979
01:02:48.280 --> 01:02:50.239
Just, yeah, that's so smart.

980
01:02:50.679 --> 01:02:54.039
I was like, he's so little. He doesn't really like

981
01:02:54.559 --> 01:02:59.320
understand Saturday or Sunday. And I'm like, oh, kids, someday

982
01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:01.519
they're gonna be so critical to you. You can't even

983
01:03:01.519 --> 01:03:08.639
imagine his younger brother that was supposedly out running errands

984
01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:12.800
and doing chores with Brad. My understanding is they never

985
01:03:12.880 --> 01:03:16.639
really could get him to talk about the events of

986
01:03:16.639 --> 01:03:19.960
that evening with anyone. It sounds like he was younger.

987
01:03:20.079 --> 01:03:22.480
I believe he was only like four years old, and

988
01:03:22.519 --> 01:03:27.280
he would hide under the table when they tried to

989
01:03:27.320 --> 01:03:30.440
talk to him, and he cried a lot. I don't

990
01:03:30.440 --> 01:03:34.800
know if they've ever determined, you know, in later years,

991
01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:39.920
what he might have seen or understood about the events

992
01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:43.679
of that evening. But like suffice to say, he was

993
01:03:43.719 --> 01:03:47.679
not going to be useful as a witness. I'm not

994
01:03:47.719 --> 01:03:52.000
an expert, but it seems like clearly whatever he went

995
01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:55.480
through or was still going through because he had lost

996
01:03:55.480 --> 01:03:59.280
his mom, Like, this kid was so traumatized and it's

997
01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:00.719
such a tender age at.

998
01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:03.639
Four, like his brain might not even like let him

999
01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:05.559
remember that. Yeah.

1000
01:04:05.599 --> 01:04:09.199
I just I feel like at certain ages, and depending

1001
01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:11.480
on the kid, there are just things that like even

1002
01:04:11.559 --> 01:04:14.599
if you saw or heard, I'm not sure that your

1003
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:19.239
brain will always let you like recall those memories. And

1004
01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:21.199
you just know you don't want to talk about it.

1005
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:25.199
And it's scary and it's sad. Poor baby, I know,

1006
01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:28.360
And I really, I mean, I hope for his sake

1007
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:32.519
that like he's just upset because he doesn't have his mommy,

1008
01:04:32.679 --> 01:04:35.079
and you know, who are these people and why are

1009
01:04:35.079 --> 01:04:36.480
they asking me these questions?

1010
01:04:36.519 --> 01:04:40.199
But okay, I'm not crying. You're crying. I don't know

1011
01:04:40.239 --> 01:04:43.599
why you always say that, crying to thank you for

1012
01:04:43.639 --> 01:04:45.880
this not a holiday week?

1013
01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:49.079
I know. Wait, it's all, oh yeah, it is a holiday.

1014
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:51.519
Oh the song of my people? How come you get

1015
01:04:52.960 --> 01:04:56.360
the defense counter that the prosecution's case relied too heavily

1016
01:04:56.400 --> 01:05:02.599
on speculation and circumstantial evidence without a direct eyewitness to

1017
01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:06.119
the crime. They argued the evidence was insufficient to prove

1018
01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:09.480
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, which I would say, the

1019
01:05:09.519 --> 01:05:12.480
testimony of your own goddamn kid, I think pretty much

1020
01:05:12.519 --> 01:05:15.639
wiped out any doubt that I had, But that's just me.

1021
01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:21.960
Witnesses testified about the couple's relationship, and investigators explained how

1022
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:25.480
the case had developed, and there were a lot of

1023
01:05:25.559 --> 01:05:27.079
people that touched.

1024
01:05:26.719 --> 01:05:27.519
On this case.

1025
01:05:28.239 --> 01:05:32.360
Hearing the accounts of people that reported to the scene

1026
01:05:32.519 --> 01:05:37.880
that was a rough, rough discovery. Experts discussed the evidence

1027
01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:41.280
surrounding the crash scene. Ultimately, the jury was asked to

1028
01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:46.159
weigh the prosecution's narrative against the defense's claims of reasonable doubt.

1029
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:52.760
After deliberations, the jury returned its verdict. Bradley Morris Cunningham

1030
01:05:53.559 --> 01:05:55.039
was found guilty of murder.

1031
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:56.519
Thank god.

1032
01:05:57.280 --> 01:06:00.000
I don't know what I would have done if I'm

1033
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:02.599
I probably I don't know if I would have come

1034
01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:05.239
across this case if he hadn't been convicted.

1035
01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:07.519
Who knows. You scared me though, for a minute by

1036
01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:11.199
saying what you said about the circumstantial evidence.

1037
01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:14.840
I think the prosecution team was a little bit fearful

1038
01:06:15.039 --> 01:06:16.960
and ment I mean they went to bat for this,

1039
01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:21.800
and having the testimony of a child be such like

1040
01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:25.679
a that's like a heavy hitter in this case, Like

1041
01:06:25.719 --> 01:06:28.760
that's got to be a little bit nerve wracking. It

1042
01:06:28.840 --> 01:06:32.760
went against Brad's alibi and that was that was the

1043
01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:37.440
critical strike. Following the verdict, Brad Cunningham was admitted to

1044
01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:41.559
the Oregon State Penitentiary on January ninth, nineteen ninety five,

1045
01:06:42.039 --> 01:06:46.400
where he began serving a life sentence. Cheryl Keaton was

1046
01:06:46.440 --> 01:06:49.639
a lawyer, a mother, and a woman whose life ended

1047
01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:53.000
far too soon. She was laid to rest at Bunker

1048
01:06:53.079 --> 01:06:57.360
Hill Cemetery in Cowlitz County, Washington. And it breaks my

1049
01:06:57.440 --> 01:07:00.239
heart and I hate to do this right at the end,

1050
01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:04.920
but there's not a better place to put this in

1051
01:07:05.000 --> 01:07:10.280
terms of linear storytelling. So some final sad details that

1052
01:07:10.360 --> 01:07:12.679
serve as a reminder to all of us perhaps to

1053
01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:17.039
have our affairs in order, because everyone's final wishes should

1054
01:07:17.039 --> 01:07:22.280
be respected. Cheryl wanted to be cremated, but the retelling

1055
01:07:22.519 --> 01:07:25.920
is that one of her paternal aunts raised a fuss

1056
01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:30.519
because they were Southern Baptists, and they don't cremate people.

1057
01:07:31.559 --> 01:07:35.559
So she was buried her aunt. Yep, what do you

1058
01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:38.039
would say to you, how over someone's life.

1059
01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:40.800
I honestly, I can't believe it.

1060
01:07:40.920 --> 01:07:43.480
She was also apparently.

1061
01:07:43.079 --> 01:07:48.400
Buried in a very garish like bright like a pink coffin,

1062
01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:54.760
and her immediate family knew that she would have hated that.

1063
01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:57.039
She didn't want to be buried in the first place,

1064
01:07:57.079 --> 01:08:01.800
but it was a ridiculous recept to go for her

1065
01:08:02.199 --> 01:08:03.360
final resting place.

1066
01:08:04.039 --> 01:08:05.199
I don't understand.

1067
01:08:05.679 --> 01:08:10.760
Things are always rough when it's family. But her mother, however,

1068
01:08:11.400 --> 01:08:15.039
put her foot down about a viewing, knowing that Cheryl

1069
01:08:15.079 --> 01:08:18.600
would not have wanted that, I think, particularly based on

1070
01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:21.920
how she died. And you know, they can do a

1071
01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:25.560
lot of really incredible things, but a viewing just would

1072
01:08:25.600 --> 01:08:26.319
have been.

1073
01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:28.239
Really really hard.

1074
01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:34.680
Yeah, really really difficult in this case, and it actually

1075
01:08:34.760 --> 01:08:35.319
gets worse.

1076
01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:38.279
It's crazy that we just talked about this, I mean,

1077
01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:41.560
like off air, but we talked about like how traumatic, Yeah,

1078
01:08:41.600 --> 01:08:44.119
like a viewing can be, especially a child who's like

1079
01:08:44.359 --> 01:08:45.760
forced to go look.

1080
01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:48.880
Yeah, I feel like this is so much like in

1081
01:08:48.920 --> 01:08:52.760
a way, like there's no good way for somebody to

1082
01:08:52.880 --> 01:08:59.279
die and people all process that grief differently, and I

1083
01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:01.680
feel like you can try to fight it, but I

1084
01:09:01.720 --> 01:09:03.600
feel like, I think you just have to make your

1085
01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:06.359
peace with the fact that it's just it's gonna it's

1086
01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:08.600
gonna fuck you up a little bit for a minute.

1087
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:13.920
But sadly Brad and the boys did not attend Cheryl's funeral.

1088
01:09:14.479 --> 01:09:19.319
It's heartbreaking. And of course he had a ridiculous excuse

1089
01:09:19.479 --> 01:09:23.840
about not being informed by the family, and he said,

1090
01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:27.760
you know, besides, the cemetery was just so difficult to find.

1091
01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:30.159
But he didn't know about it, but he tried to

1092
01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:31.119
find the cemetery.

1093
01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:35.600
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, get your fucking story straight. And of

1094
01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:39.960
course this was long before you know, the civil and

1095
01:09:40.000 --> 01:09:45.319
then eventual criminal proceedings, So it's like, what what could

1096
01:09:45.319 --> 01:09:45.880
they do.

1097
01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:49.439
That is so telling, Like, oh, I wasn't aware of

1098
01:09:49.520 --> 01:09:53.479
this funeral, but I couldn't find the cemetery.

1099
01:09:54.039 --> 01:09:59.199
He's just such a fucking pathological player. And I don't know,

1100
01:09:59.439 --> 01:10:02.720
I mean, they may it sound like the way that

1101
01:10:02.800 --> 01:10:06.520
he said it was like maybe he had attended a

1102
01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:09.640
funeral there and just already knew, like, oh, this place

1103
01:10:09.680 --> 01:10:12.199
is just so hard to find. It's just like you

1104
01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:13.039
found it once.

1105
01:10:12.920 --> 01:10:15.520
Before, Yeah, but even exactly.

1106
01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:17.239
But even if that were the case, it's like, Okay,

1107
01:10:17.279 --> 01:10:19.960
well clearly you had at some point, you know, found

1108
01:10:19.960 --> 01:10:20.399
it before.

1109
01:10:20.479 --> 01:10:23.720
So I don't know what to tell you. But the children,

1110
01:10:24.279 --> 01:10:25.039
as well as.

1111
01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:29.039
Cheryl and her family certainly deserved better. But true to

1112
01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:34.479
the psychiatrist's assessments, Brad really was just a selfish liar

1113
01:10:34.880 --> 01:10:38.960
from start to finish to some people, like funerals don't

1114
01:10:39.039 --> 01:10:44.439
carry the same meaning as other people. But I can't

1115
01:10:44.439 --> 01:10:48.079
even imagine having that choice taken away from me and

1116
01:10:48.119 --> 01:10:50.159
by the person that took her.

1117
01:10:50.560 --> 01:10:52.680
Oh wait for me, Like, I feel like it was

1118
01:10:52.680 --> 01:10:56.199
probably important for the kids to be there, and he just.

1119
01:10:56.159 --> 01:10:59.039
Wanted to pull the wole over everyone's eyes, but like,

1120
01:10:59.239 --> 01:11:03.920
especially there, even though he knew that it wasn't a

1121
01:11:03.960 --> 01:11:08.159
traffic accident, he told them. He told the kids that

1122
01:11:08.279 --> 01:11:08.840
what it was.

1123
01:11:08.840 --> 01:11:09.720
That's what it was.

1124
01:11:10.279 --> 01:11:13.640
Wow, Which is another thing that's like so telling is

1125
01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:16.880
like you asked if it was a traffic accident and

1126
01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:19.840
then you tell your kids that after law enforcement tells

1127
01:11:19.880 --> 01:11:23.079
you know, that's not what it was. Like you really

1128
01:11:23.199 --> 01:11:28.039
do have to be a sociopath a narcissist because you're

1129
01:11:28.079 --> 01:11:29.079
not thinking.

1130
01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:32.840
About what that does to your kids. Yeah, because then

1131
01:11:32.840 --> 01:11:35.680
they're going to have to find out later like that

1132
01:11:35.680 --> 01:11:39.359
that's not what happened. And you know, my dad lied

1133
01:11:39.399 --> 01:11:42.119
to me. And even if he didn't have anything, even

1134
01:11:42.159 --> 01:11:44.079
if he wasn't conrested.

1135
01:11:44.239 --> 01:11:47.880
Exactly exactly, even if he wasn't the person that killed her,

1136
01:11:48.239 --> 01:11:51.800
that's just so hurtful. And I know that, Like it's

1137
01:11:51.880 --> 01:11:55.680
tough to find, you know, the age appropriate words to

1138
01:11:55.800 --> 01:11:59.479
explain things to kids sometimes, but like that's just lying,

1139
01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:01.199
You're just lying.

1140
01:12:02.039 --> 01:12:05.720
Should we try to bust out the taro real quick? Yeah,

1141
01:12:05.800 --> 01:12:08.159
let's do some tero. I did have one more thing

1142
01:12:08.239 --> 01:12:11.359
to say about her. She's on the other side, and

1143
01:12:11.520 --> 01:12:14.840
I hope she doesn't, like really care about how she

1144
01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:17.319
was buried and stuff, you know, like, I hope she's

1145
01:12:17.439 --> 01:12:20.560
just at peace with whatever happened down there, And.

1146
01:12:21.279 --> 01:12:23.600
You know what, to be honest, I would be haunting

1147
01:12:23.680 --> 01:12:27.199
the shit out of that an. I was wanting peace

1148
01:12:27.279 --> 01:12:30.359
for her soul, Caitlin, I know, but you know what,

1149
01:12:30.560 --> 01:12:33.640
you can have peace within your own soul but not

1150
01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:36.000
wish for it for other people.

1151
01:12:36.239 --> 01:12:37.680
I think I think I can.

1152
01:12:38.039 --> 01:12:41.239
I think I contain magnitudes and I think that I

1153
01:12:41.279 --> 01:12:45.560
can hold space for being at peace within myself, but

1154
01:12:45.640 --> 01:12:47.920
also wishing you the fucking worst.

1155
01:12:49.279 --> 01:12:57.840
Wow. What deck are you using? PNW? You know it

1156
01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:05.119
the nasty PNW? Oh did you have a popper? I did?

1157
01:13:05.239 --> 01:13:07.760
And you know what's weird is it didn't like pop

1158
01:13:07.840 --> 01:13:12.039
out and fly away. It just like as I was like,

1159
01:13:12.159 --> 01:13:14.239
I don't know what you call that folding the deck

1160
01:13:14.319 --> 01:13:18.720
back in, it like popped out to where all of

1161
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:22.920
the other ones were, like the backside of the card.

1162
01:13:23.079 --> 01:13:28.560
That one flipped just flipped itself within the refolding deck

1163
01:13:29.079 --> 01:13:30.600
with the image side out.

1164
01:13:30.800 --> 01:13:33.640
I mean to me, that's saying something I think.

1165
01:13:33.720 --> 01:13:38.319
So, okay, I'm gonna give her one more shift. Okay,

1166
01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:43.239
I'm a sprey this one I am. And then let's

1167
01:13:43.319 --> 01:13:48.520
talk about what section of the deck we're feeling. So

1168
01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:52.640
I have the deck running like the length of my keyboard.

1169
01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:54.520
So do you want me to just run my fingers

1170
01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:55.680
along and we can.

1171
01:13:55.880 --> 01:14:00.399
Do about five point seven five inches in to the left.

1172
01:14:00.520 --> 01:14:04.520
Okay, so from my left yeah? Oh shit, Okay, well

1173
01:14:04.520 --> 01:14:08.119
this is where everyone realizes that I'm a little less

1174
01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:12.239
certain about what five point seventy five inches.

1175
01:14:11.960 --> 01:14:16.479
And get a ruler. Yeah, okay, I'm going with my gun.

1176
01:14:16.640 --> 01:14:19.039
Oh shit, what is it?

1177
01:14:19.279 --> 01:14:21.279
I think this might be the first time we've gotten

1178
01:14:21.319 --> 01:14:26.600
this card. Really the tower, oh, the tower, I mean

1179
01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:30.439
there's a bagel. I'm g real looking tree here.

1180
01:14:30.840 --> 01:14:32.760
I was like, what is that? I can't even tell

1181
01:14:33.000 --> 01:14:35.319
the tree a redwood, it looks like it.

1182
01:14:35.479 --> 01:14:39.640
Yeah, since it's a new card, I think to us,

1183
01:14:39.720 --> 01:14:43.359
I will look in the Little Book and the like, Look.

1184
01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:44.760
I don't recall ever getting this.

1185
01:14:45.800 --> 01:14:49.039
I don't think so, which you would think, just based

1186
01:14:49.039 --> 01:14:50.199
on vibes.

1187
01:14:51.159 --> 01:14:53.960
You would think like the obvious things would pop up more.

1188
01:14:54.000 --> 01:14:57.680
But because it's because they're so obvious, like they don't like.

1189
01:14:57.720 --> 01:15:00.439
The death card means like change, we talk about it,

1190
01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:05.960
excitele and tower card is like complete upheaval of your life.

1191
01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:09.399
But like ultimately for the better is how I feel

1192
01:15:09.399 --> 01:15:13.640
about it. But yeah, yeah, it could have other meanings.

1193
01:15:14.359 --> 01:15:16.319
Okay, I'm going to read from the Little Book and

1194
01:15:16.319 --> 01:15:19.399
then I'll go to our main interpretation. Good.

1195
01:15:19.760 --> 01:15:23.760
I love these little interpretations. They're so poetic. I do too.

1196
01:15:25.079 --> 01:15:35.159
This is a Douglas fir Oh Okay, I was wrong. Crisis, destruction, ruin, chaos, collapse, trauma, devastation,

1197
01:15:35.760 --> 01:15:41.239
sudden change, trauma. A spark catches, and the tinder dry

1198
01:15:41.720 --> 01:15:45.239
forest flares up like a matchhead. A wave of heat

1199
01:15:45.439 --> 01:15:47.960
and fleeing wildlife precedes the spread.

1200
01:15:48.399 --> 01:15:50.479
It's a tree on fire. That's why I thought it

1201
01:15:50.520 --> 01:15:51.479
looked red to me.

1202
01:15:52.319 --> 01:15:54.960
The way that the image looks to me is that

1203
01:15:55.039 --> 01:15:59.199
it's a tree kind of in the foreground of an

1204
01:15:59.239 --> 01:16:00.960
approaching fire.

1205
01:16:01.239 --> 01:16:03.560
Oh ooh that imagery too.

1206
01:16:04.159 --> 01:16:06.880
Yes, that makes it even harder to see. And I

1207
01:16:06.960 --> 01:16:10.000
will say symbolically it makes that much more sense for

1208
01:16:10.279 --> 01:16:10.840
this case.

1209
01:16:11.199 --> 01:16:13.399
It's kind of like you said, like everyone kind of

1210
01:16:13.439 --> 01:16:16.960
saw it coming, but maybe it was like blocked out

1211
01:16:17.079 --> 01:16:20.800
by what they I don't know, wanted to see instead.

1212
01:16:22.239 --> 01:16:25.000
I mean, you can see something coming, but it's like

1213
01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:28.600
at the same time, especially, I feel like in the eighties,

1214
01:16:28.680 --> 01:16:33.560
it's like there just were not as many laws enacted

1215
01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:39.399
to protect women and children in these instances. And it's

1216
01:16:39.479 --> 01:16:42.640
already it's so tricky, it's so messy when you're going

1217
01:16:42.640 --> 01:16:44.720
through a divorce and you're going through, you.

1218
01:16:44.680 --> 01:16:45.840
Know, a custody battle.

1219
01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:50.319
It's just so unfortunate because it is so foreseeable in

1220
01:16:50.359 --> 01:16:54.319
this case, but also like it feels like so out

1221
01:16:54.399 --> 01:17:01.079
of anyone's control at the same time. Yeah, because of that, Okay, Nests,

1222
01:17:01.399 --> 01:17:06.520
dens and roosts burn, Millions of homes are engulfed, Millions

1223
01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:10.760
of lives, plant and animal are sacrificed in fire. Nothing

1224
01:17:10.800 --> 01:17:15.640
will be the same after the cataclysm, but destruction doesn't

1225
01:17:15.680 --> 01:17:21.479
mean conclusion. Life returns after a fire in time, and

1226
01:17:21.520 --> 01:17:25.920
sometimes a towering giant even survives the burn. They carry

1227
01:17:25.960 --> 01:17:29.600
the scars and twist around the damage, but they keep growing.

1228
01:17:30.199 --> 01:17:32.479
Just reminds me of everyone who is left behind, the

1229
01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:33.800
children and the family.

1230
01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:39.079
Well, and specifically when it transitions to talking about nests dens,

1231
01:17:39.640 --> 01:17:43.439
it's like that is like the language around that very

1232
01:17:43.479 --> 01:17:49.680
specifically refers to, you know, the young. The tower keywords

1233
01:17:49.720 --> 01:17:55.119
are change, freedom, upsets, destruction of the old.

1234
01:17:55.960 --> 01:17:59.079
The tower usually depicts a fortress.

1235
01:17:58.680 --> 01:18:02.640
Like structure, some to those remaining from medieval times in

1236
01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:07.000
parts of Europe, being destroyed by fire or lightning. In

1237
01:18:07.039 --> 01:18:10.640
some decks, the tower's crown is being blown off by

1238
01:18:10.640 --> 01:18:15.520
the fiery impact. The blast catapults human figures out of

1239
01:18:15.560 --> 01:18:18.640
the windows, like the Death Card and the Devil. The

1240
01:18:18.680 --> 01:18:21.359
tower tends to engender fear when it comes up in

1241
01:18:21.399 --> 01:18:25.399
a reading. However, the tower does not necessarily represent ruin

1242
01:18:25.560 --> 01:18:30.439
and devastation, although its appearance usually does Harald's swift and

1243
01:18:30.520 --> 01:18:36.680
dramatic change, sometimes shocking and extremely upsetting change. Many people

1244
01:18:36.720 --> 01:18:41.359
interpret the tower as signifying catastrophe, but whatever disruption or

1245
01:18:41.399 --> 01:18:44.920
destruction it heralds is ultimately for the best.

1246
01:18:45.560 --> 01:18:48.199
Or maybe not. Sometimes in this case, if you're drawing,

1247
01:18:48.239 --> 01:18:51.279
like I feel like if you're drawing after the fact

1248
01:18:51.760 --> 01:18:54.159
and you already kind of know what happened.

1249
01:18:54.279 --> 01:18:59.439
Part of me thinks that maybe even Cheryl herself would

1250
01:18:59.479 --> 01:19:03.319
interpret things as like having worked out for the best

1251
01:19:03.359 --> 01:19:07.479
in a way because in the end, like he's behind

1252
01:19:07.520 --> 01:19:10.199
bars and he can't do this to another woman as

1253
01:19:10.199 --> 01:19:16.880
he almost certainly would, Yeah, and their children are protected

1254
01:19:16.960 --> 01:19:17.560
from him.

1255
01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:18.960
I don't know. I mean I can't.

1256
01:19:19.079 --> 01:19:24.720
I can't speak to this from you know, personal experience, really,

1257
01:19:24.800 --> 01:19:28.119
but I have to imagine that as a mom, it's

1258
01:19:28.199 --> 01:19:32.000
like good, like my kids are safe, and like in

1259
01:19:32.079 --> 01:19:35.560
the end, it's it's kind of like, you know, like

1260
01:19:35.600 --> 01:19:39.439
that's that's what would have been perhaps most important to her,

1261
01:19:39.760 --> 01:19:43.159
I mean, everything that I understand about who she was

1262
01:19:43.279 --> 01:19:47.000
as a as a person and as a mom. If

1263
01:19:47.039 --> 01:19:50.600
you can't engineer a better outcome like that, that is

1264
01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:53.800
the best that you know that you can hope for,

1265
01:19:54.159 --> 01:19:56.159
is that you know it ends here.

1266
01:19:57.079 --> 01:20:00.239
Yeah, it's interesting too that you said like the crown

1267
01:20:00.359 --> 01:20:03.000
is being destroyed and like her face was beaten.

1268
01:20:05.359 --> 01:20:08.520
When this card appears, it usually means you've ignored or

1269
01:20:08.560 --> 01:20:11.840
denied something that's rotten and needs to be blown apart.

1270
01:20:12.359 --> 01:20:16.119
You're probably surprised, but you shouldn't be. You knew changes

1271
01:20:16.159 --> 01:20:20.279
were necessary, but you refuse to take action. Then something happens,

1272
01:20:20.800 --> 01:20:25.680
losing a job, the end of a relationship, an accident,

1273
01:20:25.840 --> 01:20:30.520
a financial setback that forces you to face reality big time.

1274
01:20:31.239 --> 01:20:34.479
Your life is collapsing around you, but that old, worn

1275
01:20:34.479 --> 01:20:38.039
out structure had to go. The tower demands you free

1276
01:20:38.039 --> 01:20:42.800
yourself from the self created fortress in which you've imprisoned yourself.

1277
01:20:43.640 --> 01:20:46.279
In the wake of the chaos, a new order can grow.

1278
01:20:47.039 --> 01:20:49.600
In a reading about money, this card heralds a major

1279
01:20:49.720 --> 01:20:55.600
change in your finances. I will say, Bradley's finances look

1280
01:20:56.079 --> 01:21:01.399
very different now, right, and perhaps you, from your attachment

1281
01:21:01.439 --> 01:21:05.880
to wealth, status, possessions, and the related responsibilities, he got

1282
01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:08.760
cut off. If the reading is about your work, the

1283
01:21:08.840 --> 01:21:11.840
tower may represent a sudden job loss or change in

1284
01:21:11.840 --> 01:21:15.239
your workplace. Yes, you're shocked and feel the rug's been

1285
01:21:15.239 --> 01:21:17.520
pulled out from under you. But this may be exactly

1286
01:21:17.640 --> 01:21:20.039
what you need to escape the walls that trapped you.

1287
01:21:21.039 --> 01:21:23.800
In a reading about love, this card suggests you need

1288
01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:28.520
to overthrow false ideas, old habit patterns, and outdated ways

1289
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:32.319
of relating to a partner, Like do you by chance

1290
01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:37.960
hate women and as a result treat them like abject trash?

1291
01:21:38.039 --> 01:21:41.399
A breakup or major change in a relationship is necessary

1292
01:21:41.760 --> 01:21:46.479
an eminent wominent. I feel like it's really interesting that

1293
01:21:46.560 --> 01:21:51.800
it talks about very specifically, like you knew changes were necessary,

1294
01:21:51.880 --> 01:21:53.840
but you refuse to take action, Like.

1295
01:21:53.880 --> 01:21:57.279
You knew what you were doing was wrong, like Brad new.

1296
01:21:57.560 --> 01:22:01.840
Yeah, as much as anyone like Brad can know or care,

1297
01:22:02.600 --> 01:22:08.279
arguably you know, maybe he can't. But like, even if

1298
01:22:08.279 --> 01:22:12.760
you don't understand, like ethically, morally, or like have an

1299
01:22:12.760 --> 01:22:16.159
emotional connection to why what you're doing is wrong, you

1300
01:22:16.199 --> 01:22:19.880
can't understand that it's legally wrong. It's so funny to

1301
01:22:19.920 --> 01:22:23.960
me how someone who is a narcissist and clearly thinks

1302
01:22:24.000 --> 01:22:29.960
the world of themselves can be so stupid and do

1303
01:22:30.119 --> 01:22:35.960
such stupid things, such evil things, in such a stupid way.

1304
01:22:35.960 --> 01:22:39.640
That like you are literally your own downfall.

1305
01:22:39.479 --> 01:22:40.880
You're your own tower card.

1306
01:22:41.399 --> 01:22:45.239
Yeah, that is the vibe, like, yeah, you lit the

1307
01:22:45.279 --> 01:22:49.880
match that started this fire, and I hope you.

1308
01:22:49.840 --> 01:22:53.079
Burn the imagery too. Of fire is just like a

1309
01:22:53.520 --> 01:22:56.279
It's what you think of when someone is like angry,

1310
01:22:56.359 --> 01:23:01.800
like hot headed, like impulsive. Absolutely, what was the other card?

1311
01:23:01.800 --> 01:23:04.960
I'm curious? It was the Five of Swords.

1312
01:23:05.239 --> 01:23:08.279
Damn What can I say? When it picks up the vibe,

1313
01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:16.000
It picks up the goddamn vibe. Keywords are change, adjustment, loss, destruction, conflict, indecision,

1314
01:23:16.119 --> 01:23:20.119
and sadness. The Five of Swords symbolizes the devastation of

1315
01:23:20.159 --> 01:23:23.920
war and recommends using diplomacy to resolve problems.

1316
01:23:24.199 --> 01:23:25.239
Yeah, and sod to murdery.

1317
01:23:25.800 --> 01:23:30.840
After a battle, Finger Bunnies, you realize fighting isn't the

1318
01:23:30.880 --> 01:23:34.479
best way to settle disputes. The cost of winning may

1319
01:23:34.520 --> 01:23:38.600
not be worth the losses you've endured. In a reading

1320
01:23:38.600 --> 01:23:42.319
about money, this card represents disputes over money, perhaps in

1321
01:23:42.399 --> 01:23:46.039
illegal matter. It also warns that even if you quote

1322
01:23:46.119 --> 01:23:51.439
unquote win, you may suffer. Try to resolve differences without

1323
01:23:52.199 --> 01:23:56.079
drawing swords. In a reading about love, this card says

1324
01:23:56.439 --> 01:23:59.760
you won't get what you want by arguing hurtful words

1325
01:23:59.800 --> 01:24:03.880
can be taken back. Try to resolve problems amicably, honestly

1326
01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:07.159
and fairly. You may have to make some changes in

1327
01:24:07.279 --> 01:24:10.760
order to improve a situation. I mean, you know what,

1328
01:24:11.079 --> 01:24:13.600
no takesia back seats in this situation either.

1329
01:24:14.239 --> 01:24:17.600
I just feel like all of these shitty dudes like

1330
01:24:17.800 --> 01:24:20.920
need well sometimes shitty women too, but like they all

1331
01:24:21.000 --> 01:24:24.479
needed a tarot reading before they did what they did

1332
01:24:24.720 --> 01:24:26.560
to be like, look, it's not going to work out

1333
01:24:26.600 --> 01:24:27.079
good for you.

1334
01:24:27.479 --> 01:24:31.199
Yeah, yeah, I mean, or you could just watch some

1335
01:24:31.239 --> 01:24:35.880
forensic files and they could tell you, you know, Like.

1336
01:24:37.800 --> 01:24:40.560
I just I'm like, nobody is going to tell you

1337
01:24:40.720 --> 01:24:44.159
that this is, you know, a good idea. Have a

1338
01:24:44.239 --> 01:24:49.239
creepyst day. Well, see you next Thursday. Unless you're cunting

1339
01:24:49.279 --> 01:24:53.600
Ham convict, not counting Ham. We need a gavel sound

1340
01:24:54.039 --> 01:24:59.720
honestly though, gosh, I don't know why.

1341
01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:02.760
I just suddenly was looking around me like do I

1342
01:25:02.800 --> 01:25:05.199
have a hammer. I'm like the same thing, right.

1343
01:25:06.039 --> 01:25:10.560
Yeah, I mean kind of. No, just be careful where

1344
01:25:10.560 --> 01:25:11.199
you're hammering.